whatever flayra wants, it's his game. If he doesnt change it and locks it to 1, i'll learn a new way to dominate the scoreboards.
Actually i'll tell you the truth on how I killed that many marines. I come in from the vent behind the base when I hear people using the armory. Then I use my knowledge of jumping + strafing to avoid being hit. If i'm lucky, i can kill the 2-3 people loading up on ammo. The rest of your team was out elsewhere.....thats when I went for the IP's.
Now that entire game, I killed 30 people but never took down an IP. Here is what I did...you nubs that call me exploiting might wanna take some notes. When 2 IP's are next to each other, they spawn marines in one after the other in sequence.
Left, right, left, right, left, right, etc etc etc. It's guaranteed that if a marine spawned in 1 of the ip's the next will spawn in the other one. So I stay TO THE SIDE of them, and wait for a marine to spawn. Since I am already attacking all I do is jump and i instantly hit them. After hitting them once I run after em and just chomp one more time. 98% of the time I nail em the second time. The other 2% the marine jumps and winds up half way across the map ^^. After that guy is dead, I now line myself up with the side of the other IP. Wait for him to spawn, jump, follow, chomp...line myself up with the other ip, jump, follow, chomp, repeat.
So me advertising that the only reason I got that score was because of no models is slightly inaccurate. I used my knowledge of the game, other then my knowledge of basic console commands to kill marines. Like I said, if its changed, it wont be that hard to figure out.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 17 2003, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 17 2003, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Terah+Feb 18 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terah @ Feb 18 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people don't want the bite model, they will find ways around it, simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When these people are installing nobite.dll do you think they will finally realise they are cheats? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's legitimate customization vs enforced eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The customization is no longer legitimate when the mod-maker says 'no, it's an exploit'. It stops being a customization and becomes a cheat.
Actually, I was attacking through the same vent you were. I didn't kill that many because I was trying to make it up to their command console and other structures and take those out, which I nearly succeeded before the main onslaught. So while you were racking up the frags I was sacrificing deaths to further the progress of our team. In fact, I believe I served as a distraction a couple times for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+Feb 18 2003, 02:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Feb 18 2003, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> whatever flayra wants, it's his game. If he doesnt change it and locks it to 1, i'll learn a new way to dominate the scoreboards.
Actually i'll tell you the truth on how I killed that many marines. I come in from the vent behind the base when I hear people using the armory. Then I use my knowledge of jumping + strafing to avoid being hit. If i'm lucky, i can kill the 2-3 people loading up on ammo. The rest of your team was out elsewhere.....thats when I went for the IP's.
Now that entire game, I killed 30 people but never took down an IP. Here is what I did...you nubs that call me exploiting might wanna take some notes. When 2 IP's are next to each other, they spawn marines in one after the other in sequence.
Left, right, left, right, left, right, etc etc etc. It's guaranteed that if a marine spawned in 1 of the ip's the next will spawn in the other one. So I stay TO THE SIDE of them, and wait for a marine to spawn. Since I am already attacking all I do is jump and i instantly hit them. After hitting them once I run after em and just chomp one more time. 98% of the time I nail em the second time. The other 2% the marine jumps and winds up half way across the map ^^. After that guy is dead, I now line myself up with the side of the other IP. Wait for him to spawn, jump, follow, chomp...line myself up with the other ip, jump, follow, chomp, repeat.
So me advertising that the only reason I got that score was because of no models is slightly inaccurate. I used my knowledge of the game, other then my knowledge of basic console commands to kill marines. Like I said, if its changed, it wont be that hard to figure out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i and countless ppl can get 30-10 as skulk with the model.. it doesnt make much of a difference
plus.. adding the "bite" and being able to cope means ur an adaptable person...
[Way off-topic] I <b>was</b> on the verge of posting what amounted to a well written flame/rant on SoBe.Dragon, but realised I was letting him get to me.
Therefore my response is, yeah, whatever. If i'm ever in the same game as you i'll make sure to join the other team.[/Way off-topic]
I think theres got to be some indication of you attacking. I can't think of a game where an offensive weapon had no visible effect on screen.
