<div class="IPBDescription">Compared to other ways</div> What are your views on Government schooling compared to other forms? I will post on this topic later.
My wife and I are home schooling our kids, not because we're scared the gubmint is gunna brainwash them, it just seems a much better way of learning. I recognise that it was the way I tried to learn as a kid (and even now). I grab a subject, it interests me completely, I get my fill, then move on to something else. I found structured lessons, and having to switch subjects every lesson very restrictive. Its a big undertaking, but great fun. I get to pass on the stuff I've learned, and explore new stuff too.
Living in a country where homeschooling is not an option, I've pretty much no idea how it works. How far can you homeschool your kids in the US? How do they get graduations? How do you educate yourself far enough to educate someone else?
i went to a catholic school in the uk : my education was great <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I actually like federal schooling, not just because I'm a product of the American public school system (don't snicker, there are some pretty freaking good schools out there, along with a vast number of really crappy ones). The standardization of teaching and having set curricula is a good thing to me, since it ensures that if someone isn't doing as well in a class, it's not the teacher's fault (most of the time). I tend to be against home-schooling unless the person doing the teaching is certified and trained to be a teacher. And, well, private schools are too expensive :\. On the other hand, private universities are all good <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
public schooling is more and more targeted for the underachiever
I will deffinately do everything I can to either select a school that will challenge my future children and constantly engage the administration in helping them live to their fullest potential.... OR I will have to look into private schools.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually like federal schooling<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Federal? There are federal schools? Unless you are talking about like a school for the blind or the Naval academy they don't exist They get some federal funding but the federal goverment still dosent run them.
I think the problem with American schools is they don't know when to say "this kid is useless teach him how to use a welder." I mean if you are 15 and still in 6th grade you have to be wondering why you are wasting your time. Cut the kid loose and spend some money on kids that will actually do something. Or maybe pay for the kid to learn like plumbing or something.
Nem: The government publishes certain standards of education. You can get certified as 'graduating' high school by either going through public or private school, or being homeschooled and taking the GED. Score high enough, you 'graduated' high school. It has its advantages and disadvatages (smarter kids vs social skills). It works for some, not for others.
I dislike the idea of government run schools, though the government should make education mandatory. I say, let a network of private, for profit high schools develop. Government give you a check for however much your school costs. The current system is both discriminatory (Forcing poor kids to go to poor schoools) as well as ineffective (sprawling suburban schools with abusive teacher unions, with no one learning.)
As far as homeschooling goes, I am 100% against it. Not because they may not be doing as much intellectual work as in a regular school, but because the social element is not there. Every person I've ever met whom has been home-schooled has been socially inept, even by our lonely computer geek standards. Most of it is simply not knowing how to act in public with other people around them. Humans are social beings, even we forum posters, and an understanding of social environments is just as essential as academics to succeed in the world. All the homeschool kids are just plain creepy...
As far as government schooling goes, I think we can all agree that it needs to be in better shape. Especially here in Oklahoma, as our state is rated like 47th in the nation. Terrible terrible schools. But as bad as they are, they need to remain, and they need to remain free. When parents are uneducated or just plain cheap, they may not see the value of sending their children to school and especially won't be wanting to pay for it. And if the children grow up uneducated, they become uneducated parents. And thus this piece of crap state stays in pretty much the same economic condition its been in since the oil boom ended...
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Apr 18 2003, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Apr 18 2003, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Living in a country where homeschooling is not an option, I've pretty much no idea how it works. How far can you homeschool your kids in the US? How do they get graduations? How do you educate yourself far enough to educate someone else? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically, instead of the kids going to school, their parent(s) or some other person (such as a private hired teacher), who doesn't necessarily need any certification whatsoever, teaches the child. There are "kits" parents can buy w/ textbooks, homework assignments, and tests. Kid stays at home all day, with X times set aside for schooling and whatnot. No social interactions with other kids their age, no leaving the house, just staying completely attatched to Mommy and/or Daddy.
I was educated in a regular government school, completely traditional, and I did learn a helluva lot, but they <i>do</i> hit that point where you learn no more because you are waiting for the rest of your class to catch up..?
The way schools are structured means you almost have to hit that point where the teachers are so busy catering to the needs of all their pupils that individuals simply can't get the attention / personalised tuition that would enable them to progress..
