I don't like the persistent cyst bugs, but at the same time marines can sometimes have structures that can never be powered, or even worse, rooms with a glitched power node. As far as the general cyst discussion here goes, I don't think they should be removed. I like the fact that when the chain is broken now, the unconnected cysts become weaker and easier to mop up. I still think that infestation should reach an area before an alien structure can be placed. But maybe alien structures, like whips already do, could stay alive off of infestation. Perhaps a crag would stop healing, a shift would stop energy regen, a shade would stop cloaking other entities, and harvesters would just sit there generating nothing. Kind of like how marine structures stop working without power, but don't blow up by themselves because the power node is down. Kind of an alien buff, though, so something would be needed to compensate.
Cysts are needed to slow aliens down because of how they can reach faraway areas much faster than marines. Power nodes are needed because marines can build so fast. Both are used by the other teams as a means to indirectly attack each others territory. Either can be attacked to contest map control. That's partially why gorge tunnels and their infestation spread is so nice, besides the fact that they are player transports: They allow for advance building where previous turf hasn't been secured and built up, something usually reserved for marines. I realize that dropping cysts is boring, but so is building the power node. It's just a method of asymmetrical balance and gameplay.
@Bike_Man they are certainly NOT needed to slow down alien expansion. You can simply buff marines instead to make them better at slowing expansion.
Stop the **** band-aids should be the new motto
Cysts and power nodes are core elements of map control and balance, NOT band-aids.
And for those who want to remove cysts just because "it's annoying and ugly" I'd suggest:
1. disable minimal infestation
2. or go play some basic game like overwatch and cie
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@RevanCorana they are certainly not core elements. They can be adjusted just by increasing build times lmao. They don't need your protection either, they're strong independent annoyances
Cysts and power nodes are core elements of map control and balance, NOT band-aids.
Cysts were a band aid for the dynamic infestation.
The actual core element is claimng and attacking resource towers.
The cysting / decysting process itself adds no depth to the to that element. It's just unnecessarily tedious. Instead of shooting the floor, you might as well shoot structures.
Instead of shooting 4 cysts around the rt and then wait for the aliens to arrive, you might as well shoot the the rt right away (band aided by nutrient mist).
Instead of dropping cysts before dropping structures, you might as well drop structures right away.
That will not make alien expansion impossible to stop, because it is not what makes alien expansion out. What alien expansion makes out is resource cost and build time.
It is not the cyst chain that is stopping you from claiming marine territory. It is your lack of life forms to defend it.
The infestation part may stay, but at least the texture should be visualy improved. It should spread from the hive to each structure automatically with invisible cysts. If the structure dies, the infestation recedes.
And for those who want to remove cysts just because "it's annoying and ugly" I'd suggest:
1. disable minimal infestation
2. or go play some basic game like overwatch and cie
1. It would still be annoying to kill cysts and the texture would still be ugly. On top of that it's disadvantageous to do.
2. Cysting and decysting does not make NS2 more advanced. Also, please don't pull your strawman bullshit on me.
That will not make alien expansion impossible to stop, because it is not what makes alien expansion out. What alien expansion makes out is resource cost and build time.
I disagree with this part. Being able to drop a crag at the start of the game at an advantageous RT or TP/RT would make a huge difference.
I get that you want to adjust the build time to counter this, but the collateral damage is that you'll have to cope with the longer build times for the entire rest of the game.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
I get that you want to adjust the build time to counter this, but the collateral damage is that you'll have to cope with the longer build times for the entire rest of the game.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
I disagree with this part. Being able to drop a crag at the start of the game at an advantageous RT or TP/RT would make a huge difference.
You can do this already. Nothing would change. If you disagree then provide an example.
Not quite... The longer the cyst chain, the longer before the infestation spreads at the last one. NS1 may be a bad example because there was no com, but the whole team could go gorge, rush MS, drop an MC and wreak havoc. That was pretty annoying. Early rushes in NS2 are executed by skulks, maybe with drifter support.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
But the ability to defend it is increased by support structures :P
I disagree with this part. Being able to drop a crag at the start of the game at an advantageous RT or TP/RT would make a huge difference.
