An Exploit Is An Exploit...
Anavrin
Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1734Members
Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1734Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...is an exploit is an exploit.</div>How can anyone even begin to justify that having siege cannons in the corner of Processing is legit?
It's exploiting a map's flaw, yet people somehow think it's OK to do because it involves no hacks and is not a bug in the game's code. Even though people know that being able to hold one hive and being in range to siege another is clearly not something that is intended nor allowed, they still do it.
I just came back from a game where the marines successfully relocated to Processing, built up a fully functional, turret-farmed base, and legitimately fought through to the Maintenance Hive (Ventilation?). But instead of dropping a phase gate and securing it with turrets, the comm decided to build a siege cannon in the corner. As soon as I speak out against having a siege cannon there, three marines tell me that it's not an exploit, two of which were on well known clans. Normally, I wouldn't be surprised if this was coming from any other pub server where people have no honour, but it was on CoFR's server and with clan members. Frankly, I expected the combination to mean that these people were honourable and fought with honesty. I'm not sure the server admins allow this or there just wasn't an admin around, but there was nothing I could do to force the (competent) commander to sell the siege cannon.
Luckily, the comm eventually listened to my pleas (or whining, whatever you want to call it) after 4 siege shots and stopped sweeping the Maint hive. We promptly got overwhelmed by Fades, but it was a fair game. Had the marines decided to play legitimately and build gates and turrets around the hive, we would've won. As far as I care, relocating to processing is a perfectly legitimate move; it's just placing siege cannons in the corner and then proceeding to ping the hive that really upsets me.
So here's my plea to you: if you ever are on a server and you see the comm exploiting the processing-to-hive map flaw, try to convince him to stop. Chances are he won't listen to a lowly marine, but just try to give the aliens a fair game. The whole reason I'm so against this is because I'm sure we've all played as alien and had marines exploit the Processing siege flaw to us, and we know how frustrating it is to legitimately fight our way through to the Maintainance hive, only to lose it to an unfair flaw in the map.
If you're an alien and you tell them to stop, chances are they'll think you're a sore loser, but if you're a marine and tell the commander to stop, then the comm _will_ listen to you if he has any shred of honour. Hopefully 1.1 will fix this.
It's exploiting a map's flaw, yet people somehow think it's OK to do because it involves no hacks and is not a bug in the game's code. Even though people know that being able to hold one hive and being in range to siege another is clearly not something that is intended nor allowed, they still do it.
I just came back from a game where the marines successfully relocated to Processing, built up a fully functional, turret-farmed base, and legitimately fought through to the Maintenance Hive (Ventilation?). But instead of dropping a phase gate and securing it with turrets, the comm decided to build a siege cannon in the corner. As soon as I speak out against having a siege cannon there, three marines tell me that it's not an exploit, two of which were on well known clans. Normally, I wouldn't be surprised if this was coming from any other pub server where people have no honour, but it was on CoFR's server and with clan members. Frankly, I expected the combination to mean that these people were honourable and fought with honesty. I'm not sure the server admins allow this or there just wasn't an admin around, but there was nothing I could do to force the (competent) commander to sell the siege cannon.
Luckily, the comm eventually listened to my pleas (or whining, whatever you want to call it) after 4 siege shots and stopped sweeping the Maint hive. We promptly got overwhelmed by Fades, but it was a fair game. Had the marines decided to play legitimately and build gates and turrets around the hive, we would've won. As far as I care, relocating to processing is a perfectly legitimate move; it's just placing siege cannons in the corner and then proceeding to ping the hive that really upsets me.
So here's my plea to you: if you ever are on a server and you see the comm exploiting the processing-to-hive map flaw, try to convince him to stop. Chances are he won't listen to a lowly marine, but just try to give the aliens a fair game. The whole reason I'm so against this is because I'm sure we've all played as alien and had marines exploit the Processing siege flaw to us, and we know how frustrating it is to legitimately fight our way through to the Maintainance hive, only to lose it to an unfair flaw in the map.
If you're an alien and you tell them to stop, chances are they'll think you're a sore loser, but if you're a marine and tell the commander to stop, then the comm _will_ listen to you if he has any shred of honour. Hopefully 1.1 will fix this.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I'm tempted to agree with you but... It's certainly very easy to stop them from relocating, and by doing so its easy to cripple the marines.
So, I wouldn't agree that it is an exploit, because an exploit gives you an unfair advantage over the other team, and can be defined that theres almost nothing the other team can do to counter it.
So, in short, be smart, and don't let them get processing.
I don't believe this.