Edit: That sounds bad / arrogant , but I mean in very specific areas y'know? I got an unconditional acceptance to one of the best art schools in the country at 17, this is not common, I think a lot of that was down to what I learned at home, in conjunction with my "normal" schooling
/opinion based on being an old guy who has been right through the standard UK education system.....I'm really not sure about this one....while I think home schooling would have worked for me, I can't comment for everyone else y'know?
He could well be onto something..
Edited to (hopefully) make more sense than my previous beer-fuelled rant. Sorry.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
I'm currently in a government funded school, and it's one of the best around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
my qaint (sp?) little town is very very well educated and has excellent schools, so I'm not tripping
Heh I wondered how long it would be before "socialisation" cropped up. It aint an issue DOOManiac, theres enough of a network of homeschooling locally that they've made <i>more</i> friends. It seem silly to be forced to "socialise" with the same 20 people for a decade, no? If the homeschooled children you met were socially inept, its probably because a) it wasn't a priority for them, or b) they were SO far advanced from poor old you...... j/k <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In terms of practicality Nem, we can set our own syllabus, and enter the kids as independent candidates for exams, so its not like they'll miss out on qualifications. Jen and I have had very different learning, she's very maths-y, and I'm more arts and languages, so we can take a fair share of the teaching. If there's a question we can't answer, we can learn together, how cool is that? Further, the homescholing network is so well stocked, theres an "expert" in practically every subject, along with someone that understands the method of teaching.
State schools are really only a recent invention, and for some parents, its sad to say, little more than unpaid babysitters...
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
from what I've seen homeschooling in the united states leads to the children partaking in the programs leading to a sheltered socially secluded life, one of the things high school teachers most kids is how to interact with peers in a real time, hell, Dating is one big undertaking that I wouldn't do until I got to high school, had I been homeschool I would probaly have turned and ran @ the thought of a beutifull young lass...
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin--[tbZ]BeAst+Apr 19 2003, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([tbZ]BeAst @ Apr 19 2003, 03:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Further, the homescholing network is so well stocked, theres an "expert" in practically every subject, along with someone that understands the method of teaching.
State schools are really only a recent invention, and for some parents, its sad to say, little more than unpaid babysitters... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> These are 2 very important points. First, a teaching degree doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about a subject. A teaching degree means that you've been taught how to teach. The amount of "subject specific" classes varies slightly depending on which grades level and general subject one will be teaching. This leads to the second point: Not all of the people who graduate with a teaching degree can teach. Ever known someone who got passing grades in a class but couldn't really do much of the work? These people exist in the teaching world as well.
And don't even get me started on the Liberal Indoctrination that teachers in the U.S. go through to get their degrees.
I salute anyone willing to homeschool their kids. Not only do they have to provide for them, they're taking the time to help them learn. Not easy.
Well, for starters here in Finland we have mandatory schooling to some point. I haven't really gotten in to this but I think no one can teach their children themselves. Either they hire a private teacher(I guess that happens like once in a millenium) or then you send them to public school. I think we don't even have private schools here, and that is imo just good, this way rich people cant buy their kids any better education than the poor people. After the kid has been in school for 9years(9th grade is the last one, usually 15 years old then) he can apply to different upper secondary schools where they take you depending on how well you did in 7th, 8th and 9th grade. Here you become undergraduate and you can go to university or whatever, though you don't have an education for a profession yet. If you want to get a job as fast as possible after the basic education(1st-9th grades)then you can apply in to places where you learn your profession, which are usually 'working class' professions. So you can either get a job(but probably not very glamorous one) when your 18 or then you can be undergraduate but you still have to train yourself a profession in university or where ever you want and where ever you can get in to with your papers. One of the great things is, that government supports you financially if you go to university, so that your parents don't have to be super rich and you don't have to get any scholarships to get in to university. Being plain good is enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--Salty+Apr 18 2003, 09:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salty @ Apr 18 2003, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually like federal schooling<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Federal? There are federal schools? Unless you are talking about like a school for the blind or the Naval academy they don't exist They get some federal funding but the federal goverment still dosent run them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are people from other countries on this forum you know. I meant federal (government-funded) schooling in general, not just in the U.S.
