Speaking of lerk flying - I think just reducing the height of the initial 'jump' before flight begins would be enough to fly well with a lerk for me. It's just the takeoff I have trouble with. Am I the only one?
I have to say I whole heartedly agree with Grendel.
It only takes 1 or two nodes to go straight to jetpack before aliens have a 2nd hive or a sufficient number of lerks. Even if aliens are going lerk, this is an extreme detriment to their team at this juncture, as it is impedeing the resource overflow cap.
The bigger problem is that is takes at least 2-3 lerks to really take down a jetpacker and with a talented enough jetpacker even that is not sufficient. Even in these cirumstances the whole of the alien team is busy dealing with a single marine player giving the marines free run of the map to cap more resources, advance in terroritory or solidfy/take hives
The only thing a sulk can do is parasite and hope the jetpacker screws up by getting too close to the ceiling the walls or the ground. Even if the sulk should happen to be so lucky its only .5 seconds before the jetpacker is jumping in the air again and out of reach.
In the meantime the hive is at some degree of reduced health, the entire alien team is wasting time trying to take care of him and the marines are gaining a strong advantage simply because the rest of their team is free to wander without the pestilence of the remainder of the alien team.
I hate it when people call this a "skill" issue with lerks and sulks. Thats like saying a sulk wasn't "skilled" enough to take down those 3 marines. Or that sulk wasn't "skilled" enough to take down that ha with the hmg.
In all honesty I have done the latter with less difficulty than the prior. Lerks only do what 8 damage per spike? Assuming no upgrades that 150 damage/8 = 18.75 hits on a moving target. Factor in the energy it takes to fly and fire with the possibility of med packs and multiple jet packers and its just riduclous.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Cannonfodder, I'm sorry to have to tell you to read the 1.04 changelog and the official manual. Lerks do 18 damage. Marine armour absorbes 40% damage @ lvl 1 and 50% @ lvl 2. So it only takes 10 and 12 spikes, respectively to take down a marine. On the other hand, I do agree with you that Kharaas lack effective anti-air early game (try playing alien defending Refinery on Bast). There's some discussion out there about switching Blink and Acid Rocket. If it <i>is</i> changed, then the aliens have to <i>try</i> to swipe at jetpackers while falling down from the ceiling.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
However, when the ping goes above 250, it's a different matter. Jetpackers move awefully fast for a marine. I think marines are able to get jetpacks too early. The problem with the resource systems has already been discusses too many times. That **** is always in disguise of something else. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree on some points. Jetpacking is broken to some degree. However, what really ticks me off is the way Grendel presented the situation. You write with all the eloquency and attitude of a ticked off pre-pubescent child. You presented some decent arguments, which might have meant something. When TeoH responded, arguing each point with his points, you responded in a couple lines, which can be basically summed up as: "ROFLMAO" aka "I cannot actually counter your arguments with human thought. Thus, I will laugh in petty contempt. Hopefully, people will spend the majority of their time deciphering the long acronym and less time on the fact that I haven't actually said anything of importance."
Seriously. If you didn't have "Playtester" next to your name, I would have hardly believed you even held a position at all, much less lead playtester. You write as if you've been personally wronged, and I find it likely you've had your **** handed to you on a platter in some form regarding the JP rush. It seems like you've been raped one too many times in matches playing as Alien. Then you stoop to threatening people, claiming that because people are using a lame strategy that you yourself as a playtester didn't catch, that the delay in balancing the tech tree would be <b>their</b> fault. I, alont with probably the entire community, would probably rather wait a while and play a balanced game. But then again, I wouldn't want a game balanced by a bigoted, bitter playtester with his head to far up his ****, there's no way in hell he could ever see the future of the game in any shape or form.
Now, /vent off.
The JP rush is unbalanced. But theres nothing wrong with the JP rush in form. The game will always be patched, and this early, things are unbalanced. Now, JP will probably be nerfed to hell because of it's success. I have no problem with that. I am neither against nor for the jetpack. I play with a viable strategy that wins. The JP rush is <b>NOT</b> an exploit. It's simply an overpowered strategy. A JP rush is fine in even a CAL league match, so it's clearly not an exploit.