JP/HMG rushing is designed to let players get out of range from skulks and be able to fire at the same time. I agree it's overpowered, but it's intentionally made. It is a balance issue.
Being in control of one hive and in range of sieging another is not intended. It's never been intended, and is not a balance issue. It is a flaw in the map.
So which one of these definitions do you disagree with?
1) The game is not designed to allow a base at one hive and be in siege range of another. Being able to do so is a flaw.
2) Being able to reach a hive from Processing is a (map) flaw.
3) Using a flaw to gain an unfair advantage is exploiting that flaw. Therefore...
4) Using the processing flaw to gain an unfair advantage in having control over two hives with minimal effor is an exploit.
Likewise, you might as well argue that being able to shoot through walls as a Fade is just as (il)legit as the JP/HMG rush, when it's obvious that one's totally intended but unbalanced, whereas the other is an utter exploit of a flaw of maps that have thin walls. In which case, if you do agree, there's really no point in trying to argue with you.
Just stop the siege from going up.
IMHO, no 2 hives should be destroyable/defendable from 1 location. Then you just get Marines camping there for the boring few minutes it takes to get all the upgrades so they can stomp your piddly little skulk ****.
Alot of people seem to think that if its a bug in the map, its not an exploit. What they don't seem to realize is many of the maps were created before much of the stuff in NS was finalized, including siege range from what I understand. Its very hard to build a map only to later find out that if somone puts siege <here> it can hit <this> and <this>, then you have to move everything around, which may create more problems with balance and errors.
Remember: Just because you CAN dosen't mean its not an exploit.
I can easily download aimbots and wallhacks, but that dosent mean they arent cheats just because anyone can use them does it?
What I'm saying is that if you are not able to stop them, which happens most of the time on well organized servers like CoFR, then the game's hopeless. It doesn't matter how good you are, but once they have turrets and spawn points at Processing, there's not a damn thing the aliens can do. I don't care about the exception where the entire marine team was just a mass of inaccurate players who wound up losing processing; those are the exception, not the rule. Even you have to admit that it's ridiculously easy to hold Processing, given you have turrets set up. And that's perfectly fine; throw in the siege cannon and that's where things get messed up.
There's something fundamentally wrong with being able to do absolutely nothing to get back the two hives from a marine base that has turtled itself in. Honestly, would game leagues allow people to use strategies like this? Obviously not, and for a good reason.
Read the post again - I clearly state that the thin wall allows Fades to shoot acid rockets through them. I know siege is determined by distance, not wall thickness.
And yes, siege range was upped from 15 to 25 due to a typo in the code. So the map author clearly had no opportunity to make sure siege could not reach the second hive. If he wanted the location to be able to reach two hives, he would've put the two hives much closer, so that the old range of 15 would reach them.
Obviously, if you put the siege anywhere other than the corner closest to the hive, it can't reach the hive. Therefore, with the range of 15 units when the map was made, there was never any intention of being able to control two hives from one point.
And logically, of course they wouldn't let that. It'd debunk the fundamental gameplay of NS if marines were purposely given a point where they could control two hives and the aliens not (considering they don't have 25 unit range siege weaponry).
I wont say more because im bored about that topic.
I don't know what you base that on. I think this is just a reflection of your personal opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Being able to reach a hive from Processing is a (map) flaw.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is quite possible that the map-maker designed the map that way to make Processing a strategically very important area. As stated earlier the siege *cost* and not the range was the error. The range has actually been *reduced* since the maps were made, as far as I know (to accomodate the problem of sieging Engine hive from Marine Base on ns_bast if I recall correctly).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't matter how good you are, but once they have turrets and spawn points at Processing, there's not a damn thing the aliens can do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a hyperbole. Only a few days ago the Marines relocated to Processing and had a *huge* turretfarm, complete with mines and sieges. The alien team worked together to make sure the Marines weren't able to expand and took over the whole map. With Marines stuck with one node we had 2-3 Lerks constantly spiking the turrets and welders while the skulks just kept massing up and rushing. Basically we managed to destroy more resources per minute then they were able to get from the one res node, and slowly slowly their base withered away. We even started the hives several times, which forced the marines to waste resources on pinging them. In the end, we won, and this was against a good team of marine regulars.
In conclusion, I do not consider it an exploit. The map is designed that way and is played that way. Whether you like it or not is up to you (I hate it, I think the map stinks, mostly because of processing). If you want to suggest to your team, in an intelligent and civilised manner, that it is unsporting to do it that's fine, but do not claim it is an exploit because on our server it is not considered as such (or on any server I know for that matter, not that I know of many).
