Heavy Armor, Is It Useless?

roachems · April 2003

I was reading the forums the other day, and I noticed the post about jetpacks, and how commanders hand them out to their marines, and everybody goes rambo'ing and bouncing off the walls. So today I decided to not hand out jetpacks, instead Heavy Armor.

Typical game, teams were evenly matched. They did a good job getting me resources like I asked, so in return I gave them full upgrades, HA, hmg, welders for everybody. I passed out about 3 or 4 HA on a 8 player team. Gave them a phase gate and told them to go kill the hive. This was ns_eclipse by the way.

The aliens had taken mainteance, and CC. CC was the least defended hive, so thats the one I chose them to attack.

They all died. I don't know how really, I gave them medpacks, ammo, the works! We prevented them from taking eclipse for about 20 minutes, and the just couldn't push through to CC. Especially against fades. I know HA was made for marines to take on a fade, but my team couldn't pull it through.

Of course I blamed for my team's loss, they even tried to eject me.
HA's reputation didn't follow through for it in this game.

Is HA worthless?
Anyone else have this experiance?
Someone prove me wrong!

- roachems[AR]

ZERG · April 2003

HA useless? It's practically invincible. The only thing that can effectively stop HA is Oni or a good battle gorge using his webs.

Oh, and don't even DARE say "well they would have welders blah blah blah." If you form the web on top of the marines, the welder does nothing.

o = shoot here
X = marine
- = web to be formed

o----x----o

Still... the gorge has a pretty good chance of dying to nade spam before he even gets close.

Calantus · April 2003

When a marine hits zero armor, it's as if they never had armor to begin with. That's the same for a HA marine. Any skulk can take down a full-health HA marine in two bites if they have 0 armor. I'm guessing your guys didn't weld their armor up.

nny · April 2003

What makes an HA crew last is full HA and welders for the crew - you've seen the Welding Squires, the light armor marines running with welders behind the guys with the armor and the guns, and that doesn't really cut it. you've got to have a dedicated HA crew that will tell one another when they're low, pick a point man and back him up.

if you can only equip three or four guys out of 8, don't expect the ones without HA to be too responsible for the guys with HA. let them run ahead, not too far, but attract the fire for the HMGs and scout.

Paq · April 2003

I experienced something like that few days ago. I was commanding ns_hera in 16 players server.

Aliens had a n00b gorge, who took too much time for building the second hive, so we were fighting against 1 hive aliens pretty long. We took hera, then holoroom and that one res node behind the base and we had all of them about 20 minutes.

So i just kept upgrading stuff until we had level 3 weapons and armors. I gave few jp/hmg and ordered them to attack in data core (half of them didn't even know where data core is, so that strategy was hopeless). I had only one marine who did exatcly is i told him to do and the others were just ramboing. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Ok, we secured archive and then aliens finished their second hive. I saved about 400 rp and ordered everyone in base. They did it and then i equipped 5 of them with HA/hmg/welder and two guys with HA/GL/welder. They left together from base towards the vent hive trought that dark hallway next to base.
There was 5 fades and 2 lerks against them in the end of that hallway. I tryed to order them in that door which is on the left and then to prosessing. That one loyalty marine did it and others just stayed there to shoot those fades. The whole HA team got killed except that one marine who went in prosessing.

He builded phase in there and i equipped the whole team with HA/hmg/welders again and ordered them to go trough phase.....guess what......they rushed in that hallway again and i was shouting: "GO TROUGHT THE PHASE", but then it was too late. Fades killed that marine in prosessing and then the phase gate.

I was really angry with my team and then i asked from the loyalty marine that can he come next to com chair up there. He did, i placed HA/hmg/welder there, i jumped out from the com chair and picked them up.
We phased together in archive while the others were......well, i have no idea wth they were doing and i didn't even care <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Anyway we walked from archive to data core trought that weldable vent which is next to data core hive. There was only two OC's, we shoot them down and then killed the hive. After the hive was down i heard when someone said that we lost base....

