[*] They allow PvE to be dropped to provide forward support so even if alien movement is revealed, marines can't waltz in a pew pew them
That's the crux of the downside to them imo.
Two gorges immediately setting up a tunnel in the nook of Club when marines spawn in Launch Control on Descent is just devastating.
The amount of PvE (20 clogs, shade, crag, whip, tunnel, all while getting healed by two gorges) is insane that early game, the difficulty and cost in removing it is all consuming, expensive and still not a guarantee, aliens are putting pressure on their naturals and their base that makes close spawns look like cake, and most of all the impact it has on Marines because they can't do what they normally would be (capping RTs, killing harvesters) is just stupidly crushing considering the ease, timing, and cost of setting it up for aliens.
I can't think of anything else that is that stupidly cheap and comes with such a massive impact, especially early on.
Maps that require an instant tunnel should just be fixed instead of relying on a bandaid that otherwise creates an imbalanced advantage elsewhere.
Keep the delay, I say. Make gorges more mobile if you have to, but good lord keep the delay.. it's really not much to require aliens at least holding that room or marines failing to lane it.
It currently takes 90 seconds to accumulate the res to drop a pair of tunnels at the start of the game- a little faster if you are quick to get your first natural RT up. We don't think this needs to be quicker at the moment (but will continue to keep an eye on it).
We're looking at making some QoL/changes to bellyslide to help improve gorge mobility a bit- hopefully this alleviates some of the concerns in this thread. A small reduction in marine sprint speed might be a possibility as well (the same .25 reduction used in compmod).
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
No one is forcing people to go gorge at the first second of the game. Even a bad skulk in an early engagement uses 9-10 bullets of a marine and that can be help.
He can die as skulk, spawn as gorge and have a 2nd tunnel by the time he gets to where hes going.
@Frozen No, no one is forcing anyone to do anything ... except yourself in the rest of your post ?
Let's adapt and try to find alternative to die as a skulk then respawn as a gorge, like going gorge first and team up with skulks to support early engagments.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited June 2016
Lol @Wake that's what I mean. You don't need to drop tunnels right away, there's other ways to support. Both examples we just said are valid examples/options of what to do in lieu of running to drop a tunnel.
I don't even think tunnels should be in the game, it was a ceappy shoehorn UWE put in removing asymmetry. If aliens were faster they wouldnt even need the parity with phase gates. But now we're stuck balancing around existing features because no one wants to waste work.
One thing you'll notice in every suggestion I throw out wherever is that they don't involve wasting other features that were already worked on, because that's lame as hell
edit: The only reason that skulk use is even viable is because of the UWE band-aid of removing "no res while dead"
Like everyone, I resist changes, despite the fact I'm an IT guy and that I am specifically dedicated to move things forward.
When tunnels appeared, I disliked it, for the reason you invoke: an assymetry killer. But I got used to it, and finally liked it.
When 250 was released, it drove me away from the game, literrally. It took monthes before I try it again and in fine, dealed with structutres you can build on infestation, JP/Exo with only one CC etc.
When I came back, I was so sorry the base shrinked like an innuit ding a ling peeing in the heart of the pole 6 months night.
When I saw large servers, I stayed away saying no way I'll get in there, i'ts not NS, it's decadence. But one evening, I eventually joined, and saw that NS could have more dimensions. I had fun, with nice people.
Derail (we have a spoiler button, can we have a derail button?): I'm upset that this subject is dividing the community, I guess that some nasty words were exchanged in the past, 294 left jailed and banned users as casualties. Like if we had too many ! It pisses me off there can be so much bitterness between a faithful metal war horse and woozever offers so much hosting since, afaik, both earned sniploads of thanks for supporting this game
Yes, we don't like changes, what we know is safe, what we don't know is unsafe.
What I believe is that it would be fatal is get back to a dead model, so better move forward than turning back.
I'll find a way to tunnel your mom !
'Though I know it's impossible to go living thru the past", Bob Marley, Natural Mystic.
Either marines need to be nerfed somehow in their insane pressure early game, or aliens need something to keep their territory more stable.
You can either have earlier gorge tunnels, or better support gorges (more mobile).