I suggest you either refrain from playing ns_hera on our server or adjust to the fact that it is a legit tactic. The fact that it's an extremely biased map because of it is another discussion and up to the maps creator to amend.
Also, if you have specific complaints about our server (this would be a borderline case I guess) I would appreciate it if you would post on our forums instead: <a href='http://www.cofrfps.com' target='_blank'>CoFR-FPS</a>
Hey, if you are going to go easy on inexperianced players, do so. However, any experianced team will counter the ns_processing tactic with a minimum of trouble. Hey, if their entire plan is known every game, and you still lose, is it an exploit or incompetence? Work as a team, and relocating marines won't stand much of a chance, it gives the aliens an automatic parasite on the team as a whole, and an ambush should be VERY easy to plan.
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[EDIT]I don't particularly like ns_hera, because its far too easy to win as aliens. Most marine teams go for nothing but processing, and the counter alien rush determines the game. As marines, I NEVER go to processing, because any decent team will know how to counter it, and any alien team that would let the marine team take processing deserves to lose in a much more humiliating way. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> [/EDIT]
Start in Viaduct, marines get cargo, redroom, powersilo
Start in Cargo, marines ueberrush you to keep your res down, otherwise, take power, and redroom (not necessarily in that order).
It's a fun map, just impossible to defeat a resource-rich marine force.
By the way, those aren't "exploits" like sieging a hive from an unfair location, it's just a little too easy for marines to win using such a strategy.
[edit] oh yeah, what this has to do with exploits.
Sometimes it's not necessarily an exploit, it's just bad map design, or an excellent/unbeatable marine strategy for that map. [/edit]
[sarcasim]
1: Fades attacking before the mariens get HMG and HA, oviously, HMG and HA was designed to fight Fades, so if you aren't attacking HA/HMG with your Fades, are aren't playing the game as intended, therefore, exploit! This works both ways.
2: Destroying Marine Res Nodes, the game wasn't intended for the marines to only have 1 or 2 nodes the whole game, so preventing them from having them is an exploit!
3: Killing any hive at anytime from any distance is an EXPLOIT!
4: Anytime the aliens have more players than the marines, EXPLOIT!
5: Seiging from Redroom, EXPLOIT!
6: Being in a vent, EXPLOIT!
[/sarcasim]
I hope I've made my point...it isn't an exploit, if its anything, its the mappers fault, and its a valid tactic.
Wanna know some REAL exploits?
1: Fades shooting through certain sealed vents and doors.
Thats all I got...reguardless, stop whining.
Exploits are not neccessarily bugs. Double-siege points are a MAP exploit. Re-basing to them is pitifully easy, in most cases. Especially so on Hera, where Processing is painfully simple to defend... a single re-base point, holding down TWO Hives from ever being built, without the Kharaa taking down the Marine base first... all with one-hive tech. AKA, you need idiot Marines and a GOOD Kharaa team. Neither of which is likely on a pub, without specifically setting up a stacked team (all clanners versus all non-clanners, for example).
Similar with building Sieges *inside* certain walls on certain maps (please, no one list where or which maps) which can never be destroyed.
On a good chunk of actively adminned servers, taking advantage of map bugs is a bannable offense.
I know its cheap for the marines to do it, but until the next version of the map comes out we'll have to live with it.
I think the Doube Siege Point in Hera was originally a mapper error but I think later it became adopted as a legitimate strategic point of the map, much like the strategic importance of a Double Node Point.
Why I don't consider it an exploit is because the area only becomes strategically valuable <i>after you <b>capture</b> Processing</i>.
If both sides have an equal opportunity to capture a strategically important point on the map then the side that takes it has won the right to utilze the point for their advantage. Think of it like a Double Node Points
If a Double Siege Point was in the Marine Spawn, then I agree it's an exploit because one side gained an advantage automatically and without an opportunity to counter. Hence that is why 'no muzzleflash/bite model' is an exploit, it gives someone an unfair advantage with no possibility of a counter that balances out the advantage.
Processing is not a exploit because you have a range of counters available to you before or after it is captured. Containing them and restricting resources has been mentioned as one suggestion for after they set up, good skulk presense at DC and Processing is another suggestion for before they set up.
I think it is known by almost everyone that Processing is a vital point on Hera so play accordingly. Just like you would place special strategic importance on the Double Node Points of other maps.