I was actually surprised how easy killing that hive was, but when no-one listened to me, we didn't have a change with full upgraded HA team. If i just would have 3-4 loyalty marines, we would have pwned those fades easily.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

That_Annoying_Kid · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> one more thing TEAMWORK IS KEY </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
th@ was said for a reason

Thanatos · April 2003

It is NOT useless.

You want to hear a really wild story. The map is bast. 16 player server. I join late into a game and the rines are really getting their behinds kicked. No suprise I end up Marine. Situation. We have Atmo and our spawn. We seem to battle back and forth over MAJ for some reason. When I joined we had just taken Feedwater but we lost it to a bunch of fades a few minutes later.

I was sure we were screwed. We tried to seige them out of feedwater a couple of times but no luck. The fades just ripped us apart each time we tried. After a while the commander seems to loose intrest in feedwater and simply reinforce atmo with more turrets. He Drops a GL and tells me and one other marine to hold atmo for as long as we can. We juggle the GL between respawns and manages to keep the Onos and fades at bay. Meanwhile our original spawn is falling and we are down to only atmo and the tunnel to spawn. And here is where it turns.

The Comm drops a load of HA/HMGS/Welders. He tells us that if anybody as much as think about dying with this gear on he will seek him out IRL and pummel him to death with his keyboard. Since I haven´t received word of anything else I stay in atmo and protect it. A bunch of HAs go through the newly reactivated PG ( I later found out that a sneaky JP equipped marine had managed to build a PG in the vents at engine.
Engine goes down. Next is feedwater. We slaughter atleast one Onos on the way there and feedwater goes down with the help of some sieges. 4 Of us move slowly towards ref from feed and we take out some more Onos on the way(and fades in great numbers) The other HAs reclaim our old base and keep tabs on atmo and they also have to take out Engine again.

In short we won.
But my point is. Once we got the HAs we only had 2 deaths on the marine team for the remainder of the game. And it took us about 40 minutes to take out all the hives.
And I was not one of the guys that got killed. One was the JP guy and the other was a HA that got a bit to brave when taking ref and got stuck in webs.

That was a good game. And hats off to the alien team who didn´t F4.
And the aliens weren´t bad players either. Sure the lacked some coordination and should perhaps have tried to take out one place at a time and not divide their efforts so much, but thats their misstake.

Thanatos.

leek · April 2003

HA marines have a tendancy when in a group to get very confident and advance to quickly. they should move slower and weld each other more. but if u have no team players in the group dont expect much progress from them.

Kaniran · April 2003

All I can say is, heavy armor is invincible if used correctly. 4 guys, welders, 3 with HMG 1 with 'nades, constant welding and anything short of an onos will be gooified. Nothing but an organized team of fades and lerks with umbra stand a chance. Armor is the teamwork tool, jet pack is the rambo tool.

Armor vs hive 2 aliens it the ultimate showdown. Use it more often. The only possible drawback is that the team with the better TEAMWORK wins!!

Paq · April 2003

HA is useless without a good teamwork, but if teamwork is good, HA is almost unstoppable.
Jp is good against one hive aliens, but it becomes pretty useless, when aliens start to web hives, lerks got umbra and of course, fade comes in the picture.

Well at least i haven't seen any succesfull JP rush when hives have been webbed, but i have seen few really good HA rush which slaughter every alien, who gets in their way. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

mCnEIL_uK · April 2003

The guys who had the HA we're prob n00bs, and if you have HA you should have HMG as well because that shall kick alien arse. Just give the Marines HA and HMGs and the games over or just make sure you have 2 hives that are heavy guarded.

sej · April 2003

Id prefer taking on fades with a jp hmg rather than a HA hmg..

If youre good with the jetpack, jetpack is king.

HA gets in problems when it runs into a full alien team with gorges webbing, confusion is the death of HA. They dont know whether to weld the webs around them or to shoot the fades/ lerks biting them.

With good teamwork HA is good though.

