Tell, me have you ever been on the bad end of an HMG rush?
If you have, and survived it, then the marines you played are nowhere near you skill.
Ok, as an alien on pubs i usually get 30-50 kills, at least 25 as just a skulk.
My clan played DW, the best in CB.
I have played on their server a lot, and **obscenity** they are good shots as marines, but I can usually take some down when I play.
BUT, they HMG rushed us, NO CHANCE, we were dead, plain and simple, now they got far, but couldn't quite break the hive, as we kept them at bay, so they just sat back, TRAPPED US IN OUR OWN HIVE(maint on eclipse), and proceed to siege our hive. One HMG at each enterance and an LMG or two
Our clan are NOT bad aliens AT ALL, infact we are pretty good.
It was ridiculus(sp?), they killed us so fast it wasn't even funny!
Oh, and about ambushing them, ROFL, forget it, they were checking EVERY place a skulk could possibly be, and most of the time, were killing us before we reached the ground/their head/the ankles. They knew where we would hide, and always checked there. The HMGs were killing us before we could get close, due to the incredible fire rate and power. Also the fact that they were not just idley walking along, they were constantly checking, and they could easily hear if we were coming, and where from. I think we were able to kill one of them in the entire game, and them another marine picked up the HMG, and it all started again!
I still stick to my theory that an HMG should not be availble 3mins into the game without any marine expansion, instead it should require an arms lab and be a mid/late game weapon. All they did was sit in their base for those first few mins, we had what, one rp up I think, I ask, IS THAT FAIR?
Fine you are correct. All of the top clans who virtually only play the LMG rush are all playing a horrible strategy that any rag tag clan can defeat. My apologies to your brilliance, I now remove myself from this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is all utter nonsense. If you were really an experienced clan player, you would have played many scrimmages by now. (although I hold my breath, since most NS "clans" don't even play scrimmages) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not really impressed with the american NS clans. I'm an European player and a very active one. Our clan used to play PCW's everyday before we took a break over christmas and the new year.
I have played closer to 30 PCW's and clanbasegames, I think i'm more experienced then the majority of all players. If you "own" marines with unupgraded skulks, then you are facing a pretty worthless marine team.
I don't know much about the american clans, but from the replays i've seen, i'm not impressed at all.
btw, I'm currently unemployed, and so are all members in my clan, so we got alot of time on our hands, and we spend quite alot of that time playing NS, so don't doubt my word when I say these things are true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, that's a hell of a statement considering that Kilmster is a member of what could be considered the second best clan in the world (they have my vote). I'm not sure which marine teams you're playing against, but the LMG rush is just as deadly as using HMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not, HMG rush is just about unstoppable, LMG rush is not, if you get a early DEF chamber, you can hold off a rushing marine team, but that means sacrifing resourceincome since you can't afford to build a early res tower, which probably results in a loss if you face a skilled marine team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense chambers are neccesary for the start, but it really doesn't slow anything down that much. You're saying the aliens are at a disadvantage? Garbage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooops, one more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know much about the american clans, but from the replays i've seen, i'm not impressed at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not interested in starting a war of continents. I have seen European clans play, and like you with American clans, I'm not overly impressed. Different styles, different ideas, etc. You claim that you are experienced, I doubt that not. However, some of our clans have played close to 200 matches/scrims, and they find the LMG rush works as well or better than the HMG rush. If you've done the same, then I offer that there are different ways to play for different clans and all are valid. If you ask me, that's a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No it's not, HMG rush is just about unstoppable, LMG rush is not, if you get a early DEF chamber, you can hold off a rushing marine team, but that means sacrifing resourceincome since you can't afford to build a early res tower, which probably results in a loss if you face a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forgive me but I'm terribly confused. First you say the LMG rush is stoppable as long as you get an early DC, but then you say that it will result in a loss if you face a skilled marine team. That doesn't sound overly stoppable. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying.
Once again I am not against the HMG rush, I have seen it, and it is extremely difficult to stop. But, in my opinion, the same can be said for the LMG rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to tell you, but if the marines make it to the hive, you are as good as dead; lmgs or hmgs.