<i>I just got back from the bar and I'm feeling a little woozy so excuse me if this makes no sense... *LoL*... <b>damn</b> those Rum & Cokes, <b>damn tasty</b> is what they are...</i>
Just stop the siege from going up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you realise the power of 5 marines (skills or no skills) with about 20-30 mines, 2 IPs, and a couple of turrets few feet away. That's definately more than enough to stop an area from being controled, and possible to get within the first 5 minutes of the game. It's simply a matter of time before they get seige up.
You'll have to stop then before they even set up a base.. which can be extremely hard if you got a few marines that know how to aim. Unupgraded skulks are very easy to kill.
Of course..... I have been banned for winning before, off of a server that shall remain nameless. If fact, the bad-natured op, who shall also remain nameless, banned the entire alien team from the server after the aliens where able to bring the marines to the brink of losing.
So....... I'll consider it an exploit IF and only IF multiple servers will ban a team for continually using this "tactic" or if a Dev will call it such.
That said I don't think it's that great of an exploit to siege from processing. As Fantasmo said, both teams have an equal chance to take processing first. In fact Kharaa has an advantage since two of their possible starting hives is closer to processing than marine spawn. It's true that marines in mass can take out a skulk easy but that is under the assumption that the skulk is alone and that the skulk didn't ambush.
Just take a look at mess hall in Nancy. That is one of the skulks favorit ambush point. Marines know going in there that they will be ambushed and yet they allmost allways have trouble taking it. Point is choose your battelfields. Send out reacon to discover wich rout the marines are taking and set up a propper ambush. The room betwine Holo room and processing is great for ambushes.
<i>Know thy enemy, know thy self and your victory will never be in danger</i>
Look, it's like any of the other 'all or nothing' tactics that have sprung up in 1.04.
IE The 'rines try it, and either mince the aliens, or get soundly trounced less than 5 mins later. There is no inbetween.
Sure, it makes for a less interesting game, but if their comm wants to go that way, all the Marine players should be aware that if it doesn't work, this round is probably <b>over</b>. Let 'em go for it I say.
Oh, and Nothing isn't unbalanced, the only problem is the 3 RT's around Cargo. Red room SHOULD be secured long before they JP in there, so if you let 'em, that's your problem I'm afraid.
You can capture processing as well as marines can. If you let them go in, it's your fault and if you let them build sieges you'll have to deal with it.
The aliens are much faster than marines and can get in a hive in a couple of seconds. They should be able to be there before marines.
It's a war between Kharaa and Frontiersmen. Frontiersmen can use the technology they have to do their best to prevent the Kharaa menace.
When you play ns_nothing as alien, you make every effort to keep the marines out of cargo bay and you make sure you have chambers in the red room before the jetpackers get there. When you play ns_tanith, you don't allow the marines to control the reactor room. When you play ns_nancy, you don't lose mess hall or mother interface for that matter. Likewise, when you play ns_hera, you dont allow the marines to control processing. Failure in any of these, 'strategic locations' will severely inhibit your chances of winning.
I think I was admin on the server when you were complaining too, Talesin. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the ways of building inside walls and spawning outside of the map. Those I look at in a completely different fashion. I have noted a few, but never banned people for it. I simply warned them that it was frowned upon. I rarely ever see them used in fact.
A number of players have started requesting map votes when ns_hera comes up in the cycle. If I am on, I generally put it to a vote. Surprisingly, many times the vote has not succeeded, as some people really like the map.
Okay, he is a much better shot than I'll ever be and I don't blame the guy for doing what he can to push his team into a good position. It's just that seeing that type of thing doesn't help anyone's mood much. I look forward to seeing the difference v1.1 makes.
But here's what I now see as the problem with looking at the double seige locations as a valid tactic.
1. Processing is taken quite easily, and is easier to defend if there is a ranged weapon involved due to the corridor you are forced into. To a ranged unit, there are several locations where you may crouch and have full view of all entrances, all (save maybe one) allowing you and allies experienced or not to kill several fully carapaced skulks (most likely not around at this time) with relative ease. Of course this is considering noone does anything stupid like run into another marine's line of fire to dodge a skulk.
Stupidity is a common human problem, but I'll try to leave it out for now as I am prone to suffer from it at times.
2. Processing has a grand total of one easily held resource nozzle. Normaly if there is a rush to Processing everything the marines hold that is not in Processing will quickly be obliterated to deny the marines resources.
This means the aliens have control of the map and all other resources...but they may still lose because marines can easily hold the area until it is turret farmed beyond belief, and with added mines for kicks. One resource may not seem like alot, but it is more than sufficient to slowly defend one spot already heavily guarded by all of the marines.
