<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Feb 26 2003, 07:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 26 2003, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's beginning to sicken me the amount of COMMANDERS who are simply jetpack rushing.
Unfortunately, due to time constraints, unless you chaps wanted to wait another 2 months for NS, we were pushed to release NS before we tested the last parts of the techtree as much as we liked. As a result, jetpacks are somewhat unbalanced (SOME testers already suggested this).
1.1 will be tested until we feel that the game is properly balanced. As a consequence, rapid teching to Jetpacks will not be feasible as a winning strategy. So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA. Crazy stuff like that. Otherwise, when 1.1 comes out, you'll be totally screwed. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> AAAHhahaaha If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound. Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. On certain maps it may take a coordination of 2 lerks but on others jet packers just simply do not have enough room to kill 2-3 skulks. Once you find out they going jet packs make sure u have atleast one lerk for every 2 jp they have. The only real strategy for aliens is 1 gorge builds 1 res then 3 d chambers than 2 more res nodes then hive. Anyother way is risking the feared "OFFENSIVE MINING" tactic. Being held down by 2 marines packed with 20 sets of mines is a very embarrasing.
You know what gets me? The more I read this thread, the more I think about what it was formed over...the suggestion that the jet pack rush won't work. Now I'll be the first to admit I don't exactly have keys to the excutive playtesting office, so i dunno how they'd do that, but I have one good idea, and that's nerfing the jet pack in some way.
Will we see it's fuel supply dropped to a few seconds? Or it's price soar to outpace Heavy Armor? Effecting the actuel JP is the easist thing to do, barring some sort of A-A tower in the spirit of the Zerg choosing what sort of O tower they want, and that's weak, in my oh so humble opnion. I mean the thing works, people whine, poof, it's going to get nerfed, somehow. Comeone. Just...do /better/, how about that? My worry isn't so much the short term, but the long term. If this continues, it's only going to get worse. Eventually the same people who found themselves completly unable to adapt to a new tactic will be whining that,"You know what? The Heavy Machine Guns are just /To powerful/." We'll see a thread like
Using the HMG? Better pick a new gun BEFORE 1.5
And I mean, then what? No Phase gates, becuase THEY allow enhanced marine movment as well, sort of the whole point of the jet pack, a tool designed for the slower team? There /are/ ways to change that fairly, it's just they're the hardest ones, like reworking the whole tech tree, or GOD FORBID, as so many have stated here, somehow linking what you can get to how many nodes you control, thus making it "fair". Oh God, would that be horrid...."Come on guys, 4 nods, 4 nods, we need those hmgs." Maybe I'm just over reacting. I hope so.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Feb 28 2003, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Feb 28 2003, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. On certain maps it may take a coordination of 2 lerks but on others jet packers just simply do not have enough room to kill 2-3 skulks. Once you find out they going jet packs make sure u have atleast one lerk for every 2 jp they have. The only real strategy for aliens is 1 gorge builds 1 res then 3 d chambers than 2 more res nodes then hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While it is sometimes POSSIBLE to defend against a JP rush, I would be no means call it simple.
On some maps (eclipse, anyone?) JP rushing is just about impossible to stop. Good rushers will have jetpacks/HMG before most skulks have 33 res - especially if the gorge has to build RT-DCx3, or if the Kharaa has to use multiple gorges.
Even if the jetpackers first rush is defeated, it has hardly cost the marines any resources, so you have to stay on guard for the next wave. In the meantime, HMG/GL armed jetpackers will motion-track down any gorges, lerks or skulks daring to leave the hive, so don't expect to have all that many resource points either.
sorry to burst your buble but its not 3 rps per second with 2 nodes curious gorge its more like 1 rps per 9 seconds.. 2 rts = 2 rps per 9 seconds and so forth. its always gonna be +1 per 9 seconds per rt i believe (depending on the time you build them) but +2 when its 18 or more players on that server ( which ever team has 9 or more they get +2 per node per click) but to the point.. rines can still get jp/hmg a lot quicker than aliens to get 2nd hive up. I have even seen/played in games where we can get jps before they can even put their 1st dc/rt. So im sure flayras taking into account and most likely raise the jp cost as well as the lerk ablities. But its all in good fun.. half the people in pubs dont really know how to effieciently use the jp/hmg ne who and gets mauled over my a lerk/skulk/gorge ne who =D well i could be wrong in any one of these things but what do i know im just a ns freak like you guys =]
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AAAHhahaaha If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound. Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile.