As seraphic said, preventing the marines from reaching your hive is far more important, and this can be done very easily (with teamwork) vs marines without upgraded armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the heck are you talking about? Have I said anything like that? The only thing I have said is that LMG's are LESS efficent then HMG's and can be stopped by getting early carapace. Any alien team is raped if several marines reach your hive, but I can assure you that you die alot faster if they carry HMG's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i'm sayin is that the early DC hurts the aliens resource income, forcing them to get resources at a crawl, and getting a VERY late RES-tower, thus greatly decreasing their chances of winning.
I think we can all agree that the aliens are at a disadvantage right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Tomten+Dec 28 2002, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tomten @ Dec 28 2002, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not usually a person who whines, but I just feel like have to bring this *beaten to death* topic up again, as I really love NS and would like to see it improved.
I am aware that most player probably won't agree with what I have to say, as most of you play on public servers and don't play with a skilled and coordinated team, but please don't flame and try and come up with some constructive critizism.
Here's the main problems I see with NS right now. Keep in mind that I comment from a CLAN-PLAYERS perspective, not a PUBLIC-PLAYERS perspective.
1. Early game - skulks stand little chance versus marines without carapace. The Kharaa team is often (if not always) forced to build an early DC to be able to get carapace and to be able to even hold back the marines (can probably hurt the marines somewhat now, but not really hurt them. Since the Kharaa are forced to build a DC their income is really slow and it takes forever to build a res tower, slowing down the res income greatly.
What makes this whole thing so bad is since aliens are so weak the first minutes, marines can roam the map and hunt/kill gorges and greatly slow down them alien team, whereas the marines can still build up a base and feel pretty confident that the aliens are unable to stop them (unless the marine team sucks ofcourse).
2. Advanced Armory Upgrade is avalible to fast. HMG rush is INCREADIBLY powerful and almost impossible to stop, even with lv 3 carapace skulks die fast and it's just crazy that you can outfit two marines with HMG's just after a couple of minutes of gametime. Unless you make armslab a requirement for advanced armory upgrade, marines will continue to dominate clanwars.
3. Hive buildtime VS marine upgrades. This is something that might be changed with the 1.04 patch, but right now I feel that marines climb the tech-tree a bit faster then the Kharaa. When my clan don't HMG rush (we usually don't do it to early because we think it's pretty lame), we usually have HMG's and jetpacks even before they get the second hive up (or just get it done), which is pretty strange, since it still takes quite some time before you can go fade after you get the second hive (takes some time to get resources). I don't think our opponents ever has gotten Fades in the 20 or so PCW and clanbase games I have played...
Here's some questions that have been bugging me for a while
- I've read that marines get a larger resource income when they have more players? Why? If you want to balance the game, why not make it as simple as possible and have the same resource flow, no matter how many people that's playing?
- Why are the spawn locations on all maps so bad? They seem to encourage spawn camping, will this be improved in the 1.1 patch?
- Expansionist VS Fast Tech. If a team can't expand, they shouldn't be allowed to win. I find the res tower at the start location a pretty strange design decision, since it (at the current NS version) allows a marine team to tech to HMG's and just make a quick push towards the alien hive. Having the resourcetowers placed a couple of meters outside the alien hive and marine base would help some to make games more aggressive, and make it more important to play expansive/aggressive, since it would be harder to hold resources and just sit in base and tech...
Here's a couple of suggestions on how to balance the game
- Defensive chambers are one of the most important buildings in the game, to important in my opinion. The armor system should be rebuilt. Carapace should a starting upgrade, always avalible and improve as you build more hives. At one hive a LV1 Carapace skulk should take 14 LMG bullets and at two hives it should take 17. To compensate for the somewhat weaker skulks at first and second hive, you be able to get DC, MC or SC, to give a wider array of chooice in earlygame and make it possible to compete no matter what playstyle you have. This might be unbalancing at a glance, but if you tweak the DC chamber upgrades a little, I think this would make the game easier to balance in the future, as DC's carapace upgrade is far to important for gamebalance right now.