If it really bothers people that much, theres a simple upgrade already in the game for 33 res and 54 res which sorts it. One upgrade is called a lerk and the others a fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Feb 18 2003, 05:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 18 2003, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 17 2003, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 17 2003, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Terah+Feb 18 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terah @ Feb 18 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people don't want the bite model, they will find ways around it, simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When these people are installing nobite.dll do you think they will finally realise they are cheats? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's legitimate customization vs enforced eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The customization is no longer legitimate when the mod-maker says 'no, it's an exploit'. It stops being a customization and becomes a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, your sig nicely summarizes your position: "There should be limits to freedom." -G. W. (Dubya) Bush
However, it's quite inconsistent with your <b>exploits</b> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> to get stuff past the swear filters that the people who set up this forum, and whose judgement you do seem to trust for deciding on bite models, but not when it's about the inclusion of certain content they probably do not approve of in forum messages. Some things you might be interested to know: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums.html' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums.html</a>
Now, back on topic. I think most people agree that getting rid of the model completely would be bad (you wouldn't even know which weapon you had or if it was working). But the current one is quite annoying, especially at low fps. Alternatives? One that doesn't close completely or showing some blood when you hit (the aliens bleed, why not the marines?) If the devs are against red blood (to avoid being outlawed in Germany?), perhaps show some sparks from the armor, bits being torn off the armor,... but at least something.
Third person has also been suggested as a viable alternative (let's ignore for a moment that it is already considered a cheat). Third person certainly is good for close combat in games <b>that implement it properly</b> (JK2 for example). However, this is the HL engine, where skulks slide across the ceiling with their back. Asking for a good third person camera that doesn't get stuck in walls or ends up outside levels (even a problem with the Onos now, in first person, sometimes the viewpoint goes through the roof) may be asking a bit too much.
maybe a poll should be posted. My vote is keep it as is. It's silly, but I played using the CS knife model for a while, back when I could, and it was beyond easy to kill people, you never missed a bite. The half blinding bite gives it a kind of out of control biting frenzy feel, which in my opinion fits. Who cares about realism.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Actually, Skulks don't have to climb with their back. It's a design decision. They had wall-sticky viewpoints and code working at one time, and decided to remove them for one reason or other... the only one of which that I can imagine is that some people might have gotten vertigo or something. Can only assume they didn't want to rotate the model without rotating the view.
Self-censorship is a different beast than evading the swear/slur filters. Evasion is along the lines of adding spaces or periods between letters so the regular expressions don't match. Replacing letters with numbers, symbols and the like. An asterisk (*) cannot claim even resemblance to any letter besides possibly 'o', stretching the imagination.
Though that quote is more to show what an idiot Dubya is (check the site linked), it does have relevance. One of those 'privelege versus right' dealies. Cheating is a bit... odd. Yes, it's a freedom. You're free to cheat. But if the developer doesn't want you doing it, they have the freedom to disable that. You also have the freedom to be doing something else, if you don't like it. Server ops have the freedom to kick/ban for that cheating. So is cheating one of the freedoms available? Yes. Is cheating a right? No. Who determines what cheating is? The devs.
Regarding the skulks wall-walking, I was actualy referring to the model, as seen by others. It has been mentioned that the models will probably be rotated if the engine can deal with it properly. The viewpoint of the skulk does indeed appear to be a design decision.
About GWB - I guess it takes some effort to be quoted more often by your enemies than your friends <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think cheating is strictly a decision for the developers to make, though.
First, in reality it is not really their decision to do it, as exploits will be found. That alone makes it questionable to insert game features that annoy people, yet are easily replaced by those with some knowledge of the engine. (r_draw is a bit primitive, as it also disables useful features, but a model hack could give all the benefits and none of the problems) Such things are cheater-magnets. If it's as simple as typing a normal console command (yes for r_draw, no for models), then you have the "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" issue. That doesn't necessarily mean model changes are bad, as some people might want custom models for artistic value. Other people might want to replace them with a set of boxes that exactly show the hit boxes instead of the normal model. And reskin them to bright yellow too. But if you disallow custom models, some good talent that could enhance the game would probably get angry for such inflexibility and quit.
Second, if it is known and agreed upon by the players to do it, I think it's OK. Not that it happens often, but if a server admin wants to have some crazy fun, it's his server. Should be honest about it though, not playing as if nothing unusual is happening and suddenly try some dirty tricks against the other team. They can do that, of course, just like some server admins kick players who kill them. It's not nice, but it's their server. If you don't like that, quit the server.
Sobe, you are exploiting. quit wording your way out of it. no matter what you say you are still an exploiting stat ****.
Even though the muzzle flash and skulk bite model are kinda annoying im not gonna cheat just so i dont have to deal with it.
and for whoever said i regularly play other games, you are wrong. NS is all i play, maybey jk2 every now and then. There are no good games out right now as far as im concerned, except for NS.
