TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Uh.. Phoenix? That little tidbit had been posted to the forums previously by a dev, at one point. Same with the game's balance-point being at a two-hive state, and that three-hive Alien weapons were game-enders, and not intended to be balanced against maximum Marine tech.
Here's a funny moment, I have no opinion on the matter. I've been lammed, hacked(possibly,how do you ever realy know), bum rushed, *%# kicked legitamitly, #(@ kicked becuase my team was incompetent, but I've never in a whole lot of months playing had an /entire/ win or loss that was attributied to an exploit, so I can't offer anything intelligent. maybe I've just been lucky, but as far as everyone I play with apperntly knows, "Map exploits" didn't exist yet. I'm still trying to find that one stop you're talking about myself.
Yo Mustard. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry to hear about the surprise you found on the server. Heh, just one reason besides my inherent lack of skill that I'll never again try to join a clan. Sadly this'll leave me on the pubs for the rest of my NS career but I'm willing to live with it.
Not to say they are all bad or nuthin', but I can't stand the way some of these guys get a sense of superiority stuck in their heads...makin' them all little "gods" and thusly making exploits, cheats, rule breaking, and general bad sportsmanship fair game. Gives the good clans a bad name, and the bad ones...a deserved one.
I'm pretty much vented, got my sweet iced tea goin'...so I'll probably head back into the fray until my schedule catches up with me.
Edit:
Talesin, you're my hero. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
its frustrating but thats like saying its not fair for the aliens to use Onos, its a strategic place and its perfectly acceptable to use it, otherwise whats the point in using any strategy? Its very simple, just stop the marines building there before they get masses of turrets up, build your own stuff in that corner
its something the mapper probably didnt realise, but its one small location, aliens will always be able to reach that location before the marines do, so its dead easy to secure, i have only seen them do it once and that was because i didnt know it existed
NOT an exploit, if the aliens can't work as a team to rush TOGETHER as soon as a marine is spotted in processing, they deserve to lose the game TBH..
If the marines get lucky and repel the rushes (which should be rare, think how long it takes to get turrets up sufficiently to ward off aliens who are rushing whole team at a time in the early game with NO RES points), then a couple of mass attacks to take down the observatory will buy you some time. Remember even in the mid-late game, no obs can make it very difficult for the marines (OK only for a couple of minutes tops).
In short, if the aliens aren't able to hod processing, knowing it is a key point in the map, then they deserve to lose. A full team skulk rush should ALWAYS be enough to wipe out an outpost on the condition that it's only newly set up. That's why having someone in processing at all times early game is important..
People seem to forget that you can wait for 30 seconds until every alien is waiting outside, instead of trickling in 1 by one. In the latter method, you will all die and probably not take out anyone. However if you all attack from different entrances at once, even if the marines have built one or two turrets by then, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to a) kill the marines currently there and b) take the phase gate down. After that, it's only a matter of time until you've taken the TF down and hey presto, you've just cost the marines dearly in the early game. Well done, have a cookie.
In short, quit moaning about a bad game you had and realise that it's SO well known, if the other team doesn't make use of processing as a key location, then the game is rightfully yours.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
relocation to processing is now on my list of "stupid things to do" in hera. You get ONE measly res node. I'll put it to you this way. I've won quite a few games against the relocation to processing strat by sneaking hives past the marines. How di I do that? Since the aliens are getting ridiculous res, have them keep attacking processing, trying to take down building so themarineshave to replace them. Meanwhile, the 2 gorges cap all the res nodes, and wait for res. When both are max, drop hives simultaneously at DCD and Vent., plus some otehr structures to distract the seige. The marines won't have enough MONEY to keep pinging the hives (or they might miss one). Keep doing it, and eventually one will make it thru, and then everyone that can, goes FADE! The aliens win it everytime I've done that (but it took like 3 hours each time. Boring, but winnable)
Sorry to hear you had a bad day and then had a bad game to follow. I really must bring up the issue of people using the 'silent' crouched hopping. I do find it annoying myself to watch. From the sounds of it, it was a bad day all around on the server. I was busy watching videos instead of playing, so I don't know how many admins were around on the server. When I finally came on we had some members of a well known NS clan basically ignoring all the server rules and telling the regulars to shut up. I ended up flipping my lid and telling them they were welcome to go play elsewhere.
So I had a bad day too! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hence my presence on the forums atm. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I am taking a break so I can regain my calm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah it wasn't all that bad yesterday. We had a entire team gorge rush into the marine spawn on tanith while they tried to block of the doors with comm chairs and wiped them out with healing spray and babblers. And then on bast we had a really good and long game where it was 4 or 5 HA HMGs attacking feed against a fade a skulk(me) and a gorge. Managed to wipe them out then clean the main base out and Stoney had relocated to refinery. He managed to get another group of HA/HMGs out to attack engine before we managed to kill him off.
