They should fix that instead of removing bhop altogether. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't get your problem really. A bhing marine is extremely loud, still he moves only maybe 10% faster than normally moving marine. The only problem might be the silent crouched bhing that needs to be addressed.
Not only marines can bunnyhop. I do bunnyhop as fade and skulk too (yes aliens can use jump to their advantage as well).
Biting a hopping marine is no problem at all for me, as I constantly jump as skulk too, I never miss him by running under him. As well it is quite hard to still hit a skulk as marine when hopping arround yourself.
Just because marines can bunnyhop does not mean they cannot act (or have to) as a team anymore. You guys think that the ability to hop arround turns a marine into a unbeatable rambo monster able to kill 5 skulks in a row and then kniving the onos, sorry that is just amazingly stupid.
The only argument that is actually left might be that bhing marines is unrealistic (then go play CS if you want 100% realism) or looks silly (oh wow, i thin onos looks silly too, let's remove them)
Stop whining and learn to use jump to your advantage as well.
Don't 'cha just love those who like to verbally 'bully' people who criticize BHing?
The fact of the matter is that in tihs game the skulk was DESIGNED to be faster than the marine.
Put a skulk and marine side-by-side. Say go. Watch them run. (both WITHOUT jumping) Who is faster?
The skulk. Why?
...because the game was DESIGNED that way.
Now take that same marine and have him BH against a running skulk. You'll notice that they both move at the same speed. (or the marine might be a little faster, depends on the BH) That means a person who BH has taken a feature of the game and disabled it.
To those who would suggest that people BH to catch a BH, I say, I don't want to have to llama myself to play the game as it was designed to be played.
If the developers wanted marines to outrun skulks, they would have DESIGNED it that way. If the developers wanted marines to be able to pull a 180 and hop backwards at a speed equal to a skulk then they wouldn't have made backwards a 'walking' speed only.
If bunny hopping is so critical a 'skill' for an individual that it will greatly affect their playing style when it is removed, then they are lousy players. BHing was never meant to be part of the game. The developers have made that clear. Time for people to get over it and just play.
If you want to bunny hop, play TFC. There you can BH to your heart's content.
Well tbh I don't see a marine moving faster than something which is basically a dog on steroids as being particularly good thing, sure give the high skill people the ability to dance around newb skulks blowing them away its the faster movment thats the killer.
Say you're on eclipse trying to secure 2 hives if your can send a marine off from the start happy in the knowledge he'll reach the hive befor any alien could possibly have got there and know he'll be in his nice camping position abusing crouching hitboxes to kill the only skulk who's gone 'I'll just go check on X hive you peeps keep em locked up in base OK?'
Then you will secure that hive NPS and then it'll be a complete doddle to secure the other one.
The ability to avoid the stupid-slow Marine backwards walk by jumping forward and then turning and continuing jumping backwards is the only good "bunnyhopping" in NS. Any of that stupid "exploitation of game physics" crap to go flying around a map is retarded.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Exploiting to "go flying around a map" is bad, but exploiting the same loophole to get around NS's intentionally slow backpedal is ok? I don't think so, my friend. Backpedal is slow for a reason; you kill that skulk, or you turn and run. There's no half-way.
BH'ing is a horrible thing. Sure, it lets marines get around fast but then you could just post in the S&I (Suggestions and Idea's) forum asking if sprinting (your weapon locks and you dash) is a feasible idea. It works in FA and DoD.
Why not totally remove BH'ing, but instead limit how many times you can jump in a given time (ala Firearms stamina).
Consider that the marines wear about 50, maybe 60 lbs of armor...as normal marine. Add on that a (probably) 10 lbs gun in your arms, 10 lbs of ammo, a 5lbs pistol and a 1lbs knife. That adds up to about 70-80 lbs of extra stuff you have to carry. I don't know about you guys but I'd think it's hard to jump carrying 80 lbs. extra on top of your body weight. HA shouldn't even be able to jump.
And just because I say *no BH'ing*, this post will be flamed...so IA I pity da foo who has to flame to prove a point.
At the risk of being somewhat psychoanalytical here...
begin rant
I think the underlying problem is that HL Multiplayer (and, indeed, just about any other FPS Multiplayer game) traditionally emphasizes individual achievement. The people playing the game want to "win" the game, because that's what games are about.
For the aliens here, they get individual scores. Individual heroics are encouraged and pay off marvelously. Thus, an alien gets more of a sense of "winning" when he performs well.
For the marines, a certain degree of that individuality is given up. Marine individual scores are less important. You have to win as a team, or you lose.
The players I've typically seen bunny-hopping all around the map are the same ones who ask for Jetpacks and shotguns so they can "take out the hive" by themselves. They don't want to be on a team. They want to play the game and win. For themselves. They want to show off.