Anyways, maybey for the marine muzzle flash there could be upgrades at the proto or arms lab that decrease it. And the skulk bite model isnt that bad, except for when marines start jumping like.. things that jump alot.
Honestly i never have a problem seeing past a little pair of teeth. It's not like it takes up half the screen. Same thing with the muzzle flash, most of the time you or the skulk is already dead by the time such issues can become troublesome.
It all boils down to my motto for NS. "Live with it."
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+Feb 18 2003, 02:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Feb 18 2003, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> whatever flayra wants, it's his game. If he doesnt change it and locks it to 1, i'll learn a new way to dominate the scoreboards.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What he actually means is when it is locked, he'll use actual cheats to get around the model this time or alter his video drivers to make them transparent as he already admitted in an earlier thread.
if you even notice the one second of darkness when the mouth shuts then your obviously not paying attention to what your biting..and your going to die...
If you look at nature, the closest thing to a skulk is a shark. Sharks cannot see what they are biting simply because their eyes are on the sides of their heads; and, sharks have a <a href='http://www.fishbase.org/Glossary/Glossary.cfm?TermEnglish=membrane%20nictitante' target='_blank'>nictitating membrane</a> which completely covers their eyes to prevent them from being damaged by their preys' claws. Maybe NS should adopt a similar style of blocking skulks view during attacking. At least, it would shut up the "how stupid, eyes in teh mouf" comments.
First of all, I looooooooove the teeth chomping down. If they prevent me from getting max amount of frags? Maybe, but who cares? It´s supposed to be the same for everyone, rrrrright?
Secondly, read this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I think I've seen my 1000th posting from people who have a problem with how the skulk bite model looks. So, here's where you can post all your ideas on what you would do to replace the model. Once the topic starts rolling, I'll move it into the suggestions area.
Please note that your ideas are going to get shredded just as badly as the NS team's idea was, and for good reason most likely; so don't be a little ****. I am just curious to see what people have as an alternative to the current bite model that wouldn't look ludicrous (an unmoving snout sticking out at the bottom of your screen) to boring (nothing at all). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now read it again. Did he ask you to post ideas on how to make it easier to see through the teeth? Did he ask you to discuss balancing, realism or n00bness? Did he in any way ask you to come up with ideas to make skulking easier?
No. No. No. He asked you to post ideas on how the skulk bite should LOOK. Goshdarnit. Save your wrath for having missed a bite too many for some other post.
Thirdly. Talesin earns my respect with his posts and his views on right and wrong. I wish more people could be like him. Online gaming would be free of llamas.
<!--QuoteBegin--Naughty Brembo+Feb 18 2003, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Naughty Brembo @ Feb 18 2003, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Talesin earns my respect with his posts and his views on right and wrong. I wish more people could be like him. Online gaming would be free of llamas. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i second that...mainly because he shares every single view i have...which is quiet an accomplishment... i would gladly fight along-side you in a battle Talesin... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(r_draw is a bit primitive, as it also disables useful features, but a model hack could give all the benefits and none of the problems)
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on.
Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 18 2003, 07:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 18 2003, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (r_draw is a bit primitive, as it also disables useful features, but a model hack could give all the benefits and none of the problems)
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on.
Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> HEATHEN I LOVE YOU!!! THERE ARE EDUCATED GAMERS OUT THERE!! HALAJOOZOR!
and elric....it was a joke man....a joke, jeesh
<i>If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.</i>
I wish I could spam that over and over and over and over, but I wont. There are models, animations, numbers, yellow and blue bars, minimaps, colored circles, health circles, chat text, the death count on the right, hive icons, upgrade icons. It's all just, as heathen said, costly eye candy. Its good to see real half-life gamers out there. Praise to you heathen!
You guys are kidding me. Your computer can't handle a 4 year old computer engine? Upgrade! For under $100, you can get a video card that runs Half Life without any slowdown. What's stopping you? If you can't afford it, why are you playing computer games? How are you affording the internet connection service?
Normally I side with the Pro-Teeth in this debate. Normally. I guess the thing that bugs me is that a lot of people want it taken out- because they don't like it. Now I know there's a lot of things a lot of people don't like- but we want the game to be fun right?
The question: is the bite model such an unbalancing issue that we can't make it optional? So far, that would seem to be the case, given Sobe.Dragon's score.