I'm very close to a family that home schools their kids, and they are fine. Doom is generalizing. These kids parents developed a network of family and friends that homeschooled, and they all have had social skills, friends, and good personal development. Homeschooling has its pluses and minuses, and you can't just say it 'doesn't work'
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Apr 19 2003, 10:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Apr 19 2003, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm very close to a family that home schools their kids, and they are fine. Doom is generalizing. These kids parents developed a network of family and friends that homeschooled, and they all have had social skills, friends, and good personal development. Homeschooling has its pluses and minuses, and you can't just say it 'doesn't work' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alot of times it doesn't work though...I used to know a family that home-schooled their single child, lived miles away from the nearest kid, and he was really messed up. frankly I would be supportive of homeschooling if there were some means of "quality control"...but there really isn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wheeee+Apr 19 2003, 10:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Apr 19 2003, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Salty+Apr 18 2003, 09:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salty @ Apr 18 2003, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually like federal schooling<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Federal? There are federal schools? Unless you are talking about like a school for the blind or the Naval academy they don't exist They get some federal funding but the federal goverment still dosent run them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are people from other countries on this forum you know. I meant federal (government-funded) schooling in general, not just in the U.S. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well denver colorado is in the united states I thought <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if they are from another country it most likely they are in a unitary country and they just have a national goverment and so there still is no federal goverment. Its the national goverment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alot of times it doesn't work though...I used to know a family that home-schooled their single child, lived miles away from the nearest kid, and he was really messed up. frankly I would be supportive of homeschooling if there were some means of "quality control"...but there really isn't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if he lives miles away from the nearest kid a public school isint gonna help that. I would say realying on public schools to just educate your kid without any work in yourself is not a good idea. Your school does not face the consiquences if your kid can't read. My mom taught my cousin's kids to read when their mom worked. Now the both are exseptional students.
<!--QuoteBegin--Salty+Apr 19 2003, 12:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salty @ Apr 19 2003, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well if he lives miles away from the nearest kid a public school isint gonna help that. I would say realying on public schools to just educate your kid without any work in yourself is not a good idea. Your school does not face the consiquences if your kid can't read. My mom taught my cousin's kids to read when their mom worked. Now the both are exseptional students. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, some public schools' funding derives from the performance (and attendance) of their students. And in my opinion a public school in a small town is better than being alone for the first 18 years of your life ('cept if you have relatives living with you, though that's another matter).
<!--QuoteBegin--[tbZ]BeAst+Apr 19 2003, 02:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([tbZ]BeAst @ Apr 19 2003, 02:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Heh I wondered how long it would be before "socialisation" cropped up. It aint an issue DOOManiac, theres enough of a network of homeschooling locally that they've made <i>more</i> friends. It seem silly to be forced to "socialise" with the same 20 people for a decade, no? If the homeschooled children you met were socially inept, its probably because a) it wasn't a priority for them, or b) they were SO far advanced from poor old you...... j/k :p <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Example of homeschooled ineptitude:
Driver's Ed, 1995. Homeschooled guy walks into a school classroom for the first time, with people his age for the first time. Homeschooled guy sees a girl for first time. First words out of homeschooled guy's mouth, outloud, in front of the whole classroom, are "wow, boobies!!!"
Cool story, but the same logic could likely be applied to all single sex schooling environments, of which there are many in the UK.
By that I mean, a kid in an "All boys", "All girls", "All catholic girls" , "All Whatever" school is likely to respond in a similar way..
My point still stands, "conventional" schooling has produced most of the idiots and f*ckwits currently active in our society, and I am sure you will agree, they are numerous...
Unless you can <i>prove</i> home school kids turn out messed up, you are making a gross generalisation.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Apr 19 2003, 03:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Apr 19 2003, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nem: The government publishes certain standards of education. You can get certified as 'graduating' high school by either going through public or private school, or being homeschooled and taking the GED. Score high enough, you 'graduated' high school. It has its advantages and disadvatages (smarter kids vs social skills). It works for some, not for others.
I dislike the idea of government run schools, though the government should make education mandatory. I say, let a network of private, for profit high schools develop. Government give you a check for however much your school costs. The current system is both discriminatory (Forcing poor kids to go to poor schoools) as well as ineffective (sprawling suburban schools with abusive teacher unions, with no one learning.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats how the english system works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
also im not sure if it was just my school : or if its done in all others around england, but we were divded into "sets". ie i was "set 1" for maths : we RARLEY had to wait for someone to catch up, and because we were all "clever", per say, we rarley had any tossers who would sit there disrupting classes thorwing things......that happened next door <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have to agree with Doom on this one, and yes I also believe single sex schooling enviroments have their disadvantages.
