Don't you reach the same speed that celerity gives you with good wall jumping?
A story:
I was Playing on some pub and nobody wanted to jump in the hive, the Alien's were complaining the teams were unfair. I was sick of waiting (another subject for another day) and jumped in the hive. Everyone yelled at me saying they didn't have a chance why bother. I picked crag hive and dropped all three shells just to fan the flames I guess. Everyone yelled at me even louder. I was using the drifter for support more than usual. We won.
Don't you reach the same speed that celerity gives you with good wall jumping?
A story:
I was Playing on some pub and nobody wanted to jump in the hive, the Alien's were complaining the teams were unfair. I was sick of waiting (another subject for another day) and jumped in the hive. Everyone yelled at me saying they didn't have a chance why bother. I picked crag hive and dropped all three shells just to fan the flames I guess. Everyone yelled at me even louder. I was using the drifter for support more than usual. We won.
Why is shift hive so popular? Way back when I started playing, crag was first because everybody wanted carapace. Is carapace no longer good?
I don't recall there ever being a point when people would choose crag more often than shift, though there were points when it was a more reasonable option.
Crag hive first seems perfectly viable. Cara has the most impact early game and gives skulks and lerks significantly improved odds for successful kills. Regen is perfect for hit and run gameplay which can be highly effective. Crush makes res biting much, much easier for skulks, keeping rines on the defensive and reducing their res.
Shade - lets have some fun
1. Aura = no sneaky marines and traps, map assurance = no RTs for marines
2. Focus = how you killed me with two swipes? cheater!
3. Vapm = fun with ambushes, spend you money on scanning
4. Inc = Marine Comm will be gravelly disappointed.
5. Hallucinations = where are these skulk came from??? Oh, reload, fuk!
Shift - lets win
1. Silence = just a cheat
2. Speed = I'll bite you in the face
3. Teleport for structures = hidden crags under shades on field, jumping shift
4. Enzyme = fun to rush CC
5. Energy (I don't use it anymore, but some players do like it)
Crag - lets suck
1. I want to loose. I hate my teammates.
2. Our team is too strong for them anyway.
3. Lets do something strange and listen team crying.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2017
You clearly lack any deeper understanding of ambushes with crag or lifeforms with regen.. or faster rt biting.. for example
Just because ppl are not aware how to utilize the craghive, it doesn't mean its not powerful..
Shift enhances skill- A good player plays better; better movement, ambush, etc. silence is also forgiving for "bad" players who don't know when to walk or miss that first sneaky bite...
Crag buffs inexperience- A good player plays the same, just has a better chance of surviving... if your running in a straight line the rine isn't going to miss more if you run faster so you might as well have more health.
It's like armor vs weapons upgrades... would you rather have weapon 3 or armor 3? If your shooting 25-30% you probably want weapons 3...
Personally I prefer celerity until leep then I go silence. I my skulk movement is on point, and celerity makes it better. Faster kills means less time for them to shoot.
Echo>healwave... I think echo is miss used a lot by commanders who don't rely on gorges (should not ONLY echo). But the ability to teleport so port is amazing
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Would making regeneration focus on restoring armor before health be a buff or a detriment? On one hand you get damage resistance to most weapons sooner than later, but if your armor is being reduced by a dot then you won't be able to restore health.
After investigating and researching, I'm changing my stance from "viable" to "viable, but not as viable as shade/shift, all things considered". Carapace, regen, heal wave, and mucous membrane definitely benefit later lifeforms much more than skulks. Skulks just have too little HP to make carapace and regen worth it early game when compared to things like celerity/silence/focus/etc. Same thing for comm abilities MM and HW.
Crush is great for res biting, but I don't think it's enough.