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Mar 5 2003, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 5 2003, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh.. Phoenix? That little tidbit had been posted to the forums previously by a dev, at one point. Same with the game's balance-point being at a two-hive state, and that three-hive Alien weapons were game-enders, and not intended to be balanced against maximum Marine tech. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know 3-hive abilties are supposed to end the game. What i've never seen stated by any dev is that the game is balanced so the marines and aliens have to to defend 2 points, and this is the way it <b>should</b> be played. I doubt you'd be able with the number of posts in this place but a link to it would be appreciated so you can prove me wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And when you say the 'game's balance point being at the two-hive state', what precisely do you mean ?
Edit: If it looked like I was jumping down your throat I apolgise Talesin. I didn't mean it to look that way. I've just seen a lot of posts where the poster's arguement is based on the way <b>they</b> think NS should be played.
I hate hera. This is one of the reasons I hate hera (I'm usually Kharaa).
Having said that, I hate it because it's a pain in the posterior more than an evil exploit. Yes, it is a flaw in the map. However, it's such a... blatant flaw. (Well, "blatant" isn't the word I'm looking for but it'll do). It's not the same thing as building outside the base in the marine start, or building outside the cockpit on ns_nancy. It's not an exploit which requires you to duck three times, hit all your weapon keys at the same time and place a mine so that the combination will find some loophole in the code to give you godly powers. I say it's a blatant flaw because to take advantage of it you just drop a siege. You do a normal thing in a normal location to give an abnormal effect, rather than doing an abnormal thing in an abnormal location to give an abnormal effect.
I wouldn't mind so much if hera was supposed to be difficult for Kharaa; if it was intended to be a war for processing. I'd love it if there were more varied maps which encourage different strategies and key tactical locations. If some maps were intended to be an uphill struggle for marines, and some for kharaa, I'd be fine with this. So... I'd like to see either hera "fixed", or "made even worse" and make another map as hard on marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Mar 5 2003, 09:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Mar 5 2003, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know if Merkaba will be altering Hera to remove this "issue." You'd have to ask him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ooooooooh, and the plot thickens...
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Mar 5 2003, 09:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Mar 5 2003, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Re: siege range, all the maps were tested with the current (1.04) range. Shortly before release of 1.0, it was upped, with pretty much nil PT'ing. After release it became apparent this broke bast and hera and was reduced to pre-release range in the current 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is incorrect. Siege range was increased just before 1.0 released, which resulted in the siege issues on Bast - sieging the Engine Room and the resource node in the main airlock from the marine start. In 1.03 or 1.04 (I forget which), siege range was returned to it playtesting range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I read this, and reread this. Aren't you two saying the exact same thing, except for the nil-PT'ing thing?
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Mar 5 2003, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Mar 5 2003, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Re: siege range, all the maps were tested with the current (1.04) range. Shortly before release of 1.0, it was upped, with pretty much nil PT'ing. After release it became apparent this broke bast and hera and was reduced to pre-release range in the current 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is incorrect. Siege range was increased just before 1.0 released, which resulted in the siege issues on Bast - sieging the Engine Room and the resource node in the main airlock from the marine start. In 1.03 or 1.04 (I forget which), siege range was returned to it playtesting range.
I don't know if Merkaba will be altering Hera to remove this "issue." You'd have to ask him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ??
Thats precisely what I said.
Edit: Its Ok coil. Probably my sucky English <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As an Admin our my clans servers, I have neverkicked or banned anyone for building in processing. However if I am playing and Hera comes up, I change the map; or if I join and hera is playing, as soon as the round is over I change the map. IMO processing is a map design flaw. In and of it's self it is not an exploit. Building sieges in processing that can attack Vent and data core is taking advantage of a design flaw and therefore exploiting. It is akin to building outside on nancy or building outside on hera, or any of the otherbuilding outside the map exploits. It is much worse than nothing. I don't think nothing is flawed just overly advantageous to whomever takes cargo.
TBH, I don't think we can go much further with this thread. One mans's exploit is an others legitmate tactic. Unless a Dev rules one way or the other it's kinda pointless.
My biggest concern isn't whether it's an exploit or not, but the fact the problem is causing Hera to come off map cycles, which is a shame because otherwise it's a great map. I hope Merkaba does fix it if only because of this.
So, I guess the "count the res" game only magically applies when the marines relocate to processing? Or else we could apply it to JP rushing. Look at the big number of resources it takes to JP rush! It must not work!
Anyway, you can't exactly build up processing before the relocation force arrives. Also, if you do put O chambers in processing early game, you're putting the aliens at a major disadvantage resource wise, so that's really not a viable strategy. Also, if you've got 3 skulks hanging out there the whole game, it's basically wasted man?power, which would allow the marines to expand much more easily.
