Played a match yesterday. Aliens started in Biodome, marines crushed them. (Aliens didn't expand far enough to the right, took ventilation, had cargo uncontested, was game over at that point)
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Yeah, Biodome start is brutal for aliens. The Line of Sight is just way too strong from the entrances, and while there is cover, the marines can still harass the RT, cysts, hive or upgrades etc forcing the aliens to respond at which point they can back up a tiny bit and bottleneck the aliens into a straight line where they all die... unfortunately I don't think cover will solve the issue, allowing that kind of line of sight will always lead to marines winning too many engagements, and at a spawns entrances it just makes it feel worse.
The rest of the map feels like it will be pretty good to play, I spent a while just walking round and getting a feel for the rooms and I don't see any huge, glaring issues anywhere else.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2017
I've seen Biodome wins, wouldn't call it brutal, but yeah there are issues.
I've shortended that descent prop glass hallway entrance from 370 to 260 units. The prop and the broken window part still look ok.
The gained space turned into this:
Now Marines can also put 2 arcs in that corner before the broken area, which hit Biodome hive. A birdcage with a stone I'd say :8 lol
I've added another, small rock, which blocks line of sight on one of the two harvester cysts from water treatment into biodome.
There are two ways/ vents to flank Marines standing there shooting inside anyway. I hope i don't have to shorten this hallway entrance too.
Aliens also need to learn the map, but ofc a map shouldnt be too punishing too new players, so we'll see..
Marines start in Laser Drilling or Computer Lab, no close spawns.
I've adjusted those two locations for the techpoints and readded the Lava-Catwalk -> Cargo vent with another connection to Access.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I've actually played origin a few times since the last update and I've have to say, it has improved a LOT. Just a few things i'd ask for:
Make entrances/exits to rooms more obvious, some you literally can't tell are there until you're standing next to them, routing would be nice and more lighting, not brighter, just used to aid navigation. The map at times does seem a little overly complicated and convoluted at times... especially when you need to respond quickly (defend a PG or similar)
The main complaints i've heard so far about the map are that it is too difficult to find your way around while playing, and rooms are too empty.
There has been mention of too many "useless" rooms, which i'm inclined to agree with, there are a lot of rooms that seem to have no purpose other than to create a connection between two (sometimes more) other rooms.
But the map is definitely feeling a lot better than it did (especially biodome, the entrances are still a little punishing for aliens, but no where near as bad as they once were.
Keep up the great work Psyk, I'm loving seeing the map evolve.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Something I have noticed while playing origin is that the amount of vents are very abusable (especially by lerks). I am pretty sure this is to help aliens fight in the rooms that are too empty by providing more routes for aliens to take. However once the rooms are filled up you shold be able to cut down the number of vents hopefully
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks a lot guys, very valueable feedback, well written.
I've noticed that I have a very low light prop count. More light props might also help the players to navigate in some areas. They dont even have to cast much light.
Also I've got complaints that the map is too bright, which also distracts from the important areas of a room (exits, yada), so I've reduced a few omni lights already.
I'm surprised tho that exits are that hard to find. Obviously I can't judge this anymore, but I figured the doorframes that I'm basicly using in one half of the map should help the players to figure out the exits.
Regarding the empty rooms, I think that only applies to Tramtunnels and Shipping by now?! They are supposed to be marine friendly and they still offer ambush, cover and evasion spots.
There are two vents that I'm not sure about so far, which I might block.
The one leading from Computer Lab into Tramtunnels, and the vent from Coolant/Shipping transition room into Cargo, which I added when Cargo still was a double-res room.
I'm curious which rooms you consider useless?
I won't turn rooms into hallways for the sake of appearing less useless. Every map has less frequented areas.
The only room I considered "useless" was Xenoform Research, but then I saw Wyzcrak pulling some ARC strats on the Tactical Gamer server (Thanks for the replays btw!), where he sieged the Power Core Harvester and Gorge Tunnel from the Xenoform/Skylights hallway with a Shipping PG + Robo.
Anyway I'm glad the map is coming along nicely and that players start to learn the map and its gameplay.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2017
I took another shot at the map, trying to reduce some travel times and making the map easier to learn.