As far as the muzzleflash and Bite not being equivelant in balance- I say that it is. I mean, they are both stock weapons, and hinder sight while attacking vs ANY opponent you come across. They very much act the same, respectively.
My final vote: Either you have both, or you have neither. Server side choice that forceably affects EVERYONE would be fine with me. The teeth do add atmosphere, but I also think it'd be much more fun to see what I'm doing if I drop in the middle of marines and need to have quick reaction time (which requires visibility) to take them down.
[SoM]BlindGuardian
=EDIT= Afterthought: If you are in a bad spot, such that the other team has locked down two hives and have good tech upgrades.. well you are stuck with vision imparing weapons where they have STRONGER weapons that let them see perfectly. This adds to the dooming feeling you get when you realize that you lost the rush for the 2nd hive. ESPECIALLY skulks vs. HA. Anyone else have comments on this?
After thinking about this issue I decided to try for myself what some consider to be the ultimate sin: r_drawviewmodel 0
All I can say is, wow ! What an amazing difference. And I'm not merely referring to an increase in fps. When I bit someone it felt like I was _really_ tearing into them <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> It may seem counter-intuitive...but I felt a greater feeling of "being there" without the teeth. I find that the nice bite sound-effect is all that is really needed imo.
In <b>tournament mode</b>, I can perhaps see a reason for considering this an exploit (you would want as level a playing field for all as possible). In a <b>public</b> game though ? Surely the idea as a previous poster has said is to have fun ? I really don't care if someone uses r_drawviewmodel in a public game if it helps him/her enjoy it more (it's not like I'm losing money or anything !). The more they enjoy it the more they'll whine less about the gorge <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k...but still... hopefully you can see where I'm going with this.
I strongly agree that it should be an optional feature. I think leave the bite as it is for those that want it.
/edit/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The question: is the bite model such an unbalancing issue that we can't make it optional? So far, that would seem to be the case, given Sobe.Dragon's score. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say that his score has more to do with his overall strategy than any advantage gained by the lack of a bite model. Bite model or no bite model you still have to be close enough to a marine to bite. This is of course an art in itself. Also, at close range you would expect the skulk to win most encounters right ? Just as at long range the marine dominates the skulk.
I like the teeth the way they are for the most part. It definately does add to the atomsphere of being a skulk, and I the only time i really lose sight of a marine it's not because of the bitemodel but usually because they are jumping around like they are covered in spiders or something
(edited so people who speak english can understand it, late night posting wreaks havoc)
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 18 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 18 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(r_draw is a bit primitive, as it also disables useful features, but a model hack could give all the benefits and none of the problems)
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for one <b>little</b> problem. Model-consistency check is defaulted to 'on'. So if you use an anti-bite model, you don't get to play on a server which uses it. Oh, and let's not forget that anti-bite models are ALSO considered cheats, since the first time someone posted about one they'd made. Specifically, they posted 'Is this a cheat, or can I post a link to it here?'. To which they were told 'Yes, it's a cheat. Don't post it'. And so they didn't. Amazing... someone who puts out effort to not only adhere to the mod-makers' desires about THEIR game, but actually takes initiative to ASK if what they've created would go against those desires. Perhaps there exists a link between those willing to put out effort (beyond typing one command), and those with the consideration to not defile another's hard labor. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Considering that 'costly eye-candy' only really affects machines that probably drop to sub-6 frame per second rates when they come into any room with even a small turret farm, defensive outpost, or any Marines numbering above three, <sarcasm> I'm sold. </sarcasm> It's also amazing that the 'costly eye-candy' is an ASPECT of that gameplay, and that turning it off both gains an unfair advantage against those who listen to those who follow the mod-makers' desires. Of course, that's /completely/ coincidental, now isn't it? Just look at SoBe's score screenshot, or a number of the sYn demos. Of course it is.
Hang on, and humor me for a second. Replace every instance relating to r_drawviewmodel with 'bunnyhopping'. Compare the arguments here to those defending b-hop. They match up on a lot of the major points.. it's a viable aspect of the game, Valve would have taken it out if they didn't want it there, anyone who wants to take it out is just whining..
It boils down to this. Both are a group of people b*tching and moaning about how their pet <b>exploit</b> is being taken out of the game, and <whine> they don't want it to be removed so you can't take it!!! </whine> I'm sure that if pistol-scripting or speedhacking could SOMEHOW be seen as a 'viable tactic', THEY'd be in here too, trying to keep it from being removed.
