Just because you are against any improvement, censorship is not the way. It hasn't been "bumped" up "again and again". There was a robust discussion here while the thread was new last week. Then, I added a valid suggestion when I got a new idea yesterday. No one checks the "Ideas and suggestions" page. More exposure is better. I don't see you asking for discussions you agree with, such as the health bar thread, to be similarly censored.
As an addition to my original post, I wonder if the following could be implemented:
Once both commanders are in position, can we have a short timeout before the match actually begins? Make it 20-30 seconds. Then each team's comm can at least verbally tell his team what to focus on, decide who's going gorge, who's going to build in base, who the rookie should follow around, splits, etc. etc. without any time from the crucial early game being wasted as happens currently.
Yep this is true, the way it works now with the all talk enabled even 2-3 second after the match started it's impossible to discuss a plan without the other team knowing about it.
As an addition to my original post, I wonder if the following could be implemented:
Once both commanders are in position, can we have a short timeout before the match actually begins? Make it 20-30 seconds. Then each team's comm can at least verbally tell his team what to focus on, decide who's going gorge, who's going to build in base, who the rookie should follow around, splits, etc. etc. without any time from the crucial early game being wasted as happens currently.
Yep this is true, the way it works now with the all talk enabled even 2-3 second after the match started it's impossible to discuss a plan without the other team knowing about it.
Yeah exactly. Good point about all-talk while the 2-3 second countdown is going on! It's fun, but I think once everyone is ready, there should be a longer period to discuss tactics and strategy.
As an addition to my original post, I wonder if the following could be implemented:
Once both commanders are in position, can we have a short timeout before the match actually begins? Make it 20-30 seconds. Then each team's comm can at least verbally tell his team what to focus on, decide who's going gorge, who's going to build in base, who the rookie should follow around, splits, etc. etc. without any time from the crucial early game being wasted as happens currently.
Yep this is true, the way it works now with the all talk enabled even 2-3 second after the match started it's impossible to discuss a plan without the other team knowing about it.
All talk is done with mods, Talk to the server operator to get this fixed.
Also, @SupaDupaNoodle server operators can use shine to do exactly what you want. Talk to the server operators.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
We already wait forever sometimes for a commander.. i really dont want to wait another forced 30 seconds to plan, as not every comm is communicative, nor is every team.
A good comm will speak right away and say "only 1 gorge please, need tunnel here, going X hive" etc.
20-30 seconds extra won't really do much to the game! You can make it 15 seconds even.
As Revan says, a little bit extra time would be useful to plan game strategies.
I see it's a server side thing, but I think an enforced pre-game where we can discuss matters would be useful. At least until some fixed objectives can be implemented.
Don't see how such a change could have any negative effect on the game, given the dire straits it is in currently.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
Well, I actually made the time to watch the tutorial... and gosh I really thought the NS2 Tutorial would have a bit more content... It was hard enough to teach the NS1 players to just get the basics of NS1... but with this tiny tutorial its no wonder people are having hard times to still grasp the basics of the tactical concept.
Well a short configurable serverside timer would be nice.. but 5 seconds should usually be more then enough..
A good comm will speak right away and say "only 1 gorge please, need tunnel here, going X hive" etc.
And then, everyone will do as they please. lol
lol, and providing he can make his voice prevail over 3 or 4 grunts that have their own idea about what the team should do !
Edit: To be fair, the best comms are those who can actually take over on pubs, and they are never the ones who rants rages and blame their team ! When it happens, it so beautiful I could cry.
A good comm will speak right away and say "only 1 gorge please, need tunnel here, going X hive" etc.
And then, everyone will do as they please. lol
lol, and providing he can make his voice prevail over 3 or 4 grunts that have their own idea about what the team should do !
Edit: To be fair, the best comms are those who can actually take over on pubs, and they are never the ones who rants rages and blame their team ! When it happens, it so beautiful I could cry.
To be fair if people listen to the comm he generally won't rant rage and throw blame...
But when you hold flight, crevice, atrium, cross, comp lab, and sub on summit, and you tell your team multiple times to just hold what you have.. Then they all push into data and die at once and it results in losing the entire map... Uhh yeah. A little rage and blame is warranted (especially when they blame the comm)
If they had just held what we had like the comm said, it would've been an easy win with a good comm that led the team to victory..
But of course the team ignoring the commanders orders = bad comm...
I have to ask. Are there any multiplayer games with good tutorials? And hey, a certain game we are taking notes from teaches you to look, move, jump, use your weapon (left click and right click), abilities and outlines an objective. Afterwards, you can press F1 to get a very abbreviated explanation of how other characters work.
Not that we should compare downwards, but I appreciate both the current and previous NS2 tutorial more after that experience. Its still inadequate, but hey, that other tutorial didn't teach you anything you can't learn from opening your options and looking at your bindings.
What they all have in common however, is a lengthy story-driven campaign on huge budgets. That's how you make a good tutorial, and it's probably not very feasible in this game.
Thing is SC2 single-player experience has basically no use in playing on ladder.