They don't want to TAKE ORDERS from the Commander, which is in all likelihood some teenager from Iowa who is no doubt weaker and shorter and skinnier than they are in real life. They want to drown him out with their booming manly voices on their microphones, demanding their shotgun and HA now or they will vote him out of the chair and do it themselves.
They don't want to be BOTHERED welding the armory. They are halfway to a hive as soon as the game starts and you had better drop ammo on them NOW or else.
They have things to do.
And don't even *suggest* that they play an alien once in a while. Gasp. They play the marines because the marines get big guns. And the guns make gun noises. Bang bang bang. Shoot the bad aliens and act like a big tough man.
Big badda boom.
And look at all the noob marines who can't even be bothered to learn the leet skill of bunny hopping. Look at them, the newbies, running in a straight line, instead of hopping down the corridor like our leet marine. His bunny hopping is clear evidence to the others that he is an Alpha Male, that he is not a newbie, that he is BETTER THAN YOU.
It's going to take more than removing bunny-hopping to get rid of this mentality.
This type of discussion comes up all the time. Here is what it is: The exploiters versus the players. Yeah, <b>exploiters</b> and players. In this case, the bunny hoppers. They have an argument for everything to defend their position. Problem is every argument is full of holes. Let's look at the common ones in this thread.
<i>"Bunny Hopping is a skill."</i> Yes, it is. So is figuring out and learning how to reliably tickle any other exploit in the game. Doesn't make it legal within the scope of the game. People who use this argument often rely upon the argument that "if it isn't supposed to be there they would have programmed against it." What these people realize is that it is impossible for a programmer before general release to anticipate every possible interaction within their game. For single-player games problems of this nature aren't often major since it only affects one player's game play. Multi-player is a different matter. Furthermore even small bugs and unintended behaviors become exceptionally large problems when more and more players play the game at the same time. Be that as it may it doesn't change the nature of the beast. It is a bug. Using said bug is an exploit. Whether or not it takes skill to use said bug is immaterial.
<i>"Removing bunny hopping will slow down the game. Look at CS! It's slow now!"</i> Yeah, it's real slow. It takes about 30 seconds to get from one end of a level to another on even the largest of levels. de_pirenasi, de_chateau, etc... not that these people know what the newer levels look like. Time to engagement in CS on some levels is less than 5 seconds. On the biggest of levels it is, at most, 12 aren't at extreme oppposite corners. An entire round of CS can be over, in theory, in under 30 seconds of both teams stick together and they both pick routes where they clash spectacularly. I've played CS since Beta 4, CS is no slower now than it is back then. It is still one very fast game that rewards people who listen, who know the levels, who know the weapons and who know how to handle different situations. I think that is exactly what will happen in NS.
<i>"Removing bunny hopping will reduce the skill needed to play the game."</i> No, it won't. It didn't in CS and it won't here. It will <b>alter</b> the skill set needed and in many cases, broaden it. Let's take the CS example again. You figure out someone who doesn't bunny-hop, wall-run or any other speed movement and rarely jumps unless needs to maintained a positive ratio against people who had more "skill" than him. Look at the paragraph above. "...that rewards people who listen, who know the levels, who know the weapons and who know how to handle different situations." Those, too, are skills. Just because against any given opponent I was a little slower than they were to engagement didn't and might've been a little slower on reactions (old fart that I am) doesn't mean that my other skills didn't come into play. I knew I was slower. I knew I'd not get the drop on people unless I set-up the drop. I'd hear them coming and since I knew the level, knew about where they were by listening, knew the capabilities of my weapons, had a guess of what weapon they had (depending on the last 2-3 rounds of win/loss) I had an idea of where they were going and where I could best set myself up for a win. Those are all skills that are aquired for each game and bunny hopping has no focus on that at all. In fact most bunny hoppers I've met rely on ther 'twitch' skills so much that when they are set-up for a drop what's the first thing they yell? "Camper!" Nevermind that I've roamed over half the level and came back to that spot before I heard them because I'm not running around like a headless chicken I must have sat in that spot for a minute and a half for them to wander by. Yeah, right. Maybe if they exercised the other skills more they'd be more well rounded players.
<i>"NS isn't a realism mod! It can't be. We're fighting aliens and aliens aren't real! If you want real, go play CS!"</i> You're right, aliens aren't real. However just because the game has one unreal element of it doesn't mean that other elements can and must forgo realism. NS is about a near-future possible reality where humanity close to the capabilities we have now engages an alien foe. The important part in that statement when it comes to bunny-hopping is "where humanity close to the capabilities we have now." Furthermore the basic laws of physics are being simulated in this game. While some consessions must be made (higher than normal jumps which can be explained by low gravity on ships) others don't have to be. Just because your pet move happens to be one that is counterproductive doesn't mean that it should remain. Nor does pointing out the other unrealistic things that are present <b>with a reason and not just a bug</b> constitute a valid argument for the pet move to remain.