In the next version, something else will probably be a strong, viable strat, and you'll find me using that when the time comes. Before 1.04, I've never even attempted a JP rush. Because phasing 2 hives and locking them down was so easy and so viable, it was a <b>strong</b> strat. Now, this was nerfed. IP's cost more, phases cost more, and phases now lower amounts of HP. These all seemed to be aimed directly toward stopping the 2 hive phase lockdown. Do you see the pattern? No one here is using the JP rush just to **** you off. They're simply using the most viable strategy.
And yet again, sounding like a child, you sarcastically tell them to test out other strats, "crazy stuff like that." Well, I'll tell you now, I don't listen to that bull. I'll simply wait until the new patch comes out so I actually know what the variables are, and thus can test strats to the greatest efficiency. It only takes a couple days to get a feel and work out new strats.
My response is directed at the 1st and only the 1st post as I do not read any other posts other then the first because I believe it gives better response.
Firstly, the jetpack rush is used immensly in match's because they count but i can assure you that in practice and scrim practice clans DO try other strats.
Redemption #red is the best example of this type of strat expansion because they do everything you are talking about <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Other then ha, they have mastered every aspect of your list. They tech up jp/hmg while pinning aliens down to 1 hive by send 1-2 guys to each hive and camping them with rsr nodes in each one. They construct mini-base/siege base outside the main hive when they feel they can fend off any 1 hive alien rush that might commense. BEFORE they start their mini-base they check if the aliens have constructed defense at the hive... because if they have lacked in the building of offense/dc's they can just spam it to death. If the aliens have succeeded in defenses/lerks they send their 1*ONLY* jp/hmger to control 1-2 rsr nodes by himself/maybe 1 more lmger until they have a good amount of rsr*
The jp rush is not a rush at all.... it is the second highest tech for marines and takes a very long time to get if you plan to keep supplying your team with the jp's needed to take a hive/alien team down. The only thing that can be refered to an actuall jp rush was against... i think q36... although i'm not sure, they recycle EVERYTHING even ip's just to tech jp's in the very begenning of the game and all out rush your hive before you can get 1 node up... NOW THAT IS A JETPACK RUSH!
My clan and others we play have tried all strats and styles you have given and even more that you have not, in practice and scrim... and we just know that those strats do not work until a new version comes out giving no point to using them until a new version comes out. Pandas used a HA/HMG rush on us a week ago and they died because it took to long for them to get to the hive with slow ha walkin speeds vs skulk spam hit and runs. *they cant use hmg's if they are welding someone* *if you hit more then 1 person then everyone must be welded making more people switch to welder* *more people on welders makes less people holding hmg's*.
Conclusion: Clans ARE trying other strats, they just dont disclouse outcomes of various types because they dont want to help other clans. Clans ONLY use good strats in match's because they count for something: reputation, points, and league status.
I'm with Havanna on this one, if I understand where his post is coming from anyway.
This is my whole problem with "game balancing". Instead of things that arn't fair or actuelly are "Broken", this is allways what happens. Bitching gets strategys that are valid, fair, and even might require personal skill NERFED to hell and back becuase "They work", and thus, the lowest common denominator is pleased. The people that can't win fairly.
When will "Things that work" stop being lumped into the "it has to change" catagory? Really. There's a diffrence.
I think Kavasa's been looking into perfecting a sort of HA rush, so he'll be fine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Feb 26 2003, 12:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 26 2003, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point is that it's well nigh impossible to defend against with a competent jetpacker. The Kharaa do not have access to the tech tree required to effectively combat against it by the time marines can have a JP/HMG. It's analogous to a situation in an RTS where one team can build aircraft before the other has access to Anti-Air technology. If the marines only got there by capping a load of nozzles, that would be fair enough. But it's possible to reach that point in the tech tree of ONE NOZZLE. Ask any member of sYn. Better yet, watch one of their demos.
For a gameplay point of view, I also am not particularly keen on the readily available nature of JPs, since they devalue teamwork. The only reason why they are so cheap is for a fairly dumb reason I am not going to go into now. They worked better when they cost the same as HA. The idea of the marine tech is that each item is useful for a particular role. As it stands, jetpacks are simply a bit too uber. It's not like they'll be removed or made useless. But there's something wrong where JPs are more popular than HA, regardless of resources. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actually while we attack we cap about 3-4 nodes, and if the game is not over with our LMG rush, then we tech JPs/HMGs. I do agree with you however that the JP rush is uncounterable for the most part. We've had some success with downing the proto before it could hurt us a lot, but we also play extremely aggressive, which a lot of teams dont do.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that.