- Kharaa Resource Pool. The current system REALLY limits the option for early game. Because all resources are shared, you want to fill up the RP as soon as possible, so the gorge get more res for the time. This results in no player EVER playing as a lerk before the second hive comes up. I think this is pretty boring. I suggest that you consider splitting the resource pool and make it so that gorges have a resource pool of their own, that's only shared with other gorges. This would give ordinary aliens more option to how they would like to spend their resources, since they wouldn't draw resources from the gorges resource pool. I also suggest that gorges and ordinary aliens would be able to trade resources within their own resourcepools. So a Gorg would be able to give resources to another gorg, while a ordinary skulk could give res to any other "warrior" kharra. With this resource system it would be possible to spend your resources more efficent, get more options to how you want to play, and get more tactics <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only con I could see with this resourcesystem is that it wouldn't hurt as much to die as a gorg, but you could always add a penalty so that 10 res is withdrawn from the gorg resourcepool everytime a gorg dies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think it would be hard at all to balance either, just take the current system, and let the "gorg" resourcepool recive resources at the same rate the gorges out on the field recieve resources in the current NS version.
Comments are most welcome, but please don't flame <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw, I'm swedish, so don't complain on my l33t writing skills <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've made this complain to everyone here, they just don't understand that when someone can aim MARINE=WIN
Damn it, I retract my statement about leaving this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Anyway, I agree that an early DC hurts the aliens' resource income, which is one of the many reasons we think the LMG rush is an excellent strategy. What I was getting at is that you, yourself, claimed that the LMG rush will generally result in a loss for the aliens as long as they are playing a skilled marine team. I agree, on the other hand, that the HMG rush wil generally result in a loss for the aliens as long as they are playing a skilled marine team. So, I offer you this:
Yes, the aliens are at a distinct disadvantage, I won't speak for the European clans, but we generally feel here that two clans, of equal strength, will both win as marines 99% of the time.
The difference in our opinion, is that I believe that limiting the HMG early in the game doesn't help out enough, because the LMG rush will still be usable. What I proposed earlier was that scanner sweep be either increased in cost (massively) or removed entirely. The reason: I've seen good alien teams beat rushing marines that don't scanner sweep like it was clockwork. The skulks have, in my opinion, a sizeable advantage if they can ambush unsuspecting marines. This is impossible (or at least nearly) because of the marine commanders spamming scanner sweep.
My clan doesn't rush in with HMG's that fast either, we expand fast, REALLY fast, we like to play it safe, but we can still easily get HMG's before the aliens are even close to getting a second hive. It's a question about playstyle, but fast HMG's is to strong on the right hands, players with impeccable aim are unstoppable with HMG's, when facing first hive aliens. The european clan DW is a good example of this. When we played vs them they really didn't have ANYTHING going for them, they didn't even have a RES tower, but somehow managed to get two HMG's, then just procceded to take out our hive, while we were building the second one. We managed to take out a couple of marines, but some survived, and just owned us with the HMG's.... It was so silly, because you shouldn't be able to pull of a win I you have no RES towers, no map control, no nothing. There shouldn't be a "weapon of win game", not until you got something equally strong of your own, like fades and lerks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the aliens are at a distinct disadvantage, I won't speak for the European clans, but we generally feel here that two clans, of equal strength, will both win as marines 99% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Tomten+Dec 30 2002, 01:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tomten @ Dec 30 2002, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to re-iterate, but hmg marines are just as much skulk bait as before. You don't even need hmgs to rush a hive, lmgs are just fine; you are really only wasting rps, cause the marines would die the same way, one circumstance or another.
If they are unupgraded marines, toting hmgs, they will likely not make it to the hive. A basic LMG rush is quite a bit more effective, waiting to tech to hmgs before attacking is kind of silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are wrong.
LMG rushes can be stopped with carapace, when skulks get LV1 Carapace they can hold back LMG marines, once they get more carapace, they start winning over unupgradeded marines. HMG's can kill any skulk easily, no carapace or carapace. HMG's can easily come into play before you have the second hive up, therefore it's unbalancing, since they are supposed to be a counter for fades and other heavy Kharaa, not as a counter to skulks.
Here's how I think it is.
> standard marine vs uncarapaced skulk = marine win
> standard marine vs lv1 carapaced marine = skulk can win, but marine is still a bit stronger
> standard marine vs lv2 carapaced skulk = skulk is a bit stronger, almost equal
> standard marine vs lv3 carapaced skulk = skulk most often win
> armor and LMG upgraded marine = pretty even, marine probably wins more often
when the HMG's come into play, they just screw up balance, any play who can't see that is either
a) stubborn
b) stupid
c) newbie<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you play in low skill servers
I've been saying this for a long time LMG>3-4 skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you play in low skill servers
I've been saying this for a long time LMG>3-4 skulks <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about clanplay, on public it's easy to own marines, with carapace it's possible to take on several marines at once, agreed .
