Actually I tend to get very decent scores as a skulk and I don't even set r_drawviewmodel to 0. The teeth aren't THAT blinding when you bite only when you need to. Still, they're an annoyance that I'd rather see gone, but I won't really care if they stay.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+Feb 17 2003, 02:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Feb 17 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hate the fact that a model is supposed to cap someone's ability, and not actually the class itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it was in someone's sig somewhere, "newbies whine veterans adapt" or something.
I personally love the bite model, really gets me in the mood for an intense battle
OK, how about this: the middle teeth of the Skulk model are removed so that only the "fangs" on the sides of the mouth remain (and maybe some shorter teeth in the middle that don't close together when biting). This would leave about a sixth of the screen (not that little if you think about it - a third horizontally and about half vertically). That way visibility would still be reduced, but the Skulk wouldn't be completely blind. Although the thing I really want to see is a more reasonable marine muzzle flash. I mean, balance is balance, but a huge muzzle flash really doesn't add anything else to the game and is a very annoying way to balance things (where as the Skulk bite actually does look kinda cool).
Leave it as it is. It may not be a realistic viewpoint, but look at the way the skulk model climbs walls. Does anyone complain that Skulks manage stick to the ceiling <i>and move along them</i> with their backs? No? So why is the view any different?
ok, the only problem I see with the bite model is this: Your screen resolution. Its confusing, having teeth across the top and bottom of your screen, but only doing damage in a small area in the center. I think that this is where the problems really come from... between having a 1152 X 864 resolution compared to a 800 X 600 the ability to "aim" with the skulk bite decreases (at least for me).
The only thing I can think of is have a dynamic area like a "bite zone" thats visible depending on your resolution of your screen. I think thenalot less people would blame the model for the way they play.
<!--QuoteBegin--ignot+Feb 17 2003, 03:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ignot @ Feb 17 2003, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leave it as it is. It may not be a realistic viewpoint, but look at the way the skulk model climbs walls. Does anyone complain that Skulks manage stick to the ceiling <i>and move along them</i> with their backs? No? So why is the view any different? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the Skulk climbing the walls upright doesn't impair anyone's ability to bite.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Eater1+Feb 17 2003, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eater1 @ Feb 17 2003, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--ignot+Feb 17 2003, 03:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ignot @ Feb 17 2003, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leave it as it is. It may not be a realistic viewpoint, but look at the way the skulk model climbs walls. Does anyone complain that Skulks manage stick to the ceiling <i>and move along them</i> with their backs? No? So why is the view any different? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the Skulk climbing the walls upright doesn't impair anyone's ability to bite.
Eater. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the wallwalk code is one reason that the marine hitbox bugs seem to work so well. Turn off wallwalk by crouching when you go to attack, and you'll score more hits against wussy Marines trying to hitbox exploit in a corner. Same with in the vents... don't have to aim at their toes any more, but belt-buckle level helps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the Skulk climbing the walls upright doesn't impair anyone's ability to bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I think I've seen my 1000th posting from people who have a problem with how the skulk bite model <b>looks</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't the bite model that took me so long to get used to with the skulk - it was a viewpoint much lower to the ground... Once I got used to that, the obscuring teeth weren't really much of a problem.
I'd get rid of the closing teeth (it's OK to have it on the screen as a weapon indicator, just don't make it obscure as much). As a compensation, make the marine muzzle flash smaller. The current situation gives people who know the tricks more opportunities for being better than those with a standard version of NS.
I've experimented with a drawview toggle, and found that marines actually benefit more than skulks. The skulk loses hive sight. The marine loses his map (not a big loss if you have printouts) and waypoint symbols, but those waypoints still have text associated with them so you can still see them. So the skulk loses a lot of good information, the marine very little. Of course, a toggle allows you to switch whenever you want, but as I usually play aliens the disadvantages outweigh the benefits. If hivesight weren't affected, I'd use it more often.
There are two phases of fighting in any FPS: target acquisition and inflicting damage. How FOV factors into both depends on how close you are to your target. In melee range fighting, a high FOV is important in both phases so that you can at least predict where your target is going before you bite down. In ranged fighting, a high FOV is important only in target acquistion (you have to see the target before you can shoot it).
I've wondered about why the model is there in the first place. Strictly speaking from the new player's perspective, it temporarily restricts the player's field of vision and seems to induce a blind fury of biting and running around aimlessly. I believe that was the modeler's intent. Keep it as it is.
i would like a semi transparent skulk bite model (always transparent, independent on the sens) ... would say 50% would make a quite nice view and still a wonderful atmo. I also like the idea or fisheye sight, perhaps user configurable. And i like the idea to be able to switch from 1st person to 3rd person and back, because i would like the aliens to have an area-consciousness, much more than the current hive-sight or the white/red/yellow circles.