All in all the notion that using an exploit in the physics model is somehow a needed skill and that the game will come crashing down without it is inane. It ignores the many other skills needed, the total ambiance and flavor of the game, the advances it makes in gaming in general. It boils down to people not wanting their cheat removed. I've seen it far too many times. I've seen it in WWIIOL when they prevented friendly troop carriers from picking up enemy troops and when they had an auto-logout for dead vehicles. I've seen it in AC when particular bugs in the client and server allowed a character to become virtually invincible while moving. It was a "skill" that every PKer needed to know otherwise they were dead and removing it would ruin the game. I've seen it in CS when bunny-hopping was removed. I've seen it in pretty much every multiplayer game since Doom. In every case it is the same thing. Exploiters don't want their favorite pet bugs removed. They were bugs. Using them is an exploit. The arguments have not changed in almost 15 years of gaming. And you know what? Games are still being made and get better. They get better because these bugs <b>are removed.</b> Either you adapt with the newer generation of games or you are left behind. If you choose the latter, I'll not shed a tear as there are more gamers to take your place. Until one or the other happens, though, please, stop with the tired old arguments. Bugs, exploit, case closed.
Amen. another good example, AK47 no recoil exploit for FA 2.6 - lotta people didn't want it changed, but it did and now people don't **** about being killed by the '47 anymore.
I can only imagine about what the game would be like if the people who are spending so much time on honing their jumping and spinning at the same time skill instead practiced on their teamwork.
Skill is good, but NS is about smarts and teamwork. The guy who thinks to look up in case a Skulk is in the vent over his head will go further than the guy who can accelerate by making an inhuman series of leaps.
bunny hopping a skill? (let me demonstrate why its not)
press spacebar, depress spacebar. repeat.
turning on the ceiling fan a skill?
grab string, pull sting, let go of string. repeat. (hey, theres more steps. I should join the olympics)
some may argue that in bhing you need to be able to continue to aim. well when turning on the fan sometimes i need to continue to talk and not look at the actual action on turning it on. all at the same time. i didnt need to practice this nor do i need to practice bunny hopping. keeping aim while jumping around like a moron is eye hand coordination (which is a skill). If you want to say eye hand coordination is a skill so be it but bunny hoppin is not.
I still don't see how bunny hopping is a skill, ok maybe in some games it useful and appropriate, but even if it is a skill then its not appropriate for NS.
As for Combat Bunny hopping, I do it, but I dont think of it as skill, actually I think it makes the game pretty poor, as far as I know the only way combat bh has been removed in by putting a heart rate in like day of defeat, so the more you jump the lowever you can jump (until ur heart slows down again), But I dont know how this would fit into NS, you certainly shouldnt be as unfit as you are in Day of Defeat.
You still confuse what gets fixed. jumping in general wont get changed, but an exploit where you can approx tripple your speed through jumping will. its an old HL engine bug. in CS it was called "Strafejump". You still can jump to avoid bites and jump on ceilings and such.
Protip: bhop is not en exploit, it is a coded manuever in HL... if it was an expoit I get this little feeling that Valve would have taken it out. I hear the've been patching HL lately =/.
I Bet that every person that wants bhop taking out cannot do it. Omg it's not realistic. Do you realy give a ****, it's a game about space marines and aliens with nanotech armor, jetpacks, aliens that shoot unlimited amounts of fluid... etc.
And for the rest of you newbies.. bhop != jumping you can still bunny hop in CS (no speed increase) , you can't jump around anymore.
If any studder stepping is added when you land, or stamina ALA DoD, skulking will become so incredibly easy the marines will have 0 chance at all once they get lvl 3 def.
BTW this "combat bunnyhopping" or whatever it is, if the person is aiming at you when he is shooting.... he isn't bunny hopping. There is a very specific mouse movement you have to do to get any speed of the jump and tracking a skulk isn't it. All these newbies need to stop bitching that people took time to learn something they diden't and wow, what they took the time to learn gives them an advantage. Stop being such whiners and learn to do it yourself.
[edit]
NS bunnyhopping doesen't alter the game, unlike in CS where bunnyhopping T could beat the CTs to B site on dust. There is no initial sprint in NS, you could argue for a resource rush. But even then marines are weakest while building. So getting to the nodes faster will leave them more open to death when the skulks get there later.
[editx2]
No you can't "double or triple your speed" maby at most you get a 30-40% increase in speed... if that. Once again.. this is not CS bunny hopping. And for the argument that marines get to places faster, sure they get there faster but they have less res when they get there, so if you bhop to the hive on a marine rush that could cost you 1 or 2 health packs which could be the difference between all the marines dying or all the aliens dying.
I think it just takes some realism. Like someone said dont want to be skipping along like schoolgirls. rofl. But honestly the whole time ive played no-1 really bothers with it. Including me. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
joevGiving grief... With a smile.Join Date: 2002-07-20Member: 977Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--Cotillion+Jan 12 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cotillion @ Jan 12 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If flayra doesnt want it in his game then so be it.