This has totally degenerated into a "My **obscenity** is bigger than yours!" thread...
"Well, I can kill 75000 Skulks with one HMG clip with no backup!" "Oh yeah? I can kill 100000 HMG Marines as a Skulk with only ONE health and NO armour!"
Catgirl, I partially agree, there has been precious few comment regarding my other suggestions, mostly talk about LMG and HMG's <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, I think the thread ended up being pretty civil after a shakey start <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teepo+Dec 28 2002, 12:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teepo @ Dec 28 2002, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although I have felt the sting of this tactic it is risky to pull off. If you can kill the two marines with HMGs then they've just lost 50 some resources if they can't recover their guns. I think that the armslab requirement is a great idea because the HMG and GL were not meant for early game play (could you think of what would happen if you had fades in one minute?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not necessarily true. If the marines are remotely good, they have many marines involved in the rush. If an HMG marine dies, one of the LMG marines can pick up his weapons. The HMG is still useful because in any decent rush the commander is spamming health and ammo as needed.
An <u>organized</u> skulk defense can take down any marine rush towards the hive, as long as they attack in close quarters and surprise the marines.
Tomten, I don't know what replays you are looking at, but just because you've seen some American clans play doesn't mean you've seen them all. That's an unfair judgement.
It's the aliens job to prevent marines from expanding, and without resources you can't get HMG's.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--Tomten+Dec 31 2002, 12:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tomten @ Dec 31 2002, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->join #ng.se at Quakenet, and i'll try and setup a PCW so one of you guys can spectate.
We usually play between 19-23.00 GMT+1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Watching you play does'nt prove anything nor does watching us play. You want to prove yourself so bad then bring it. TE will be glad to take you on and show you. If you won't hold your ground in a scrim then i don't see how anything that you say can be considered valid. I hope to hear from in #thetheory @ irc.gamesnet.net
Watching you guys all play "I'm so very much more l33t than you" is tiring. And I doubt I'm the only one who thinks so.
Pulling your **obscenity** out and playing "I'm the manly man, so I'm challenging you" is hardly adding anything to the conversation. So please don't pretend it is. You want to show off. That's it.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
Try looking back through the thread. If you notice i never said anything to the effect that we are better. I simply stated a challenge. Nothing more. I never said we are better or that they are better. I simply asked for him to prove it. Talk is cheap and if you can't prove yourself they why should you be taken seriously. Science works off that same basis. You wouldnt have your computer now if it wasnt for those same principles of proving yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watching you play does'nt prove anything nor does watching us play. You want to prove yourself so bad then bring it. TE will be glad to take you on and show you. If you won't hold your ground in a scrim then i don't see how anything that you say can be considered valid. I hope to hear from in #thetheory @ irc.gamesnet.net <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no reason to "prove" myself, it was Kilmster who asked to spectate a game, I don't know what his reasons are, so why don't you ask him.
btw, it's not possible to setup a game overseas with decent pings, I don't like the idea of playing a clanwar with 200+ ping.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
edited December 2002
As i recall my name isn't kilm. I addressed you under my own pretenses. And if you can't prove what you say this thread continues to grow in its uselessness.
Also, with NS a 200 ping is nothing. If you honestly think that is laggy you need to be put on 56k for a month or two. See how laggy it can be. 200 is not laggy. NS has great netcode and to complain that the game is lagged at 200 is insane. That is no reason to skip a scrim. And if it would make you better. 1 scrim on our server and 1 on yours. That way we both get a lagged scrim.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
... then why in gods name is this thread still continuing. Someone close it the guy who started it doesn't care enough to keep track of what he is arguing. God help us all.
Comments
If you have, and survived it, then the marines you played are nowhere near you skill.
Ok, as an alien on pubs i usually get 30-50 kills, at least 25 as just a skulk.
My clan played DW, the best in CB.
I have played on their server a lot, and **obscenity** they are good shots as marines, but I can usually take some down when I play.