As a late-comer to this thread, partly because of the declining interest of this section of the forum because it seems to posts some of the most obnoxious strategies sometimes. In regards to the first post, because i simply dont have the time to read everyone, sorry, I think that too many times marines fall back on this strategy because of the fact that it works so well, the JP/HMG or JP whoring is becoming obnoxious. I have to say ill do it myself because ill try desperately to give the edge in our favor of winning. But however, the sad reality is the in some cases its almost a necessity to "Jp whor3".
In regards to what Grendel said about killing a competent Jetpacker its can be extremely difficult, and surely impossible if you have only one hive.
Movement seems to be a difficulty among marines, maybe because my lack of experience in clan games, but this certainly is prevalent in public games. Mobility seems to be difficult for marines and by the time that they secure the 1st hive the 2nd hive is on the way, and for most pubs its difficult to both adequately defend nodes, the hive, and destroy the second hive at the same time. Yes, Not impossible, many times marines have been succesful, its not a constant buts its a trend.
This why the belief that the 2nd hive is almost a guaranteed loss for the marines. Which leads me to my first point, marines almost need to lean back on the strategy, not only to win the game, but to buy time, but jetpacking in , killing the building/built hive and trying over again.
Sorry for any incompleteness, im trying to config router settings and ip's at the same time.
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
i definetly agree, im completely against rushes ESPECIALLY jp rushes, but atm in 1.04 its the only sure way to win, so my clan (Division Wiking) does it, i don't approve but :\
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Feb 27 2003, 08:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Feb 27 2003, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Too bad it takes a year and a half to tech to HA with decent upgrades unless you control 4 or more nozzles; and if the aliens get fades before you have time to begin your assault, than you are looking at trouble.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats the point. Tech up to level 3 weapons/armour before even researching HA, never mind handing it out. Don't even hand out HMGs, just some GLs, and you can take a Fade/Lerk/Gorge combo down.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Feb 27 2003, 05:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Feb 27 2003, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> actually while we attack we cap about 3-4 nodes, and if the game is not over with our LMG rush, then we tech JPs/HMGs. I do agree with you however that the JP rush is uncounterable for the most part. We've had some success with downing the proto before it could hurt us a lot, but we also play extremely aggressive, which a lot of teams dont do.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I apologise if I implied that you only actually JP rush off one node, I merely sought to illustrate that it can be done and I felt that given your competetive standing, sYn was a good example as you've illustrated to me previously that it is possible.
Obviously, I didn't mean to say that you hung around in spawn playing backgammon whilst the armoury boogied away until HMGs were available. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Feb 26 2003, 10:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 26 2003, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's beginning to sicken me the amount of COMMANDERS who are simply jetpack rushing.
Unfortunately, due to time constraints, unless you chaps wanted to wait another 2 months for NS, we were pushed to release NS before we tested the last parts of the techtree as much as we liked. As a result, jetpacks are somewhat unbalanced (SOME testers already suggested this).
1.1 will be tested until we feel that the game is properly balanced. As a consequence, rapid teching to Jetpacks will not be feasible as a winning strategy. So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA. Crazy stuff like that. Otherwise, when 1.1 comes out, you'll be totally screwed. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *ignores rest of the thread*
I've had this happen on several occasions. I've played this scenario a few times on Kharaa and a few on Marines, and jetpack rushing is by far one of the most deadliest tactics that I have seen arise thus far. Very recently I was playing Kharaa on Bast, the second hive was being built in the Engine room with the first located at Ventilation.
We had fairly secure defenses on both hives, when out of nowhere 3 marines with jetpacks and HMGs rush in fly around like maniacs shooting the hive. Needless to say without leap, trying to attack a flying marine in a space as large as this hive is virtually impossible. It involves running up a wall, trying to run over to the marine flying along the roof avoiding HMG fire, not falling OFF the roof, and dying 20 times before you manage to take ONE of them down. By the time it was over they had all flown off and we were one hive short.
