What to do with gorge tunnels now?
The_Welsh_Wizard
Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Comments
You can't drop one in the beginning of the game (this makes it really easy for Marines to do things like take nanogrid on veil)
You can't place them anywhere that isn't WAY out in the open (literally THOUSANDS of places you could put them removed in order to fix 3-5 "glitched" spots across all maps)
They are hilariously weak when dropped until they mature (a single Marine can drop one in no time flat)
Clearly that's WAY too overpowered and unbalanced! They need to be nerfed more so they cost at least 10 res to drop each side.. And tie them to biomass also so you need at least 6 biomass to get them...
/sarcasm..
They should put tunnels back to the way they were when I started playing (around 249) Back then they were actually useful.
If a minute in counts as at the start, I'd say a bit past a minute and a half in does, too.
Also, if you had 0 pres as a gorge, it now takes 60% less time to gain enough to place your tunnel.
And yea, the tunnel cost in vanilla was too high before. In comp mod though it was possible to go gorge and drop both entrances and I think it is very much needed.
FFS home, if you're going to argue about something, do your research first.
I did, comp mod tunnel cost was 3, vanilla tunnel cost is 3 now too. So the problem is pres change now. Before, the problem was that the cost was too high.
2. To give aliens the option to start with a gorge. By removing the option to drop a tunnel as the game opener you are removing one possible strat from the aliens. Less options means less depth and less fun.
Well to be fair for Aliens I don't think it's auto lose on Veil now.. it's just much harder for Aliens to win.
They have to devote a significant portion of their team to holding nano until the tunnel goes up (not to mention comm having to cyst there now) which lets Marines easily take the rest of the map without having to worry much (if at all) about defending their back RT's...
Why should it take any longer?
The typical argument seems to be "because Marines can't drop a PG at the beginning" - Though that's an extremely weak argument for an asymmetrical game like this.
But heres the thing... this isn't comp mod... vanilla has NEVER been comp mod... Gorges have had to wait for a tunnel for a LONG time... on public games, it hasn't caused any issues.
The ONLY reason people are concerned now is because comp mod, is down. well, surprise, Vanilla is balance around 8 vs 8 (ish) play with public players in mind... things are going to be different to comp mod... get used to it.
I get it, comp mod was great, it had a LOT of time to iron out balance issues while the game wasn't touched for a REALLY LONG time, it got to the point where changes had to be done with great care or the "community" would practically riot (something that has now moved across to the vanilla forums it seems.)
But the days of compmod are gone, and big changes are being made to vanilla, let the past be in the past, move on and enjoy what the future hold for NS2... or do like a lot of people did and move on... I hear overwatch is a bandwagon now.
My point was not to have an answer myself, because I don't know. I want others to elaborate why a tunnel a gorge should or should not be able to drop a tunnel at the start.
1. It is not auto lose. Veil has a 50.7% alien win rate without gorges being able to drop at the start.
2. The fun argument is difficult because that is subjective. You could take it to an extreme and say that we should allow all players to evolve any life form at any point in the game would be more fun because it allows more options. Would that be a good change? I don't think that would. I don't find this to be a compelling argument in favor of dropping gorge tunnels at the start, at least how you put it.
I think the game should try to remain asymmetrical where it can. I do agree it is also a poor argument. Making an asymmetrical mechanic for the sake of being asymmetrical is a poor idea.
Could you please elaborate further. I know you are a vocal opponent of gorges being able to drop tunnels at the start. What is the worst that could happen if gorges could drop tunnels at the start.
In my opinion, this is the most compelling argument I have seen so far for gorges being able to drop tunnels at the start. It would be a quality of life change at best. I ask you @NexZone30 is gorge tunnels being able to be dropped at the beginning of a round really worth the development time over other things that could be worked on?
Is this a massively needed change? We've survived long without it, but just in the sense of quality of life, it may be worth it. It's up for people to decide. For older players, it may mean little to no difference. However, for new players it may be a huge change. (Seriously, a lot of new players playng gorge need this change. It's so sad to see a new player die before dropping a tunnel.)
It's incredibly cheap, quick to place, easy to defend, benefits the team that is already designed to be mobile to be insanely mobile right away, and can consume marine's focus and economy to a damaging point.
Aliens can almost instantly and constantly harass marine naturals, all while marines attempt to fight off aliens pouring out (simulating the downsides of close spawns) and somehow break through the PvE that fortifies the tunnel, while losing manpower to lanes, building RTs and destroying harvesters.
It was just a skill-less drain on marine focus and economy. Making it a tiny bit longer until deployment means the area is being actively held and guarded by aliens well enough for a gorge to place it.
People forget the sole reason for moving Gorge tunnels to Biomass 1 from 6(?) was verbatim "to give Gorges more to do early on".. balance was not the reason, (nor was it entirely thought through imho) and you have just become used to relying on it as a handicap that can sometimes assist games that are difficult for aliens, (and arguably should just end) but also sometimes can be horribly unfair to marines.
Easy strategy:
1. Spread in two groups: system and west.
2. Done
If marines decided to push hard, like 5 of them on the one side, and you feel that nano probably is lost. Then just rush main. Or bite rts.
Really, guys, I'm sure that you all are already doing this while playing. All this theorizing around holding nano with/without a tunnel is unnesessary. Most people know how to do it, and succeed in it, mostly.
Do not see big problem in forcing gorges play a little more careful in early game.
Rookie gorges are doomed anyway, like avery other lifeform played by a newcomer
P.S. Just noticed, that ns2_veil is not the main subject of discussion. Sorry.
2. If you build your comms resource towers before you go to drop a tunnel he'd save res on a drifter, or 2. This would allow him to drop a crag to help you defend a point with skulks while you wait for your tunnel. Your tunnel which you would now have faster because gorges build rts faster than drifters.
3. At nano with current mechanics there's nothing stopping the comm from dropping cysts for you to build there with 2 rts and no tunnel. You could get some clogs up to help defend the point in time with skulks. The tunnels are just lazy.
4. Why do aliens even need phase gates? The game is asymmetrical.
The data does not support that aliens were dominating veil.
Only believe the statistics that you've forged personally! /Churchill (- i think)/
Public games aren't really that representative... Without proper communication you'll most probably lose.
With a decent team if aliens get hold of Nano with a good gorge and can stick to it for 5 mins, the game is practically over, provided the skills are balanced.
Although it would be foolish to balance the game based on one room in one map
"Public games aren't really that representative"... of what?
Public games are definitely representative of public play, at the very least.
[...] of balance issues.
One player can easily wreck a whole game, for eg promising to go gorge and then spending his pres on pretty flowers first instead of dropping the tunnel.
Proper matches where the players work together will give a much better overview of how well balanced the game is.
The true Scotsman is lurking, quick, spray him a generous dose of F0rdPrefect ... pscchhht pschhht ... die you sniptch !
Oh, public games are definitely representative of balance issues... of the balance issues public games have.
Of course one public match isn't representative, but we are talking about lots of data here. And thus yes, the statistics of public games definitely represent public games in every way imaginable.
I don't know what else it would be supposed to represent, really.
I like how you can just bring forth the facts with numbers and statistics in any discussion and take the wind out of somebodys sail.
The problem is, this approach doesn't work with extremists / religious people. (In this case: "UWE are always the bad guys").
The facts potentially shatter their world view so they errect walls around them in form of silly stories and then they cludge to those tightly.