I rebuild the Xenoform Research area and tried to create better transitions for the visuals to guide the players. Also moved it to the south to reduce travel time between Skylights and Shipping. Now it looks more like a straight connection on the minimap, less maze-like.
As another step to improve orientation for players, I've removed that little room/corridor connecting Shipping and Coolant/Water Treatment and made Shipping bigger, but with more Containers for occlusion and cover.
I've also reduced travel time from/to Laser Drilling by moving it a bit towards Marine Start.
I've added some "green windows" around Water Treatment and made one of the two tanks see-through for better orientation in that area.
Overview:
New/Changed areas:
I can't really shrink the map horizontally, because of the res-node locations between the hives and the siege ranges, which are already completely at the limit.
But this should already help a bit, and the map isn't really bigger than Caged anyway.
Looks good. Are you sure all of these vents are necessary?
For example, the two vents in water treatment (one going to power core, one going to xenoform research) seem a little redundant. You could probably make do with just one of these.
The Ore extraction vent also looks really powerful, giving aliens a ton of options in that area. And the connection from comp lab to tram tunnel looks a bit awkward.
What I mean is, just let aliens use the regular connections. Don't let them be lazy and take vents everywhere.
What are the win rates on this map like? Was it alien or marine favored?
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I think winrates are pretty even, but there arent enough games played.
I agree that some of the vents are probably too much. That's how the NS1 version was. A vent system all around the map. For now I only removed the exit into Marine Start and the connection between Lava-Catwalk and Shipping compared to the NS1 version.
Complab to Tram and the Ore Extraction to Cargo vent are on my watch list and will probably be axed eventually..
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Update:
-Added more location/direction signs to the map
-Removed vent exit into Cargo coming from the Ore Extraction - Coolant vent
-Added another little hallway/door between the Cargo - Ore Extraction area (should help with orientation and battles in that area)
-Added a window at the end of the conveyor in that area, showing a closed off tunnel theme of Scanning for better orientation and visual depth
I remember as lerk I have time of my life on this map due to the vents
That's because you and Handschuh (yes, I saw your agree ) are great Lerks and not many Marines know the map well enough to fight Lerks properly let alone Lerks like you.
Other maps have those kind of areas too.
I've changed the vents around Cargo-Shipping area tho to make it easier for Marines to get inside. They just have to learn it.
I've also added a lot more details (finally proper grass in Biodome e.g.) , more decals and changed the lighting in some areas (more colors for you, IeptBarakat).
Now we just need some games goinnn...
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2017
Update:
-Moved vent exit in Lava Catwalk from that small, cramped corridor to the corner of the actual Lava Catwalk area.
This makes the tiny corridor between Lava Catwalk and Cargo less deadly for marines and shortens traveltime for Aliens from Cargo to Lava Catwalk and nearby locations.
-Added ceiling windows and sunlight to Cargo.
-Changed Skybox parts and Occlusion Geo so you can see other landmarks of the map through the glass windows in Cargo, Skylights and Biodome.
Would be nice, if the SCC guys could squeeze in a round of Origin tonight..if just for the sake of giving the map some much needed game time.
Edit: Almost forgot, special thanks to IeptBarakat, who gave me a lot of bug reports and suggestions. Appreciate it!
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2017
Okay, long post with pictures.
These are some mostly marine friendly/routing suggestions.
I think giving Marines some added space would be hugely beneficial to their starting area. Removing these railings would open up the room considerably and not make it seem so cramped upon starting. Upon @IronHorse request, I have become a vanguard of slaying inconvenient railings which excessively cramp areas of combat (but more importantly those of building in this area)
Entering the natural, Computer Lab, a marine is put in a hefty position of being possibly assaulted from both sides. Not fun, not fair, especially given how little space there is for the actual path, so combat and ambushes in this area would be awful. I'd increase the size of the path.
Perhaps something similar to this. I really like the use of space here. I do think there should be a window in this photo, though, on that back wall by the door, allowing a player to see into skylights before diving headfirst into it. It'd also make it feel more open, which is nice.
This room evokes some massive amounts of nostalgia, but it's also pretty 70s sci-fi campy (and not in a good way). That's for another time, though. The grass areas with the railings are a little odd aesthetically, but more importantly, they're really close to the door. I'd push them their entire depth into the wall, if possible, making a bit more space for players to engage. You can always add a computer terminal prop or something to give some more props for aliens.
