ns2_origin

pSyk0mAn

Thanks for the suggestions moultano. It's always nice to get a different, fresh view on things from someone, who doesn't really know the map yet.
Sometimes I wish my memory was erased for 1 day just to play the map and see all those not so well done things, I'm kinda used to now and don't notice anymore

I've made the suggested changes and spiced up the Laser Drilling floor with some dirt decals and additional lights too.

moultano

OMG where do I go? I figured it out after a second, but that's definitely a confusing blind corner.

Gameplay wise, I'm sure this has already been PTed a lot, but I feel like lots of hallways in the west of the map are too narrow to effectively fight in. As a marine I feel like I'll get eaten immediately, and as an alien I feel like I'll easily eat anyone who comes in. Water treatment is the most significant example I think. I haven't played it enough to see whether this bears out in reality, but that's the feeling I got walking through.

pSyk0mAn

I've seen a few people going right there into the wall, so I tried to make some adjustments to the "blind corner", hopefully it helps.
Every map has narrow areas and corridors. I get it that it is uncomfortable at first but Marines need to learn the positioning for the map.
Especially the Water Treatment area needs to be Alien friendly or it would be a too powerful Phasegate location.

I've did some additional detailing and lighting changes (thanks Loki) and gameplay wise I've moved the whole Tram tunnel / Computer Lab area closer to Marine Start by making the curved tram tunnel segment a lot smaller, which reduces some travel- and rotation times.
Hoping that @Zavaro makes some changes to the rusty, old tram doors and arches, so they fit more into the actual shiny area ( no pressure )

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Detailing, yada yada
-As already mentioned, moved Computer Lab and Tram Tunnel closer to Marine start and Shipping Tunnels
-Decreased size of Smelting and the connection to Scanning to move the whole Smelting and Furnace location closer to Scanning
Both changes slightly reduce travel and rotation times and hopefully make the map appear less big

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Added a vent between Ore Extraction and Monitoring for shorter travel time across the map (not like the one before, just as short as possible)
-Opened up that little control room in Ore Extraction for the new vent entrance and possible Gorge Tunnel
-Connected both Ventilation vents for shorter travel time between Generator and Maintenance

With the recent travel time reductions on the outer lanes, Marines have an easier time on the map.
I've seen more Marine stomps too, but also due to incompetent Aliens or lack of map knowledge (Thanks to some recent streams from Schustor and Epic_vail).
Seen some complaints that some vents aren't that useful or don't reduce travel time, where needed, so I'm trying these two new vents.
These two changes improve the travel time for Aliens from one outer hive area to the other and its nearby res nodes and also Aliens starting in Ventilation to defend both naturals.
Due to the way the vents are set up, they can barely be used to ambush from "out of nowhere".

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Moved Powernode in Monitoring more into the center of the location
-Removed vent between Cargo and Lava Catwalk. This vent made various things too easy for Aliens (too close to Marine Start and Natural, parasiting from secure spot, backstabbing, escaping, yada yada). Aliens can still use the Ore -> Scanning vent to get faster to Lava Catwalk and Laser Drilling
-Added big window behind CC in Marine Start and lot of enviroment skybox stuff (still needs visual work, too many different styles mixed together)

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Removed the first vent from Shipping to Cargo (was too hard on Marines and Aliens have plenty of other means to bypass or ambush)
-Improved the area around the curved stairs from Shipping towards Cargo and the additional window gives more LOS, which hopefully makes this corridor and stairs less of a possible deathtrap in certain scenarios

BeigeAlert

Saw this on reddit today: https://redd.it/84g912 (round starts @ 3:30)

skav2

Only note I have is that I feel like cargo and the area below Biodome are 2 places that are too easy to hold with a PG. Take that with a grain of salt though, 3rd time playing the map now - once as marine and twice as alien and aliens lost all 3 times with seemingly even teams.

pSyk0mAn

If you mean Water Treatment with the area below Biodome, I agree that this spot might a bit too strong. I've seen more early PGs there, even did it myself as comm once. You can hold and block off a lot of ground.
I've opened up the other vent entrance again from Maintenance to Biodome, so it's harder for Marines in Water Treatment to block Aliens in Maintenance.
The entrance from Water Treatment side is still there and open, which Marines can use to get or shoot into the vent.