Also @IronHorse, I don't think marines should be letting gorges set up in club as a launch control start, at least not without aliens committing vast amount of lifeforms to it and leaving observation --> water treatment --> energy flow open and cyst chains neutered (thus no expansion)
Piggies would lose an important ability... in NS1 they were the [:: Builders of Chambers ::]
Restricting them to a fast builder and field medic would be boring. Maybe increase hydra + web limit?
Make hydras and webs more powerful. They're useless right now. Hydras should be a large object you can't jump over, so 3 could block a corridor. Webs should work as they did in NS1 where you can tangle a marine semi permanently if one-on-one, because they couldn't shoot. A room with 3 hydras and 3 webs currently isn't a problem for even a lone marine.
And add lerk lifting while you're at it. And let aliens run faster by default.
Piggies would lose an important ability... in NS1 they were the [:: Builders of Chambers ::]
Restricting them to a fast builder and field medic would be boring. Maybe increase hydra + web limit?
Make hydras and webs more powerful. They're useless right now. Hydras should be a large object you can't jump over, so 3 could block a corridor. Webs should work as they did in NS1 where you can tangle a marine semi permanently if one-on-one, because they couldn't shoot. A room with 3 hydras and 3 webs currently isn't a problem for even a lone marine.
And add lerk lifting while you're at it. And let aliens run faster by default.
Agree that webs and hydras should be a little stronger... Maybe not something that could block marines from jumping over though (such things also block other aliens) plus hydras already block gunfire...
When I gorge I use hydras rarely and I never rely on them for anything other than a momentary distraction or early warning system of sorts... They could stand to have just a little bit more damage or health. (not both)
Webs are useless right now.. Basically just used for the brief parasite they offer.. They should slow by at least 50% imo.. After all they are webs....
Lerk lift would be awesome even if it was just a biomass 9 ability for strafing gorge+lerk bile runs to serve as a game ender..
And no to faster skulks. They're already fast enough (Especially with celerity)
Hydras aren't useless, it'd be cool if they buffed them. People really just need to learn how to use hydras effectively. Webs definitely need a buff though...
Hydras aren't useless, it'd be cool if they buffed them. People really just need to learn how to use hydras effectively. Webs definitely need a buff though...
Getting move speed decreased is not fun. Getting parasited by webs was a terrible idea. Webs do not need a buff but a complete redesign.
Well, if you call it webs, it's gotta be sticky no ?
It's useless and so clumsy to drop atm. If you intend to help the gorge delay their tunnel (back to OP?) , then it needs redesign
Hydras aren't useless, it'd be cool if they buffed them. People really just need to learn how to use hydras effectively. Webs definitely need a buff though...
Getting move speed decreased is not fun. Getting parasited by webs was a terrible idea. Webs do not need a buff but a complete redesign.
Complete redesign slightly too extreme perhabs though I agree that an overhaul would be welcome. In the form of an active soft counter (crowd control in fps should always have some form of counter).
For example if looking around with the mouse and pressing a/d/a/d really fast sorta "breaks" the web (decreasing the slow intensity and duration) that would make it more fun, allowing an active way to counter it
Hydras aren't useless, it'd be cool if they buffed them. People really just need to learn how to use hydras effectively. Webs definitely need a buff though...
Getting move speed decreased is not fun. Getting parasited by webs was a terrible idea. Webs do not need a buff but a complete redesign.
Complete redesign slightly too extreme perhabs though I agree that an overhaul would be welcome. In the form of an active soft counter (crowd control in fps should always have some form of counter).
For example if looking around with the mouse and pressing a/d/a/d really fast sorta "breaks" the web (decreasing the slow intensity and duration) that would make it more fun, allowing an active way to counter it
You already can counter it. Buy a welder. Welders kill webs. You shouldn't leave base without one anyway.
Hydras aren't useless, it'd be cool if they buffed them. People really just need to learn how to use hydras effectively. Webs definitely need a buff though...
Getting move speed decreased is not fun. Getting parasited by webs was a terrible idea. Webs do not need a buff but a complete redesign.
Complete redesign slightly too extreme perhabs though I agree that an overhaul would be welcome. In the form of an active soft counter (crowd control in fps should always have some form of counter).