With our main hive destroyed, and engine hive at around 90%. The 3 of us that remained couldn't do anything to stop the marines when they started attacking the Engine hive with jetpacks. Even as we rushed over to the hive from our positions it was basically rushing to our own demise, all 3 of us were met with a hot volley of lead as we rounded the corner into the hive room (Obviously motion tracking)
Other times playing on marines on maps such as Nancy, the Commander has dropped me a welder and a jetpack. 2 VERY VERY cheap items in the marines vast armoury and I have taken down the Noname hive without taking a hit. As much as I enjoyed doing this, I feel that shortening the game using tactics like this ruins a lot of peoples experiences with NS.
With the money it costs to deck out marines in HMGs and HA, the Comm can give EVERY Marine his own jetpack AND a welder several times over (Ok I exaggerate a bit...) Instant flying death. Probably the greatest detrimental factor of one hive Kharaa trying to take down a marine is that a lot of players are staying at 33/33 RPs. Once they reach this, their excess points go straight to the gorge, so you hardly see a lot of lerks flying around with only 1 hive. Add this to the factor that Skulks don't stick very well to a lot of the curved architecture on the roof of a lot of hives and you'll find that a Jetpack rush is EXTREMELY hard to deter.
I can't wait to see some tech tree balances Flay has in store for us! ^_^
a clan we (eve) scrimmed against sat in their base for 90% of the game, holding a 2nd node (1st node being base node) for about 1 minute, and was able to afford 4 jp hmgs before the 2nd hive went up
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
There is a simple solution to this problem. For example, in games such as Starcraft people do rushes sometimes, and sometimes they don't. Both are viable options, and that's why one doesn't dominate. The same thing needs to happen for NS. Non-rushing needs to be a viable optio for the marines. Marines currently can't hold down enough res locations worth poop (unless you're on a amp like ns_nothing) especially against 2-hive aliens while even one hive aliens can holds down res nozzles easily (and cheaply). Change that, and i guarantee the marines will definitely consider a non-rush tactic more often. That, or nerf the alien's abilities at 2 hives so there will be a TRUE fight over the third hive. Like for example, make umbra available only at hive 3, and in its slot give the lerk a weakened version of spores or something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->while even one hive aliens can holds down res nozzles easily (and cheaply). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--k33l3m+Feb 27 2003, 07:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (k33l3m @ Feb 27 2003, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->while even one hive aliens can holds down res nozzles easily (and cheaply). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl, only in pubs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You wanna try scrmming us to see how well we can protect our nozzles at the beginning of the game as one-hive aliens?
Marines can defend it too in the beginning decently easily. You need mines, and constant patrols or putting lots and lots of pressure on the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Feb 27 2003, 06:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 27 2003, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Feb 27 2003, 05:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Feb 27 2003, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> actually while we attack we cap about 3-4 nodes, and if the game is not over with our LMG rush, then we tech JPs/HMGs. I do agree with you however that the JP rush is uncounterable for the most part. We've had some success with downing the proto before it could hurt us a lot, but we also play extremely aggressive, which a lot of teams dont do.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I apologise if I implied that you only actually JP rush off one node, I merely sought to illustrate that it can be done and I felt that given your competetive standing, sYn was a good example as you've illustrated to me previously that it is possible.
Obviously, I didn't mean to say that you hung around in spawn playing backgammon whilst the armoury boogied away until HMGs were available. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I misread it, it was my bad. Late night posting ownz me
The only problem I can see with the jetpack is that it is kinda odd that it costs less than a shotgun. Its a pretty late tech for being so cheap. I just think a minor cost increase and fuel shorting would make it perfect.
I hate JP rushing as a marine cos I just can't fly the things. At 10-30fps they just don't work. I keep nearly killing myself when the fuel runs out before I reach the ledge I'm aiming for.
Anyway, I had an odd experience on Tanith today where a very good marine team, including at least 4 good clanners, were holding 3 or 4 res nodes (including reac room) and HMG/JP whoring like nothing I've ever seen, causing us real grief. The game went on a long time; a lot of hives died. But in the end, to my surprise, they LOST.