Update:
-Re-opened vent entrance from Maintenance to Biodome
-Added collision geometry around the pipes in the long curved corridor between Ventilation and Maintenance so Aliens (especially Fades) don't get semi-stuck, when blinking against them
-Crushed one bucket in Smelting room on the floor to improve this area near Furnace entrance for Gorges and Skulks during ARC scenario (Marines can no longer shoot below this bucket)
-Replaced various shadow casting lights with gobo-texture lights to improve performance.
-Added a 2nd, cleaner tramdoor and doorframe model for Tram Tunnels ( thanks Zavaro ! )
-Few visual tweaks here and there ( glowing Power Core Tower, e.g. )

Nintendows

Very small issue: Skulks can clip through this door when wall-walking

pSyk0mAn

So I made a few big changes to the layout to adress some of the issues new and experienced players have with the map.

Basicly a lot of players new to the map were confused that you couldn't go from Water Treatment to Power Core and from Ore Extraction to Scanning and vice versa (except using the vents of course), while the minimap suggested that it's just the room next door and one could get to it quickly. But no, players had to go all around through the outer hive locations or all around through the middle of the map.
This also made rotating very frustrating regarding these parts of the map.
So I added connecting corridors to these areas, rather alien friendly ones tho, to avoid too powerful PG spots or Aliens getting locked in from both sides in the outer Hive.

Update:
-Replaced more shadow casting lights with gobotextures
-Moved the Biodome res node location, harder to harass from outside, harder to defend for Marines, when they cover the Biodome/Water Treatment area with a PG.
-Added a corridor from Biodome/Water Treatment to Skylights/Xenoform
-Added a corridor from Ore Extraction to Scanning

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Created more space behind res node in Power Core (all classes can get behind now)
-Made it a bit harder for Marines to harass Biodome Hive from outside (Power Core side)
-Updated Credits in secret room..(sorry, if I forgot anyone)
Thanks to everyone helping me getting this map done; for all your support, reports and suggestions, appreciate it!

Xale

Yeah that map was amazing

Fav NS1 maps :

ns_hera (I'm currently working on it)
ns_tanith
ns_nancy
ns_origin
ns_bast

Special mention : ns_ayumi but only for the easter egg

Vetinari

We didn't really have a good match with the new changes yet, but I am still convinced the new connections were a bad move. It should now be possible to lock down 3 RTs and 1 TP with a single pg in ore. The map is a bit swiss-cheesey tbh

Kasharic

Honestly, I think the new connections were a bad idea, not for the reasons Vet has stated above (although I don't disagree with him) but because the map already had some over-connectivity issues and now they are soooooo much worse.

North to south there are now 7 connection points in the middle of the map. (10 if you include vents)

Connections-

Rooms -

Skylights - Power Core
Xenoform - Water Treatment
Shipping - Monitoring
Cargo - Monitoring
Cargo - Ore Extraction
Scanning - Ore Extraction
Scanning - Smelting room

Vents -

Water Treatment - Skylights
Xenoform - Water Treatment
Scanning - Ore Extraction

Now I know veil looks like it has a lot, but it has 5. But this is almost immediately negated by the fact that you only have 2 lanes going directly into marine start... On origin you have 4.

Laneblocking on Origin is just not possible, for either team, because there are just too many routes the other team can take, which just leads to the map being won either by total domination by the team with the superior mechanical skills, or by a cheap gorge tunnel rush.

Origin is like playing on a match on spaghetti junction, which is a shame, because I really want to like the map and I have played it a lot, I know my way around etc, visually its a great map and the rooms themselves I really like, but the over connectivity the map suffers just makes it frustrating to play for me.

pSyk0mAn

Thanks for the feedback guys, appreciate it.