I think that government schooling is appropriate, because the standard of education is more or less universal, as are the social enviroments and every other aspect. This does not mean I disagree with home schooling across the board, personally I couldn't learn in the home enviroment, I would just get distracted. I agree that for some people home schooling is much better than government schooling. I would excpect (although I'm not saying anyone falling under these catergories should be homescholled, or shouldn't be homeschoolled) that the exceptionall gift, should be home-schooled as they can be challengd more. Anyone who finds it difficult to learn in a school enviroment (whether they can't concentrate in class or have a social disorder (although I know people with social disorders and by going to a government school their social skills have grown).
Eitherway I think all homeschoolled children should have regular government tests to make sure they are reciving the same quality of education that is provided by the governments education system.
These systems change all the time though, as do the standards required to achieve certification in any of these systems...
I'm in Scotland myself, but I know for a fact that our current basic system ( Standard Grades) is nowhere near equal to the system it replaced..( O-Grades) .
It's easier.
I went through high school in the period these changed over, therefore I <i>have</i> done both exams, to me there is no doubt the newer standards were "dumbed down", almost exactly at the time "performance related" pay and bonuses were introduced for teaching staff and school budgets....
I'm with Salty on this one. The main thing I see wrong with public school (at least in America) is that its not vocational or, more in general, practical enough. My underfunded and disintegrating High School was basically run on the premise that everybody wants to go to college, when probably only 10% of the student body would actually manage to get into a 4 year program.
After I graduated, the true symbol of this lack of functional education hit me when I had to do taxes for the first time. Then I thought about personal financial management, dealing with the DMV, all of these things people have to deal with, and get confused about, all the time, and for some reason public educational seems to think its not their responsability to teach kids about it?
I was fortunate enough that because of the underfunded aspect, and one young new teacher wanting to setup a networked computer lab (in 1994 with no money), I was able to turn the last 1.5 years of my public education into a mostly self taught vocational environment. Besides all the technical skills though, the important experience was what it was like to work on a project with a diverse group of people, that had a very limited budget, and plan and coordinate actually creating and accomplishing something. But only myself and about 4 other students were able to benefit from this. (BTW: after I graduated, I came back about 9 months later and got an OK job there, paid for partially by charging students during lunch and after school to play doom/descent, hows that for precolumbine mentality)
Probably the only other group of people in my high school that had a positive experience along these lines were the autoshop crowd. If you weren't a verified college bound academic, or at least having a good time in sports/band/theatre, you were probably an incredibly depressed and resentful prisoner. The school had an abandoned metal shop, electronics lab, and radio station (all of which we used to store/repair computers, and setup network infrastructure), but all those things were the first to go when funding started to dry up. Because only one department a year could buy a single set of new books, there was a class (this is public school...) where we had to get our parents to cough up $120 for two books, and since some parents wouldn't do this, we had to push desks together and share books during class. One class had such a depressed and hope forsaken teacher that all we did all year long was copy word from word from our text book. Ahh.. public education.. At least all of that was vindicated by the positive experiences of my senior year, but that was sheer dumb luck.
My understanding is that the school is doing considerably better now after getting a ballot measure multimillion dollar grant a few years ago. Woe to the 10 or so classes that were forced to spend 4 of the best years of their lives there and get next to nothing useful out of it.
Let me relate what I have obeserved with my family and education. I have 2 sisters and 1 brother, all younger than me, and we have been in private schools, public schools, public distance education (correspondence), and homeschooling. Of all of those, homeschooling was the best. Homeschooling was so incredibly flexible that my family was able to travel and see most of north america, gaining far more real life experience, practical knowledge, and good social skills than any of the others. Private schools were the worst, as it had all the social awkwardness of the public schools with a very limited amount of knowledge resources, its only real benifit seemed to come from the small class sizes so the teacher could give you more their time. Distance education was by far the most knowledge based, knowing lots of non-practical knowledge helped the most there. Public schools were about the closest experience to prison that I would ever want to get, as you were either the one on top or the one being pushed around.
My conclusion is those that will get the best education from those who care about you the most, in my family's case that was my parents. In other people's families the best they may get is a book that is impartial, preacher who cares, teacher who is cool, or an older friend who takes you under their wing. Saying which one is better probably boils down to personal experience.
In reponse to vhold's, I would say that was one of the main good things about the Scots school system in the 80's to early 90's: It was <i>very</i> practical, very fair, and very non-sexist.