Why? Because they were addicted to HMG/JP hive takedowns. So many marines died doing this that the ground was littered with HMGs and healthpacks. They never got around to getting heavy armour (at least I never saw one). This HMG/JP hive assault must have cost them so much more than just kitting the team out with HA/HMG/GL and moving together to secure the hives properly. It's as if, as Grendel says, they had no other strategies. And towards the end 1 then 2 of their better jetpackers (comm^adonis and 1 other comm^ player) got bored and left, and we eventually took down reactor room, leaving them up shot creek without a paddle.
One interesting strat they used was to pre-healthspam a hive. When you saw health appearing in your hive you knew a JP was arriving in the next 30 seconds <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I comm, I very rarely give out jetpacks; I expect to hold 1 hive and res, then fight, and win, against fades. This is really not that hard, as long as you get some HA, some GLs, and all the arms lab upgrades you can. Jetpacks just seem so cheap.
the way I see it, jetpacks either need to be cheaper, but harder to fly (I mean it is just a machine strapped to you, surely it should be harder to control than a lerk which was born with wings?) or up the price and keep them as they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Feb 26 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Feb 26 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Once again TeoH is the only one speaking sense in this thread. An Effective JP rush is a combination of strong resource contol and zone managment. Sure its a 'tad' too cheap, maybe up the JP cos and improve lerks somewhat but its not a broken strategy, its a VERY advanced strat that requires strong team work to pull of on a good alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Strong resource control? Zone Managment? You mean turtling in your base and covering those 3 RT until 4-6 min after the game has started you emerge with HMGs and JPs? And strong teamwork makes it more effective but throw 4 JPers at a hive and it will go down, even if they're ramboing. Plus I'll let you in on a lil secret *its no longer a VERY advanced strat, most players are very well versed in it now*, it does however need a good alien team with great teamwork to stop.
Yeah maybe you can tech to jps/hmgs with 2 nodes (including main) in a public game with 8+ marines, but thats only because you get like 3 rps per second with just your marine main node (res handicap). If you try to do it in a 6v6 you are taking a huge gamble and most likely have to recycle the armslab w/no upgrades to get 2 guys equipped before that second hive goes up. Btw, any competent alien team can shut down a jp/hmg raid with 2 hives. Just umbra the hive and let the gorge web them out of the sky. What it all boils down to is a game of resource control. Marines must successfully keep the aliens pinned down at the hive and force them to stay away from marine resource nodes.
Ending arguement... where ever it is at this point... i only bothered to read the first page of flames..
Marines move slow, VERY SLOW compared to Skulks... this game is about owning the map... owning the map is thus impossible to something that can move much faster then you. jetpack "rushing" is nothing then a coordinated effort to stop the aliens from expanding and keep grabbing up res towers for yourself to tech up. It is the EXACT same thing aliens do to the marines, except they dont have to tech up anything to do it effectively.
<!--QuoteBegin--Trevelyan_006+Feb 28 2003, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan_006 @ Feb 28 2003, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> jetpack "rushing" is nothing then a coordinated effort to stop the aliens from expanding and keep grabbing up res towers for yourself to tech up <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but when that only takes 2 nodes and you've probably taken down the hive just as the gorge has got up his second node - it's a little biased, don't you think
Comments
Am I the only one?
It only takes 1 or two nodes to go straight to jetpack before aliens have a 2nd hive or a sufficient number of lerks. Even if aliens are going lerk, this is an extreme detriment to their team at this juncture, as it is impedeing the resource overflow cap.
The bigger problem is that is takes at least 2-3 lerks to really take down a jetpacker and with a talented enough jetpacker even that is not sufficient. Even in these cirumstances the whole of the alien team is busy dealing with a single marine player giving the marines free run of the map to cap more resources, advance in terroritory or solidfy/take hives
The only thing a sulk can do is parasite and hope the jetpacker screws up by getting too close to the ceiling the walls or the ground. Even if the sulk should happen to be so lucky its only .5 seconds before the jetpacker is jumping in the air again and out of reach.
In the meantime the hive is at some degree of reduced health, the entire alien team is wasting time trying to take care of him and the marines are gaining a strong advantage simply because the rest of their team is free to wander without the pestilence of the remainder of the alien team.