This area is a nightmare. I loathe how tight this is, with both two tiny stair paths and this junction point, and even the ceiling working against me, regardless of team and class. Probably not fun for a Fade, probably not a nice thing to push through as a marine.
Similar tightness around this corner. Very much not a fan. Visibility is especially awful.
Suggestion for opening it up. You can cut open that wall feature (maybe even add PIPES? to block bullets), and create a window on the left side of the doorway (broken or not, leaning towards broken imo) attaching to the path below.
This water does not become you. Also, the vent is pretty hard to tell where it is, especially with this broken node. I'd choose a more exotic color than the same one which unpowered rooms set lights to. Perhaps a tone more orangier or yellower?
Two things about this monstrous crate. I think a smaller one would do to block line of sight better, but more importantly, it hurts with routing. Players are gonna have a hard time finding this doorway without looking at a map.
Another image of it, and the lack of signaling that there is a passage.
I feel similarly about this monstrous crate. It's real, real big, but I don't think necessary, and can be easily replaced with one that's about half the size (right justified of course). If you're worried about shooting into Control, I'd suggest placing a railing here (even though I loathe that idea)
I think you can probably open up this rock whole more and definitely more in the left direction. While it gives sufficient verticality (which you hear me complain about enough), the hallway is pretty tight for combat on either side. Opening it up might be the right answer.
I don't like this room. I saw what you were trying to do, and applaud it, but the problem is things like this are awful for routing players. The lighting was a step in the right direction, but I don't think it works well here. I could not find the exit without looking on my map. I'd break down the bridge more so to see the exit from the upper part of the room, but not allow players to actually get to it, nor shoot at it without losing a ton of bullets into weird broken crossbeams.
Verticality! AHHH
It hasn't proven to be a problem in this area, though. Regardless, I'd suggest breaking this staircase into three separate staircases, the second being in front or after the path to cargo, and the third being all the way on the other side of that 90 degree turn towards Generator, north of that power node.
I think that you should trim down the number of supports on this vent conveyor, as hitting skulks ain't going to be easy, anyway. Plus it makes trying to track flying aliens a bit harder.
I'd considerably dim the lights in these side rooms, as it's hard to navigate as a super fast lifeform. I'd also try to open this up. It's kind small on the minimap, and I think that player routing could benefit a lot from making this larger.
Finally, minimap suggestions:
The "try separating" Biodome suggestion is not suggesting you cut those vents, but instead suggesting to create distance between those areas of the map.
Also, trim down on vents. It's gotta be awful playing against decent lerks.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Update mostly based on Zavaro's suggestions (Thanks a lot!)
-Removed the wall between the stairs at the entrance from Skylights to Power Core
-Created more space around the corridor/area between Power Core and Biodome
-Replaced grass and plants in Xenoform with windows and some kind of biotope behind
-Removed one server-box in Computer Lab to make entrance more marine friendly
-Replaced 2 huge container crates with smaller ones according to Zavaro's suggestions
-Removed vent between Shipping and Tram Tunnels
-Improved the look of the water around Monitoring and Water Treatment area
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I ran around Origin just looking at everything and I have got to say, the map has changed a LOT since I last looked around it... and definitely for the better.
I will say that I'm still unsure about shipping... and when I say unsure I mean, it looks pretty as hell... but plays like ass... its such a difficult room to navigate, you NEED your map open to know where exits are and if you have your map open, you are more likely to lose an engagement should you be ambushed from one of the plethora of ambush locations.
Shipping kills the map imo. everything else is great, I like the look and it feels as though it will play well... but that one room just really makes me not want to play... or if I do play, I will always stay away from it.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Well the vent behind your back as Marine in Shipping is already gone now. The Tram-CompLab vent might be gone eventually too.
Maybe removing the first vent from Cargo to Shipping might help too. I just wanna see more games before I change this stuff...with Marines who know the map, who know how to use the crates in Shipping and Cargo to get up on the conveyor and in the vent.
Also regarding navigation maybe I can do something more with the floor to direct players. The exits in Shipping are pretty obvious now, imho, due to Signs, Lighting (brightness and color) and even the green plants behind the broken window on the left immediatly stand out. But they are partly covered by containers and crates obviously.
The Need to open your map is a mood point for the balance of the room once you've learned that room.