Girls <i>had</i> to learn metalwork, guys <i>had</i> to learn cookery, etc etc...
By that I mean I am equally comfortable with an arc-welder, a PC or a spaghetti bolognaise..
Something not covered in very expensive Scottish private schools ( my girlfriend is a liability / danger in the kitchen tbh) and sadly disgarded from the current curriculum for some reason....( spelling, sorry, it's late..)
Just as an aside, <i>everyone</i> should learn to cook. Think it through, you only have a few options..
a) Eat out, few peeps can afford this every day.
b) Eat crap, like pot noodles, or whatever the equivalent is in your country.
c) Learn to cook. Tastes nice, comes in handy, and impresses chicks..
Do it. You don't need to get all "SnobbyChefGuy", but everyone should know how to knock up a quick pot of chilli or a stir fry....trust me on this one....
Yeah, I agree with Hamster, cooking is essential. I'm really popular with the ladies when it comes to my spaghetti. I got lucky with the cooking thing, my mom was nice enough to explain every last detail from shopping to what ends up on the dinner table, so I eat pretty good for having almost no money.
I would also suggest taking the time to learn personal finances (budgets, total income, total expenses, total net profit, quality vs quantity, return on investments) and how to keep good records, even if it is just a diary. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next on your list of things you never learn in school should probably be how to be clean, something basic like "Don't *crap* where you eat." and how washing body parts makes you popular with the ladies. Trust me on this, it was usually those kids in public school who's parents already had monetary budget surplus who were clean, as they had every single tool imaginary to make themselves smell and look nice, where as most people have to be imaginative in just making sure they find a way to not get the latest disease.
I'm sure there is even more I could suggest, like being responsible and diligent, but this should pretty much cover almost any situation and those are things that you pretty much need to teach yourself, though good examples to follow usually help.
Comments
Its a big undertaking, but great fun. I get to pass on the stuff I've learned, and explore new stuff too.
I will deffinately do everything I can to either select a school that will challenge my future children and constantly engage the administration in helping them live to their fullest potential.... OR I will have to look into private schools.
I think the problem with American schools is they don't know when to say "this kid is useless teach him how to use a welder." I mean if you are 15 and still in 6th grade you have to be wondering why you are wasting your time. Cut the kid loose and spend some money on kids that will actually do something. Or maybe pay for the kid to learn like plumbing or something.
I dislike the idea of government run schools, though the government should make education mandatory. I say, let a network of private, for profit high schools develop. Government give you a check for however much your school costs. The current system is both discriminatory (Forcing poor kids to go to poor schoools) as well as ineffective (sprawling suburban schools with abusive teacher unions, with no one learning.)
As far as government schooling goes, I think we can all agree that it needs to be in better shape. Especially here in Oklahoma, as our state is rated like 47th in the nation. Terrible terrible schools. But as bad as they are, they need to remain, and they need to remain free. When parents are uneducated or just plain cheap, they may not see the value of sending their children to school and especially won't be wanting to pay for it. And if the children grow up uneducated, they become uneducated parents. And thus this piece of crap state stays in pretty much the same economic condition its been in since the oil boom ended...
Basically, instead of the kids going to school, their parent(s) or some other person (such as a private hired teacher), who doesn't necessarily need any certification whatsoever, teaches the child. There are "kits" parents can buy w/ textbooks, homework assignments, and tests. Kid stays at home all day, with X times set aside for schooling and whatnot. No social interactions with other kids their age, no leaving the house, just staying completely attatched to Mommy and/or Daddy.
I was educated in a regular government school, completely traditional, and I did learn a helluva lot, but they <i>do</i> hit that point where you learn no more because you are waiting for the rest of your class to catch up..?
The way schools are structured means you almost have to hit that point where the teachers are so busy catering to the needs of all their pupils that individuals simply can't get the attention / personalised tuition that would enable them to progress..
Edit: That sounds bad / arrogant , but I mean in very specific areas y'know? I got an unconditional acceptance to one of the best art schools in the country at 17, this is not common, I think a lot of that was down to what I learned at home, in conjunction with my "normal" schooling
/opinion based on being an old guy who has been right through the standard UK education system.....I'm really not sure about this one....while I think home schooling would have worked for me, I can't comment for everyone else y'know?
He could well be onto something..