You can do this already. Nothing would change. If you disagree then provide an example.
You can't. Example:
Aliens start in warehouse.
If aliens can drop structures anywhere: x skulks immediately go Mezzanine (number depends on playercount). Khamm drops a crag next to the RT. One of the skulks gorges, builds the crag and defenses. Gorge and skulks hold Mezzanine, securing Server, Platform and Mezzanine RTs.
If aliens can't drop structures anywhere:
Same goal - crag in Mezzanine. Several possibilities:
1) Skulks go there, Khamm cysts there. Infestation takes 20 seconds to reach Mezzanine, THEN a crag can be dropped. Skulks are on their own until crag is built.
2) One skulk immediately goes gorge, drops a tunnel in base, runs to Mezzanine through server (~15 seconds?), drops other end of the tunnel. Tunnel spreads infestation after a while. Only then can a crag be dropped. Again skulks are on their own for the first 15 seconds or so.
3) One of the skulks goes gorge in Mezz and drops a tunnel. Commander drops a crag next to the tunnel. The gorge has no res left for hydras.
I get that you want to adjust the build time to counter this, but the collateral damage is that you'll have to cope with the longer build times for the entire rest of the game.
Build times could remain the same on infestation.[/quote]
That's nice and all, but not of much use if the commander cannot deliberately spread infestation.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.[/quote]
You do have expanded, provided marines don't kill it. Having mature cysts all over the map severely increases the possibilities of the Khammander - allowing him to drop impromptu healing nests and drifters as well as giving him the ability to provide bonewall and rupture support.
Of course you're not going to keep it if your team can't defend it - but that's true for a hive location as well. However you WILL keep it if the enemy does not attack it.
Also I would like to point out that the ability to drop a shade anywhere in combination with a drifter might be op.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
That it would require a whole redesign of the game.
That it's a core element is just bullshit. They were in the game at release and there was not a reason in the fucking world to shoot them before an RT or anything else.
One positive game element that power nodes and infestation is that they show map control. You look into an infested room and you know it's alien territory. Even rookies know that it is alien territory.
I disagree with this part. Being able to drop a crag at the start of the game at an advantageous RT or TP/RT would make a huge difference.
You can do this already. Nothing would change. If you disagree then provide an example.
You can't. Example:
Aliens start in warehouse.
If aliens can drop structures anywhere: x skulks immediately go Mezzanine (number depends on playercount). Khamm drops a crag next to the RT. One of the skulks gorges, builds the crag and defenses. Gorge and skulks hold Mezzanine, securing Server, Platform and Mezzanine RTs.
If aliens can't drop structures anywhere:
Same goal - crag in Mezzanine. Several possibilities:
1) Skulks go there, Khamm cysts there. Infestation takes 20 seconds to reach Mezzanine, THEN a crag can be dropped. Skulks are on their own until crag is built.
2) One skulk immediately goes gorge, drops a tunnel in base, runs to Mezzanine through server (~15 seconds?), drops other end of the tunnel. Tunnel spreads infestation after a while. Only then can a crag be dropped. Again skulks are on their own for the first 15 seconds or so. 3) One of the skulks goes gorge in Mezz and drops a tunnel. Commander drops a crag next to the tunnel. The gorge has no res left for hydras.
Exactly, you can do this already. There may be a difference in timings, but those timings could be adjusted by build time. You would still want the mezz tunnel over hydras though.
I get that you want to adjust the build time to counter this, but the collateral damage is that you'll have to cope with the longer build times for the entire rest of the game.
Build times could remain the same on infestation.
That's nice and all, but not of much use if the commander cannot deliberately spread infestation.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
You do have expanded, provided marines don't kill it. Having mature cysts all over the map severely increases the possibilities of the Khammander - allowing him to drop impromptu healing nests and drifters as well as giving him the ability to provide bonewall and rupture support.
Of course you're not going to keep it if your team can't defend it - but that's true for a hive location as well. However you WILL keep it if the enemy does not attack it.
The point I was trying to make is that, with the proposed changes, it would not end up being overpowered just because you can drop a crag in a room that is not connected with your hive.