Im quite open to what most people may claim as exploits or unfair but if it takes skill and is available for everyone to use then its a good thing in my opinion.
But the people on these forums, I find it hard to believe that thier intentions are anything other that spitefull jealousy of other players abilities<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> By your reasoning, one could equally argue that installing a wallhack is a 'skill'. Should wallhacks therefore be allowed?
Of course not.
Your arguement is fundamentally flawed because the 'skill' you talk about is a skill in exploiting a bug in the game engine. This 'flaw' was never intended and is being fixed.
Likewise the addition of VAC will (somewhat) hamper those with 'skills' in exploiting other 'flawed' features of the game engine.
You may call it skill all you want, but to the rest of us *fair* players it's cheating, plain and simple. And the ability to use this cheat is being removed from you. Cope.
joevGiving grief... With a smile.Join Date: 2002-07-20Member: 977Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--FatKao+Jan 13 2003, 09:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FatKao @ Jan 13 2003, 09:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Protip: bhop is not en exploit, it is a coded manuever in HL... if it was an expoit I get this little feeling that Valve would have taken it out. I hear the've been patching HL lately =/. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is a fundamental element in the HL engine that cannot be changed except in the mod code. To do otherwise in HL itself would no doubt screw things up for other mods that don't use 'realistic physics' (e.g. Ricochet). That, I would guess is the reason why HL itself has not had it removed.
You might note that VALVE have blocked this exploit in their two main Mod's - CS and DoD. So clearly VALVE *do* see it as a bug/exploit in the context of those mods.
NS, like CS and DoD uses a 'realistic game physics' paradigm. If you want bouncy bouncy speedy uppy DM style play go play UT2K3 or Q3 and learn to rocket propell yourself. NS is not the mod/game for you.
joevGiving grief... With a smile.Join Date: 2002-07-20Member: 977Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--FatKao+Jan 13 2003, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FatKao @ Jan 13 2003, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also if this is such a horrible cheat, why dosen't ANY of the TFC leagues outlaw bunny hop?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> a) Prehaps It's become acceptable in TFCland and besides is nigh on impossible to police. So they just grin and bear it. That's their problem, not ours.
b) Because there hasn't been a new version of TFC in eons with it blocked off? (TFC2.. where are you?)
<!--QuoteBegin--NoImagination+Jan 12 2003, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NoImagination @ Jan 12 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can also change to marine as alien and kill hives as commander. I want those things out too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> stopcommandermode and the inventory change while commander trick are both taken care of in 1.04. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--FatKao+Jan 13 2003, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FatKao @ Jan 13 2003, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also if this is such a horrible cheat, why dosen't ANY of the TFC leagues outlaw bunny hop?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually, they did ban it for some time... this was before valve introduced the 170% cap on bhopping, at which point, leagues didn't see a reason to keep the no bhopping rule.
excellent posts by ninjaburger and greydmiyu! very well written and expressed. i agree 100% with both of you.
FatKao wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No you can't "double or triple your speed" maby at most you get a 30-40% increase in speed... if that. Once again.. this is not CS bunny hopping. And for the argument that marines get to places faster, sure they get there faster but they have less res when they get there, so if you bhop to the hive on a marine rush that could cost you 1 or 2 health packs which could be the difference between all the marines dying or all the aliens dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from a quick bhopping run, it felt like i was doing well over twice the normal speed. kinda hard to tell with everything wizzing by me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As to bunny hopping being an intentional feature or not: i'm pretty sure the manual does not mention it. HL Bunny hopping was inherited form the old Quake/Quakeworld engine, and it was not by design back then. So it's just an exploitable characteristic of the engine.
Also i don't understand why some people seem to think it is such an important factor. It's as though people rely primarily on bunny hopping in order to be effective.
i say be gone, strafe-jumping and endless hopping up and down.
The only time I saw someone bunnyhop that I thought was acceptable was a fellow that belonged to "Clan Kangaroo". <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--NinjaBurger+Jan 12 2003, 12:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NinjaBurger @ Jan 12 2003, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We will all look like newbies running in straight lines everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realize that this is the weakest, stupidest argument for Bunny-hopping in the entire universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's roughly as weak an argument as complaining about bunnyhopping "because it looks silly" or making irrational comments regarding ferrets.
To the large number of people who seem to believe bunnyhopping is equivalent to an instant win "Nuke the other team" button, please see the following thread for details of what is actually possible with bunnyhopping, its limitations and effect on the game. Before you post about how marines will be flying around the map faster than lurks and killing hives just by ramming into them if we don't remove hopping immediately.
