Oh, wow, I was not aware of this. Maybe she planned this all along and the recent cyst/nutrient mist changes were made to pave the way there. Conspiracy agenda confirmed.
I could cover 2/3 of the map in cysts right at the start of the game, but that doesn't mean I've actually expanded. The alien territory is defined by the aliens ability to defend it.
It wouldn't be wise to use all your Tres at the very beginning of the game.
I've been thinking lately what I like doing in the game and I've realised that the activity of killing cysts just sucks. Especially in late game it's just hassle to kill cysts all the time.
Killing cysts isn't the most thrilling thing to do but I don't recall many games I had to even think about it. I either kill cysts near the Hive, at the entrance of a key room, or near a Harvester to ensure it dies. Or while I'm waiting in a room with Aliens' structures and I'm bored. I don't willingly spend time killing cysts one by one. That's why they're enchained, making it easier to destroy them without doing that tedious routine.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
well, I made this thread not to argue about having cyst in the game mechanics or not. But please go ahead and discuss(no sarcasm).
But the point of this is to highlight, imho, a really critical bug that actually breaks the game.
With the number of new rookies coming in and they don't have green tags, how are they gonna know how to "fix" this cyst bug.
Isn't this bug enough to make them think "this game is broken, now everyone will blame me for a bug I can't prove"(they probably didn't play long enough to know that this bug existed and vets who know this will help them because most of them have left). non-rookie new players will start getting pissed at the alien comm for not expanding out....etc.
so shouldn't this be fixed regardless of whether ns2 dev decides to have cysts or not?
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Shooting cysts to damage harvesters doesn't really work anymore, because nutrient mist stops it from taking damage without infestation. Killing just a few cysts is almost pointless. The cyst infestation was supposed to be a valueable resource that needs protection, but it isn't anymore.
Gorge tunnels, nutrient mist and the current mechanic of cysts losing maturity instead of hp undermine the alien infestation concept, but all that is fine, because just shooting cysts to damage structures is boring.
Before the patches, when pushing harvesters, you could just kill the cysts and then defend that decysted harvester against attacking aliens until it dies, but as a marine you should be vulnerable when commiting on damaging structures. On the other hand, when you're defending your RTs, you wanted to kill cysts that are spreading into your territory, but that made you open for ambushes and it gave away your position.
So essentially, you were vulnerable when defending, but not vulnerable when attacking, which makes no sense. It is unnesecarily complicated and tedious for everyone involved.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Shooting cysts to damage harvesters doesn't really work anymore, because nutrient mist stops it from taking damage without infestation. Killing just a few cysts is almost pointless. The cyst infestation was supposed to be a valueable resource that needs protection, but it isn't anymore.
They could make Nutrient Mist biomass 2 and Rupture biomass 1
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I do agree qith @Bicsum that killing cysts is really annoying since unconnected cysts don't die anymore... But how about giving the marine commander a tool that works only against cysts.
Like for example give MACs the ability to weld down cysts.
I do agree qith @Bicsum that killing cysts is really annoying since unconnected cysts don't die anymore... But how about giving the marine commander a tool that works only against cysts.
Like for example give MACs the ability to weld down cysts.
We have that. It's sentries.
edit: Although I admit it's not their intended purpose.
But hey, they have neat side effects, like killing aliens, too!
Sorry for jumping in a little late to the conversation, but what exactly are people proposing happens if cysts were to be removed?
Allow aliens to drop a structure anywhere? What's stopping you spamming whips in the enemy base at the start of the game whilst the marines are out capping resources?
Have infestation spread from the hive to nearby rooms automatically? What happens when you want to take a resource tower/forward base further away from your hive?
I'm just a little confused. Please can someone enlighten me as to how you envision infestation working without the cyst mechanic?
I see a lot of haters in this thread, but not a lot of problem solvers.
Allow aliens to drop a structure anywhere? What's stopping you spamming whips in the enemy base at the start of the game whilst the marines are out capping resources?