Tough. Adapt. Deal with it like everyone else does. And I'd suggest starting now.. before 1.1 hits, and you're left with no time to wean yourself away from cheating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question: is the bite model such an unbalancing issue that we can't make it optional? So far, that would seem to be the case, given Sobe.Dragon's score.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still haven't gotten an answer from my previous posts (and I would really appreciate one):
<i>On another note, would any of you object to me using a FOV of 120? Would any of you think that was an exploit? Seeing how it was implemented in a beta version (and only removed for compatibility issues, not balance problems), I would think that it would be considered legal. Does anyone else disagree? I would like to hear the opposing arguments. </i>
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Feb 18 2003, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Feb 18 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a <b>public</b> game though ? Surely the idea as a previous poster has said is to have fun ? I really don't care if someone uses r_drawviewmodel in a public game if it helps him/her enjoy it more (it's not like I'm losing money or anything !).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what about the enjoyment of the players on the other team who aren't using exploits, and are losing to people who have an unfair advantage? Does anyone care about their enjoyment?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Moon @ Feb 18 2003, 10:45 PM) In a public game though ? Surely the idea as a previous poster has said is to have fun ? I really don't care if someone uses r_drawviewmodel in a public game if it helps him/her enjoy it more (it's not like I'm losing money or anything !).
But what about the enjoyment of the players on the other team who aren't using exploits, and are losing to people who have an unfair advantage? Does anyone care about their enjoyment? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is I hardly view this as something unbalancing. Marines may face _marginally_ tougher skulks. At close range marines _should_ be at a severe disadvantage...do you disagree ? I think the practical impact , if everyone decided to use r_drawviewmodel 0, would be very little in the greater scheme of things. After all, as I've said before, at long range a skulk is still meat with or without teeth. At close range maybe they're more dangerous, but not unstoppable by any means.
It's not like this an aimbot...or wallhack...or skinhack marine ... I'm trying to understand your viewpoint though...do you believe it is in the same class as those kinds of exploits ?
And something else to consider....Marines are not supposed to care about personal frags...
Comments
Actually i'll tell you the truth on how I killed that many marines. I come in from the vent behind the base when I hear people using the armory. Then I use my knowledge of jumping + strafing to avoid being hit. If i'm lucky, i can kill the 2-3 people loading up on ammo. The rest of your team was out elsewhere.....thats when I went for the IP's.
Now that entire game, I killed 30 people but never took down an IP. Here is what I did...you nubs that call me exploiting might wanna take some notes. When 2 IP's are next to each other, they spawn marines in one after the other in sequence.
Left, right, left, right, left, right, etc etc etc. It's guaranteed that if a marine spawned in 1 of the ip's the next will spawn in the other one. So I stay TO THE SIDE of them, and wait for a marine to spawn. Since I am already attacking all I do is jump and i instantly hit them. After hitting them once I run after em and just chomp one more time. 98% of the time I nail em the second time. The other 2% the marine jumps and winds up half way across the map ^^. After that guy is dead, I now line myself up with the side of the other IP. Wait for him to spawn, jump, follow, chomp...line myself up with the other ip, jump, follow, chomp, repeat.
So me advertising that the only reason I got that score was because of no models is slightly inaccurate. I used my knowledge of the game, other then my knowledge of basic console commands to kill marines. Like I said, if its changed, it wont be that hard to figure out.
When these people are installing nobite.dll do you think they will finally realise they are cheats? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's legitimate customization vs enforced eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The customization is no longer legitimate when the mod-maker says 'no, it's an exploit'. It stops being a customization and becomes a cheat.
Actually i'll tell you the truth on how I killed that many marines. I come in from the vent behind the base when I hear people using the armory. Then I use my knowledge of jumping + strafing to avoid being hit. If i'm lucky, i can kill the 2-3 people loading up on ammo. The rest of your team was out elsewhere.....thats when I went for the IP's.
Now that entire game, I killed 30 people but never took down an IP. Here is what I did...you nubs that call me exploiting might wanna take some notes. When 2 IP's are next to each other, they spawn marines in one after the other in sequence.
Left, right, left, right, left, right, etc etc etc. It's guaranteed that if a marine spawned in 1 of the ip's the next will spawn in the other one. So I stay TO THE SIDE of them, and wait for a marine to spawn. Since I am already attacking all I do is jump and i instantly hit them. After hitting them once I run after em and just chomp one more time. 98% of the time I nail em the second time. The other 2% the marine jumps and winds up half way across the map ^^. After that guy is dead, I now line myself up with the side of the other IP. Wait for him to spawn, jump, follow, chomp...line myself up with the other ip, jump, follow, chomp, repeat.