Jumping is mandatory for this game. It's just we should have a limit to how many times we can jump within a given timespan. Sorta like stamina but you don't know how much you have.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 13 2003, 12:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 13 2003, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's roughly as weak an argument as complaining about bunnyhopping "because it looks silly" or making irrational comments regarding ferrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From "Aliens (revised NS draft)" by James Cameron
INT. COCOON CHAMBER - TIGHT ON SEVERAL WALLS AND CEILING NICHES
as they come alive. Bonelike, tubelike shapes shift, becoming emerging ALIENS. Dimly glimpsed...glints of slime. Silhouettes.
APONE Go to infrared. Look sharp people!
The squad members snap down their image-intersifier visors and bounce like bunny rabbits down the hall.
HUDSON Multiple signals. All round. Closing.
Dietrich bounces like a bunny, her flamethrower held tightly. A nightmarish silhouette materializes out of the smoke behind her! It strikes like lightning. SEIZES HER. She jumps in the air like a pogo stick and fires reflexively, wild. The jet of flame engulfs Frost nearby.
INT. APC
Ripley watches Frost's monitor go black. His bio-readouts flatten. The other screens show glimpses of shimmering infrared silhouettes of the aliens, the images bobbing and panning confusedly.
INT. COCOON CHAMBER
Vasquez nods to Drake with grim satisfaction.
VASQUEZ Let's rock.
They begin to jump up and down in the air, bouncing down the hall like bunny rabbits as they OPEN UP simultaneously, lighting up the smoke like welders' arcs.
GORMAN (voice over; static) Who's firing? I ordered a hold fire, ****!
Vasquez rips off her headset. She is riveted to the targetting screen, bouncing along like a bunny rabbit. FLASH-CRACK! An alien SCREECH from the darkness.
And the marines bounce down the hall like Peter Rabbit. Hippity-hoppity. Easter's on its way.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Ninja, I love you man. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Not only marines can bunnyhop. I do bunnyhop as fade and skulk too (yes aliens can use jump to their advantage as well).
Biting a hopping marine is no problem at all for me, as I constantly jump as skulk too, I never miss him by running under him. As well it is quite hard to still hit a skulk as marine when hopping arround yourself.
Just because marines can bunnyhop does not mean they cannot act (or have to) as a team anymore. You guys think that the ability to hop arround turns a marine into a unbeatable rambo monster able to kill 5 skulks in a row and then kniving the onos, sorry that is just amazingly stupid.
The only argument that is actually left might be that bhing marines is unrealistic (then go play CS if you want 100% realism) or looks silly (oh wow, i thin onos looks silly too, let's remove them)
Stop whining and learn to use jump to your advantage as well.
The fact of the matter is that in tihs game the skulk was DESIGNED to be faster than the marine.
Put a skulk and marine side-by-side. Say go. Watch them run. (both WITHOUT jumping) Who is faster?
The skulk. Why?
...because the game was DESIGNED that way.
Now take that same marine and have him BH against a running skulk. You'll notice that they both move at the same speed. (or the marine might be a little faster, depends on the BH) That means a person who BH has taken a feature of the game and disabled it.
To those who would suggest that people BH to catch a BH, I say, I don't want to have to llama myself to play the game as it was designed to be played.
If the developers wanted marines to outrun skulks, they would have DESIGNED it that way. If the developers wanted marines to be able to pull a 180 and hop backwards at a speed equal to a skulk then they wouldn't have made backwards a 'walking' speed only.
If bunny hopping is so critical a 'skill' for an individual that it will greatly affect their playing style when it is removed, then they are lousy players. BHing was never meant to be part of the game. The developers have made that clear. Time for people to get over it and just play.
If you want to bunny hop, play TFC. There you can BH to your heart's content.
Regards,
Savant
Say you're on eclipse trying to secure 2 hives if your can send a marine off from the start happy in the knowledge he'll reach the hive befor any alien could possibly have got there and know he'll be in his nice camping position abusing crouching hitboxes to kill the only skulk who's gone 'I'll just go check on X hive you peeps keep em locked up in base OK?'
Then you will secure that hive NPS and then it'll be a complete doddle to secure the other one.
BlueGhost
Why not totally remove BH'ing, but instead limit how many times you can jump in a given time (ala Firearms stamina).
Consider that the marines wear about 50, maybe 60 lbs of armor...as normal marine. Add on that a (probably) 10 lbs gun in your arms, 10 lbs of ammo, a 5lbs pistol and a 1lbs knife. That adds up to about 70-80 lbs of extra stuff you have to carry. I don't know about you guys but I'd think it's hard to jump carrying 80 lbs. extra on top of your body weight. HA shouldn't even be able to jump.
And just because I say *no BH'ing*, this post will be flamed...so IA I pity da foo who has to flame to prove a point.
begin rant
I think the underlying problem is that HL Multiplayer (and, indeed, just about any other FPS Multiplayer game) traditionally emphasizes individual achievement. The people playing the game want to "win" the game, because that's what games are about.