Edited to (hopefully) make more sense than my previous beer-fuelled rant. Sorry.
my qaint (sp?) little town is very very well educated and has excellent schools, so I'm not tripping
In terms of practicality Nem, we can set our own syllabus, and enter the kids as independent candidates for exams, so its not like they'll miss out on qualifications. Jen and I have had very different learning, she's very maths-y, and I'm more arts and languages, so we can take a fair share of the teaching. If there's a question we can't answer, we can learn together, how cool is that? Further, the homescholing network is so well stocked, theres an "expert" in practically every subject, along with someone that understands the method of teaching.
State schools are really only a recent invention, and for some parents, its sad to say, little more than unpaid babysitters...
State schools are really only a recent invention, and for some parents, its sad to say, little more than unpaid babysitters... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are 2 very important points. First, a teaching degree doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about a subject. A teaching degree means that you've been taught how to teach. The amount of "subject specific" classes varies slightly depending on which grades level and general subject one will be teaching. This leads to the second point: Not all of the people who graduate with a teaching degree can teach. Ever known someone who got passing grades in a class but couldn't really do much of the work? These people exist in the teaching world as well.
And don't even get me started on the Liberal Indoctrination that teachers in the U.S. go through to get their degrees.
I salute anyone willing to homeschool their kids. Not only do they have to provide for them, they're taking the time to help them learn. Not easy.
That is Finnish educational system.
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There are people from other countries on this forum you know. I meant federal (government-funded) schooling in general, not just in the U.S.
Alot of times it doesn't work though...I used to know a family that home-schooled their single child, lived miles away from the nearest kid, and he was really messed up. frankly I would be supportive of homeschooling if there were some means of "quality control"...but there really isn't.
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There are people from other countries on this forum you know. I meant federal (government-funded) schooling in general, not just in the U.S. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well denver colorado is in the united states I thought <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if they are from another country it most likely they are in a unitary country and they just have a national goverment and so there still is no federal goverment. Its the national goverment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alot of times it doesn't work though...I used to know a family that home-schooled their single child, lived miles away from the nearest kid, and he was really messed up. frankly I would be supportive of homeschooling if there were some means of "quality control"...but there really isn't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if he lives miles away from the nearest kid a public school isint gonna help that. I would say realying on public schools to just educate your kid without any work in yourself is not a good idea. Your school does not face the consiquences if your kid can't read. My mom taught my cousin's kids to read when their mom worked. Now the both are exseptional students.
On the contrary, some public schools' funding derives from the performance (and attendance) of their students. And in my opinion a public school in a small town is better than being alone for the first 18 years of your life ('cept if you have relatives living with you, though that's another matter).
You can't just say home schooling = messsed up kids without evidence.
Example of homeschooled ineptitude:
Driver's Ed, 1995.
Homeschooled guy walks into a school classroom for the first time, with people his age for the first time.
Homeschooled guy sees a girl for first time.
First words out of homeschooled guy's mouth, outloud, in front of the whole classroom, are "wow, boobies!!!"
I'm not making this up.
By that I mean, a kid in an "All boys", "All girls", "All catholic girls" , "All Whatever" school is likely to respond in a similar way..
My point still stands, "conventional" schooling has produced most of the idiots and f*ckwits currently active in our society, and I am sure you will agree, they are numerous...
Unless you can <i>prove</i> home school kids turn out messed up, you are making a gross generalisation.
I dislike the idea of government run schools, though the government should make education mandatory. I say, let a network of private, for profit high schools develop. Government give you a check for however much your school costs. The current system is both discriminatory (Forcing poor kids to go to poor schoools) as well as ineffective (sprawling suburban schools with abusive teacher unions, with no one learning.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats how the english system works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
also im not sure if it was just my school : or if its done in all others around england, but we were divded into "sets". ie i was "set 1" for maths : we RARLEY had to wait for someone to catch up, and because we were all "clever", per say, we rarley had any tossers who would sit there disrupting classes thorwing things......that happened next door <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that government schooling is appropriate, because the standard of education is more or less universal, as are the social enviroments and every other aspect. This does not mean I disagree with home schooling across the board, personally I couldn't learn in the home enviroment, I would just get distracted. I agree that for some people home schooling is much better than government schooling. I would excpect (although I'm not saying anyone falling under these catergories should be homescholled, or shouldn't be homeschoolled) that the exceptionall gift, should be home-schooled as they can be challengd more. Anyone who finds it difficult to learn in a school enviroment (whether they can't concentrate in class or have a social disorder (although I know people with social disorders and by going to a government school their social skills have grown).