For example on tram with aliens spawning in warehouse and marines holding hub, you "could" just drop a crag in elevator, but you wouldn't be able to hold it (without lifeforms), since the next recapper would find and kill it.
In current vanilla, you could do the same thing, if you held the cyst chain to elevator until the last cyst is up
Exaggeration probably... There are so many nuisance in the balancing that rely on cyst-spread infestation (structure building availability, "spells", knowledge of marine expansion without scouting, structure armour degradation). Removing them would create more trouble than it solves, imo...
I'm not saying it's the best game mechanic EVAH, HUR DURR, nor that the counter-arguments are not valid, but it does seem necessary to me.
NS2 is pretty open to modding. Could power nodes and cysts feasibly be removed by a mod? I haven't heard many people in-game complain about the existence of either, but I think that the only way we could definitely tell what's better at this point is to see it in action. Let a variety of players play test on several maps that lack cysts and power nodes. I don't know how infestation would be gained and lost, or if it would even exist anymore: Maybe it would be better for aliens to not need infestation spread at all. Or maybe the alien comm just needs a bit more fun stuff to do, something to parallel how the marine comm is a med and ammo nanny.
Until they break them with the fast paced upgrades...
LUA is also a pain in the arse, I was much more comfortable with compiled C plugins of the HL1 era (that's just taste I guess)
@Bike_Man : But in seriousness, it's not a bad idea. The hardest part I see in it is gathering the proper amount of players with diverse skill level to test it....
I'm not even saying remove them. No one can seem to comprehend the idea hat they just need to be NOT NEEDED for structures
I do comprehend, but I'm all about "fuck cysts" right now x).
I've been thinking lately what I like doing in the game and I've realised that the activity of killing cysts just sucks. Especially in late game it's just hassle to kill cysts all the time. It's essentially a competition of who is more annoying between the marines and the alien commander.
That is not depth, and with the current changes in mind, removing them wouldn't even make much of a difference. It really adds just unnecessary complexity to the game.
Having cysts just to be different from ns1 or aliens to be different from marines is not a good reason imo.
It would be much easier to work around bugs like this if the path (or lack thereof) to the cyst would be shown as you move around the cyst (before you place it). Then you could see where it works and doesn't - and see where the chain ended.
Cyst placement is part of the alien commander gameplay and strategy (aggresive cysting being an example among many)
By automating the cyst chains, alien commander would lose a lot of tactical depth, become more "autopilot" and have less things to do especially early game.
It's much better to improve the existing mechanic than to remove it IMO.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
It wouldn't be wise to use all your Tres at the very beginning of the game.
I've been thinking lately what I like doing in the game and I've realised that the activity of killing cysts just sucks. Especially in late game it's just hassle to kill cysts all the time.
Killing cysts isn't the most thrilling thing to do but I don't recall many games I had to even think about it. I either kill cysts near the Hive, at the entrance of a key room, or near a Harvester to ensure it dies. Or while I'm waiting in a room with Aliens' structures and I'm bored. I don't willingly spend time killing cysts one by one. That's why they're enchained, making it easier to destroy them without doing that tedious routine.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
It wouldn't be wise to use all your Tres at the very beginning of the game.
I've been thinking lately what I like doing in the game and I've realised that the activity of killing cysts just sucks. Especially in late game it's just hassle to kill cysts all the time.
Killing cysts isn't the most thrilling thing to do but I don't recall many games I had to even think about it. I either kill cysts near the Hive, at the entrance of a key room, or near a Harvester to ensure it dies. Or while I'm waiting in a room with Aliens' structures and I'm bored. I don't willingly spend time killing cysts one by one. That's why they're enchained, making it easier to destroy them without doing that tedious routine.
well, I made this thread not to argue about having cyst in the game mechanics or not. But please go ahead and discuss(no sarcasm).
But the point of this is to highlight, imho, a really critical bug that actually breaks the game.
With the number of new rookies coming in and they don't have green tags, how are they gonna know how to "fix" this cyst bug.