I understand where you are coming from, these are valid concerns, but those new connections gonna stay.
I've already watched plenty of games since I made the changes and the pros outweight the cons for sure.

If there is really an issue with the Ore PG, I will move Scanning RT into Smelting or make Ore more alien friendly or do whatever else is needed.
Also keep in mind, Aliens can hold more RTs on this map too and usually keep the "easier" Computer Lab side free from Marine RTs, when Marines have Furnace side.
Think of this as Marines having 2 PGs around System/Nano/Sub in Veil, while Aliens have Pipeline side, with the difference that Aliens have one more RT in Origin and more angles to attack Marines from.

Jambi has 4 lanes intro Marine Start, when you compare it with the Origin layout. It also has some overconnectivity to it on the right side.
Descent has more lanes too. It's just a different style of gameplay.
Laneblocking is a valid tactic, on some maps more, on some less. Unfortunately I can't make everyone like the map and how it is played.

Mephilles

Jambi never gets more than 4 lanes though.
Also in competitive no one enjoys playing descent because of the amount of lanes (+ baserush vents)

Kasharic

@pSyk0mAn

Jambi splits into 4 lanes.
Descent splits into 5 lanes.
Veil splits into 5 lanes.
Tram splits into 3 lanes.
Summit splits into 4 lanes.
Biodome splits into 4 lanes.
Docking Splits into 4 lanes.
Caged splits into 4 lanes.

On all of those maps, Laneblocking is important. Laneblocking isn't a strat that sometimes works, its the foundations that all strats are based off of...

No map has demonstrated that 7 lanes can/would work, Though I appreciate your efforts to branch outside of the norm, I fear that it will make the map less popular.

I also understand your want to compare Origin to Veil, but the two do not compare, Veil has 2 lanes into marine base and branches to 5 lanes (with a clusterfuck vent in the middle.) Origin has 4 lanes into marine base and 7 lanes in total. Veil has been around for people to learn for 15 years, coming from NS1 it was one of the very few map layouts that actually worked with ns2, so people already had many years of practice on it... origin has 1 year of play.

I want to love Origin, I really do... but it seems like a map being made for a minimum of 12 vs 12 or higher... NS2 plays best (for me) in 8 vs 8 - 10 vs 10, so it just feels bad to me because of the sheer over-connectivity in it.

deathshroud

I like Origin, the more i play it the more i enjoy it. The map is quite overwhelming at first due to the high connectivity and abundance of rooms and corridors. Not to mention it can be difficult to see where entrances are.

However once you learn the map reasonably well there is a lot of enjoyment to be had since there are so many possible routes to take. The fact this map only has 4 tech points is a benefit due to the connectivity and would be a disaster for marines with 5 techs.

12 vs 12 or more does seem good for this map. I probably wouldnt want to play the map with 8 vs 8 but then again i dont enjoy descent, biodome or mineshaft in 8 vs 8 either.

pSyk0mAn

All valid concerns, as I said, but the thing is, I probably spectated like 10-20% (like a lot) of all Origin games or watched twitch streams of ppl playing it. So many that players start asking me wether I get notified, when Origin is being played
Aside from the usual shitgames you can witness on every map and server, there were great games and strategies and players enjoying the map. It's also played on Sudamerica server or DMD server, where it's usually 10vs10 (~2k elo games).
Also you make the 7 lanes sound worse than they are, considering how close some are to eachother or how short they are.
You might be right that this map is not for NSL play, unfortunately it never got a real chance, but it's playing better than u make it to be.
So lets just agree on not agreeing on this matter

deathshroud

If you are looking to reduce number of lanes then i would do the following..

Mephilles

My personal fault here but preferably i'd like to play every mapin 6v6. With 7 lanes that is a bit hard XD

Kasharic

pSyk0mAn wrote: »

You might be right that this map is not for NSL play, unfortunately it never got a real chance, but it's playing better than u make it to be.