Whats stopping you from doing it in current vanilla? The answer is scouting, lane block and team resources.
Have infestation spread from the hive to nearby rooms automatically? What happens when you want to take a resource tower/forward base further away from your hive?
Imagine this: Dropping crags, shifts, shades and harvesters would work like dropping a cyst chain in current vanilla, BUT with invisible cysts. The invisible cyst chain would slowly but automatically build itself up in the same way it does right now.
If you want to expand to the next room, you would just drop a crag, shift, shade or harvester like you would drop a new cyst chain in current vanilla; OR you move a crag, shift or shade to the next room, and after 5 seconds of the structure being steady, a new cyst chain would be created to that structure.
You would kill the infestation by killing the crag, shift, shade or harvester.
Perhaps cysts could become sort of like an infestation-only version of Contamination. Just place them down anywhere for some temporary infestation, and then once an alien structure is built, the structure itself provides some ring of infestation. Or maybe cysts could stay largely the same, but stop relying on being chained. It would be a more tactical approach: Instead of forcing their placement, the khammander would pick and choose where they want the benefit of infestation to be. Naturally one would want infestation on resource nodes, but they also help gorges slide faster, damage and slow the building of marine structures, allow buildables, and allow global khammander abilities. It just isn't as necessary maybe for there to be a trail of them leading back to the hive. I know that it provides nice passive information - hey, players, the hive leads thisaway - but we can afford to experiment. Global cysting should also fix the bug this thread was started for. Of course, then we would need some way to stop the khamander from constantly cysting the marine base. Maybe a powered room blocks cyst placement? Who knows.
Another idea: Cysts disappear (invisible and invincible to marine fire) once fully matured, except for the last cyst in the chain. So if an area is held for long enough, it can't be cut off, but must be taken down from the end of the chain. Thoughts?
And Sherlock: You can't spam whips in their base. They cost money and take time to build them in their base. Even if you shifted them in, that would cost more money. Without any alien support, the marine comm could just shoot it all up and laugh doing so. With alien support, the marine team was incompetent anyway by letting a base be built in their base.
Whats stopping you from doing it in current vanilla? The answer is scouting, lane block and team resources.
Currently, the infestation spreads progressively through cysts. If you had to place a structure first, you'd need to kill that structure which does necessarily have more health than a cyst. So to prevent infestation from spreading, you only kill a couple of cysts easily and quicky. With the new mechanism you're mentioning, you would need to kill that structure, which takes more time and allows Aliens to free spam if they have too many resources or simply to troll.
Imagine this: Dropping crags, shifts, shades and harvesters would work like dropping a cyst chain in current vanilla, BUT with invisible cysts. The invisible cyst chain would slowly but automatically build itself up in the same way it does right now.
I would go for a kind of 'bigger' cyst, or a new structure designed for that purpose. You drop it anywhere on the map, you need an Alien around however to reveal the area. That structure is obviously stronger than a single cyst, infestation expands from it, something like what the Gorge tunnels currently do. However, the farther it is from the closest Hive, the longer it takes to get the infestation to that structure, and this structure's cost would be more expensive too depending on the distance. When the infestation finally reaches the structure, it spreads around it like a cyst. When the structure dies, the infestation also vanishes from it, slowly. You could place any other structure on the infestation, same as we do now. The exception would be regarding Harvesters, you wouldn't need this structure. They can spread infestation by themselves, but in a short radius to avoid the Aliens Commander to drop other structures immediately.
I still can see many downsides with that proposal, but less I think than being able to drop Aliens structures wherever you want.
And Sherlock: You can't spam whips in their base. They cost money and take time to build them in their base. Even if you shifted them in, that would cost more money. Without any alien support, the marine comm could just shoot it all up and laugh doing so. With alien support, the marine team was incompetent anyway by letting a base be built in their base.
The Commander would then risk to lose the whole base by logging out with no one around, it can be a bait, it can be a trap. Even if he can handle it himself, Marines would lack support from their Com everytime because he's always out. Marines would always need someone around to avoid that kind of situation.