I hate it when people call this a "skill" issue with lerks and sulks. Thats like saying a sulk wasn't "skilled" enough to take down those 3 marines. Or that sulk wasn't "skilled" enough to take down that ha with the hmg.
In all honesty I have done the latter with less difficulty than the prior. Lerks only do what 8 damage per spike? Assuming no upgrades that 150 damage/8 = 18.75 hits on a moving target. Factor in the energy it takes to fly and fire with the possibility of med packs and multiple jet packers and its just riduclous.
On the other hand, I do agree with you that Kharaas lack effective anti-air early game (try playing alien defending Refinery on Bast). There's some discussion out there about switching Blink and Acid Rocket. If it <i>is</i> changed, then the aliens have to <i>try</i> to swipe at jetpackers while falling down from the ceiling.
Suffice to say it feels like a ridculous ammont of spiking.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously. If you didn't have "Playtester" next to your name, I would have hardly believed you even held a position at all, much less lead playtester. You write as if you've been personally wronged, and I find it likely you've had your **** handed to you on a platter in some form regarding the JP rush. It seems like you've been raped one too many times in matches playing as Alien. Then you stoop to threatening people, claiming that because people are using a lame strategy that you yourself as a playtester didn't catch, that the delay in balancing the tech tree would be <b>their</b> fault. I, alont with probably the entire community, would probably rather wait a while and play a balanced game. But then again, I wouldn't want a game balanced by a bigoted, bitter playtester with his head to far up his ****, there's no way in hell he could ever see the future of the game in any shape or form.
Now, /vent off.
The JP rush is unbalanced. But theres nothing wrong with the JP rush in form. The game will always be patched, and this early, things are unbalanced. Now, JP will probably be nerfed to hell because of it's success. I have no problem with that. I am neither against nor for the jetpack. I play with a viable strategy that wins. The JP rush is <b>NOT</b> an exploit. It's simply an overpowered strategy. A JP rush is fine in even a CAL league match, so it's clearly not an exploit.
In the next version, something else will probably be a strong, viable strat, and you'll find me using that when the time comes. Before 1.04, I've never even attempted a JP rush. Because phasing 2 hives and locking them down was so easy and so viable, it was a <b>strong</b> strat. Now, this was nerfed. IP's cost more, phases cost more, and phases now lower amounts of HP. These all seemed to be aimed directly toward stopping the 2 hive phase lockdown. Do you see the pattern? No one here is using the JP rush just to **** you off. They're simply using the most viable strategy.
And yet again, sounding like a child, you sarcastically tell them to test out other strats, "crazy stuff like that." Well, I'll tell you now, I don't listen to that bull. I'll simply wait until the new patch comes out so I actually know what the variables are, and thus can test strats to the greatest efficiency. It only takes a couple days to get a feel and work out new strats.
Firstly, the jetpack rush is used immensly in match's because they count but i can assure you that in practice and scrim practice clans DO try other strats.
Redemption #red is the best example of this type of strat expansion because they do everything you are talking about <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Other then ha, they have mastered every aspect of your list. They tech up jp/hmg while pinning aliens down to 1 hive by send 1-2 guys to each hive and camping them with rsr nodes in each one. They construct mini-base/siege base outside the main hive when they feel they can fend off any 1 hive alien rush that might commense. BEFORE they start their mini-base they check if the aliens have constructed defense at the hive... because if they have lacked in the building of offense/dc's they can just spam it to death. If the aliens have succeeded in defenses/lerks they send their 1*ONLY* jp/hmger to control 1-2 rsr nodes by himself/maybe 1 more lmger until they have a good amount of rsr*
The jp rush is not a rush at all.... it is the second highest tech for marines and takes a very long time to get if you plan to keep supplying your team with the jp's needed to take a hive/alien team down. The only thing that can be refered to an actuall jp rush was against... i think q36... although i'm not sure, they recycle EVERYTHING even ip's just to tech jp's in the very begenning of the game and all out rush your hive before you can get 1 node up... NOW THAT IS A JETPACK RUSH!