Typhon · April 2003

HA only works in teams of atleast 3-4, 2 will cut it if both players really know what they are doing.

HA also only works when non-noobs use it. Most people hear that *clunk* sound and think 'I'm robocop! I'm invincible!' and start plodding off to their doom. For noobs its ESSENTIAL that there be one designated welder that stays behind everyone with his welder going constantly, and that the other know to fall back to him when they get even down to 1/2 armor.

Thirdly, there is the fundamental problem of the balance of the two races. Aliens are powerful because of their speed. Wearing HA only accentuates that advantage. You cant dodge acid rockets, you cant chase fades, you cant even dodge skulks effectively. HA is a slowly moving wall of destruction. It is incredibly powerful to confront head on, but you have ALOT of time to confront it before it reaches any critical areas (unless someone snuck a phase ofcourse).

Ben128 · April 2003

They are both equally good, but for totally different tactics and situations. The biggest problem with jetpacks and people rarelly form "jump squads", and as such, jps become more of a rambo tool to take out a hive. In a good jper's are almost as strong as HA just because they get hit much less, and their moblity is good enough to harass. Honestly, I always try to get both and use them as each of their roles require. I use the JPer's as scouts and anti web guys(give up welders to clear a path for HA's). Or I use the jper's to dash in and weld my HA's and then dash out. They can also cover the highground, which is very powerful in most maps. The HA's are my meat wall, and nearly unstoppable under the right conditions.

I think that people are just begining to see how deep NS really is with its tactics. Its all about the current situation.

taboofires · April 2003

To sum it up:
HA is extremly powerful. Jetpacks are extremely powerful. Jetpacks are cheaper. Commanders pinch pennies whenever jp will do the job <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Darkhound · April 2003

I've had entire squads of HA/HMG guys with welders and full weapon and armor upgrades taken out by fades. More than once. In fact, I would say it happens more often than not. *I'M* invincible in HA, most people are not, because they don't stick together, don't use their welders, and charge into walls of lame while shooting wildly because they think nothing can kill them(ie, they are stupid). People are just as stupid with JPs as they are with HA, but their stupidity costs you less.

A good team of HA guys is unstoppable wall of death. Just walk to a hive, set up siege cannons, and blow it away. You usually don't want to walk in and shoot it because they'll have the place OT'd to hell and back by the time you have HA, and respawning skulks can sneak up on people as they're blasting the hive. Make them come to you, that's where the HA is strongest.

CutterJoe · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Apr 15 2003, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> HA useless? It's practically invincible. The only thing that can effectively stop HA is Oni or a good battle gorge using his webs.

Oh, and don't even DARE say "well they would have welders blah blah blah." If you form the web on top of the marines, the welder does nothing.

o = shoot here
X = marine
- = web to be formed

o----x----o

Still... the gorge has a pretty good chance of dying to nade spam before he even gets close.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I dont know about invincible but HA is pretty good. Im going along with everyone else, the HA just didnt get welded so there was no defense for them. Next time tell some LA's to follow behind (not too close) with welders to keep their armor up.

Xzilen · April 2003

I think its because not enough Grenade Launchers are passed out. I think even one would do fine, but if all you have is hmg's its not enough, I think the punch of the Grenade launcher is required, as well as some armor upgrade, that extra 60 or 90 armor or whatever really makes a difference as long as the marines weld each other.

Edit:

Also, I do believe you should have two people designated as welder men until other people run dry on their clip, then switch roles <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Catpoker · April 2003

it is becuase people are just not used to HA

they have had about 3 months of jetpacks and have forgotten what it takes to be in a HA

its Big Gun syndrome, they think they are invinsable and run off alone, only to get killed by a gorge with web and a skulk backup

in a jetpack, you have the chance to escape, in HA you do not, you need someone covering you while you reload and weld, it takes 3 GOOD team members of hmg/gl with ha to cover/weld/reload each other, and takes a great amount of teamwork

jp requires your jump key to cover yourself

also, in ha, you depend on your team to survive, you need someone else to weld you, unfourtunally, pub servers are full of morons that (even after you scream and type in caps that you can weld HA and it fixes them, they take your welder and run off and die in some remote location

jp, you yourself are responsable for yourself, and that bleeds out the possablity of morons