BUT, they HMG rushed us, NO CHANCE, we were dead, plain and simple, now they got far, but couldn't quite break the hive, as we kept them at bay, so they just sat back, TRAPPED US IN OUR OWN HIVE(maint on eclipse), and proceed to siege our hive. One HMG at each enterance and an LMG or two
Our clan are NOT bad aliens AT ALL, infact we are pretty good.
It was ridiculus(sp?), they killed us so fast it wasn't even funny!
Oh, and about ambushing them, ROFL, forget it, they were checking EVERY place a skulk could possibly be, and most of the time, were killing us before we reached the ground/their head/the ankles. They knew where we would hide, and always checked there. The HMGs were killing us before we could get close, due to the incredible fire rate and power. Also the fact that they were not just idley walking along, they were constantly checking, and they could easily hear if we were coming, and where from. I think we were able to kill one of them in the entire game, and them another marine picked up the HMG, and it all started again!
I still stick to my theory that an HMG should not be availble 3mins into the game without any marine expansion, instead it should require an arms lab and be a mid/late game weapon. All they did was sit in their base for those first few mins, we had what, one rp up I think, I ask, IS THAT FAIR?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not really impressed with the american NS clans. I'm an European player and a very active one. Our clan used to play PCW's everyday before we took a break over christmas and the new year.
I have played closer to 30 PCW's and clanbasegames, I think i'm more experienced then the majority of all players. If you "own" marines with unupgraded skulks, then you are facing a pretty worthless marine team.
I don't know much about the american clans, but from the replays i've seen, i'm not impressed at all.
btw, I'm currently unemployed, and so are all members in my clan, so we got alot of time on our hands, and we spend quite alot of that time playing NS, so don't doubt my word when I say these things are true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, that's a hell of a statement considering that Kilmster is a member of what could be considered the second best clan in the world (they have my vote). I'm not sure which marine teams you're playing against, but the LMG rush is just as deadly as using HMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not, HMG rush is just about unstoppable, LMG rush is not, if you get a early DEF chamber, you can hold off a rushing marine team, but that means sacrifing resourceincome since you can't afford to build a early res tower, which probably results in a loss if you face a skilled marine team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense chambers are neccesary for the start, but it really doesn't slow anything down that much. You're saying the aliens are at a disadvantage? Garbage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I'm saying that they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know much about the american clans, but from the replays i've seen, i'm not impressed at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not interested in starting a war of continents. I have seen European clans play, and like you with American clans, I'm not overly impressed. Different styles, different ideas, etc. You claim that you are experienced, I doubt that not. However, some of our clans have played close to 200 matches/scrims, and they find the LMG rush works as well or better than the HMG rush. If you've done the same, then I offer that there are different ways to play for different clans and all are valid. If you ask me, that's a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No it's not, HMG rush is just about unstoppable, LMG rush is not, if you get a early DEF chamber, you can hold off a rushing marine team, but that means sacrifing resourceincome since you can't afford to build a early res tower, which probably results in a loss if you face a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forgive me but I'm terribly confused. First you say the LMG rush is stoppable as long as you get an early DC, but then you say that it will result in a loss if you face a skilled marine team. That doesn't sound overly stoppable. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying.
Once again I am not against the HMG rush, I have seen it, and it is extremely difficult to stop. But, in my opinion, the same can be said for the LMG rush.
As seraphic said, preventing the marines from reaching your hive is far more important, and this can be done very easily (with teamwork) vs marines without upgraded armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the heck are you talking about? Have I said anything like that? The only thing I have said is that LMG's are LESS efficent then HMG's and can be stopped by getting early carapace. Any alien team is raped if several marines reach your hive, but I can assure you that you die alot faster if they carry HMG's.
What i'm sayin is that the early DC hurts the aliens resource income, forcing them to get resources at a crawl, and getting a VERY late RES-tower, thus greatly decreasing their chances of winning.
I think we can all agree that the aliens are at a disadvantage right now.
I am aware that most player probably won't agree with what I have to say, as most of you play on public servers and don't play with a skilled and coordinated team, but please don't flame and try and come up with some constructive critizism.
Here's the main problems I see with NS right now. Keep in mind that I comment from a CLAN-PLAYERS perspective, not a PUBLIC-PLAYERS perspective.