I think the idea was that this is as much a race to get resources as it is to get hives, if so... the marines should be sooo owned, but aliens have no way of using the extra resources at one hive. Well they could all go lerk, but anyone that has lerked processing knows it's just a way of annoying the marines more than destroying a base. Skulks are the ones who get the job done, and they can't touch it.
3. This goes without saying but (I'm sure we've all been surprised by some one talking smack about accomplishing a physically impossible feat due to the nature of the game.), you can't gorge rush this type of expansion....well you can but I dislike the idea of having gorge bits pelt me as a seige plasters one.
4. The cramped space only adds to the attackers' dismay after buildings appear out of thin air. I'm sorry, but no. Place usually gets so cramped with turrets and mines it is suicide to even look at the place. It would be a beautiful sight for an area of effect attack, but no. Sorry, there is none at the one hive stage, unless you can heal buildings to death.
One might argue, "But you can get behind the buildings because of the clutter," Yeah...how long is some one going to let you sit there chomping on something, especially when all the marines are in this one spot? And how long does it take to give a marine a welder? Yeah, not as long as it takes you to respawn and get back there.
Okay, ways I've seen aliens take this place back.
1. Never letting the enemy get to processing: Works well if you aren't against the "elite" crew. I'm sorry but a decently experienced marine will kill an equally experienced skulk 90% of the time, much less these guys with near "good cheat" quality skills. Sometimes I wonder what they do for a living....then I remember alot of them are just over half my age.
2. Luck: People say luck is an absence of skill. I laugh at those pitiful clueless wretches. Luck applies to all aspects of life, whereas skill can only be applied to one thing at a time. I'd rather be insanely lucky (life and gaming in general) than skilled at first person shooters and horrible at everything else. Though a little skill never hurts. So remember kiddies, when you say "That was SOOO luck! I OwNz0R j00 in skill!!" You're admitting that you are less lucky than this particular individual, and therefore less adept at life.
3. Mass grouped rushing: Works well if Processing is in it's early stages or just an expansion base. Next to worthless against a moderately defended main marine base.
4. Sneaking a hive up: So rare that I shouldn't bother mentioning it. Any commander with the ability to follow a preset build order after watching another commander do the same thing repeatedly(which doesn't take much topside), can surely ping the hives once every 20 seconds or so.
Managed to get one up and keep it up through use of mass D chambers once. But that was only because a very lucky and fairly skilled skulk was able to take down a seige cannon capable of reaching the hive itsself without the marines noticing. The massive clutter in their base didn't allow them to build another within range. Strange and rare, but true.
So far the best tactic I've seen for stopping a rush in it's tracks is to put up a couple offensive chambers within processing as early as possible, then have a very large number of skulks watching it since OCs alone are an easy kill. Leaves Hera open for attack, and the aliens down on resources early in the game, but at least it does something.
Each team is supposed to need to hold two points, for the game to be in a balanced state. The marines' ability to make their fight into a one-front war, with the RP they *start off* with, is pretty cheeseball. Not to mention only adds to their overpowered nature, at the moment. (As has been said many times in the past; a team of Marines with decent skill will wipe the floor with an equally-skilled team of aliens, nearly every time.)
Sorry to hear you had a bad day and then had a bad game to follow. I really must bring up the issue of people using the 'silent' crouched hopping. I do find it annoying myself to watch. From the sounds of it, it was a bad day all around on the server. I was busy watching videos instead of playing, so I don't know how many admins were around on the server. When I finally came on we had some members of a well known NS clan basically ignoring all the server rules and telling the regulars to shut up. I ended up flipping my lid and telling them they were welcome to go play elsewhere.
So I had a bad day too! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hence my presence on the forums atm. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I am taking a break so I can regain my calm.
[off-topic]/me bangs head aginst wall.
I guess you spent 2 years developing NS so you can make sweeping statements about how the game is <i>supposed</i> to be ? Nope you didn't, so please don't post saying you know the developers intentions.[/off-topic]
Relocating to processing is
1. A royal pain in the rear for aliens.
2. A broken strat, it's too powerful. It's actually quite hard to stop given early game marine dominance.
3. Not an exploit however.
4. Probably not gonna be viable in 1.1 as i'll eat my hat if hera doesn't get tweaked.
Re: siege range, all the maps were tested with the current (1.04) range. Shortly before release of 1.0, it was upped, with pretty much nil PT'ing. After release it became apparent this broke bast and hera and was reduced to pre-release range in the current 1.04.
Nothings fine. I've already posted to this effect before. I've seen every combination of hive starts win and lose on nothing, with even teams. Cargos a res rich location, but it doesn't win the game for either team.