Asal_The_Unforgiving · April 2003

honestly, I'd rather be a welder-squire than a JP marine, because I fight a whole lot better with both feet planted firmly on the ground, and I then can have a very specific objective, sometimes even going down to *points* "KEEP THAT GUY ALIVE" Such things are no problem for me, and I tend to work better. Plus, if my guy gets webbed, I have absolutely no problem running in front of him to take hits or fend off skulks. He is MY guy, and I'm gonna stick lifeblood between him and death, if need be. It gets much more interesting that way. I don't have to do that often, though, because the guy is often better off without me way in front, so I just lay back and weld him up, and cheer him on. Sometimes I can point out things to notice (gorges, fades, webs) but normally they pay enough attention that I don't have to. I say for every HA marine you got, give him a designated bodyguard. Definately promotes teamwork, and if they work well together, or like each other, they tend to get better and stick together. Anyhow, just my experience. No turret ever was better than a pair of marines who worked together to stay alive, and marines cost less! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>
If I'm given HA, I really don't like to leave base without a squire or buddy with me, because the stuff slows you down, and if you get in trouble, you have to get out with what you have there.

But another idea for you comms out there, HA/JP mix, HA keep each other alive and kill what's on the ground, while JPs go right for the hive. If you got cash, it's an idea. Somebody try it out and tell me how it works?

Lord_Of_The_Pings · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asal The Unforgiving @ Apr 15 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> honestly, I'd rather be a welder-squire than a JP marine, because I fight a whole lot better with both feet planted firmly on the ground, and I then can have a very specific objective, sometimes even going down to *points* "KEEP THAT GUY ALIVE" Such things are no problem for me, and I tend to work better. Plus, if my guy gets webbed, I have absolutely no problem running in front of him to take hits or fend off skulks. He is MY guy, and I'm gonna stick lifeblood between him and death, if need be. It gets much more interesting that way. I don't have to do that often, though, because the guy is often better off without me way in front, so I just lay back and weld him up, and cheer him on. Sometimes I can point out things to notice (gorges, fades, webs) but normally they pay enough attention that I don't have to. I say for every HA marine you got, give him a designated bodyguard. Definately promotes teamwork, and if they work well together, or like each other, they tend to get better and stick together. Anyhow, just my experience. No turret ever was better than a pair of marines who worked together to stay alive, and marines cost less! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>
If I'm given HA, I really don't like to leave base without a squire or buddy with me, because the stuff slows you down, and if you get in trouble, you have to get out with what you have there.

But another idea for you comms out there, HA/JP mix, HA keep each other alive and kill what's on the ground, while JPs go right for the hive. If you got cash, it's an idea. Somebody try it out and tell me how it works?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
same goes for me, I am selfless when it comes to my comrades and the men/women under my command although jp is probably the best weapon for a welder man as he can get out of the way of skulks and can be SNEAKY i.e. building sieges in nasty spots <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Precious · April 2003

HA is just like JP if you don't know how to use them they are useless. As a comm my prob with JP's is that very few people know the map. Even with a way point everyone goes a different way. Maybe with HA the group will go slower and u as the comm can have better control over them. If the HA's stop moving forward because they are fearfull, just drop hp a little ways infront of them. They will get the picture.

Aioros · April 2003

When alien have a second have and a good gorge they stop u easy.
umbra, web and some fades ...
1 gl stop a lerk and the gorge. the other marins with hmgs kill the fades.

The mosst hives was such heavy that you can't attcke him with 4 or 5 heavy armor marins ...
I think the only good way to kill the aliens was to make a siege <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> and save this with heavy armor marins.
Good aliens stop 4 marins with heavy armor to easy ...