For the aliens here, they get individual scores. Individual heroics are encouraged and pay off marvelously. Thus, an alien gets more of a sense of "winning" when he performs well.
For the marines, a certain degree of that individuality is given up. Marine individual scores are less important. You have to win as a team, or you lose.
The players I've typically seen bunny-hopping all around the map are the same ones who ask for Jetpacks and shotguns so they can "take out the hive" by themselves. They don't want to be on a team. They want to play the game and win. For themselves. They want to show off.
They don't want to TAKE ORDERS from the Commander, which is in all likelihood some teenager from Iowa who is no doubt weaker and shorter and skinnier than they are in real life. They want to drown him out with their booming manly voices on their microphones, demanding their shotgun and HA now or they will vote him out of the chair and do it themselves.
They don't want to be BOTHERED welding the armory. They are halfway to a hive as soon as the game starts and you had better drop ammo on them NOW or else.
They have things to do.
And don't even *suggest* that they play an alien once in a while. Gasp. They play the marines because the marines get big guns. And the guns make gun noises. Bang bang bang. Shoot the bad aliens and act like a big tough man.
Big badda boom.
And look at all the noob marines who can't even be bothered to learn the leet skill of bunny hopping. Look at them, the newbies, running in a straight line, instead of hopping down the corridor like our leet marine. His bunny hopping is clear evidence to the others that he is an Alpha Male, that he is not a newbie, that he is BETTER THAN YOU.
It's going to take more than removing bunny-hopping to get rid of this mentality.
But it's a start.
end rant
<i>"Bunny Hopping is a skill."</i> Yes, it is. So is figuring out and learning how to reliably tickle any other exploit in the game. Doesn't make it legal within the scope of the game. People who use this argument often rely upon the argument that "if it isn't supposed to be there they would have programmed against it." What these people realize is that it is impossible for a programmer before general release to anticipate every possible interaction within their game. For single-player games problems of this nature aren't often major since it only affects one player's game play. Multi-player is a different matter. Furthermore even small bugs and unintended behaviors become exceptionally large problems when more and more players play the game at the same time. Be that as it may it doesn't change the nature of the beast. It is a bug. Using said bug is an exploit. Whether or not it takes skill to use said bug is immaterial.
<i>"Removing bunny hopping will slow down the game. Look at CS! It's slow now!"</i> Yeah, it's real slow. It takes about 30 seconds to get from one end of a level to another on even the largest of levels. de_pirenasi, de_chateau, etc... not that these people know what the newer levels look like. Time to engagement in CS on some levels is less than 5 seconds. On the biggest of levels it is, at most, 12 aren't at extreme oppposite corners. An entire round of CS can be over, in theory, in under 30 seconds of both teams stick together and they both pick routes where they clash spectacularly. I've played CS since Beta 4, CS is no slower now than it is back then. It is still one very fast game that rewards people who listen, who know the levels, who know the weapons and who know how to handle different situations. I think that is exactly what will happen in NS.
<i>"Removing bunny hopping will reduce the skill needed to play the game."</i> No, it won't. It didn't in CS and it won't here. It will <b>alter</b> the skill set needed and in many cases, broaden it. Let's take the CS example again. You figure out someone who doesn't bunny-hop, wall-run or any other speed movement and rarely jumps unless needs to maintained a positive ratio against people who had more "skill" than him. Look at the paragraph above. "...that rewards people who listen, who know the levels, who know the weapons and who know how to handle different situations." Those, too, are skills. Just because against any given opponent I was a little slower than they were to engagement didn't and might've been a little slower on reactions (old fart that I am) doesn't mean that my other skills didn't come into play. I knew I was slower. I knew I'd not get the drop on people unless I set-up the drop. I'd hear them coming and since I knew the level, knew about where they were by listening, knew the capabilities of my weapons, had a guess of what weapon they had (depending on the last 2-3 rounds of win/loss) I had an idea of where they were going and where I could best set myself up for a win. Those are all skills that are aquired for each game and bunny hopping has no focus on that at all. In fact most bunny hoppers I've met rely on ther 'twitch' skills so much that when they are set-up for a drop what's the first thing they yell? "Camper!" Nevermind that I've roamed over half the level and came back to that spot before I heard them because I'm not running around like a headless chicken I must have sat in that spot for a minute and a half for them to wander by. Yeah, right. Maybe if they exercised the other skills more they'd be more well rounded players.
<i>"NS isn't a realism mod! It can't be. We're fighting aliens and aliens aren't real! If you want real, go play CS!"</i> You're right, aliens aren't real. However just because the game has one unreal element of it doesn't mean that other elements can and must forgo realism. NS is about a near-future possible reality where humanity close to the capabilities we have now engages an alien foe. The important part in that statement when it comes to bunny-hopping is "where humanity close to the capabilities we have now." Furthermore the basic laws of physics are being simulated in this game. While some consessions must be made (higher than normal jumps which can be explained by low gravity on ships) others don't have to be. Just because your pet move happens to be one that is counterproductive doesn't mean that it should remain. Nor does pointing out the other unrealistic things that are present <b>with a reason and not just a bug</b> constitute a valid argument for the pet move to remain.