My only concern here is how it becomes "nerfed". JPs are widely used in other tactics and making them expensive or slowing down their discovery in the tech tree would severly inhibit other legitimate and more balanced tactics. It seems the only issue with game balance is that they may be used to rush the hive early. Then I would suggest allowing aliens a better form of defense against JPs. Using JPs earlier to gain access to beneficial terrain (for example the 'red room' to siege via duct hive) is absolutely neccessary in some cases and provides interesting gaming. Holding key ground should not be inhibited by such changes. Adding ranged fire power to aliens earlier may also do more harm than good. Perhaps just target the actual problem and localise changes to that, ie perhaps a hive itself could have a defense mechanism similar to that of an OC but more powerful?
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AAAHhahaaha If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound. Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Grendel plz stop complaining about jps. If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades. carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg.
<!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Mar 1 2003, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Mar 1 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AAAHhahaaha If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound. Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grendel plz stop complaining about jps. If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades. carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Proctologic, I suggest you play on more "advanced" pubs before you start demeaning playtesters.
With that said, I fully agree with Grendel. At the moment there are two types of commanders. Commanders who embrace strategy and try to win the game through normal means (Resource grabbing, Hive containment, ect), and commanders who do a stone-cold build order for the soul purpose of getting a "cheap win." Anyone who has been playing NS since its release will notice this.
"Jetpack tech-rushes" are an exploit. Now I don't mean just rushing with a Jetpack, as it can also be "legit." However, have you ever seen a Marine who <i>excels</i> at using a Jetpack? It completely throws off the balance of the game. If a 9-credit piece of equipment can <u>bring down a hive</u> and take a complete Kharaa team to kill the wearer - wouldn't you think something is wrong? It's quite clear that the NS team did not intend this abuse of the tech-tree.
<!--QuoteBegin--b00jah+Mar 1 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (b00jah @ Mar 1 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Mar 1 2003, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Mar 1 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 1 2003, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Feb 28 2003, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> AAAHhahaaha If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound. Jet pack rushing is simple to combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grendel plz stop complaining about jps. If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades. carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Proctologic, I suggest you play on more "advanced" pubs before you start demeaning playtesters.
With that said, I fully agree with Grendel. At the moment there are two types of commanders. Commanders who embrace strategy and try to win the game through normal means (Resource grabbing, Hive containment, ect), and commanders who do a stone-cold build order for the soul purpose of getting a "cheap win." Anyone who has been playing NS since its release will notice this.
"Jetpack tech-rushes" are an exploit. Now I don't mean just rushing with a Jetpack, as it can also be "legit." However, have you ever seen a Marine who <i>excels</i> at using a Jetpack? It completely throws off the balance of the game. If a 9-credit piece of equipment can <u>bring down a hive</u> and take a complete Kharaa team to kill the wearer - wouldn't you think something is wrong? It's quite clear that the NS team did not intend this abuse of the tech-tree.
Go, Grendel, Go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow u guys are too stupid to have a lerk sitting on top of a hive shooting down jpers? WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive. Espeically if they build d chambers under hive? LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes. Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Umm... proctologic.. 3 hmg spammer can take a hive down before they finish their 150 clip... are you telling me you can kill all 3 as a lerk before they reach 100 shots into the hive? Dc's WILL not make any difference other then ~10 shots for the 3 hmgers unless given enough time.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Mar 1 2003, 08:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Mar 1 2003, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow u guys are too stupid to have a lerk sitting on top of a hive shooting down jpers? WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive. Espeically if they build d chambers under hive? LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes. Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jetpackers don't use LMGs when attacking hives.
i would have to agree that aliens dont really have a counter for a good Jetpacker with a HMG. unless they have 2 hives up, and umbra/fades then if i have a HMGJP i can take down any hive. hovering in midair with unlimited jetpack fuel.
if a lerk is at the hive, which is usually unlikely as they are off doing whatever they do, either strafe past his shots and get your comm to med you, or go shove a HMG in its face.
maybee jetpack fuel should be looked into, with a lerk with 1 hive i find it annoying trying to fly and shoot as my adren always runs out, with jetpack the fuel only used when you burn, and all it needs is a tiny tap to keep floating for hours.
<!--QuoteBegin--Proctologic+Mar 1 2003, 05:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proctologic @ Mar 1 2003, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow u guys are too stupid to have a lerk sitting on top of a hive shooting down jpers? WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive. Espeically if they build d chambers under hive? LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes. Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, first off: JP rushes usually take place BEFORE the gorge gets the 2nd Res nozzle(IE: most aliens have less than 33 Res), so the chance that you'll have a lerk is NIL, zip, zero, zillch.