Nah... a transparent model would just look kinda... blah. I say go with the teeth thing that I suggested (smaller middle teeth). It would not only make it possible to see while biting, but it would make the mouth a bit more interesting too.
The only change I'd suggest would be to dim the view (fade it completely to black, maybe) when the mouth closes. Admittedly my only reasons for this would be (a) to foil anyone who uses drawviewmodel to help them kill (obsolete in 1.1 anyway with any luck) and (b) because chomping a lot gives me (and I get the impression I'm not the only one) a headache over time.
The basic justification behind this would be that predatory animals generally close their eyes for protection when they go in for the kill.
I'd <i>love</i> to see the aliens get walleye vision too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Feb 17 2003, 08:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 17 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thankfully you won't be 'torn' with that decision when 1.1 comes out, and the draviewmodels <b>exploit</b> is locked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, bolding certain words in your sentences does not make your argument any more valid.
That useless piece of eye-candy costs me 15-20 fps, why should I have to look at it and let it slow my comp down? Valve put the command in for a reason, it's their game first, the NS team's mod second.
<!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Feb 17 2003, 11:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Feb 17 2003, 11:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, you mean the in-mouth view? Keep it, who cares where its eyes are. Its a great idea and adds alot more uniqueness to the mod. Just shut all the nay sayers up with a nice kick in the face. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Gotta agree with this. The view from the mouth is more stylistic and anything else would look ridiculous and boring.
except for the people saying the bite model is fine (which it is ..) I have not seen one post that Monse had asked for ...
with all these people saying how bad it is and how limiting it is to gameplay (its not ...) I have yet to see one post in this entire thread that gives a <b>good</b> well thought out replacement that isn't going to look like crap and be increadibly boring.
Monse said put up or shut up, I havn't seen one person to put up .. so - you guess it.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+Feb 17 2003, 07:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Feb 17 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Totally not the case. I've been playing since day 1 of public release, and i've hated it ever since I first fired. I hate the fact that a model is supposed to cap someone's ability, and not actually the class itself.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You my friend, are entirely wrong.
The model does not hurt skilled players, as a matter of fact it adds a whole new kind of skill to the game of NS instead of just running up to a guy and biting him, the jaws model makes skilled players time their bites and dont just go around the whole room biting at marines who have to time their shots (skilled p ayers often fire in bursts or learn to track their target & predict their movement, personally, i do both just to make sure.) in order to kill a skulk. On the contrary, taking this out woul in fact cheapen the game and make it less "skilled" due to the fact that pretty much all you have to do is run up to the guy and bite him twice.
Skill? Very unlikely.
The current system makes skulks think twice before going into a room and start biting like crazy, very rarely do i ever just keep my fire button held down as a skulk, and i only do this when i know there are a lot of enemies and buildings in the room, so no matter where i bite, i know im going to hit something.
My suggestion is to leave the model as is, work on the actual 3rd person alien bite animations and the marine reload animations, the current jaw model is perfect.
I think the bite model and skulk class is excellent as it is.
As for good the good 'put ups' that is asked for... if a snout model is not an alternative, and if the lack of any model at all is not an alternative, then what is left? Third person. Most people agree that melee fighting is done best in third person. Might require more balancing, but you wanted an alternative... seems to be the only one left. Making the jaws 'smaller' could also be considered, but that could also look weird. Not to say I want it badly (I think skulks are good as they are, although the 'fish view' sounds good to me.)
So why not use the "boring" snout? Size it at about 1/3 of the screen and it would still limit the vision of the skulk considerably. And if you're really looking to use it to "balance", incorporate some kind of screen shake that mimics the thrust of an animal's head when it bites; this way, you allow the skulk to keep his orientation but still disturb its vision while attacking.
I don't even really mind the skulk teeth as is, but I always thought that that was a perfectly reasonable alternative to the current skulk bite animation.
Well...I've said this many times. It's not a cap on skill, it's a change to the skill required. It's about learning to bite when you know you're going to hit, not all the time. It's about predicting your enemies movements. On the occasions where I have tried out r_draw I've increased in kill ratio by 1.5 - 2 times. It's a free increase to my abilities as a skulk, no skill required.
Comments
It would make things so much better.
I think it was in someone's sig somewhere, "newbies whine veterans adapt" or something.