Just want to note, I never once said anything about the NSL, I never consider NSL when i'm looking at maps, I'm not an admin there, Its not my job to figure out if a map is "competitively balanced". All I will ever express is personal opinion, opinions are subjective, what I like others won't and vice versa, I never mean offence (though it often doesn't look that way) and i'm always okay with people thinking differently.

I also want to note, I'm also not saying it isn't "balanced", but there is a difference between "balanced" and "fun", I personally don't find NS2 "fun" in higher than 10 vs 10 (which is why I spend most of my time spectating and not playing during SCC) Ideal play for me is 8 vs 8 or 9 vs 9. But to me, having so many lanes is not fun, its the same reason I don't enjoy Kodiak... the lanes just don't make sense.

As I've said, I really want to like Origin (I also, really want to like Kodiak)... visually the map is great and I do enjoy seeing what you do to the map, but to play on, its a connectivity nightmare for me.

deathshroud

pSyk0mAn wrote: »

All valid concerns, as I said, but the thing is, I probably spectated like 10-20% (like a lot) of all Origin games or watched twitch streams of ppl playing it. So many that players start asking me wether I get notified, when Origin is being played
Aside from the usual shitgames you can witness on every map and server, there were great games and strategies and players enjoying the map. It's also played on Sudamerica server or DMD server, where it's usually 10vs10 (~2k elo games).
Also you make the 7 lanes sound worse than they are, considering how close some are to eachother or how short they are.
You might be right that this map is not for NSL play, unfortunately it never got a real chance, but it's playing better than u make it to be.
So lets just agree on not agreeing on this matter

How things are at the moment, 20+ pop servers is the norm for ns2 and maps that play well with 20 or so people will more likely receive play time. 16 player servers are now a rarity. I see the odd 1 or 2 but not many and they are now as rare as 42 player servers. I don't think you should make maps specifically for nsl since the vast majority of people playing ns2 don't play nsl. Probably shouldn't specifically make a map for 16 or 42 people either. Aim somewhere in the middle and if it works for nsl then great, if it doesnt then dont worry. ns2_origin has imo stayed faithful to the original ns1_origin with enough changes to make it fun in ns2, no point in taking a remake of origin in a direction it was never intended to go in. Probably be easier to make a completely original map designed specifically for nsl.

I basically agree that this map shouldn't have been aimed specifically at nsl group or 16 pop servers and its a good map.

Handschuh

I really understand the confusion, that is why maybe a suggestion like that, so understanding the lanes - especially the center

I wonder if Laserdrilling needs to be that big.... in general if the Minimap looks like that ppl could understand better how it works (I think)

If there is a central way to the north between shipping and cargo, then you'd have a feeling like you walked to ventilation from cargo in ns1

- in general I tried to clean out some big areas - which aren't so big actually...

- In general I think the pink area could give this map a quite unique feeling
having 3 center areas, cargo, shipping and north of both... which - if you cannot arc everything from cargo/shipping .. it could have interesting fights... and interesting flanks if they try to arc



so... just some ideas...

pSyk0mAn

So I changed a few things, thanks to Handschuh for his suggestions.
-Removed vent from Water Treatment to Xenoform
-Combined the two exits of Shipping and Cargo into Monitoring into one
-Improved look of minimap

Kasharic

Its genuinely amazing what a few small changes can do, I look forward to testing this on Sunday.

I have no real in game basis for this suggestion, I'm just curious how it would work, but, could you move the cargo RT into the connection between cargo and shipping (obviously making that area slightly bigger to accommodate the RT.) there is just a part of me that still sees shipping and cargo as one big central room and it messes with my want for some sort of symmetry XD

The_Welsh_Wizard

Merging Shipping and Cargo probably really is the next logical step... I guess it is not easy to build a big room like that without major gameplay flaws, but it is possible. Would help continuing to "declutter" the map.

pSyk0mAn

I always wanted to merge Shipping and Cargo more...make it something similar to Falls in Biodome, though it's not only about possible gameplay flaws, but also about performance.
The lack of symmetry in the middle is triggering me slightly too, but I'm not sure it's really necessary yet. Time will tell..