All in all the notion that using an exploit in the physics model is somehow a needed skill and that the game will come crashing down without it is inane. It ignores the many other skills needed, the total ambiance and flavor of the game, the advances it makes in gaming in general. It boils down to people not wanting their cheat removed. I've seen it far too many times. I've seen it in WWIIOL when they prevented friendly troop carriers from picking up enemy troops and when they had an auto-logout for dead vehicles. I've seen it in AC when particular bugs in the client and server allowed a character to become virtually invincible while moving. It was a "skill" that every PKer needed to know otherwise they were dead and removing it would ruin the game. I've seen it in CS when bunny-hopping was removed. I've seen it in pretty much every multiplayer game since Doom. In every case it is the same thing. Exploiters don't want their favorite pet bugs removed. They were bugs. Using them is an exploit. The arguments have not changed in almost 15 years of gaming. And you know what? Games are still being made and get better. They get better because these bugs <b>are removed.</b> Either you adapt with the newer generation of games or you are left behind. If you choose the latter, I'll not shed a tear as there are more gamers to take your place. Until one or the other happens, though, please, stop with the tired old arguments. Bugs, exploit, case closed.
Skill is good, but NS is about smarts and teamwork. The guy who thinks to look up in case a Skulk is in the vent over his head will go further than the guy who can accelerate by making an inhuman series of leaps.
press spacebar, depress spacebar. repeat.
turning on the ceiling fan a skill?
grab string, pull sting, let go of string. repeat.
(hey, theres more steps. I should join the olympics)
some may argue that in bhing you need to be able to continue to aim. well when turning on the fan sometimes i need to continue to talk and not look at the actual action on turning it on. all at the same time. i didnt need to practice this nor do i need to practice bunny hopping. keeping aim while jumping around like a moron is eye hand coordination (which is a skill). If you want to say eye hand coordination is a skill so be it but bunny hoppin is not.
bunnyhopping is lame.
argument over.
Skill?
It doesn´t require that much skill at all.
Further it is lame, it looks sh*tty and unrealistic and it is a feature which is not neccessary.
Have you ever seen a marine or Police Squad jumping around like toads?
As for Combat Bunny hopping, I do it, but I dont think of it as skill, actually I think it makes the game pretty poor, as far as I know the only way combat bh has been removed in by putting a heart rate in like day of defeat, so the more you jump the lowever you can jump (until ur heart slows down again), But I dont know how this would fit into NS, you certainly shouldnt be as unfit as you are in Day of Defeat.
I Bet that every person that wants bhop taking out cannot do it. Omg it's not realistic. Do you realy give a ****, it's a game about space marines and aliens with nanotech armor, jetpacks, aliens that shoot unlimited amounts of fluid... etc.
And for the rest of you newbies.. bhop != jumping you can still bunny hop in CS (no speed increase) , you can't jump around anymore.
If any studder stepping is added when you land, or stamina ALA DoD, skulking will become so incredibly easy the marines will have 0 chance at all once they get lvl 3 def.
BTW this "combat bunnyhopping" or whatever it is, if the person is aiming at you when he is shooting.... he isn't bunny hopping. There is a very specific mouse movement you have to do to get any speed of the jump and tracking a skulk isn't it. All these newbies need to stop bitching that people took time to learn something they diden't and wow, what they took the time to learn gives them an advantage. Stop being such whiners and learn to do it yourself.
[edit]
NS bunnyhopping doesen't alter the game, unlike in CS where bunnyhopping T could beat the CTs to B site on dust. There is no initial sprint in NS, you could argue for a resource rush. But even then marines are weakest while building. So getting to the nodes faster will leave them more open to death when the skulks get there later.
[editx2]
No you can't "double or triple your speed" maby at most you get a 30-40% increase in speed... if that. Once again.. this is not CS bunny hopping. And for the argument that marines get to places faster, sure they get there faster but they have less res when they get there, so if you bhop to the hive on a marine rush that could cost you 1 or 2 health packs which could be the difference between all the marines dying or all the aliens dying.
Like someone said dont want to be skipping along like schoolgirls. rofl.
But honestly the whole time ive played no-1 really bothers with it. Including me. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im quite open to what most people may claim as exploits or unfair but if it takes skill and is available for everyone to use then its a good thing in my opinion.
But the people on these forums, I find it hard to believe that thier intentions are anything other that spitefull jealousy of other players abilities<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By your reasoning, one could equally argue that installing a wallhack is a 'skill'. Should wallhacks therefore be allowed?