I don't know what, if anything, should be changed. I thought about changing carapace and regen to have bonus effects on skulks, but that would mess with early game balance, which I understand has happened before.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2017
The issue is rather that pubbers
1. Dont ambush enough.. a carapace skulk is really hard to kill if he ambushes you right in 1on1
2. They dont know how to get to topspeed fast with walljumps
3. There are literally no crushes by attacking several skulks at once with the first skulk trying to bait bullets..
In pub you have big servers where you need to work together since you often meet more than 1 marine and with 2vs1 you can potentially come out with full hp
There is a difference between it is bad, or ppl are to bad to utilize its full potential ... due to rookieness.. an illness presented by the lack of common sense and tutorials
The issue is rather that pubbers
1. Dont ambush enough.. a carapace skulk is really hard to kill if he ambushes you right in 1on1
2. They dont know how to get to topspeed fast with walljumps
3. There are literally no crushes by attacking several skulks at once with the first skulk trying to bait bullets..
In pub you have big servers where you need to work together since you often meet more than 1 marine and with 2vs1 you can potentially come out with full hp
There is a difference between it is bad, or ppl are to bad to utilize its full potential ... due to rookieness.. an illness presented by the lack of common sense and tutorials
Agreed. That's why I say "viable, but not as viable as shade/shift, all things considered". Considering rookies and pubs means that crag is less viable overall when compared to other options. If players know how to take advantage of crag upgrades, then probably all three options are viable.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
In competitive ns2 crag hive is the meta atm. Reason for that is since the hitboxes got bigger skulks and lerks can't rely on dodging as much anymore so they tank more instead. Not having celerity is rarely a problem since it doesn't effect engagements THAT much. The only thing celerity gives you is faster response times which is really useful when you need to group up fast.
In competitive ns2 crag hive is the meta atm. Reason for that is since the hitboxes got bigger skulks and lerks can't rely on dodging as much anymore so they tank more instead. Not having celerity is rarely a problem since it doesn't effect engagements THAT much. The only thing celerity gives you is faster response times which is really useful when you need to group up fast.
Also, isn't silence not on the shift hive in compmod? (not sure)
OK. I looked it up, found a vid, looks like it's belly sliding then immediately jumping and continuing to jump to maintain speed. That explains why sometimes I can chase a gorge, sometimes I cannot.
See, I don't need to be spoon fed. Looking it up myself was actually faster than waiting for a response. Is it such a bad thing to ask questions though, even simple ones?
What I see here is an age old commander concern. From my experience, the hive type goes to the players using the upgrades. I try to always ask for a majority consensus on hive type before every round for that reason, because everyone has a different play style and everyone benefits more from either spurs, veils, or shells. That being said, as a commander I adore the shift hive, because I play on 8v8 servers the most and that usually means one gorge. With one gorge I can't cap nodes fast enough to warrant the loss of echoing, although like I said I do frequently choose other hive types if the players request it. A commander's job in the hive is to server their players and lead them, not to drive them in a direction that doesn't suit them or hurts their ability to succeed on the field. Personally, crag first has not turned out well, as the early game engagements don't really seem to be swayed in the alien's favor by carapace or regen. I have found that silence and vampirism are huge for early game ambushes (which are the most crucial part of early game alien play), and that strongly sways my preference for first hive being shift or shade. The crag hive however is invaluable for mid to late game shot guns and weapons 2-3. Without the extra armor or regen, lifeforms appear too frail to accidents and marine ambushes, making crag hive an easy second hive pick. If I'm scared I may never get a second hive, crag may be the strongest option, but I have rarely been in such a situation (IE a game where aliens had 1 hive for a long time and no additional tech points without the team surrendering). To be clear, crag hive is invaluable, and from my experience is easily the best second hive pick by an even wider margin than the shift hive is first pick. Why? Because that's when the lifeforms are coming out, when ambush tactics decline, and combat prowess is essential. What benefits combat ability the best? I would have to say in the purest sense, in the actual engagement (not before or after), extra armor and regeneration are key. This makes all hive types in my mind valuable, but different in their utility. In regards to commander abilities, although they too are situation dependent, echo is by far the most useful and practical in the early game (which this thread wishes to address), as it asserts map control and allows harvesters to be deployed only at full health, reducing the lost res in drifters and unbuilt structures. Drifter abilities are only useful in tight situations or big engagements, and those tend to break out only in base rushes in the early game (in which really any drifter ability works well, and is so situationally dependent I can't say which is "best"). I would be happy to hear further thoughts, especially drawn from personal commander experience.
If some servers started playing with that mod, that would probably be enough to get me playing NS2 again.