Isn't this bug enough to make them think "this game is broken, now everyone will blame me for a bug I can't prove"(they probably didn't play long enough to know that this bug existed and vets who know this will help them because most of them have left). non-rookie new players will start getting pissed at the alien comm for not expanding out....etc.
so shouldn't this be fixed regardless of whether ns2 dev decides to have cysts or not?
Comments
Cysts are needed to slow aliens down because of how they can reach faraway areas much faster than marines. Power nodes are needed because marines can build so fast. Both are used by the other teams as a means to indirectly attack each others territory. Either can be attacked to contest map control. That's partially why gorge tunnels and their infestation spread is so nice, besides the fact that they are player transports: They allow for advance building where previous turf hasn't been secured and built up, something usually reserved for marines. I realize that dropping cysts is boring, but so is building the power node. It's just a method of asymmetrical balance and gameplay.
Stop the fucking band-aids should be the new motto
Yes because there's no way that would have unintended side effects.
Cysts and power nodes are core elements of map control and balance, NOT band-aids.
And for those who want to remove cysts just because "it's annoying and ugly" I'd suggest:
1. disable minimal infestation
2. or go play some basic game like overwatch and cie
Cysts were a band aid for the dynamic infestation.
The actual core element is claimng and attacking resource towers.
The cysting / decysting process itself adds no depth to the to that element. It's just unnecessarily tedious. Instead of shooting the floor, you might as well shoot structures.
Instead of shooting 4 cysts around the rt and then wait for the aliens to arrive, you might as well shoot the the rt right away (band aided by nutrient mist).
Instead of dropping cysts before dropping structures, you might as well drop structures right away.
That will not make alien expansion impossible to stop, because it is not what makes alien expansion out. What alien expansion makes out is resource cost and build time.
It is not the cyst chain that is stopping you from claiming marine territory. It is your lack of life forms to defend it.
The infestation part may stay, but at least the texture should be visualy improved. It should spread from the hive to each structure automatically with invisible cysts. If the structure dies, the infestation recedes.
1. It would still be annoying to kill cysts and the texture would still be ugly. On top of that it's disadvantageous to do.
2. Cysting and decysting does not make NS2 more advanced. Also, please don't pull your strawman bullshit on me.
I disagree with this part. Being able to drop a crag at the start of the game at an advantageous RT or TP/RT would make a huge difference.
I get that you want to adjust the build time to counter this, but the collateral damage is that you'll have to cope with the longer build times for the entire rest of the game.
I think alien expansion is very much defined by cysts.
edit: quote fix
You can do this already. Nothing would change. If you disagree then provide an example.
Build times could remain the same on infestation.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
Not quite... The longer the cyst chain, the longer before the infestation spreads at the last one. NS1 may be a bad example because there was no com, but the whole team could go gorge, rush MS, drop an MC and wreak havoc. That was pretty annoying. Early rushes in NS2 are executed by skulks, maybe with drifter support.
But the ability to defend it is increased by support structures :P
You can't. Example:
Aliens start in warehouse.
If aliens can drop structures anywhere: x skulks immediately go Mezzanine (number depends on playercount). Khamm drops a crag next to the RT. One of the skulks gorges, builds the crag and defenses. Gorge and skulks hold Mezzanine, securing Server, Platform and Mezzanine RTs.
If aliens can't drop structures anywhere:
Same goal - crag in Mezzanine. Several possibilities:
1) Skulks go there, Khamm cysts there. Infestation takes 20 seconds to reach Mezzanine, THEN a crag can be dropped. Skulks are on their own until crag is built.
2) One skulk immediately goes gorge, drops a tunnel in base, runs to Mezzanine through server (~15 seconds?), drops other end of the tunnel. Tunnel spreads infestation after a while. Only then can a crag be dropped. Again skulks are on their own for the first 15 seconds or so.
3) One of the skulks goes gorge in Mezz and drops a tunnel. Commander drops a crag next to the tunnel. The gorge has no res left for hydras.
Build times could remain the same on infestation.[/quote]
That's nice and all, but not of much use if the commander cannot deliberately spread infestation.
