The Animatrix -robots

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  • Smoke_NovaSmoke_Nova Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8697Members
    ...some physicists in here.


    ok, they never said anything about a fusion reactor but rather a simple form of fusion to utilize human bio-energy.

    *sigh* Watch the movie again and LISTEN.
  • AllUrHiveRblong2usAllUrHiveRblong2us By Your Powers Combined... Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11244Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--TheInfragableKrunk+May 9 2003, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheInfragableKrunk @ May 9 2003, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some of the questions you asked are already answered.

    In order to partake in fusion you need dirunium(sp?) there is VERY little of it on earth and it dies rather quickly.

    Yes a whale would give off more heat then a human would...BUT

    Rules of physics apply to SURFACE AREA what has more surface area per unit? well take a look at it. a human has legs arms head body...the whake has body and fins, now you get enough humans to equal a whales mass you would have MILES of surface area compared to a entire whale...thus giving off more HEAT.


    Simple Physics...once you get past physics your intelligance level goes through the roof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That has absolutely nothing to do with the AMOUNT of heat given off, if anything it causes LESS to be given off. The only thing that is affected be surface area heat-wise is WHERE the heat is given off. Just because a whale has less surface area doesn't mean that a sizeable chunk if the heat it's giving off just kinda dissapears. It merely has less amount of places to go, but it HAS to go somewhere.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    Just one thing...

    What was the year in the matrix again? 2199 or so? It is concievable that Whales were extinct by the time the machines were condsidering their energy source, and humans being so populous were a more "Ideal" choice.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    Who here's read Asimov? You know, the 3 Laws of Robotics? If those were to be implemented in robots and AI, a machine takeover would be impossible.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    I've been plowing through Asimov for quite a bit now, for those not in the know, the Three laws of Robotics:

    1. A robot cannot harm a human, or through inaction, allow a human to be harmed

    2. A robot must obey human commands except where this would conflict with the first law

    3. A robot must protect its own existence, except where this would conflict with the first and second law

    What many people dont know, unless they have read the foundation series, is that there is in fact a fourth rule to robotics, I cant remember it precisely, but the gist of it was;

    4. The survival of man supercedes all three laws

    Or something like that.

    It's a pity humans dont follow similar rules, society as a whole would be much improved <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ChromeAngelChromeAngel Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 14Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited May 2003
    I found the whole humans as batteries thing to be the least convincing part of the Matrix plot. Geo-thermal energy would have been much more practical.

    I get the feeling that the Matrix was constructed as a VR before the machines took over. However something hard-coded into the AI's prevented them from ending the Matrix project, especially if the AI's were built to maintain the Matrix in the first place. The whole humans as batteries thing could be a miss-conception by the survivors ( I don't recall the Agents ever refering to it ). Apart from the agents "possessing" people all the AI's actions fit the pattern of protecting in-matrix people from oustide influences.
  • AldarisAldaris Join Date: 2002-03-25 Member: 351Members, Constellation
    Well, Geo-thermal energy can't happen cos the center of the Earth is the only warm place any more, and the humans live there, so thats buggered.

    Robot inserrection is easily and is seen in a number of sci-fi movies and series. What would happen if a robot just designs the next generation version and removes those laws from the program? One could argue that this follows the 3rd law, but breaks the 1st and 4th laws, tho if the robot doesn't fully compute the effects of removing those laws then it may still happen.
  • eggmaceggmac Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
    guys, it is <b>just a movie</b>
    Fiction which has <b>absolutely nothing to do with reality</b>

    It is useless to try to find logical faults in the movie, as everything is just made up. Besides, it is <i>even more</i> useless to try to explain the logic behind it.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited May 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+May 10 2003, 09:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ May 10 2003, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What many people dont know, unless they have read the foundation series, is that there is in fact a fourth rule to robotics, I cant remember it precisely, but the gist of it was;

    4. The survival of man supercedes all three laws

    Or something like that.

    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It is, in fact, the Zeroth Law:

    0. A robot must not harm humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to be harmed.

    And it does indeed superceed the other 3. But this wasn't ever built into robots, it was devised by a robot, and he was the only one capable of obeying it in a manner that might break the First Law without his positronic brain burning out.
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    *sigh*...some movies have a bad habit of NOT doing the most logical thing. The humans could've just evacuated the Earth and obliterate it from space for all I care. If fictional movies were of any logic, then it wouldn't be interesting mostly because it would be so easy to predict.
  • AllUrHiveRblong2usAllUrHiveRblong2us By Your Powers Combined... Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11244Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+May 10 2003, 09:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ May 10 2003, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *sigh*...some movies have a bad habit of NOT doing the most logical thing. The humans could've just evacuated the Earth and obliterate it from space for all I care. If fictional movies were of any logic, then it wouldn't be interesting mostly because it would be so easy to predict. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Like the Matrix wasn't tired and predictable anyway?
    WHAT?!?! You mean they fall in love and he beats up the bad guys?!?! OMG!!!!11 never saw that one coming

    Seriously though, the first time I ever saw the Matrix I nearly walked out in the beginning of the oracle seen because I already knew exactly how it would end.
  • X_StickmanX_Stickman Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
    getting back to the whole AI-future issue, there's a guy in the UK who is doing a study on robotic evolution. There were 10 "hunter" robots and 15 "prey" robots. When a hunter robot caught a prey robot, it took the battery power from it, effectivly killing it (as they weren't turned back on or re-charged), but the hunter robots HAD to get their energy this way. Each of the robots had some slightly different coding, some of them prefering to run away in a straight line, some zig-zagging etc. The robots were watched as they did this, and the best robots (the ones that stayed "alive), were turned off for a while, and the "best" (succesful) parts of their coding were mixed and put into a new robot, making a crude form of intellectual evolution. It is in it's early stages (if it's still going on) but already the prey robots have started forming packs, and the Hunter robots have begun fighting each other for the prey.
    Scary ****, but again they are held in check by the fact that they cannot reproduce by themselves
  • ChromeAngelChromeAngel Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 14Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Oops. I just re-watched the DVD and found Smith refers to "crops", which blows my theory out of the water. I must think up a new theory.