My clan and others we play have tried all strats and styles you have given and even more that you have not, in practice and scrim... and we just know that those strats do not work until a new version comes out giving no point to using them until a new version comes out. Pandas used a HA/HMG rush on us a week ago and they died because it took to long for them to get to the hive with slow ha walkin speeds vs skulk spam hit and runs. *they cant use hmg's if they are welding someone* *if you hit more then 1 person then everyone must be welded making more people switch to welder* *more people on welders makes less people holding hmg's*.
Conclusion: Clans ARE trying other strats, they just dont disclouse outcomes of various types because they dont want to help other clans. Clans ONLY use good strats in match's because they count for something: reputation, points, and league status.
*NO FLAME IS MEANT BY THIS POST*
This is my whole problem with "game balancing". Instead of things that arn't fair or actuelly are "Broken", this is allways what happens. Bitching gets strategys that are valid, fair, and even might require personal skill NERFED to hell and back becuase "They work", and thus, the lowest common denominator is pleased. The people that can't win fairly.
When will "Things that work" stop being lumped into the "it has to change" catagory? Really. There's a diffrence.
For a gameplay point of view, I also am not particularly keen on the readily available nature of JPs, since they devalue teamwork. The only reason why they are so cheap is for a fairly dumb reason I am not going to go into now. They worked better when they cost the same as HA. The idea of the marine tech is that each item is useful for a particular role. As it stands, jetpacks are simply a bit too uber. It's not like they'll be removed or made useless. But there's something wrong where JPs are more popular than HA, regardless of resources. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually while we attack we cap about 3-4 nodes, and if the game is not over with our LMG rush, then we tech JPs/HMGs. I do agree with you however that the JP rush is uncounterable for the most part. We've had some success with downing the proto before it could hurt us a lot, but we also play extremely aggressive, which a lot of teams dont do.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that.
In regards to what Grendel said about killing a competent Jetpacker its can be extremely difficult, and surely impossible if you have only one hive.
Movement seems to be a difficulty among marines, maybe because my lack of experience in clan games, but this certainly is prevalent in public games. Mobility seems to be difficult for marines and by the time that they secure the 1st hive the 2nd hive is on the way, and for most pubs its difficult to both adequately defend nodes, the hive, and destroy the second hive at the same time. Yes, Not impossible, many times marines have been succesful, its not a constant buts its a trend.
This why the belief that the 2nd hive is almost a guaranteed loss for the marines. Which leads me to my first point, marines almost need to lean back on the strategy, not only to win the game, but to buy time, but jetpacking in , killing the building/built hive and trying over again.
Sorry for any incompleteness, im trying to config router settings and ip's at the same time.
can't wait till 1.1!
(btw i got my clan to try sensory as first ^_^)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the point. Tech up to level 3 weapons/armour before even researching HA, never mind handing it out. Don't even hand out HMGs, just some GLs, and you can take a Fade/Lerk/Gorge combo down.
Thats 112 res you've just destroyed.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologise if I implied that you only actually JP rush off one node, I merely sought to illustrate that it can be done and I felt that given your competetive standing, sYn was a good example as you've illustrated to me previously that it is possible.
Obviously, I didn't mean to say that you hung around in spawn playing backgammon whilst the armoury boogied away until HMGs were available. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, due to time constraints, unless you chaps wanted to wait another 2 months for NS, we were pushed to release NS before we tested the last parts of the techtree as much as we liked. As a result, jetpacks are somewhat unbalanced (SOME testers already suggested this).
1.1 will be tested until we feel that the game is properly balanced. As a consequence, rapid teching to Jetpacks will not be feasible as a winning strategy. So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA. Crazy stuff like that. Otherwise, when 1.1 comes out, you'll be totally screwed.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*ignores rest of the thread*
I've had this happen on several occasions. I've played this scenario a few times on Kharaa and a few on Marines, and jetpack rushing is by far one of the most deadliest tactics that I have seen arise thus far. Very recently I was playing Kharaa on Bast, the second hive was being built in the Engine room with the first located at Ventilation.
We had fairly secure defenses on both hives, when out of nowhere 3 marines with jetpacks and HMGs rush in fly around like maniacs shooting the hive. Needless to say without leap, trying to attack a flying marine in a space as large as this hive is virtually impossible. It involves running up a wall, trying to run over to the marine flying along the roof avoiding HMG fire, not falling OFF the roof, and dying 20 times before you manage to take ONE of them down. By the time it was over they had all flown off and we were one hive short.