1. Early game - skulks stand little chance versus marines without carapace. The Kharaa team is often (if not always) forced to build an early DC to be able to get carapace and to be able to even hold back the marines (can probably hurt the marines somewhat now, but not really hurt them. Since the Kharaa are forced to build a DC their income is really slow and it takes forever to build a res tower, slowing down the res income greatly.
What makes this whole thing so bad is since aliens are so weak the first minutes, marines can roam the map and hunt/kill gorges and greatly slow down them alien team, whereas the marines can still build up a base and feel pretty confident that the aliens are unable to stop them (unless the marine team sucks ofcourse).
2. Advanced Armory Upgrade is avalible to fast. HMG rush is INCREADIBLY powerful and almost impossible to stop, even with lv 3 carapace skulks die fast and it's just crazy that you can outfit two marines with HMG's just after a couple of minutes of gametime. Unless you make armslab a requirement for advanced armory upgrade, marines will continue to dominate clanwars.
3. Hive buildtime VS marine upgrades. This is something that might be changed with the 1.04 patch, but right now I feel that marines climb the tech-tree a bit faster then the Kharaa. When my clan don't HMG rush (we usually don't do it to early because we think it's pretty lame), we usually have HMG's and jetpacks even before they get the second hive up (or just get it done), which is pretty strange, since it still takes quite some time before you can go fade after you get the second hive (takes some time to get resources). I don't think our opponents ever has gotten Fades in the 20 or so PCW and clanbase games I have played...
Here's some questions that have been bugging me for a while
- I've read that marines get a larger resource income when they have more players? Why? If you want to balance the game, why not make it as simple as possible and have the same resource flow, no matter how many people that's playing?
- Why are the spawn locations on all maps so bad? They seem to encourage spawn camping, will this be improved in the 1.1 patch?
- Expansionist VS Fast Tech. If a team can't expand, they shouldn't be allowed to win. I find the res tower at the start location a pretty strange design decision, since it (at the current NS version) allows a marine team to tech to HMG's and just make a quick push towards the alien hive. Having the resourcetowers placed a couple of meters outside the alien hive and marine base would help some to make games more aggressive, and make it more important to play expansive/aggressive, since it would be harder to hold resources and just sit in base and tech...
Here's a couple of suggestions on how to balance the game
- Defensive chambers are one of the most important buildings in the game, to important in my opinion. The armor system should be rebuilt. Carapace should a starting upgrade, always avalible and improve as you build more hives. At one hive a LV1 Carapace skulk should take 14 LMG bullets and at two hives it should take 17. To compensate for the somewhat weaker skulks at first and second hive, you be able to get DC, MC or SC, to give a wider array of chooice in earlygame and make it possible to compete no matter what playstyle you have. This might be unbalancing at a glance, but if you tweak the DC chamber upgrades a little, I think this would make the game easier to balance in the future, as DC's carapace upgrade is far to important for gamebalance right now.
- Kharaa Resource Pool. The current system REALLY limits the option for early game. Because all resources are shared, you want to fill up the RP as soon as possible, so the gorge get more res for the time. This results in no player EVER playing as a lerk before the second hive comes up. I think this is pretty boring. I suggest that you consider splitting the resource pool and make it so that gorges have a resource pool of their own, that's only shared with other gorges. This would give ordinary aliens more option to how they would like to spend their resources, since they wouldn't draw resources from the gorges resource pool. I also suggest that gorges and ordinary aliens would be able to trade resources within their own resourcepools. So a Gorg would be able to give resources to another gorg, while a ordinary skulk could give res to any other "warrior" kharra. With this resource system it would be possible to spend your resources more efficent, get more options to how you want to play, and get more tactics <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only con I could see with this resourcesystem is that it wouldn't hurt as much to die as a gorg, but you could always add a penalty so that 10 res is withdrawn from the gorg resourcepool everytime a gorg dies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think it would be hard at all to balance either, just take the current system, and let the "gorg" resourcepool recive resources at the same rate the gorges out on the field recieve resources in the current NS version.