Also, the relocating to processing is certainly not an all or nothing strat. I just played a game last night where most of the expeditioners to processing were killed, but we built up at base at home and won the game anyway.
For these reasons, I think that the processing flaw makes hera heavily favor the marines that use it, and is strong enough of an imbalance to call it an exploit. The advantages of holding that point are too ridiculously good for holding that point to be considered a valid "strategy".
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Mar 5 2003, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Mar 5 2003, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO processing is a map design flaw. In and of it's self it is not an exploit. Building sieges in processing that can attack Vent and data core is taking advantage of a design flaw and therefore exploiting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just to clarify something before this gets closed (as yes, it's all been covered at this point and now it will likely descend into flameage):
NS_Bast and NS_Hera are often described as having a design flaw that allows people to siege from unlikely or unfair (yes, unfair) locations. This is NOT correct, and the issue is NOT the mappers fault in anyway - when the maps were designed and tested, all the way up to the final days before release, the Siege Cannon range was much, much shorter. At the final moments, it was increased for other reasons, and slipped through testing in the last couple days.
Setting up siege cannons in these spots is not what I would refer to as exploiting, but it's unsportsmanlike and makes you less of a man. It's the NS equivalent to boxing someone and getting in a few quick low blows while the Ref can't see your hands. You may get away with it, but your win is cheapened and you lose respect from more fair-minded players.
In 1.1 this whole issue will be rectified, so it's really not worth talking about at this point.
Comments
Sorry to hear about the surprise you found on the server. Heh, just one reason besides my inherent lack of skill that I'll never again try to join a clan. Sadly this'll leave me on the pubs for the rest of my NS career but I'm willing to live with it.
Not to say they are all bad or nuthin', but I can't stand the way some of these guys get a sense of superiority stuck in their heads...makin' them all little "gods" and thusly making exploits, cheats, rule breaking, and general bad sportsmanship fair game. Gives the good clans a bad name, and the bad ones...a deserved one.
I'm pretty much vented, got my sweet iced tea goin'...so I'll probably head back into the fray until my schedule catches up with me.
Edit:
Talesin, you're my hero. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
its something the mapper probably didnt realise, but its one small location, aliens will always be able to reach that location before the marines do, so its dead easy to secure, i have only seen them do it once and that was because i didnt know it existed
If the marines get lucky and repel the rushes (which should be rare, think how long it takes to get turrets up sufficiently to ward off aliens who are rushing whole team at a time in the early game with NO RES points), then a couple of mass attacks to take down the observatory will buy you some time. Remember even in the mid-late game, no obs can make it very difficult for the marines (OK only for a couple of minutes tops).
In short, if the aliens aren't able to hod processing, knowing it is a key point in the map, then they deserve to lose. A full team skulk rush should ALWAYS be enough to wipe out an outpost on the condition that it's only newly set up. That's why having someone in processing at all times early game is important..
People seem to forget that you can wait for 30 seconds until every alien is waiting outside, instead of trickling in 1 by one. In the latter method, you will all die and probably not take out anyone. However if you all attack from different entrances at once, even if the marines have built one or two turrets by then, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to a) kill the marines currently there and b) take the phase gate down. After that, it's only a matter of time until you've taken the TF down and hey presto, you've just cost the marines dearly in the early game. Well done, have a cookie.
In short, quit moaning about a bad game you had and realise that it's SO well known, if the other team doesn't make use of processing as a key location, then the game is rightfully yours.
/roo
Roob's bubtastic NS 1.04
163.1.180.217:27016
Stats: <a href='http://163.1.180.217:27017' target='_blank'>http://163.1.180.217:27017</a>
Sorry to hear you had a bad day and then had a bad game to follow. I really must bring up the issue of people using the 'silent' crouched hopping. I do find it annoying myself to watch. From the sounds of it, it was a bad day all around on the server. I was busy watching videos instead of playing, so I don't know how many admins were around on the server. When I finally came on we had some members of a well known NS clan basically ignoring all the server rules and telling the regulars to shut up. I ended up flipping my lid and telling them they were welcome to go play elsewhere.
So I had a bad day too! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hence my presence on the forums atm. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I am taking a break so I can regain my calm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah it wasn't all that bad yesterday. We had a entire team gorge rush into the marine spawn on tanith while they tried to block of the doors with comm chairs and wiped them out with healing spray and babblers. And then on bast we had a really good and long game where it was 4 or 5 HA HMGs attacking feed against a fade a skulk(me) and a gorge. Managed to wipe them out then clean the main base out and Stoney had relocated to refinery. He managed to get another group of HA/HMGs out to attack engine before we managed to kill him off.