For example if looking around with the mouse and pressing a/d/a/d really fast sorta "breaks" the web (decreasing the slow intensity and duration) that would make it more fun, allowing an active way to counter it
You already can counter it. Buy a welder. Welders kill webs. You shouldn't leave base without one anyway.
..unless you're on a heroic suicide mission for the good of humanity.
Heroes don't need welders.
I don't know all the ins and outs but do i understand correct that Gorges can't make a tunnel now at the start of a game because tunnels are a nuisance to Marines overall?
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Webs still aren't all that useful in their current implementation. I think they should tangle marines for a bit longer like they used to, and be cloaked unless scanned by the comm or within range of an obs.
Webs still aren't all that useful in their current implementation. I think they should tangle marines for a bit longer like they used to, and be cloaked unless scanned by the comm or within range of an obs.
I don't really like the cloak idea, but I think it'd be better if they were partially transparent, harder to see.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Webs aren't usable in combat because thy are on a build menu which is unusable as far as I'm concerned. If there was more per lifeform customization available it might be ok.
As is the ability MIGHT be strong. But we wouldn't know because no one can use it to capacity
Webs aren't usable in combat because thy are on a build menu which is unusable as far as I'm concerned. If there was more per lifeform customization available it might be ok.
Gorges ain't spiders.
How about replacing it by ... by some muddy glowy puddle kind of a gorge vomit like thing (if I was not at work, I would illustrate lol) sticking unfortunates marines that rely on their feets to move (i.e.: JP and Exo don't care) and having a total capacity of stickyness or just decay in time.
Gorges ain't spiders.
How about replacing it by ... by some muddy glowy puddle kind of a gorge vomit like thing (if I was not at work, I would illustrate lol) sticking unfortunates marines that rely on their feets to move (i.e.: JP and Exo don't care) and having a total capacity of stickyness or just decay in time.
For real. We need something to do with sticky shoes.
Gorges ain't spiders.
How about replacing it by ... by some muddy glowy puddle kind of a gorge vomit like thing (if I was not at work, I would illustrate lol) sticking unfortunates marines that rely on their feets to move (i.e.: JP and Exo don't care) and having a total capacity of stickyness or just decay in time.
Inspiration from nature: Northern Fulmar
“It’s a less-than-charming defence tactic that not only smells hideous, it’s also dangerous: the blast of vomit is highly acidic…”
“…the feathers which had been hit by the oil became wet during bathing. The waterlogged birds sank deep into the water, were unable to fly and finally died of exposure or drowning. “
@.trixX. (you dirty lil' hacker)
Well sometimes, when I read something here and there, it kinda triggers the same defensive reflexes ... and now my screen is full of holes.
Comments
Piggies would lose an important ability... in NS1 they were the [:: Builders of Chambers ::]
Restricting them to a fast builder and field medic would be boring. Maybe increase hydra + web limit?
Two gorges immediately setting up a tunnel in the nook of Club when marines spawn in Launch Control on Descent is just devastating.
The amount of PvE (20 clogs, shade, crag, whip, tunnel, all while getting healed by two gorges) is insane that early game, the difficulty and cost in removing it is all consuming, expensive and still not a guarantee, aliens are putting pressure on their naturals and their base that makes close spawns look like cake, and most of all the impact it has on Marines because they can't do what they normally would be (capping RTs, killing harvesters) is just stupidly crushing considering the ease, timing, and cost of setting it up for aliens.
I can't think of anything else that is that stupidly cheap and comes with such a massive impact, especially early on.
Maps that require an instant tunnel should just be fixed instead of relying on a bandaid that otherwise creates an imbalanced advantage elsewhere.
Keep the delay, I say. Make gorges more mobile if you have to, but good lord keep the delay.. it's really not much to require aliens at least holding that room or marines failing to lane it.
We're looking at making some QoL/changes to bellyslide to help improve gorge mobility a bit- hopefully this alleviates some of the concerns in this thread. A small reduction in marine sprint speed might be a possibility as well (the same .25 reduction used in compmod).
He can die as skulk, spawn as gorge and have a 2nd tunnel by the time he gets to where hes going.
Let's adapt and try to find alternative to die as a skulk then respawn as a gorge, like going gorge first and team up with skulks to support early engagments.