Comments
SCC testing is just too late for me
The rest of the map feels like it will be pretty good to play, I spent a while just walking round and getting a feel for the rooms and I don't see any huge, glaring issues anywhere else.
I've shortended that descent prop glass hallway entrance from 370 to 260 units. The prop and the broken window part still look ok.
The gained space turned into this:
I've added another, small rock, which blocks line of sight on one of the two harvester cysts from water treatment into biodome.
There are two ways/ vents to flank Marines standing there shooting inside anyway. I hope i don't have to shorten this hallway entrance too.
Aliens also need to learn the map, but ofc a map shouldnt be too punishing too new players, so we'll see..
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=916175914
Marines start in Laser Drilling or Computer Lab, no close spawns.
I've adjusted those two locations for the techpoints and readded the Lava-Catwalk -> Cargo vent with another connection to Access.
You better believe it
This thread is broken on so many levels. Now i can't even edit anymore.
Anyway..the linked picture is just the workshop pic with the overview.
Make entrances/exits to rooms more obvious, some you literally can't tell are there until you're standing next to them, routing would be nice and more lighting, not brighter, just used to aid navigation. The map at times does seem a little overly complicated and convoluted at times... especially when you need to respond quickly (defend a PG or similar)
The main complaints i've heard so far about the map are that it is too difficult to find your way around while playing, and rooms are too empty.
There has been mention of too many "useless" rooms, which i'm inclined to agree with, there are a lot of rooms that seem to have no purpose other than to create a connection between two (sometimes more) other rooms.
But the map is definitely feeling a lot better than it did (especially biodome, the entrances are still a little punishing for aliens, but no where near as bad as they once were.
Keep up the great work Psyk, I'm loving seeing the map evolve.
I've noticed that I have a very low light prop count. More light props might also help the players to navigate in some areas. They dont even have to cast much light.
Also I've got complaints that the map is too bright, which also distracts from the important areas of a room (exits, yada), so I've reduced a few omni lights already.
I'm surprised tho that exits are that hard to find. Obviously I can't judge this anymore, but I figured the doorframes that I'm basicly using in one half of the map should help the players to figure out the exits.
Regarding the empty rooms, I think that only applies to Tramtunnels and Shipping by now?! They are supposed to be marine friendly and they still offer ambush, cover and evasion spots.
There are two vents that I'm not sure about so far, which I might block.
The one leading from Computer Lab into Tramtunnels, and the vent from Coolant/Shipping transition room into Cargo, which I added when Cargo still was a double-res room.
I'm curious which rooms you consider useless?
I won't turn rooms into hallways for the sake of appearing less useless. Every map has less frequented areas.
The only room I considered "useless" was Xenoform Research, but then I saw Wyzcrak pulling some ARC strats on the Tactical Gamer server (Thanks for the replays btw!), where he sieged the Power Core Harvester and Gorge Tunnel from the Xenoform/Skylights hallway with a Shipping PG + Robo.
Anyway I'm glad the map is coming along nicely and that players start to learn the map and its gameplay.
I rebuild the Xenoform Research area and tried to create better transitions for the visuals to guide the players. Also moved it to the south to reduce travel time between Skylights and Shipping. Now it looks more like a straight connection on the minimap, less maze-like.
As another step to improve orientation for players, I've removed that little room/corridor connecting Shipping and Coolant/Water Treatment and made Shipping bigger, but with more Containers for occlusion and cover.
I've also reduced travel time from/to Laser Drilling by moving it a bit towards Marine Start.
I've added some "green windows" around Water Treatment and made one of the two tanks see-through for better orientation in that area.
Overview:
New/Changed areas:
I can't really shrink the map horizontally, because of the res-node locations between the hives and the siege ranges, which are already completely at the limit.
But this should already help a bit, and the map isn't really bigger than Caged anyway.
For example, the two vents in water treatment (one going to power core, one going to xenoform research) seem a little redundant. You could probably make do with just one of these.
The Ore extraction vent also looks really powerful, giving aliens a ton of options in that area. And the connection from comp lab to tram tunnel looks a bit awkward.
What I mean is, just let aliens use the regular connections. Don't let them be lazy and take vents everywhere.
What are the win rates on this map like? Was it alien or marine favored?