Whats stopping you from doing it in current vanilla? The answer is scouting, lane block and team resources.
Currently, the infestation spreads progressively through cysts. If you had to place a structure first, you'd need to kill that structure which does necessarily have more health than a cyst. So to prevent infestation from spreading, you only kill a couple of cysts easily and quicky. With the new mechanism you're mentioning, you would need to kill that structure, which takes more time and allows Aliens to free spam if they have too many resources or simply to troll.
Yeah, but
a) there is a limit on support structures
b) these structures require to be built and generally take longer to be built
c) they are in one place. Crags in current vanilla cost 13 tres. That means you would have to hunt down 13 cysts instead of one crag, if you compare it by tres.
Imagine this: Dropping crags, shifts, shades and harvesters would work like dropping a cyst chain in current vanilla, BUT with invisible cysts. The invisible cyst chain would slowly but automatically build itself up in the same way it does right now.
I would go for a kind of 'bigger' cyst, or a new structure designed for that purpose. You drop it anywhere on the map, you need an Alien around however to reveal the area. That structure is obviously stronger than a single cyst, infestation expands from it, something like what the Gorge tunnels currently do. However, the farther it is from the closest Hive, the longer it takes to get the infestation to that structure, and this structure's cost would be more expensive too depending on the distance. When the infestation finally reaches the structure, it spreads around it like a cyst. When the structure dies, the infestation also vanishes from it, slowly. You could place any other structure on the infestation, same as we do now. The exception would be regarding Harvesters, you wouldn't need this structure. They can spread infestation by themselves, but in a short radius to avoid the Aliens Commander to drop other structures immediately.
I still can see many downsides with that proposal, but less I think than being able to drop Aliens structures wherever you want.
And Sherlock: You can't spam whips in their base. They cost money and take time to build them in their base. Even if you shifted them in, that would cost more money. Without any alien support, the marine comm could just shoot it all up and laugh doing so. With alien support, the marine team was incompetent anyway by letting a base be built in their base.
The Commander would then risk to lose the whole base by logging out with no one around, it can be a bait, it can be a trap. Even if he can handle it himself, Marines would lack support from their Com everytime because he's always out. Marines would always need someone around to avoid that kind of situation.
Ok, let's assume the alien commander wants to drop structures in the marine base.
When you don't have an observatory, you wouldn't know that there are structures in your base, so early game might seem like a problem. However, for that to happen, you would need to have a drifter pass by the marines and the aliens must not kill any marines, because any spawner would immediately see it.
When you have an observatory, you would see right away that it isn't a threat and you have time to react due to the increased build time, so it would just be wasting tres for the aliens. A gorge could potentially sneak through and build the in the marine base, but he can pretty much do this already with tunnels.
In reality this stuff rarely happens. If you can pull it of: kudos, but if you fail, then you've set yourself back a lot.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@Deck_ if you don't have a gorge you use cysts to slowly build, wasting res.
In NS1 if you didn't have several gorges you were fucked. I'm not proposing that. I'm saying you NEED 0, but you'll have one generally, and their importance will skyrocket. And not require massive skill
Thats positive as fuck for the game and for the rookies. And for the support mains
There would still be the possibility to build stuff on infestation and then move it to the desired location. I could see this not being apparent for most people though, but I also think that building off infestation with a drifter is not that big of a problem. Just increase the build time by 50% or 100%.
Gorges having to work with the alien commander makes sense to me. The only issue is what if you don't have a gorge or lose all your gorges?
OR if your gorges are bad and don't listen to the com and keep building clogs in main base?