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Comments are most welcome, but please don't flame <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw, I'm swedish, so don't complain on my l33t writing skills <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've made this complain to everyone here, they just don't understand that when someone can aim MARINE=WIN
Anyway, I agree that an early DC hurts the aliens' resource income, which is one of the many reasons we think the LMG rush is an excellent strategy. What I was getting at is that you, yourself, claimed that the LMG rush will generally result in a loss for the aliens as long as they are playing a skilled marine team. I agree, on the other hand, that the HMG rush wil generally result in a loss for the aliens as long as they are playing a skilled marine team. So, I offer you this:
Yes, the aliens are at a distinct disadvantage, I won't speak for the European clans, but we generally feel here that two clans, of equal strength, will both win as marines 99% of the time.
The difference in our opinion, is that I believe that limiting the HMG early in the game doesn't help out enough, because the LMG rush will still be usable. What I proposed earlier was that scanner sweep be either increased in cost (massively) or removed entirely. The reason: I've seen good alien teams beat rushing marines that don't scanner sweep like it was clockwork. The skulks have, in my opinion, a sizeable advantage if they can ambush unsuspecting marines. This is impossible (or at least nearly) because of the marine commanders spamming scanner sweep.
Agreed.
If they are unupgraded marines, toting hmgs, they will likely not make it to the hive. A basic LMG rush is quite a bit more effective, waiting to tech to hmgs before attacking is kind of silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are wrong.
LMG rushes can be stopped with carapace, when skulks get LV1 Carapace they can hold back LMG marines, once they get more carapace, they start winning over unupgradeded marines. HMG's can kill any skulk easily, no carapace or carapace. HMG's can easily come into play before you have the second hive up, therefore it's unbalancing, since they are supposed to be a counter for fades and other heavy Kharaa, not as a counter to skulks.
Here's how I think it is.
> standard marine vs uncarapaced skulk = marine win
> standard marine vs lv1 carapaced marine = skulk can win, but marine is still a bit stronger
> standard marine vs lv2 carapaced skulk = skulk is a bit stronger, almost equal
> standard marine vs lv3 carapaced skulk = skulk most often win
> armor and LMG upgraded marine = pretty even, marine probably wins more often
when the HMG's come into play, they just screw up balance, any play who can't see that is either
a) stubborn
b) stupid
c) newbie<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you play in low skill servers
I've been saying this for a long time
LMG>3-4 skulks
use some aim
We usually play between 19-23.00 GMT+1
you play in low skill servers
I've been saying this for a long time
LMG>3-4 skulks
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about clanplay, on public it's easy to own marines, with carapace it's possible to take on several marines at once, agreed .
"Well, I can kill 75000 Skulks with one HMG clip with no backup!" "Oh yeah? I can kill 100000 HMG Marines as a Skulk with only ONE health and NO armour!"
This is not necessarily true. If the marines are remotely good, they have many marines involved in the rush. If an HMG marine dies, one of the LMG marines can pick up his weapons. The HMG is still useful because in any decent rush the commander is spamming health and ammo as needed.
Tomten, I don't know what replays you are looking at, but just because you've seen some American clans play doesn't mean you've seen them all. That's an unfair judgement.
It's the aliens job to prevent marines from expanding, and without resources you can't get HMG's.
We usually play between 19-23.00 GMT+1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watching you play does'nt prove anything nor does watching us play. You want to prove yourself so bad then bring it. TE will be glad to take you on and show you. If you won't hold your ground in a scrim then i don't see how anything that you say can be considered valid. I hope to hear from in #thetheory @ irc.gamesnet.net
My god, it's so damn good it should be put into effect right away.
Gorges are much too important a class to be treated along with the rest of your "warrior" aliens.
GJ Totem, that was a kickass idea.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
YAY GORGE POWA
Where's the smiley for "massive rolling of the eyes"?
Pulling your **obscenity** out and playing "I'm the manly man, so I'm challenging you" is hardly adding anything to the conversation. So please don't pretend it is. You want to show off. That's it.
I have no reason to "prove" myself, it was Kilmster who asked to spectate a game, I don't know what his reasons are, so why don't you ask him.
btw, it's not possible to setup a game overseas with decent pings, I don't like the idea of playing a clanwar with 200+ ping.
Also, with NS a 200 ping is nothing. If you honestly think that is laggy you need to be put on 56k for a month or two. See how laggy it can be. 200 is not laggy. NS has great netcode and to complain that the game is lagged at 200 is insane. That is no reason to skip a scrim. And if it would make you better. 1 scrim on our server and 1 on yours. That way we both get a lagged scrim.
but still is easier said than done with good aliens.