I know 3-hive abilties are supposed to end the game. What i've never seen stated by any dev is that the game is balanced so the marines and aliens have to to defend 2 points, and this is the way it <b>should</b> be played. I doubt you'd be able with the number of posts in this place but a link to it would be appreciated so you can prove me wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And when you say the 'game's balance point being at the two-hive state', what precisely do you mean ?
Edit: If it looked like I was jumping down your throat I apolgise Talesin. I didn't mean it to look that way. I've just seen a lot of posts where the poster's arguement is based on the way <b>they</b> think NS should be played.
I hate hera. This is one of the reasons I hate hera (I'm usually Kharaa).
Having said that, I hate it because it's a pain in the posterior more than an evil exploit. Yes, it is a flaw in the map. However, it's such a... blatant flaw. (Well, "blatant" isn't the word I'm looking for but it'll do). It's not the same thing as building outside the base in the marine start, or building outside the cockpit on ns_nancy. It's not an exploit which requires you to duck three times, hit all your weapon keys at the same time and place a mine so that the combination will find some loophole in the code to give you godly powers. I say it's a blatant flaw because to take advantage of it you just drop a siege. You do a normal thing in a normal location to give an abnormal effect, rather than doing an abnormal thing in an abnormal location to give an abnormal effect.
I wouldn't mind so much if hera was supposed to be difficult for Kharaa; if it was intended to be a war for processing. I'd love it if there were more varied maps which encourage different strategies and key tactical locations. If some maps were intended to be an uphill struggle for marines, and some for kharaa, I'd be fine with this. So... I'd like to see either hera "fixed", or "made even worse" and make another map as hard on marines.
Ooooooooh, and the plot thickens...
This is incorrect. Siege range was increased just before 1.0 released, which resulted in the siege issues on Bast - sieging the Engine Room and the resource node in the main airlock from the marine start. In 1.03 or 1.04 (I forget which), siege range was returned to it playtesting range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read this, and reread this. Aren't you two saying the exact same thing, except for the nil-PT'ing thing?
This is incorrect. Siege range was increased just before 1.0 released, which resulted in the siege issues on Bast - sieging the Engine Room and the resource node in the main airlock from the marine start. In 1.03 or 1.04 (I forget which), siege range was returned to it playtesting range.
I don't know if Merkaba will be altering Hera to remove this "issue." You'd have to ask him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
??
Thats precisely what I said.
Edit: Its Ok coil. Probably my sucky English <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
relocating to proc in the very beginning...
30 for a chiar
22 for an ip
25 for the TF
25 for upgrading
25 for each siege
+
Each res spent on spawning a troop to go die again
X
The time it takes to gather and build all these things
/
Every attempt to stop the marines
=
At least 150 res and at least 6.5 minuts game time
=
Result in which a hive MAY be destryoed if the aliens don't start with archiving.
(naote: my bad on miscalculations.... and im factoring in that the marines will die A LOT)
note the second: 6.5 seconds is nearly twice as fast as it takes to get the 2nd hive up by even the most efficient build orders.
/:
My biggest concern isn't whether it's an exploit or not, but the fact the problem is causing Hera to come off map cycles, which is a shame because otherwise it's a great map. I hope Merkaba does fix it if only because of this.
As far as I know spwaning does cost 1 res, but that may just be the servers i play on (how or why I have no idea)
expect more "count the res" games
Anyway, you can't exactly build up processing before the relocation force arrives. Also, if you do put O chambers in processing early game, you're putting the aliens at a major disadvantage resource wise, so that's really not a viable strategy. Also, if you've got 3 skulks hanging out there the whole game, it's basically wasted man?power, which would allow the marines to expand much more easily.
Also, the relocating to processing is certainly not an all or nothing strat. I just played a game last night where most of the expeditioners to processing were killed, but we built up at base at home and won the game anyway.
For these reasons, I think that the processing flaw makes hera heavily favor the marines that use it, and is strong enough of an imbalance to call it an exploit. The advantages of holding that point are too ridiculously good for holding that point to be considered a valid "strategy".
Just to clarify something before this gets closed (as yes, it's all been covered at this point and now it will likely descend into flameage):
NS_Bast and NS_Hera are often described as having a design flaw that allows people to siege from unlikely or unfair (yes, unfair) locations. This is NOT correct, and the issue is NOT the mappers fault in anyway - when the maps were designed and tested, all the way up to the final days before release, the Siege Cannon range was much, much shorter. At the final moments, it was increased for other reasons, and slipped through testing in the last couple days.
Setting up siege cannons in these spots is not what I would refer to as exploiting, but it's unsportsmanlike and makes you less of a man. It's the NS equivalent to boxing someone and getting in a few quick low blows while the Ref can't see your hands. You may get away with it, but your win is cheapened and you lose respect from more fair-minded players.
In 1.1 this whole issue will be rectified, so it's really not worth talking about at this point.