I agree that some of the vents are probably too much. That's how the NS1 version was. A vent system all around the map. For now I only removed the exit into Marine Start and the connection between Lava-Catwalk and Shipping compared to the NS1 version.
Complab to Tram and the Ore Extraction to Cargo vent are on my watch list and will probably be axed eventually..
-Added more location/direction signs to the map
-Removed vent exit into Cargo coming from the Ore Extraction - Coolant vent
-Added another little hallway/door between the Cargo - Ore Extraction area (should help with orientation and battles in that area)
-Added a window at the end of the conveyor in that area, showing a closed off tunnel theme of Scanning for better orientation and visual depth
That's because you and Handschuh (yes, I saw your agree
Other maps have those kind of areas too.
I've changed the vents around Cargo-Shipping area tho to make it easier for Marines to get inside. They just have to learn it.
I've also added a lot more details (finally proper grass in Biodome e.g.) , more decals and changed the lighting in some areas (more colors for you, IeptBarakat).
Now we just need some games goinnn...
-Moved vent exit in Lava Catwalk from that small, cramped corridor to the corner of the actual Lava Catwalk area.
This makes the tiny corridor between Lava Catwalk and Cargo less deadly for marines and shortens traveltime for Aliens from Cargo to Lava Catwalk and nearby locations.
-Added ceiling windows and sunlight to Cargo.
-Changed Skybox parts and Occlusion Geo so you can see other landmarks of the map through the glass windows in Cargo, Skylights and Biodome.
Would be nice, if the SCC guys could squeeze in a round of Origin tonight..if just for the sake of giving the map some much needed game time.
Edit: Almost forgot, special thanks to IeptBarakat, who gave me a lot of bug reports and suggestions. Appreciate it!
These are some mostly marine friendly/routing suggestions.
Perhaps something similar to this. I really like the use of space here. I do think there should be a window in this photo, though, on that back wall by the door, allowing a player to see into skylights before diving headfirst into it. It'd also make it feel more open, which is nice.
Suggestion for opening it up. You can cut open that wall feature (maybe even add PIPES? to block bullets), and create a window on the left side of the doorway (broken or not, leaning towards broken imo) attaching to the path below.
Another image of it, and the lack of signaling that there is a passage.
It hasn't proven to be a problem in this area, though. Regardless, I'd suggest breaking this staircase into three separate staircases, the second being in front or after the path to cargo, and the third being all the way on the other side of that 90 degree turn towards Generator, north of that power node.
The "try separating" Biodome suggestion is not suggesting you cut those vents, but instead suggesting to create distance between those areas of the map.
Also, trim down on vents. It's gotta be awful playing against decent lerks.
That halloween lighting looks terrible tho
Because Halloween.
I'm actively and possibly irrationally upset by this change.
I diagnose you with electrophobia
Is it just visually or also a gameplay change?
-Removed the wall between the stairs at the entrance from Skylights to Power Core
-Created more space around the corridor/area between Power Core and Biodome
-Replaced grass and plants in Xenoform with windows and some kind of biotope behind
-Removed one server-box in Computer Lab to make entrance more marine friendly
-Replaced 2 huge container crates with smaller ones according to Zavaro's suggestions
-Removed vent between Shipping and Tram Tunnels
-Improved the look of the water around Monitoring and Water Treatment area
I will say that I'm still unsure about shipping... and when I say unsure I mean, it looks pretty as hell... but plays like ass... its such a difficult room to navigate, you NEED your map open to know where exits are and if you have your map open, you are more likely to lose an engagement should you be ambushed from one of the plethora of ambush locations.
Shipping kills the map imo. everything else is great, I like the look and it feels as though it will play well... but that one room just really makes me not want to play... or if I do play, I will always stay away from it.
Maybe removing the first vent from Cargo to Shipping might help too. I just wanna see more games before I change this stuff...with Marines who know the map, who know how to use the crates in Shipping and Cargo to get up on the conveyor and in the vent.
Also regarding navigation maybe I can do something more with the floor to direct players. The exits in Shipping are pretty obvious now, imho, due to Signs, Lighting (brightness and color) and even the green plants behind the broken window on the left immediatly stand out. But they are partly covered by containers and crates obviously.
The Need to open your map is a mood point for the balance of the room once you've learned that room.