I think heavy armor is only to stop aliens ... and hold hives. you said that. They hold eclipse a long time fighting with fades .... .

Cereal_KillR · April 2003

ha isn't quite the same as jetpack (obviously) Jetpack comes first, and ha comes later on. I think HA achieves where jetpack fails (sheer strength) whearas JP achieves where HA fails (speed/maniability/flexibility)

Thank god you can't have both <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

sej · April 2003

I find i kill more fades with jp hmgand dies less with jp hmg than when i have HA HMG -

And take into account jetpacks cost half the res to research, half the time to research, and only cost 9 res whilst HA costs 50.

Thats why jetpacks normally are a better option.

roachems · April 2003

I think what it comes down to no matter what is team work.

thats just my opinion

- roachems[AR]

Kazyras · April 2003

I view HA as "plan B." Aliens should theoretically never get strong (or entrenched) enough to warrant getting it, but it is nevertheless a contingency you must be ready to deal with.

Kazyras · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sej @ Apr 15 2003, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And take into account jetpacks cost half the res to research, half the time to research, and only cost 9 res whilst HA costs 50.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The *research* cost for HA is 50 resources. The cost for a piece of HA is 25.

gunner · April 2003

as long as everybody keeps each other happy and welded in nice cluster group of HA, and the commander drops mepacks frequently,
a team of HA's with heavy guns can parade through the map.

just a little anecdote, while in spectatator mode, in ns_tanith i saw an onos charge an HA with HMG through one of those narrowdoorways. the HA was in teh entrance, so the onos could not move around unless he killed the HA.

the two deadlocked for about 10 seconds, the HMG kept firing, the onos kept trying to charge. finally, the onos let out a groan and fell to its death.

"Onos: WHAT?<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>??"

Computer_Addict · April 2003

HA is the only strat that i use now. if i have 8 HA with HMG and welder, pass out 2 nades with HA the 2 nades weld the HMGers while they are attacking the aliens, and the HMG weld when attacking structs, i've only lost 2 rounds since i started "HA Rushing" in almost all maps if you just run out get res and upgrade, and don't worry about defending the rts you can get the required res for lvl 2/2 at least sometime 3/3 if you get some double res nodes.

I Started using this strat when i loaded out my team at least 4-5 times each with JP HMG, and said go kill hives. well 5 loadouts times 9 players is a lot of res, and they die soo quick. If my team is so bad that i can't get the res for HA, i reluctantly research JPs and hand them out to a select few.... basically my clan members because they are the only ones talented enough to one MAKE IT to a hive, 2 attack it without dieing, and 3 bbe able to land and get the MED / AMMO Spam that i drop in the hives. i've seen more marines die while falling to the floor to get the SPAM of meds than i wish to think about.

Conclusion: HA Rush pwns All, and if they manage to get 2 hives, let the nades take out the webs. this start causes the team to hell at you a LOT. with 400 res in the back every other teamsay is "USE SOME RES COMM!!?!?!@?@" but when you spam the HA's down it all works out.

ZERG · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Apr 15 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I view HA as "plan B." Aliens should theoretically never get strong (or entrenched) enough to warrant getting it, but it is nevertheless a contingency you must be ready to deal with.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The best way to maximize your ability to get HA is to still use a few RELIABLE JP/HMG marines to fly around and kill alien RTs and cap some yourself. Killing their RTs REALLY hinder the amount of possible fades. Also, any lone Fade can be killed easily by the JP/HMG guy(s). This is how you "entrench" the aliens enough... either that or hold res heavy areas like atmos/feed or cargo so you can get it out faster, but doing the latter is much more beneficial. Heck! Do both.

So you have your "main force" consisting of HA marines for attacking and pushing onto alien positions/hives and you have your "mobile force" consisting of JPers to squash alien expansion and keep it to a minimum, cap resources, and maintain all positions.

You can bet doing something like this requires a lot of teamwork.

Heavy Armor, Is It Useless?

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