All I am suggesting is small tweaks to try and at least spell out what you are generally meant to be doing.
Can't always expect a decent comm, and can't always have helpful team mates.
Thing is SC2 single-player experience has basically no use in playing on ladder.
All I am suggesting is small tweaks to try and at least spell out what you are generally meant to be doing.
Can't always expect a decent comm, and can't always have helpful team mates.
I'm not expecting tutorials to teach meta but to fully explain your abilities and objectives. For example, you shouldn't have rookies asking you what does metabolise do over and over again. Or spike structures when they are right next to them. You don't have to teach things like 2 bites + 1 parasite kills marines without armour upgrades.
*It just occurred to me, but for unarmoured structures, do you achieve better dps biting or spiking when you are next to them?
What they all have in common however, is a lengthy story-driven campaign on huge budgets. That's how you make a good tutorial, and it's probably not very feasible in this game.
In other words, to get a good tutorial, you have to make it the bulk of the game where the multiplayer is optional. Good tutorials are that hard to achieve.
That is the new and improved tutorial. It is so much better than the old one. You can't have too long of a tutorial either.
Why not??? If there are many things to teach, the tutorial should have an appropriate length. You can split it into many different categories though, movement basics, basic strategy / tactics, combat basics, advanced tactics, skulk advanced movement etc so people can start with the basics and while gaining more experience continue with the advanced tutorials later.
I think most of the stuff like whether to bite or spike when standing next to an extractor can be learned in-game, during a match.
But things like knowing that you SHOULD be heading towards the enemy extractor in the first place should be taught in a reference guide objective list that you can easily check in-game.
To be fair if people listen to the comm he generally won't rant rage and throw blame...
You didn't understand, the best are the one people will instinctively listen to, that's what I meant by taking over. They simply have some natural autority, they don't need to rage and I maintain they are the one getting the best out of pubs.
People who are able to be firm but calm always get more attention than yelling ones.
If a commander rages at myself or other players in a match I will just toss them on ignore and do my own thing. No sense arguing with self-absorbed asshats, it's not worth the time or volume. Because seriously dude, who gets angry while playing a video game? Go see a therapist and talk out the real control-issues.
Having a few toggle-able 'modes' as commander would be nice though. Something that just automatically orders freshspawns to 'Defend' or 'Harass Res Nodes' would be useful and save me time saying the same thing over and over.
That is the new and improved tutorial. It is so much better than the old one. You can't have too long of a tutorial either.
Why not??? If there are many things to teach, the tutorial should have an appropriate length. You can split it into many different categories though, movement basics, basic strategy / tactics, combat basics, advanced tactics, skulk advanced movement etc so people can start with the basics and while gaining more experience continue with the advanced tutorials later.
As I understand it, the tutorial we have is meant to be the basic one. There were plans to make advanced movement tutorials but it seems those fell into the void.
The reason the tutorial has to be kept short is because it is partially forced. Rookies can only join rookie only servers until they play the tutorial.
That is the new and improved tutorial. It is so much better than the old one. You can't have too long of a tutorial either.
Why not??? If there are many things to teach, the tutorial should have an appropriate length. You can split it into many different categories though, movement basics, basic strategy / tactics, combat basics, advanced tactics, skulk advanced movement etc so people can start with the basics and while gaining more experience continue with the advanced tutorials later.
As I understand it, the tutorial we have is meant to be the basic one. There were plans to make advanced movement tutorials but it seems those fell into the void.
The reason the tutorial has to be kept short is because it is partially forced. Rookies can only join rookie only servers until they play the tutorial.
Yea you are right, but as I said you would not have to play every tutorial to be able to play, only the basic ones. Why would it be bad to have plenty of long advanced tutorials if they are optional? It is what would really help players learn the game.
So let's hope the tutorials didn't fall into the void.
To be fair if people listen to the comm he generally won't rant rage and throw blame...
You didn't understand, the best are the one people will instinctively listen to, that's what I meant by taking over. They simply have some natural autority, they don't need to rage and I maintain they are the one getting the best out of pubs.
People who are able to be firm but calm always get more attention than yelling ones.
I disagree. In my experience, there's people that listen, and people that don't. If you get a mixture of both, it's typical ns2. If you only get people that don't listen, it turns into a comm rage fest (if he's a communicative guy). If you get a whole team that listens, great things happen.
Listening is something that happens on the receiving end, and is NOT induced by the sender somehow.
This is coming from a lot of commanding experience.
I agree, I would rather have the advanced tutorials be thorough. Right now the best we got is the lerk and fade challenge, which is more of a safe space to try those life forms.
Did they add skulk wall jumping to the tutorial yet?
That definitely needs to be in there..(something I'm sure has been said many times) Just make them race around the map... Even better make them hold shift while they do (if you screw up the jumping while holding shift it kills your speed.. That's how i used to practice getting the timing down in pre game)
Comments
Yep this is true, the way it works now with the all talk enabled even 2-3 second after the match started it's impossible to discuss a plan without the other team knowing about it.