You can counter JP rushes, but it requires a lot of teamwork... and if there's more than 1-2 JP'ers you're screwed.
I know I've fought on this very forum for the non nerfing of the JP and how any tactic should be beatable, but uhm....well.
Look. I know I don't suck. Anyone that's seen me play might have noticed i'm not Pvt|Lohne anymore, I'm Cpl|Lohne. Granted, who cares if I give myself promotions, what does that prove. It proves that in my eyes i"m getting measurably better at the game. I am, as it stands, in perhaps the upper 70percentile of marine skill, but the lower end of it, I admit, and that skill is nearly equal in the alien side. My point is, I don't suck, I'm actuelly preety good, and carapace this, carapace that, More than one jper in your hive means 4 guys are going to be shooting the hive, and one is more than likley shooting you. This is all, mind you, going on without the politness of letting you know which are doing which. It's a /HARD/ as hell strat to counter. Basiclly you have to rush and have a few skulks allways harrasing the nodes, to cut back on rez to the marines. That there is a clearly defined way to beat it dosnt mean it's EASY man, and I for one don't get why you imply the /lead tester/, one we'd all assume would be, what, in the top 95 percentile of marine skill, is in some way "skill defficent" and thus unable to lay down an opinion on something. I don't /agree/ with this opnion, but his postion alone makes me question the validity of my own.
Although this topic has probably been beat into the ground (and no, i didn't read all the posts, so apologies in advance for repeating), I'd just like to chip in.
I agree very strongly with Grendel. There's a difference between <b>an</b> effective strat and <b>THE</b> effective strat. From my observation, the marine (and possibly jp) rush is THE tactic of choice. There is no alternative that matches the JP rush in speed, resource efficiency, and combat effectiveness.
The problem arises when the JP rush is THE tactic. There is not a huge amount of strategy behind it. So you have to hide your res nozzles? The aliens have to defend against your rush, or they get spawn camped for the loss. Which means they need EVERYONE with them. Which means (with earlygame marine firepower) you can have one marine running around the map capping with impunity.
This, more or less, turns natural-selection clan matches into an FPS game more than an RTS game. The game, in pubs, is SO much more fun. You have to account for more conservative strategies, since you can't rely on everyone to have unerring shots. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.
What is the counter to the marine rush in clan games? With the long alien spawn time, with unupgraded guns being able to take down a skulk in 9(?) shots, and with (essentially) one spawn point, even one halfskilled marine can get away with camping spawns for a while. The aliens just lack the means to counter this early strategy.
What we have here a severe departure from the intended RTS aspect of the game. Instead of the epic flanking manuevers and unexpected sieges, we have rush rush rush rush. I've rarely seen or even heard of a scrim/match that's gone past a first hive. I believe the NS team should work to correct the disparity between the two modes (pub/clan) of play, before everyone who learns the game learns it under the marine rush. Even pub play in CS could remotely resemble clan play.
Comments
Unfortunately, due to time constraints, unless you chaps wanted to wait another 2 months for NS, we were pushed to release NS before we tested the last parts of the techtree as much as we liked. As a result, jetpacks are somewhat unbalanced (SOME testers already suggested this).
1.1 will be tested until we feel that the game is properly balanced. As a consequence, rapid teching to Jetpacks will not be feasible as a winning strategy. So start trying other stuff. Mini-bases. Controlling resources. Gorge hunting. Pinning aliens down in their hive. Using HA. Crazy stuff like that. Otherwise, when 1.1 comes out, you'll be totally screwed.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
AAAHhahaaha
If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
On certain maps it may take a coordination of 2 lerks but on others jet packers just simply do not have enough room to kill 2-3 skulks.
Once you find out they going jet packs make sure u have atleast one lerk for every 2 jp they have.
The only real strategy for aliens is 1 gorge builds 1 res then 3 d chambers than 2 more res nodes then hive.
Anyother way is risking the feared "OFFENSIVE MINING" tactic.
Being held down by 2 marines packed with 20 sets of mines is a very embarrasing.