With our main hive destroyed, and engine hive at around 90%. The 3 of us that remained couldn't do anything to stop the marines when they started attacking the Engine hive with jetpacks. Even as we rushed over to the hive from our positions it was basically rushing to our own demise, all 3 of us were met with a hot volley of lead as we rounded the corner into the hive room (Obviously motion tracking)
Other times playing on marines on maps such as Nancy, the Commander has dropped me a welder and a jetpack. 2 VERY VERY cheap items in the marines vast armoury and I have taken down the Noname hive without taking a hit. As much as I enjoyed doing this, I feel that shortening the game using tactics like this ruins a lot of peoples experiences with NS.
With the money it costs to deck out marines in HMGs and HA, the Comm can give EVERY Marine his own jetpack AND a welder several times over (Ok I exaggerate a bit...) Instant flying death. Probably the greatest detrimental factor of one hive Kharaa trying to take down a marine is that a lot of players are staying at 33/33 RPs. Once they reach this, their excess points go straight to the gorge, so you hardly see a lot of lerks flying around with only 1 hive. Add this to the factor that Skulks don't stick very well to a lot of the curved architecture on the roof of a lot of hives and you'll find that a Jetpack rush is EXTREMELY hard to deter.
I can't wait to see some tech tree balances Flay has in store for us! ^_^
rofl, only in pubs
rofl, only in pubs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wanna try scrmming us to see how well we can protect our nozzles at the beginning of the game as one-hive aliens?
Marines can defend it too in the beginning decently easily. You need mines, and constant patrols or putting lots and lots of pressure on the aliens.
I agree it is possible to reach the tech tree with just one nozzle, but to clarify, sYn does not turtle like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologise if I implied that you only actually JP rush off one node, I merely sought to illustrate that it can be done and I felt that given your competetive standing, sYn was a good example as you've illustrated to me previously that it is possible.
Obviously, I didn't mean to say that you hung around in spawn playing backgammon whilst the armoury boogied away until HMGs were available. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I misread it, it was my bad. Late night posting ownz me
Anyway, I had an odd experience on Tanith today where a very good marine team, including at least 4 good clanners, were holding 3 or 4 res nodes (including reac room) and HMG/JP whoring like nothing I've ever seen, causing us real grief. The game went on a long time; a lot of hives died. But in the end, to my surprise, they LOST.
Why? Because they were addicted to HMG/JP hive takedowns. So many marines died doing this that the ground was littered with HMGs and healthpacks. They never got around to getting heavy armour (at least I never saw one). This HMG/JP hive assault must have cost them so much more than just kitting the team out with HA/HMG/GL and moving together to secure the hives properly. It's as if, as Grendel says, they had no other strategies. And towards the end 1 then 2 of their better jetpackers (comm^adonis and 1 other comm^ player) got bored and left, and we eventually took down reactor room, leaving them up shot creek without a paddle.
One interesting strat they used was to pre-healthspam a hive. When you saw health appearing in your hive you knew a JP was arriving in the next 30 seconds <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I comm, I very rarely give out jetpacks; I expect to hold 1 hive and res, then fight, and win, against fades. This is really not that hard, as long as you get some HA, some GLs, and all the arms lab upgrades you can. Jetpacks just seem so cheap.
Strong resource control? Zone Managment? You mean turtling in your base and covering those 3 RT until 4-6 min after the game has started you emerge with HMGs and JPs? And strong teamwork makes it more effective but throw 4 JPers at a hive and it will go down, even if they're ramboing. Plus I'll let you in on a lil secret *its no longer a VERY advanced strat, most players are very well versed in it now*, it does however need a good alien team with great teamwork to stop.
Marines move slow, VERY SLOW compared to Skulks... this game is about owning the map... owning the map is thus impossible to something that can move much faster then you. jetpack "rushing" is nothing then a coordinated effort to stop the aliens from expanding and keep grabbing up res towers for yourself to tech up. It is the EXACT same thing aliens do to the marines, except they dont have to tech up anything to do it effectively.
but when that only takes 2 nodes and you've probably taken down the hive just as the gorge has got up his second node - it's a little biased, don't you think