Of course not.
Your arguement is fundamentally flawed because the 'skill' you talk about is a skill in exploiting a bug in the game engine. This 'flaw' was never intended and is being fixed.
Likewise the addition of VAC will (somewhat) hamper those with 'skills' in exploiting other 'flawed' features of the game engine.
You may call it skill all you want, but to the rest of us *fair* players it's cheating, plain and simple. And the ability to use this cheat is being removed from you. Cope.
joev.
begin rant
...
It's going to take more than removing bunny-hopping to get rid of this mentality.
But it's a start.
end rant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's one of the best posts I've read here in a while.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a fundamental element in the HL engine that cannot be changed except in the mod code. To do otherwise in HL itself would no doubt screw things up for other mods that don't use 'realistic physics' (e.g. Ricochet). That, I would guess is the reason why HL itself has not had it removed.
You might note that VALVE have blocked this exploit in their two main Mod's - CS and DoD. So clearly VALVE *do* see it as a bug/exploit in the context of those mods.
NS, like CS and DoD uses a 'realistic game physics' paradigm. If you want bouncy bouncy speedy uppy DM style play go play UT2K3 or Q3 and learn to rocket propell yourself. NS is not the mod/game for you.
joev.
a) Prehaps It's become acceptable in TFCland and besides is nigh on impossible to police. So they just grin and bear it. That's their problem, not ours.
b) Because there hasn't been a new version of TFC in eons with it blocked off? (TFC2.. where are you?)
joev.
stopcommandermode and the inventory change while commander trick are both taken care of in 1.04. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
actually, they did ban it for some time... this was before valve introduced the 170% cap on bhopping, at which point, leagues didn't see a reason to keep the no bhopping rule.
excellent posts by ninjaburger and greydmiyu! very well written and expressed. i agree 100% with both of you.
FatKao wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No you can't "double or triple your speed" maby at most you get a 30-40% increase in speed... if that. Once again.. this is not CS bunny hopping. And for the argument that marines get to places faster, sure they get there faster but they have less res when they get there, so if you bhop to the hive on a marine rush that could cost you 1 or 2 health packs which could be the difference between all the marines dying or all the aliens dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from a quick bhopping run, it felt like i was doing well over twice the normal speed. kinda hard to tell with everything wizzing by me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
HL Bunny hopping was inherited form the old Quake/Quakeworld engine, and it was not by design back then. So it's just an exploitable characteristic of the engine.
Also i don't understand why some people seem to think it is such an important factor. It's as though people rely primarily on bunny hopping in order to be effective.
i say be gone, strafe-jumping and endless hopping up and down.
You do realize that this is the weakest, stupidest argument for Bunny-hopping in the entire universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's roughly as weak an argument as complaining about bunnyhopping "because it looks silly" or making irrational comments regarding ferrets.
To the large number of people who seem to believe bunnyhopping is equivalent to an instant win "Nuke the other team" button, please see the following thread for details of what is actually possible with bunnyhopping, its limitations and effect on the game. Before you post about how marines will be flying around the map faster than lurks and killing hives just by ramming into them if we don't remove hopping immediately.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=19138&st=75' target='_blank'>Jumping, optional?</a>
From "Aliens (revised NS draft)"
by James Cameron
INT. COCOON CHAMBER - TIGHT ON SEVERAL WALLS AND CEILING NICHES
as they come alive. Bonelike, tubelike shapes shift,
becoming emerging ALIENS. Dimly glimpsed...glints
of slime. Silhouettes.
APONE
Go to infrared. Look sharp
people!
The squad members snap down their image-intersifier
visors and bounce like bunny rabbits down the hall.
HUDSON
Multiple signals. All round.
Closing.
Dietrich bounces like a bunny, her flamethrower held
tightly. A nightmarish silhouette materializes out
of the smoke behind her! It strikes like lightning.
SEIZES HER. She jumps in the air like a pogo stick
and fires reflexively, wild. The jet of flame
engulfs Frost nearby.
INT. APC
Ripley watches Frost's monitor go black. His
bio-readouts flatten. The other screens show glimpses
of shimmering infrared silhouettes of the aliens, the
images bobbing and panning confusedly.
INT. COCOON CHAMBER
Vasquez nods to Drake with grim satisfaction.
VASQUEZ
Let's rock.
They begin to jump up and down in the air, bouncing down
the hall like bunny rabbits as they OPEN UP simultaneously,
lighting up the smoke like welders' arcs.
GORMAN
(voice over; static)
Who's firing? I ordered a
hold fire, ****!
Vasquez rips off her headset. She is riveted to the
targetting screen, bouncing along like a bunny rabbit.
FLASH-CRACK! An alien SCREECH from the darkness.
And the marines bounce down the hall like Peter Rabbit.
Hippity-hoppity. Easter's on its way.
_ _
/ \_/ \ <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->