Shellarious Basterds is an EU 7v7 server that has comp mod enabled on it. I believe TA is an NA 7v7 server that has comp mod too? I am not sure on this one though.
If some servers started playing with that mod, that would probably be enough to get me playing NS2 again.
Shellarious Basterds is an EU 7v7 server that has comp mod enabled on it. I believe TA is an NA 7v7 server that has comp mod too? I am not sure on this one though.
Comments
A story:
I was Playing on some pub and nobody wanted to jump in the hive, the Alien's were complaining the teams were unfair. I was sick of waiting (another subject for another day) and jumped in the hive. Everyone yelled at me saying they didn't have a chance why bother. I picked crag hive and dropped all three shells just to fan the flames I guess. Everyone yelled at me even louder. I was using the drifter for support more than usual. We won.
Yes, the ns2 community is stupid as shit
I don't recall there ever being a point when people would choose crag more often than shift, though there were points when it was a more reasonable option.
Shade - lets have some fun
1. Aura = no sneaky marines and traps, map assurance = no RTs for marines
2. Focus = how you killed me with two swipes? cheater!
3. Vapm = fun with ambushes, spend you money on scanning
4. Inc = Marine Comm will be gravelly disappointed.
5. Hallucinations = where are these skulk came from??? Oh, reload, fuk!
Shift - lets win
1. Silence = just a cheat
2. Speed = I'll bite you in the face
3. Teleport for structures = hidden crags under shades on field, jumping shift
4. Enzyme = fun to rush CC
5. Energy (I don't use it anymore, but some players do like it)
Crag - lets suck
1. I want to loose. I hate my teammates.
2. Our team is too strong for them anyway.
3. Lets do something strange and listen team crying.
Just because ppl are not aware how to utilize the craghive, it doesn't mean its not powerful..
Shift enhances skill- A good player plays better; better movement, ambush, etc. silence is also forgiving for "bad" players who don't know when to walk or miss that first sneaky bite...
Crag buffs inexperience- A good player plays the same, just has a better chance of surviving... if your running in a straight line the rine isn't going to miss more if you run faster so you might as well have more health.
It's like armor vs weapons upgrades... would you rather have weapon 3 or armor 3? If your shooting 25-30% you probably want weapons 3...
Personally I prefer celerity until leep then I go silence. I my skulk movement is on point, and celerity makes it better. Faster kills means less time for them to shoot.
Echo>healwave... I think echo is miss used a lot by commanders who don't rely on gorges (should not ONLY echo). But the ability to teleport so port is amazing
Crush is great for res biting, but I don't think it's enough.
I don't know what, if anything, should be changed. I thought about changing carapace and regen to have bonus effects on skulks, but that would mess with early game balance, which I understand has happened before.
1. Dont ambush enough.. a carapace skulk is really hard to kill if he ambushes you right in 1on1
2. They dont know how to get to topspeed fast with walljumps
3. There are literally no crushes by attacking several skulks at once with the first skulk trying to bait bullets..
In pub you have big servers where you need to work together since you often meet more than 1 marine and with 2vs1 you can potentially come out with full hp
There is a difference between it is bad, or ppl are to bad to utilize its full potential ... due to rookieness.. an illness presented by the lack of common sense and tutorials
Agreed. That's why I say "viable, but not as viable as shade/shift, all things considered". Considering rookies and pubs means that crag is less viable overall when compared to other options. If players know how to take advantage of crag upgrades, then probably all three options are viable.
That's a whopper of an "if", though.
Also, isn't silence not on the shift hive in compmod? (not sure)
BTW, I know I could look these things up myself, but I prefer more conversational methods.
@BestProfileName No silence got moved to shade hive hive in Comp Mod, and focus got removed
See, I don't need to be spoon fed. Looking it up myself was actually faster than waiting for a response. Is it such a bad thing to ask questions though, even simple ones?
just kidding, you are a cunt.
BOOOOOOOOM i am ready for my punishment forum cops. sorry. kinda.
Take your agree before you get moderated
If some servers started playing with that mod, that would probably be enough to get me playing NS2 again.
Shellarious Basterds is an EU 7v7 server that has comp mod enabled on it. I believe TA is an NA 7v7 server that has comp mod too? I am not sure on this one though.
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