Lets agree on this: cysts were supposed to limit alien expansion.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.[/quote]
You do have expanded, provided marines don't kill it. Having mature cysts all over the map severely increases the possibilities of the Khammander - allowing him to drop impromptu healing nests and drifters as well as giving him the ability to provide bonewall and rupture support.
Of course you're not going to keep it if your team can't defend it - but that's true for a hive location as well. However you WILL keep it if the enemy does not attack it.
Also I would like to point out that the ability to drop a shade anywhere in combination with a drifter might be op.
Which one?
(I think he's right)
That it's a core element is just bullshit. They were in the game at release and there was not a reason in the fucking world to shoot them before an RT or anything else.
You could by moving structures forward.
The point I was trying to make is that, with the proposed changes, it would not end up being overpowered just because you can drop a crag in a room that is not connected with your hive.
For example on tram with aliens spawning in warehouse and marines holding hub, you "could" just drop a crag in elevator, but you wouldn't be able to hold it (without lifeforms), since the next recapper would find and kill it.
In current vanilla, you could do the same thing, if you held the cyst chain to elevator until the last cyst is up
Maybe, but you would eventually notice, because infestation is spreading there.
Exaggeration probably... There are so many nuisance in the balancing that rely on cyst-spread infestation (structure building availability, "spells", knowledge of marine expansion without scouting, structure armour degradation). Removing them would create more trouble than it solves, imo...
I'm not saying it's the best game mechanic EVAH, HUR DURR, nor that the counter-arguments are not valid, but it does seem necessary to me.
Until they break them with the fast paced upgrades...
LUA is also a pain in the arse, I was much more comfortable with compiled C plugins of the HL1 era
@Bike_Man : But in seriousness, it's not a bad idea. The hardest part I see in it is gathering the proper amount of players with diverse skill level to test it....
I do comprehend, but I'm all about "fuck cysts" right now x).
I've been thinking lately what I like doing in the game and I've realised that the activity of killing cysts just sucks. Especially in late game it's just hassle to kill cysts all the time. It's essentially a competition of who is more annoying between the marines and the alien commander.
That is not depth, and with the current changes in mind, removing them wouldn't even make much of a difference. It really adds just unnecessary complexity to the game.
Having cysts just to be different from ns1 or aliens to be different from marines is not a good reason imo.
one example here:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2261793/#Comment_2261793
(she even made a whole google doc and there was a trello Board entry about it.)
but sorry i cant find that.
I would add that you need Power-nodes only for Rooms with a CC in it (cause the CC consumes extra Power).
or the other way around:
That Extractors dont need Powernodes.
JUST LESS FOCUS TO CYSTS AND POWERNODES.
Cyst placement is part of the alien commander gameplay and strategy (aggresive cysting being an example among many)
By automating the cyst chains, alien commander would lose a lot of tactical depth, become more "autopilot" and have less things to do especially early game.
It's much better to improve the existing mechanic than to remove it IMO.
It wouldn't be wise to use all your Tres at the very beginning of the game.
Killing cysts isn't the most thrilling thing to do but I don't recall many games I had to even think about it. I either kill cysts near the Hive, at the entrance of a key room, or near a Harvester to ensure it dies. Or while I'm waiting in a room with Aliens' structures and I'm bored. I don't willingly spend time killing cysts one by one. That's why they're enchained, making it easier to destroy them without doing that tedious routine.
How would they be powered then?
Obviously by the included motor generator. No need to refuel when it's extracting it's own fuel.
Eh.
Sadly you must kill every cyst now to kill infestation. Instead of improving infestation they made it worse.
But the point of this is to highlight, imho, a really critical bug that actually breaks the game.
With the number of new rookies coming in and they don't have green tags, how are they gonna know how to "fix" this cyst bug.
Isn't this bug enough to make them think "this game is broken, now everyone will blame me for a bug I can't prove"(they probably didn't play long enough to know that this bug existed and vets who know this will help them because most of them have left). non-rookie new players will start getting pissed at the alien comm for not expanding out....etc.
so shouldn't this be fixed regardless of whether ns2 dev decides to have cysts or not?