Will we see it's fuel supply dropped to a few seconds? Or it's price soar to outpace Heavy Armor? Effecting the actuel JP is the easist thing to do, barring some sort of A-A tower in the spirit of the Zerg choosing what sort of O tower they want, and that's weak, in my oh so humble opnion. I mean the thing works, people whine, poof, it's going to get nerfed, somehow. Comeone. Just...do /better/, how about that? My worry isn't so much the short term, but the long term. If this continues, it's only going to get worse. Eventually the same people who found themselves completly unable to adapt to a new tactic will be whining that,"You know what? The Heavy Machine Guns are just /To powerful/." We'll see a thread like
Using the HMG?
Better pick a new gun BEFORE 1.5
And I mean, then what? No Phase gates, becuase THEY allow enhanced marine movment as well, sort of the whole point of the jet pack, a tool designed for the slower team? There /are/ ways to change that fairly, it's just they're the hardest ones, like reworking the whole tech tree, or GOD FORBID, as so many have stated here, somehow linking what you can get to how many nodes you control, thus making it "fair". Oh God, would that be horrid...."Come on guys, 4 nods, 4 nods, we need those hmgs." Maybe I'm just over reacting. I hope so.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
On certain maps it may take a coordination of 2 lerks but on others jet packers just simply do not have enough room to kill 2-3 skulks.
Once you find out they going jet packs make sure u have atleast one lerk for every 2 jp they have.
The only real strategy for aliens is 1 gorge builds 1 res then 3 d chambers than 2 more res nodes then hive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it is sometimes POSSIBLE to defend against a JP rush, I would be no means call it simple.
On some maps (eclipse, anyone?) JP rushing is just about impossible to stop. Good rushers will have jetpacks/HMG before most skulks have 33 res - especially if the gorge has to build RT-DCx3, or if the Kharaa has to use multiple gorges.
Even if the jetpackers first rush is defeated, it has hardly cost the marines any resources, so you have to stay on guard for the next wave. In the meantime, HMG/GL armed jetpackers will motion-track down any gorges, lerks or skulks daring to leave the hive, so don't expect to have all that many resource points either.
If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile.
My only concern here is how it becomes "nerfed". JPs are widely used in other tactics and making them expensive or slowing down their discovery in the tech tree would severly inhibit other legitimate and more balanced tactics. It seems the only issue with game balance is that they may be used to rush the hive early. Then I would suggest allowing aliens a better form of defense against JPs. Using JPs earlier to gain access to beneficial terrain (for example the 'red room' to siege via duct hive) is absolutely neccessary in some cases and provides interesting gaming. Holding key ground should not be inhibited by such changes. Adding ranged fire power to aliens earlier may also do more harm than good. Perhaps just target the actual problem and localise changes to that, ie perhaps a hive itself could have a defense mechanism similar to that of an OC but more powerful?
Cheers
If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel plz stop complaining about jps.
If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades.
carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg.
When the marines are grounded, Skulks can get them: solving the "no equivalent tech" problem.
That MeltedSnowman nub really knows what he's talking about. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel plz stop complaining about jps.
If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades.
carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Proctologic, I suggest you play on more "advanced" pubs before you start demeaning playtesters.
With that said, I fully agree with Grendel. At the moment there are two types of commanders. Commanders who embrace strategy and try to win the game through normal means (Resource grabbing, Hive containment, ect), and commanders who do a stone-cold build order for the soul purpose of getting a "cheap win." Anyone who has been playing NS since its release will notice this.
"Jetpack tech-rushes" are an exploit. Now I don't mean just rushing with a Jetpack, as it can also be "legit." However, have you ever seen a Marine who <i>excels</i> at using a Jetpack? It completely throws off the balance of the game. If a 9-credit piece of equipment can <u>bring down a hive</u> and take a complete Kharaa team to kill the wearer - wouldn't you think something is wrong? It's quite clear that the NS team did not intend this abuse of the tech-tree.
Go, Grendel, Go.
Erm, no. They are unbalanced, you may wish to describe them as lame, but JP/HMG rushing is hardly an exploit.
If you cant figure out the simple solution to this you must be as dense as your posts makes u sound.
Jet pack rushing is simple to combat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's comments like that that really make the last 9 months work worthwhile. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel plz stop complaining about jps.
If they jp rush Its simply going to kill their ability get res nodes up early and if their jp attack fails it actually completely kills them since they wasted the res on jps instead of other res nodes and gun upgrades.
carapiced lerk under a hive >>>>> 2 jpers with lvl 0 lmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Proctologic, I suggest you play on more "advanced" pubs before you start demeaning playtesters.
With that said, I fully agree with Grendel. At the moment there are two types of commanders. Commanders who embrace strategy and try to win the game through normal means (Resource grabbing, Hive containment, ect), and commanders who do a stone-cold build order for the soul purpose of getting a "cheap win." Anyone who has been playing NS since its release will notice this.