    Regarding the geo-thermal energy thing, the 22nd centuary goons must have really messed up the Earth for only the centre to still be hot. Currently the Earths crust is only about 35KM thick, with a further 6000KM of molten rock bellow, that's a hell of a lot of energy to use up in a hundred years, even without solar warming.

    Yeah it's just an action movie, but it would be nice for a holywood writer to make an effort occasionaly :/

    "Plot holes you can drive a bus through, but you gotta love the lobby scene" is how I describe the Matrix.
  • Bo_SelectaBo_Selecta Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9374Members, Constellation
    They explain the humans as batteries thingy on the DVD?
    how did the robots solve the closed system -> energy input == output so there's no way in hell humans are ever going to be able to produce power problem?
  • SycophantSycophant Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7092Members
    Despite the fact that this conversation ended two days ago and I had to dig three layers into OT to find it again, this comic is still somewhat relevant to the discussion.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes a whale would give off more heat then a human would...BUT

    Rules of physics apply to SURFACE AREA what has more surface area per unit? well take a look at it. a human has legs arms head body...the whake has body and fins, now you get enough humans to equal a whales mass you would have MILES of surface area compared to a entire whale...thus giving off more HEAT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <img src='http://users.frailart.net/cmallard/pvp20030512.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DocterJDocterJ Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15357Members
    heh. But what <i>is</i> real?
  • ZelZel Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12861Members
    using fusion and geothermal the robots could live for along long time on earth without the sun, yes the energy would be depleted, but surely in the thousand years they have to spare they will be venturing off this planet and making a few thousand solar collecters in space...

    if you say the robots dont know anything about space travel, well, neither did humans in 1500, and it took them only 500 years to go from sticks and stones to rocketscience. and surely the robots could do that faster.
  • UZiUZi Eight inches of C4 between the legs. Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13767Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+May 9 2003, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ May 9 2003, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just one thing...

    What was the year in the matrix again? 2199 or so? It is concievable that Whales were extinct by the time the machines were condsidering their energy source, and humans being so populous were a more "Ideal" choice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Affermative....most likely we turned them into some form of fast food. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ElvenThiefElvenThief aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8754Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Keep in mind that the Matrix doesn't only draw power from humanity, but is also subdues it. There's are multiple purposes to using humans as power sources. They're the only thing that can contest the AI of the future, and it's obvious that they will manage and have managed to survive and contest the AI regardless of how well the AI attempts to eliminate them.
    Yeah, you could get your energy from cows, but the human threat would still exist.

    My 10 cents, the 2 cents are free.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Aldaris+May 10 2003, 12:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ May 10 2003, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Robot inserrection is easily and is seen in a number of sci-fi movies and series. What would happen if a robot just designs the next generation version and removes those laws from the program? One could argue that this follows the 3rd law, but breaks the 1st and 4th laws, tho if the robot doesn't fully compute the effects of removing those laws then it may still happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Problem. It cant. Removing the laws of robotics from the next generation would violate the first and fourth laws in the creator robot. By creating a robot that can harm humans, it has violated the first and fourth law, therefore, the robot is incapable of creating a robot that does not conform to the four laws.

    Also, Asimov described the laws as differing amounts of potential. Let me try to draw an analogy from the analogy.

    The first law is like a mountain. Immovable, virtually indestructable, and cannot be superceded (except by the Zeroth Law(thanks Insane)).

    The second law in comparison is like a boulder. Heavy, but surmountable under certain conditions. 1st law beats second and third law hands down.

    Third Law, very much like a pebble. The third law can no more move a mountain then the boulder can, and even then the pebble is hard pressed to move the boulder.

    The Zeroth law in comparison to the previous three, is like an entire planet. Destroy a mountain, and the planet will still exist. In fact, a mountain is to a planet as a fingernail is to a human...

    I hope I didnt confuse you too much there, so here it is summarised:

    Zeroth is greater(stronger) then all laws

    1st law is greater(stronger) then the second and third law

    2nd law is greater(stronger) then the third law alone

    3rd law is the weakest law. When all things are considered, self preservation is the absolute last thing on the robots mind. The preservation of a mans life supercedes the second and third laws. The Zeroth law; the survival of man, supercedes all the laws, therefore, a machine with these things absolutely hard coded in will find it impossible to do anything that can harm mankind, or create something that can harm mankind.

    This effectively leaves the blood of war on human hands, robots with decision making processes will never under any circumstances (unless under abberation) be able to hurt humans actively, passively, or through the creation of something that can harm humans.
  • TransmissionTransmission Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14456Members
    So using these laws, the only way for robots to attack humans is if humans are giving them instructions. I vaguely remember at the end of one of the Asimov books that someone was planning to put robots in a ship and telling them to attack another "robot" ship, while the ship is infact filled with humans. This way the robots would kill the humans, while they think they are destroying robots. Maybe the same thing is happening in the Matrix world, with a human running the robot empire. Then again, that's just stupid <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . I'll stick with my loop holes.
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