Yeah exactly. Good point about all-talk while the 2-3 second countdown is going on! It's fun, but I think once everyone is ready, there should be a longer period to discuss tactics and strategy.
All talk is done with mods, Talk to the server operator to get this fixed.
Also, @SupaDupaNoodle server operators can use shine to do exactly what you want. Talk to the server operators.
A good comm will speak right away and say "only 1 gorge please, need tunnel here, going X hive" etc.
And then, everyone will do as they please. lol
As Revan says, a little bit extra time would be useful to plan game strategies.
I see it's a server side thing, but I think an enforced pre-game where we can discuss matters would be useful. At least until some fixed objectives can be implemented.
Don't see how such a change could have any negative effect on the game, given the dire straits it is in currently.
Well a short configurable serverside timer would be nice.. but 5 seconds should usually be more then enough..
lol, and providing he can make his voice prevail over 3 or 4 grunts that have their own idea about what the team should do !
Edit: To be fair, the best comms are those who can actually take over on pubs, and they are never the ones who rants rages and blame their team ! When it happens, it so beautiful I could cry.
To be fair if people listen to the comm he generally won't rant rage and throw blame...
But when you hold flight, crevice, atrium, cross, comp lab, and sub on summit, and you tell your team multiple times to just hold what you have.. Then they all push into data and die at once and it results in losing the entire map... Uhh yeah. A little rage and blame is warranted (especially when they blame the comm)
If they had just held what we had like the comm said, it would've been an easy win with a good comm that led the team to victory..
But of course the team ignoring the commanders orders = bad comm...
So yeah sometimes the rage is warranted...
Not that we should compare downwards, but I appreciate both the current and previous NS2 tutorial more after that experience. Its still inadequate, but hey, that other tutorial didn't teach you anything you can't learn from opening your options and looking at your bindings.
Warcraft III
Starcraft
DooM
Call of Duty
What they all have in common however, is a lengthy story-driven campaign on huge budgets. That's how you make a good tutorial, and it's probably not very feasible in this game.
All I am suggesting is small tweaks to try and at least spell out what you are generally meant to be doing.
Can't always expect a decent comm, and can't always have helpful team mates.
I'm not expecting tutorials to teach meta but to fully explain your abilities and objectives. For example, you shouldn't have rookies asking you what does metabolise do over and over again. Or spike structures when they are right next to them. You don't have to teach things like 2 bites + 1 parasite kills marines without armour upgrades.
*It just occurred to me, but for unarmoured structures, do you achieve better dps biting or spiking when you are next to them?
In other words, to get a good tutorial, you have to make it the bulk of the game where the multiplayer is optional. Good tutorials are that hard to achieve.
Why not??? If there are many things to teach, the tutorial should have an appropriate length. You can split it into many different categories though, movement basics, basic strategy / tactics, combat basics, advanced tactics, skulk advanced movement etc so people can start with the basics and while gaining more experience continue with the advanced tutorials later.
But things like knowing that you SHOULD be heading towards the enemy extractor in the first place should be taught in a reference guide objective list that you can easily check in-game.
You didn't understand, the best are the one people will instinctively listen to, that's what I meant by taking over. They simply have some natural autority, they don't need to rage and I maintain they are the one getting the best out of pubs.
People who are able to be firm but calm always get more attention than yelling ones.
Having a few toggle-able 'modes' as commander would be nice though. Something that just automatically orders freshspawns to 'Defend' or 'Harass Res Nodes' would be useful and save me time saying the same thing over and over.
As I understand it, the tutorial we have is meant to be the basic one. There were plans to make advanced movement tutorials but it seems those fell into the void.
The reason the tutorial has to be kept short is because it is partially forced. Rookies can only join rookie only servers until they play the tutorial.
Yea you are right, but as I said you would not have to play every tutorial to be able to play, only the basic ones. Why would it be bad to have plenty of long advanced tutorials if they are optional? It is what would really help players learn the game.
So let's hope the tutorials didn't fall into the void.
I disagree. In my experience, there's people that listen, and people that don't. If you get a mixture of both, it's typical ns2. If you only get people that don't listen, it turns into a comm rage fest (if he's a communicative guy). If you get a whole team that listens, great things happen.
Listening is something that happens on the receiving end, and is NOT induced by the sender somehow.
This is coming from a lot of commanding experience.
That definitely needs to be in there..(something I'm sure has been said many times) Just make them race around the map... Even better make them hold shift while they do (if you screw up the jumping while holding shift it kills your speed.. That's how i used to practice getting the timing down in pre game)
BUT Self-explaining elements are even better.
a simple example:
you got a gun >> i can shoot.
I am a Lerk i got wings >> i can fly.
bad example:
you switch to metabolize>> are my Arms broken ?
Here a Video that explains what i mean (im a bad explainer):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM
And basically a other version of a rookiemode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6uDLDlK20c
And yet ground lerks are a thing.
Eh
https://youtu.be/KyI5q1OvplY?list=PLte4_NrKRvybyGqsHfHXNI0_EWDxJbqoJ
Exactly my point. Poor rookie