Assuming players will always do the wrong thing will head you nowhere... Sure, you have to factor it in, but there are already a large amount of elements in NS that can cause match-wide fokkups if one player decides to go retarded
Building alien structures off of infestation seems like a good idea, but to what extent are we taking this? Will every structure fully function off of infestation, and the only penalty is build time and a gorge requirement? Should harvesters (or any other structure) need a cyst chain anymore? Passive infestation could completely remove cysts, I guess. Just build a structure, and infestation slowly reaches it. Maybe a cyst chain could reinforce that infestation, so even if the infestation anchor dies, a chain built later on would keep it on the map longer. Who knows. Some neat ideas in this thread, though. I kind of want to see cysts and infestation preserved in the game somehow, but I don't mind removing their current mechanics in favor of something better.
Gorges having to work with the alien commander makes sense to me. The only issue is what if you don't have a gorge or lose all your gorges?
OR if your gorges are bad and don't listen to the com and keep building clogs in main base?
Assuming players will always do the wrong thing will head you nowhere... Sure, you have to factor it in, but there are already a large amount of elements in NS that can cause match-wide fokkups if one player decides to go retarded
True but my point was about let the commander do the commanding.
Because gorges already are enough strategically important as is with building tunnels, rts, healing team mates etc..
Unless you want to rename this thread "remove completely alien commander". #copypastaNS1
Comments
Oh, wow, I was not aware of this. Maybe she planned this all along and the recent cyst/nutrient mist changes were made to pave the way there. Conspiracy agenda confirmed.
That was not the point.
Thats the problem. You don't think about doing it anymore, because you're used to it. Cysts were part of the game for a long time and you think that's just how it is, but it actually just plain stupid right now (or has always been).
Removing them is a fix.
Read again. It's not boring to me since it's limited to a couple of cysts. If I had to kill all of them to prevent the infestation, that would be indeed boring but I don't have to. I merely focus on the ones I mentioned above.
Then you haven't played since the last patches.
Yes. Which patch changed this?
Shooting cysts to damage harvesters doesn't really work anymore, because nutrient mist stops it from taking damage without infestation. Killing just a few cysts is almost pointless. The cyst infestation was supposed to be a valueable resource that needs protection, but it isn't anymore.
Gorge tunnels, nutrient mist and the current mechanic of cysts losing maturity instead of hp undermine the alien infestation concept, but all that is fine, because just shooting cysts to damage structures is boring.
Before the patches, when pushing harvesters, you could just kill the cysts and then defend that decysted harvester against attacking aliens until it dies, but as a marine you should be vulnerable when commiting on damaging structures. On the other hand, when you're defending your RTs, you wanted to kill cysts that are spreading into your territory, but that made you open for ambushes and it gave away your position.
So essentially, you were vulnerable when defending, but not vulnerable when attacking, which makes no sense. It is unnesecarily complicated and tedious for everyone involved.
They could make Nutrient Mist biomass 2 and Rupture biomass 1
Like for example give MACs the ability to weld down cysts.
Researchable at robotic factory for 10 tRes!
"Equip your macs with the Mrs Doubtfire 3000 module, clean up those pesky Kharaa cyst infestation for every cyst cleaned up, 1 tRes is refunded!"
We have that. It's sentries.
edit: Although I admit it's not their intended purpose.
But hey, they have neat side effects, like killing aliens, too!
Allow aliens to drop a structure anywhere? What's stopping you spamming whips in the enemy base at the start of the game whilst the marines are out capping resources?
Have infestation spread from the hive to nearby rooms automatically? What happens when you want to take a resource tower/forward base further away from your hive?
I'm just a little confused. Please can someone enlighten me as to how you envision infestation working without the cyst mechanic?
I see a lot of haters in this thread, but not a lot of problem solvers.
Whats stopping you from doing it in current vanilla? The answer is scouting, lane block and team resources.
Imagine this: Dropping crags, shifts, shades and harvesters would work like dropping a cyst chain in current vanilla, BUT with invisible cysts. The invisible cyst chain would slowly but automatically build itself up in the same way it does right now.
If you want to expand to the next room, you would just drop a crag, shift, shade or harvester like you would drop a new cyst chain in current vanilla; OR you move a crag, shift or shade to the next room, and after 5 seconds of the structure being steady, a new cyst chain would be created to that structure.