So me advertising that the only reason I got that score was because of no models is slightly inaccurate. I used my knowledge of the game, other then my knowledge of basic console commands to kill marines. Like I said, if its changed, it wont be that hard to figure out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i and countless ppl can get 30-10 as skulk with the model.. it doesnt make much of a difference
plus.. adding the "bite" and being able to cope means ur an adaptable person...
Therefore my response is, yeah, whatever. If i'm ever in the same game as you i'll make sure to join the other team.[/Way off-topic]
I think theres got to be some indication of you attacking. I can't think of a game where an offensive weapon had no visible effect on screen.
If it really bothers people that much, theres a simple upgrade already in the game for 33 res and 54 res which sorts it. One upgrade is called a lerk and the others a fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When these people are installing nobite.dll do you think they will finally realise they are cheats? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's legitimate customization vs enforced eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The customization is no longer legitimate when the mod-maker says 'no, it's an exploit'. It stops being a customization and becomes a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, your sig nicely summarizes your position:
"There should be limits to freedom." -G. W. (Dubya) Bush
However, it's quite inconsistent with your <b>exploits</b> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> to get stuff past the swear filters that the people who set up this forum, and whose judgement you do seem to trust for deciding on bite models, but not when it's about the inclusion of certain content they probably do not approve of in forum messages.
Some things you might be interested to know: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums.html' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums.html</a>
Now, back on topic. I think most people agree that getting rid of the model completely would be bad (you wouldn't even know which weapon you had or if it was working). But the current one is quite annoying, especially at low fps. Alternatives? One that doesn't close completely or showing some blood when you hit (the aliens bleed, why not the marines?) If the devs are against red blood (to avoid being outlawed in Germany?), perhaps show some sparks from the armor, bits being torn off the armor,... but at least something.
Third person has also been suggested as a viable alternative (let's ignore for a moment that it is already considered a cheat). Third person certainly is good for close combat in games <b>that implement it properly</b> (JK2 for example). However, this is the HL engine, where skulks slide across the ceiling with their back. Asking for a good third person camera that doesn't get stuck in walls or ends up outside levels (even a problem with the Onos now, in first person, sometimes the viewpoint goes through the roof) may be asking a bit too much.
My vote is keep it as is. It's silly, but I played using the CS knife model for a while, back when I could, and it was beyond easy to kill people, you never missed a bite. The half blinding bite gives it a kind of out of control biting frenzy feel, which in my opinion fits. Who cares about realism.
Self-censorship is a different beast than evading the swear/slur filters. Evasion is along the lines of adding spaces or periods between letters so the regular expressions don't match. Replacing letters with numbers, symbols and the like. An asterisk (*) cannot claim even resemblance to any letter besides possibly 'o', stretching the imagination.
Though that quote is more to show what an idiot Dubya is (check the site linked), it does have relevance. One of those 'privelege versus right' dealies. Cheating is a bit... odd. Yes, it's a freedom. You're free to cheat. But if the developer doesn't want you doing it, they have the freedom to disable that. You also have the freedom to be doing something else, if you don't like it. Server ops have the freedom to kick/ban for that cheating. So is cheating one of the freedoms available? Yes. Is cheating a right? No. Who determines what cheating is? The devs.
About GWB - I guess it takes some effort to be quoted more often by your enemies than your friends <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think cheating is strictly a decision for the developers to make, though.
First, in reality it is not really their decision to do it, as exploits will be found. That alone makes it questionable to insert game features that annoy people, yet are easily replaced by those with some knowledge of the engine. (r_draw is a bit primitive, as it also disables useful features, but a model hack could give all the benefits and none of the problems) Such things are cheater-magnets. If it's as simple as typing a normal console command (yes for r_draw, no for models), then you have the "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" issue. That doesn't necessarily mean model changes are bad, as some people might want custom models for artistic value. Other people might want to replace them with a set of boxes that exactly show the hit boxes instead of the normal model. And reskin them to bright yellow too. But if you disallow custom models, some good talent that could enhance the game would probably get angry for such inflexibility and quit.
Second, if it is known and agreed upon by the players to do it, I think it's OK. Not that it happens often, but if a server admin wants to have some crazy fun, it's his server. Should be honest about it though, not playing as if nothing unusual is happening and suddenly try some dirty tricks against the other team. They can do that, of course, just like some server admins kick players who kill them. It's not nice, but it's their server. If you don't like that, quit the server.