I personally love the bite model, really gets me in the mood for an intense battle
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although the thing I really want to see is a more reasonable marine muzzle flash. I mean, balance is balance, but a huge muzzle flash really doesn't add anything else to the game and is a very annoying way to balance things (where as the Skulk bite actually does look kinda cool).
Eater.
Your screen resolution.
Its confusing, having teeth across the top and bottom of your screen, but only doing damage in a small area in the center. I think that this is where the problems really come from... between having a 1152 X 864 resolution compared to a 800 X 600 the ability to "aim" with the skulk bite decreases (at least for me).
The only thing I can think of is have a dynamic area like a "bite zone" thats visible depending on your resolution of your screen. I think thenalot less people would blame the model for the way they play.
$.o2
Because the Skulk climbing the walls upright doesn't impair anyone's ability to bite.
Eater.
Because the Skulk climbing the walls upright doesn't impair anyone's ability to bite.
Eater. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the wallwalk code is one reason that the marine hitbox bugs seem to work so well. Turn off wallwalk by crouching when you go to attack, and you'll score more hits against wussy Marines trying to hitbox exploit in a corner. Same with in the vents... don't have to aim at their toes any more, but belt-buckle level helps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I think I've seen my 1000th posting from people who have a problem with how the skulk bite model <b>looks</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've experimented with a drawview toggle, and found that marines actually benefit more than skulks. The skulk loses hive sight. The marine loses his map (not a big loss if you have printouts) and waypoint symbols, but those waypoints still have text associated with them so you can still see them. So the skulk loses a lot of good information, the marine very little.
Of course, a toggle allows you to switch whenever you want, but as I usually play aliens the disadvantages outweigh the benefits. If hivesight weren't affected, I'd use it more often.
I've wondered about why the model is there in the first place. Strictly speaking from the new player's perspective, it temporarily restricts the player's field of vision and seems to induce a blind fury of biting and running around aimlessly. I believe that was the modeler's intent. Keep it as it is.
I also like the idea or fisheye sight, perhaps user configurable.
And i like the idea to be able to switch from 1st person to 3rd person and back, because i would like the aliens to have an area-consciousness, much more than the current hive-sight or the white/red/yellow circles.
Eater.
The basic justification behind this would be that predatory animals generally close their eyes for protection when they go in for the kill.
I'd <i>love</i> to see the aliens get walleye vision too.
Again, bolding certain words in your sentences does not make your argument any more valid.
That useless piece of eye-candy costs me 15-20 fps, why should I have to look at it and let it slow my comp down? Valve put the command in for a reason, it's their game first, the NS team's mod second.
Gotta agree with this. The view from the mouth is more stylistic and anything else would look ridiculous and boring.
except for the people saying the bite model is fine (which it is ..) I have not seen one post that Monse had asked for ...
with all these people saying how bad it is and how limiting it is to gameplay (its not ...) I have yet to see one post in this entire thread that gives a <b>good</b> well thought out replacement that isn't going to look like crap and be increadibly boring.
Monse said put up or shut up, I havn't seen one person to put up .. so - you guess it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You my friend, are entirely wrong.
The model does not hurt skilled players, as a matter of fact it adds a whole new kind of skill to the game of NS instead of just running up to a guy and biting him, the jaws model makes skilled players time their bites and dont just go around the whole room biting at marines who have to time their shots (skilled p ayers often fire in bursts or learn to track their target & predict their movement, personally, i do both just to make sure.) in order to kill a skulk. On the contrary, taking this out woul in fact cheapen the game and make it less "skilled" due to the fact that pretty much all you have to do is run up to the guy and bite him twice.
Skill? Very unlikely.
The current system makes skulks think twice before going into a room and start biting like crazy, very rarely do i ever just keep my fire button held down as a skulk, and i only do this when i know there are a lot of enemies and buildings in the room, so no matter where i bite, i know im going to hit something.
My suggestion is to leave the model as is, work on the actual 3rd person alien bite animations and the marine reload animations, the current jaw model is perfect.
2. R_drawviewmodel VERY unbalencing.
3. Exploiters will be raped and then shot. (and yes.. jumping to bypass marine backpedal speed qualifies)
As for good the good 'put ups' that is asked for... if a snout model is not an alternative, and if the lack of any model at all is not an alternative, then what is left? Third person. Most people agree that melee fighting is done best in third person. Might require more balancing, but you wanted an alternative... seems to be the only one left. Making the jaws 'smaller' could also be considered, but that could also look weird. Not to say I want it badly (I think skulks are good as they are, although the 'fish view' sounds good to me.)
I don't even really mind the skulk teeth as is, but I always thought that that was a perfectly reasonable alternative to the current skulk bite animation.