You would kill the infestation by killing the crag, shift, shade or harvester.
edit:
Another idea: Cysts disappear (invisible and invincible to marine fire) once fully matured, except for the last cyst in the chain. So if an area is held for long enough, it can't be cut off, but must be taken down from the end of the chain. Thoughts?
And Sherlock: You can't spam whips in their base. They cost money and take time to build them in their base. Even if you shifted them in, that would cost more money. Without any alien support, the marine comm could just shoot it all up and laugh doing so. With alien support, the marine team was incompetent anyway by letting a base be built in their base.
Currently, the infestation spreads progressively through cysts. If you had to place a structure first, you'd need to kill that structure which does necessarily have more health than a cyst. So to prevent infestation from spreading, you only kill a couple of cysts easily and quicky. With the new mechanism you're mentioning, you would need to kill that structure, which takes more time and allows Aliens to free spam if they have too many resources or simply to troll.
I would go for a kind of 'bigger' cyst, or a new structure designed for that purpose. You drop it anywhere on the map, you need an Alien around however to reveal the area. That structure is obviously stronger than a single cyst, infestation expands from it, something like what the Gorge tunnels currently do. However, the farther it is from the closest Hive, the longer it takes to get the infestation to that structure, and this structure's cost would be more expensive too depending on the distance. When the infestation finally reaches the structure, it spreads around it like a cyst. When the structure dies, the infestation also vanishes from it, slowly. You could place any other structure on the infestation, same as we do now. The exception would be regarding Harvesters, you wouldn't need this structure. They can spread infestation by themselves, but in a short radius to avoid the Aliens Commander to drop other structures immediately.
I still can see many downsides with that proposal, but less I think than being able to drop Aliens structures wherever you want.
The Commander would then risk to lose the whole base by logging out with no one around, it can be a bait, it can be a trap. Even if he can handle it himself, Marines would lack support from their Com everytime because he's always out. Marines would always need someone around to avoid that kind of situation.
Yeah, but
a) there is a limit on support structures
b) these structures require to be built and generally take longer to be built
c) they are in one place. Crags in current vanilla cost 13 tres. That means you would have to hunt down 13 cysts instead of one crag, if you compare it by tres.
Could also work.
Ok, let's assume the alien commander wants to drop structures in the marine base.
When you don't have an observatory, you wouldn't know that there are structures in your base, so early game might seem like a problem. However, for that to happen, you would need to have a drifter pass by the marines and the aliens must not kill any marines, because any spawner would immediately see it.
When you have an observatory, you would see right away that it isn't a threat and you have time to react due to the increased build time, so it would just be wasting tres for the aliens. A gorge could potentially sneak through and build the in the marine base, but he can pretty much do this already with tunnels.
In reality this stuff rarely happens. If you can pull it of: kudos, but if you fail, then you've set yourself back a lot.
edit: or just this VVV
Is this not obvious. This seems obvious to me
In NS1 if you didn't have several gorges you were fucked. I'm not proposing that. I'm saying you NEED 0, but you'll have one generally, and their importance will skyrocket. And not require massive skill
Thats positive as fuck for the game and for the rookies. And for the support mains
OR if your gorges are bad and don't listen to the com and keep building clogs in main base?
Assuming players will always do the wrong thing will head you nowhere... Sure, you have to factor it in, but there are already a large amount of elements in NS that can cause match-wide fokkups if one player decides to go retarded
Crag: functions normally off infestation but requires infestation for heal wave
Shift: function normally off infestation but requires infestation for echo, in both locations
Bonewall requires infestation
Automatic growth requires infestation
Maturity requires infestation
Things like this. Make infestation optional, but important
True but my point was about let the commander do the commanding.
Because gorges already are enough strategically important as is with building tunnels, rts, healing team mates etc..
Unless you want to rename this thread "remove completely alien commander". #copypastaNS1