Eitherway I think all homeschoolled children should have regular government tests to make sure they are reciving the same quality of education that is provided by the governments education system.
I'm in Scotland myself, but I know for a fact that our current basic system ( Standard Grades) is nowhere near equal to the system it replaced..( O-Grades) .
It's easier.
I went through high school in the period these changed over, therefore I <i>have</i> done both exams, to me there is no doubt the newer standards were "dumbed down", almost exactly at the time "performance related" pay and bonuses were introduced for teaching staff and school budgets....
After I graduated, the true symbol of this lack of functional education hit me when I had to do taxes for the first time. Then I thought about personal financial management, dealing with the DMV, all of these things people have to deal with, and get confused about, all the time, and for some reason public educational seems to think its not their responsability to teach kids about it?
I was fortunate enough that because of the underfunded aspect, and one young new teacher wanting to setup a networked computer lab (in 1994 with no money), I was able to turn the last 1.5 years of my public education into a mostly self taught vocational environment. Besides all the technical skills though, the important experience was what it was like to work on a project with a diverse group of people, that had a very limited budget, and plan and coordinate actually creating and accomplishing something. But only myself and about 4 other students were able to benefit from this. (BTW: after I graduated, I came back about 9 months later and got an OK job there, paid for partially by charging students during lunch and after school to play doom/descent, hows that for precolumbine mentality)
Probably the only other group of people in my high school that had a positive experience along these lines were the autoshop crowd. If you weren't a verified college bound academic, or at least having a good time in sports/band/theatre, you were probably an incredibly depressed and resentful prisoner. The school had an abandoned metal shop, electronics lab, and radio station (all of which we used to store/repair computers, and setup network infrastructure), but all those things were the first to go when funding started to dry up. Because only one department a year could buy a single set of new books, there was a class (this is public school...) where we had to get our parents to cough up $120 for two books, and since some parents wouldn't do this, we had to push desks together and share books during class. One class had such a depressed and hope forsaken teacher that all we did all year long was copy word from word from our text book. Ahh.. public education.. At least all of that was vindicated by the positive experiences of my senior year, but that was sheer dumb luck.
My understanding is that the school is doing considerably better now after getting a ballot measure multimillion dollar grant a few years ago. Woe to the 10 or so classes that were forced to spend 4 of the best years of their lives there and get next to nothing useful out of it.
My conclusion is those that will get the best education from those who care about you the most, in my family's case that was my parents. In other people's families the best they may get is a book that is impartial, preacher who cares, teacher who is cool, or an older friend who takes you under their wing. Saying which one is better probably boils down to personal experience.
In reponse to vhold's, I would say that was one of the main good things about the Scots school system in the 80's to early 90's: It was <i>very</i> practical, very fair, and very non-sexist.
Girls <i>had</i> to learn metalwork, guys <i>had</i> to learn cookery, etc etc...
By that I mean I am equally comfortable with an arc-welder, a PC or a spaghetti bolognaise..
Something not covered in very expensive Scottish private schools ( my girlfriend is a liability / danger in the kitchen tbh)
and sadly disgarded from the current curriculum for some reason....( spelling, sorry, it's late..)
Just as an aside, <i>everyone</i> should learn to cook. Think it through, you only have a few options..
a) Eat out, few peeps can afford this every day.
b) Eat crap, like pot noodles, or whatever the equivalent is in your country.
c) Learn to cook. Tastes nice, comes in handy, and impresses chicks..
Do it. You don't need to get all "SnobbyChefGuy", but everyone should know how to knock up a quick pot of chilli or a stir fry....trust me on this one....
I would also suggest taking the time to learn personal finances (budgets, total income, total expenses, total net profit, quality vs quantity, return on investments) and how to keep good records, even if it is just a diary. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next on your list of things you never learn in school should probably be how to be clean, something basic like "Don't *crap* where you eat." and how washing body parts makes you popular with the ladies. Trust me on this, it was usually those kids in public school who's parents already had monetary budget surplus who were clean, as they had every single tool imaginary to make themselves smell and look nice, where as most people have to be imaginative in just making sure they find a way to not get the latest disease.
I'm sure there is even more I could suggest, like being responsible and diligent, but this should pretty much cover almost any situation and those are things that you pretty much need to teach yourself, though good examples to follow usually help.