"Jetpack tech-rushes" are an exploit. Now I don't mean just rushing with a Jetpack, as it can also be "legit." However, have you ever seen a Marine who <i>excels</i> at using a Jetpack? It completely throws off the balance of the game. If a 9-credit piece of equipment can <u>bring down a hive</u> and take a complete Kharaa team to kill the wearer - wouldn't you think something is wrong? It's quite clear that the NS team did not intend this abuse of the tech-tree.
Go, Grendel, Go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow u guys are too stupid to have a lerk sitting on top of a hive shooting down jpers?
WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive.
Espeically if they build d chambers under hive?
LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes.
Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive.
Espeically if they build d chambers under hive?
LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes.
Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpackers don't use LMGs when attacking hives.
if a lerk is at the hive, which is usually unlikely as they are off doing whatever they do, either strafe past his shots and get your comm to med you, or go shove a HMG in its face.
maybee jetpack fuel should be looked into, with a lerk with 1 hive i find it annoying trying to fly and shoot as my adren always runs out, with jetpack the fuel only used when you burn, and all it needs is a tiny tap to keep floating for hours.
WTH is a jetpacker with an lmg going to do against a carapiced lerk flying around under a hive.
Espeically if they build d chambers under hive?
LOl hey wut server u play on dude maybe meet up and i can rape u sometimes.
Afterwards we can have a smoke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, first off:
JP rushes usually take place BEFORE the gorge gets the 2nd Res nozzle(IE: most aliens have less than 33 Res), so the chance that you'll have a lerk is NIL, zip, zero, zillch.
You can counter JP rushes, but it requires a lot of teamwork... and if there's more than 1-2 JP'ers you're screwed.
I know I've fought on this very forum for the non nerfing of the JP and how any tactic should be beatable, but uhm....well.
Look. I know I don't suck. Anyone that's seen me play might have noticed i'm not Pvt|Lohne anymore, I'm Cpl|Lohne. Granted, who cares if I give myself promotions, what does that prove. It proves that in my eyes i"m getting measurably better at the game. I am, as it stands, in perhaps the upper 70percentile of marine skill, but the lower end of it, I admit, and that skill is nearly equal in the alien side. My point is, I don't suck, I'm actuelly preety good, and carapace this, carapace that, More than one jper in your hive means 4 guys are going to be shooting the hive, and one is more than likley shooting you. This is all, mind you, going on without the politness of letting you know which are doing which. It's a /HARD/ as hell strat to counter. Basiclly you have to rush and have a few skulks allways harrasing the nodes, to cut back on rez to the marines. That there is a clearly defined way to beat it dosnt mean it's EASY man, and I for one don't get why you imply the /lead tester/, one we'd all assume would be, what, in the top 95 percentile of marine skill, is in some way "skill defficent" and thus unable to lay down an opinion on something. I don't /agree/ with this opnion, but his postion alone makes me question the validity of my own.
I agree very strongly with Grendel. There's a difference between <b>an</b> effective strat and <b>THE</b> effective strat. From my observation, the marine (and possibly jp) rush is THE tactic of choice. There is no alternative that matches the JP rush in speed, resource efficiency, and combat effectiveness.
The problem arises when the JP rush is THE tactic. There is not a huge amount of strategy behind it. So you have to hide your res nozzles? The aliens have to defend against your rush, or they get spawn camped for the loss. Which means they need EVERYONE with them. Which means (with earlygame marine firepower) you can have one marine running around the map capping with impunity.
This, more or less, turns natural-selection clan matches into an FPS game more than an RTS game. The game, in pubs, is SO much more fun. You have to account for more conservative strategies, since you can't rely on everyone to have unerring shots. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.
What is the counter to the marine rush in clan games? With the long alien spawn time, with unupgraded guns being able to take down a skulk in 9(?) shots, and with (essentially) one spawn point, even one halfskilled marine can get away with camping spawns for a while. The aliens just lack the means to counter this early strategy.
What we have here a severe departure from the intended RTS aspect of the game. Instead of the epic flanking manuevers and unexpected sieges, we have rush rush rush rush. I've rarely seen or even heard of a scrim/match that's gone past a first hive. I believe the NS team should work to correct the disparity between the two modes (pub/clan) of play, before everyone who learns the game learns it under the marine rush. Even pub play in CS could remotely resemble clan play.
-Ayatollah
ns.astimulus.com