I don't even think tunnels should be in the game, it was a ceappy shoehorn UWE put in removing asymmetry. If aliens were faster they wouldnt even need the parity with phase gates. But now we're stuck balancing around existing features because no one wants to waste work.
One thing you'll notice in every suggestion I throw out wherever is that they don't involve wasting other features that were already worked on, because that's lame as hell
edit: The only reason that skulk use is even viable is because of the UWE band-aid of removing "no res while dead"
When tunnels appeared, I disliked it, for the reason you invoke: an assymetry killer. But I got used to it, and finally liked it.
When 250 was released, it drove me away from the game, literrally. It took monthes before I try it again and in fine, dealed with structutres you can build on infestation, JP/Exo with only one CC etc.
When I came back, I was so sorry the base shrinked like an innuit ding a ling peeing in the heart of the pole 6 months night.
When I saw large servers, I stayed away saying no way I'll get in there, i'ts not NS, it's decadence. But one evening, I eventually joined, and saw that NS could have more dimensions. I had fun, with nice people.
Yes, we don't like changes, what we know is safe, what we don't know is unsafe.
What I believe is that it would be fatal is get back to a dead model, so better move forward than turning back.
I'll find a way to tunnel your mom !
'Though I know it's impossible to go living thru the past", Bob Marley, Natural Mystic.
You can either have earlier gorge tunnels, or better support gorges (more mobile).
Also @IronHorse, I don't think marines should be letting gorges set up in club as a launch control start, at least not without aliens committing vast amount of lifeforms to it and leaving observation --> water treatment --> energy flow open and cyst chains neutered (thus no expansion)
And add lerk lifting while you're at it. And let aliens run faster by default.
Agree that webs and hydras should be a little stronger... Maybe not something that could block marines from jumping over though (such things also block other aliens) plus hydras already block gunfire...
When I gorge I use hydras rarely and I never rely on them for anything other than a momentary distraction or early warning system of sorts... They could stand to have just a little bit more damage or health. (not both)
Webs are useless right now.. Basically just used for the brief parasite they offer.. They should slow by at least 50% imo.. After all they are webs....
Lerk lift would be awesome even if it was just a biomass 9 ability for strafing gorge+lerk bile runs to serve as a game ender..
And no to faster skulks. They're already fast enough (Especially with celerity)
Getting move speed decreased is not fun. Getting parasited by webs was a terrible idea. Webs do not need a buff but a complete redesign.
It's useless and so clumsy to drop atm. If you intend to help the gorge delay their tunnel (back to OP?) , then it needs redesign
Complete redesign slightly too extreme perhabs though I agree that an overhaul would be welcome. In the form of an active soft counter (crowd control in fps should always have some form of counter).
For example if looking around with the mouse and pressing a/d/a/d really fast sorta "breaks" the web (decreasing the slow intensity and duration) that would make it more fun, allowing an active way to counter it
You already can counter it. Buy a welder. Welders kill webs. You shouldn't leave base without one anyway.
..unless you're on a heroic suicide mission for the good of humanity.
Heroes don't need welders.
Or unless you're a rookie, and already spend 45 Pres on welders
I don't know all the ins and outs but do i understand correct that Gorges can't make a tunnel now at the start of a game because tunnels are a nuisance to Marines overall?
I don't really like the cloak idea, but I think it'd be better if they were partially transparent, harder to see.
I concur. You should miss them unless you're looking for them, like real spider webs.
Cloaking upgrade for aliens is already annoying enough.
As is the ability MIGHT be strong. But we wouldn't know because no one can use it to capacity
Suggestion: What if you were able to shot web?
How about replacing it by ... by some muddy glowy puddle kind of a gorge vomit like thing (if I was not at work, I would illustrate lol) sticking unfortunates marines that rely on their feets to move (i.e.: JP and Exo don't care) and having a total capacity of stickyness or just decay in time.
For real. We need something to do with sticky shoes.
Inspiration from nature: Northern Fulmar
“It’s a less-than-charming defence tactic that not only smells hideous, it’s also dangerous: the blast of vomit is highly acidic…”
“…the feathers which had been hit by the oil became wet during bathing. The waterlogged birds sank deep into the water, were unable to fly and finally died of exposure or drowning. “
Well sometimes, when I read something here and there, it kinda triggers the same defensive reflexes ... and now my screen is full of holes.