Even though the muzzle flash and skulk bite model are kinda annoying im not gonna cheat just so i dont have to deal with it.
and for whoever said i regularly play other games, you are wrong. NS is all i play, maybey jk2 every now and then. There are no good games out right now as far as im concerned, except for NS.
Anyways, maybey for the marine muzzle flash there could be upgrades at the proto or arms lab that decrease it. And the skulk bite model isnt that bad, except for when marines start jumping like.. things that jump alot.
It all boils down to my motto for NS. "Live with it."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he actually means is when it is locked, he'll use actual cheats to get around the model this time or alter his video drivers to make them transparent as he already admitted in an earlier thread.
Secondly, read this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I think I've seen my 1000th posting from people who have a problem with how the skulk bite model looks. So, here's where you can post all your ideas on what you would do to replace the model. Once the topic starts rolling, I'll move it into the suggestions area.
Please note that your ideas are going to get shredded just as badly as the NS team's idea was, and for good reason most likely; so don't be a little ****. I am just curious to see what people have as an alternative to the current bite model that wouldn't look ludicrous (an unmoving snout sticking out at the bottom of your screen) to boring (nothing at all).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now read it again. Did he ask you to post ideas on how to make it easier to see through the teeth? Did he ask you to discuss balancing, realism or n00bness? Did he in any way ask you to come up with ideas to make skulking easier?
No. No. No. He asked you to post ideas on how the skulk bite should LOOK. Goshdarnit. Save your wrath for having missed a bite too many for some other post.
Thirdly. Talesin earns my respect with his posts and his views on right and wrong. I wish more people could be like him. Online gaming would be free of llamas.
i second that...mainly because he shares every single view i have...which is quiet an accomplishment...
i would gladly fight along-side you in a battle Talesin... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on.
Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on.
Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HEATHEN I LOVE YOU!!! THERE ARE EDUCATED GAMERS OUT THERE!! HALAJOOZOR!
and elric....it was a joke man....a joke, jeesh
<i>If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.</i>
I wish I could spam that over and over and over and over, but I wont. There are models, animations, numbers, yellow and blue bars, minimaps, colored circles, health circles, chat text, the death count on the right, hive icons, upgrade icons. It's all just, as heathen said, costly eye candy. Its good to see real half-life gamers out there. Praise to you heathen!
I guess the thing that bugs me is that a lot of people want it taken out- because they don't like it. Now I know there's a lot of things a lot of people don't like- but we want the game to be fun right?
The question: is the bite model such an unbalancing issue that we can't make it optional? So far, that would seem to be the case, given Sobe.Dragon's score.
As far as the muzzleflash and Bite not being equivelant in balance- I say that it is. I mean, they are both stock weapons, and hinder sight while attacking vs ANY opponent you come across. They very much act the same, respectively.
My final vote: Either you have both, or you have neither. Server side choice that forceably affects EVERYONE would be fine with me. The teeth do add atmosphere, but I also think it'd be much more fun to see what I'm doing if I drop in the middle of marines and need to have quick reaction time (which requires visibility) to take them down.
[SoM]BlindGuardian
=EDIT=
Afterthought: If you are in a bad spot, such that the other team has locked down two hives and have good tech upgrades.. well you are stuck with vision imparing weapons where they have STRONGER weapons that let them see perfectly. This adds to the dooming feeling you get when you realize that you lost the rush for the 2nd hive. ESPECIALLY skulks vs. HA. Anyone else have comments on this?
All I can say is, wow ! What an amazing difference. And I'm not merely referring to an increase in fps. When I bit someone it felt like I was _really_ tearing into them <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> It may seem counter-intuitive...but I felt a greater feeling of "being there" without the teeth. I find that the nice bite sound-effect is all that is really needed imo.
In <b>tournament mode</b>, I can perhaps see a reason for considering this an exploit (you would want as level a playing field for all as possible). In a <b>public</b> game though ? Surely the idea as a previous poster has said is to have fun ? I really don't care if someone uses r_drawviewmodel in a public game if it helps him/her enjoy it more (it's not like I'm losing money or anything !). The more they enjoy it the more they'll whine less about the gorge <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k...but still... hopefully you can see where I'm going with this.
I strongly agree that it should be an optional feature. I think leave the bite as it is for those that want it.
/edit/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The question: is the bite model such an unbalancing issue that we can't make it optional? So far, that would seem to be the case, given Sobe.Dragon's score.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say that his score has more to do with his overall strategy than any advantage gained by the lack of a bite model. Bite model or no bite model you still have to be close enough to a marine to bite. This is of course an art in itself. Also, at close range you would expect the skulk to win most encounters right ? Just as at long range the marine dominates the skulk.
(edited so people who speak english can understand it, late night posting wreaks havoc)
Very good point. r_drawviewmodel 0 has the drawback of not being able to see hivesight, motion tracking, build percent, building health, etc, but if you take away drawview, people will make custom models that remove the bite, yet keep the hivesight and so on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for one <b>little</b> problem. Model-consistency check is defaulted to 'on'. So if you use an anti-bite model, you don't get to play on a server which uses it. Oh, and let's not forget that anti-bite models are ALSO considered cheats, since the first time someone posted about one they'd made. Specifically, they posted 'Is this a cheat, or can I post a link to it here?'. To which they were told 'Yes, it's a cheat. Don't post it'. And so they didn't. Amazing... someone who puts out effort to not only adhere to the mod-makers' desires about THEIR game, but actually takes initiative to ASK if what they've created would go against those desires. Perhaps there exists a link between those willing to put out effort (beyond typing one command), and those with the consideration to not defile another's hard labor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Before I even played NS, I went to my TFC cfg and copied all the binds and cvars that I use (bind m +moveback , fps_max 100, cl_updaterate 100, r_drawviewmodel 0, etc) so I wouldn't have to do any setup stuff. About a week later I found a thread on here saying it was an "exploit." If that's what the devs say, then I wish they would consider the fact that some people value gameplay more than costly eye-candy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. Considering that 'costly eye-candy' only really affects machines that probably drop to sub-6 frame per second rates when they come into any room with even a small turret farm, defensive outpost, or any Marines numbering above three, <sarcasm> I'm sold. </sarcasm>
It's also amazing that the 'costly eye-candy' is an ASPECT of that gameplay, and that turning it off both gains an unfair advantage against those who listen to those who follow the mod-makers' desires. Of course, that's /completely/ coincidental, now isn't it? Just look at SoBe's score screenshot, or a number of the sYn demos. Of course it is.
Hang on, and humor me for a second. Replace every instance relating to r_drawviewmodel with 'bunnyhopping'. Compare the arguments here to those defending b-hop. They match up on a lot of the major points.. it's a viable aspect of the game, Valve would have taken it out if they didn't want it there, anyone who wants to take it out is just whining..
It boils down to this. Both are a group of people b*tching and moaning about how their pet <b>exploit</b> is being taken out of the game, and <whine> they don't want it to be removed so you can't take it!!! </whine> I'm sure that if pistol-scripting or speedhacking could SOMEHOW be seen as a 'viable tactic', THEY'd be in here too, trying to keep it from being removed.
Tough. Adapt. Deal with it like everyone else does. And I'd suggest starting now.. before 1.1 hits, and you're left with no time to wean yourself away from cheating.
i'm flattered =)
I still haven't gotten an answer from my previous posts (and I would really appreciate one):
<i>On another note, would any of you object to me using a FOV of 120? Would any of you think that was an exploit? Seeing how it was implemented in a beta version (and only removed for compatibility issues, not balance problems), I would think that it would be considered legal. Does anyone else disagree? I would like to hear the opposing arguments. </i>
But what about the enjoyment of the players on the other team who aren't using exploits, and are losing to people who have an unfair advantage? Does anyone care about their enjoyment?
In a public game though ? Surely the idea as a previous poster has said is to have fun ? I really don't care if someone uses r_drawviewmodel in a public game if it helps him/her enjoy it more (it's not like I'm losing money or anything !).
But what about the enjoyment of the players on the other team who aren't using exploits, and are losing to people who have an unfair advantage? Does anyone care about their enjoyment? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is I hardly view this as something unbalancing. Marines may face _marginally_ tougher skulks. At close range marines _should_ be at a severe disadvantage...do you disagree ?
I think the practical impact , if everyone decided to use r_drawviewmodel 0, would be very little in the greater scheme of things. After all, as I've said before, at long range a skulk is still meat with or without teeth. At close range maybe they're more dangerous, but not unstoppable by any means.
It's not like this an aimbot...or wallhack...or skinhack marine ... I'm trying to understand your viewpoint though...do you believe it is in the same class as those kinds of exploits ?
And something else to consider....Marines are not supposed to care about personal frags...