Lerk Bite Protest...

2

Comments

  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited May 2003
    Only dean is protesting??? MY A**!!!! it doesnt make any sense...a marine on support is a guy with a welder, but wait...a welder costs 10 res, a lerk costs 33...theres more...a welder heals armor instead of simply blocking some of the damage like umbra...omg theres more...a guy with a welder can still pull out an hmg and own you, a lerk can...uh...not...do anything like that...at all....

    some how i missed the whole balanced part of the new lerk and its 'support' role.

    honestly, 3 gorges and 2 onos is better than any lerk combo in 1.1. Taking the bite out of a lerk not only made it a waste of res, but it made it a waste of time. Why the hell would you spend any time developing a lerk so that it is easier to control, and is faster than any other alien in the game, when it has to wait for the slow aliens to catch up, because if it went anywhere by itself it would get own.

    As for people who die as lerks 'too easily' all i can say is you need more practice. I am a dedicated lerk and I try to play it as much as possible, with the exclusion of every other class except the skulk, and a gorge every now and then (but even that is only if i absolutly have to) and I can honestly say that I only die once in a blue moon when i do something really stupid as a lerk. It takes a lot more than 5 marines shooting at me to kill me, i have to do something stupid first. Now maybe Flayra doesnt care about the rare dedicated lerker like me, maybe he cares more about the new guy whos just starting out playing Natural Selection...but I truely wonder how long even dedicated spikers will play as a lerk when they could save to go onos and do oh so much more...I think this is the end of the lerk. And I for one am not only very angry, but sad.

    As for 1.1 itself...why the hell would I want to play 10 super intense 5 minute rounds of NS, when i could play a damn good, strategy oriented 30-50 minute game... it makes no sense to me...NS in my opinion isnt about speed...CS and TFC are about speed...NS is about hiding the in the shadows, and working as a team to over take the enemy, not to tech rush and onos rush just to kill people faster, thats pointless.

    Seriously, unless someone makes a 1.04 league, I will stop playing NS, because with the updates made, although beutiful as they are (I love the new maps from the pics ive seen and i think some of the other updates are awsome) but seriously, NS had a few minore balancing issues...it didnt need to have both teams overpowered to cancel eachother out. Thats pointless...

    So I think I can speak for everyone who loves the lerk when I say that its a stupid update that never should have happened...Sorry Flayra, but if you make something and give it to the public, you got to listen to the criticism too. And honestly, I hope you listen to mine, because the only reason I'm so angry is because I love this game so much.

    -[ReD]RedDragon[USA]-
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited May 2003
    The lerks purpose has changed. It's not the melee fighter you all know and love. It's a support role. Embracing this would be suggested. It still has its purposes. This isn't counterstrike and the goal isnt to rack up as many kills as you can. The lerk bite is gone. Why protest what will in all likely hood never change. It is pure support role as flayra wanted it to be. If you want to kill stuff more then don't go lerk. I can gurantee that on occassion when the situation calls for it, you will be a lerk. The lerk isn't a class you always need, it is only a nice help. Perhaps all that lerk ability can be ported to the fade with the new blink.
  • boobs!boobs! Old-School Competitor Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8504Members
    watch his USA vs KOREA demos, he really does love his lerk :o
  • boobs!boobs! Old-School Competitor Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8504Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Kenichi+May 13 2003, 10:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ May 13 2003, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it so funny how people are protesting lerk bite when they havn't played 1.1. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    and i find it funny how you can post this stuff, please sir do us a favor and leave your witty banter out of this, it does nothing but make people mad. (sorry Charlie I had to reply to this, i know you warned me before about Ken)
  • watch_me_diewatch_me_die Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8107Members
    Boobs, the problem is that Ken is right here...
  • RuriRuri Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4709Members
    edited May 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Kenichi+May 14 2003, 03:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ May 14 2003, 03:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it so funny how people are protesting lerk bite when they havn't played 1.1. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Who said u need to play the new Lerk to see if you like the fact bite was taken out or not? Tell me numbers, skills, etc, and I can give a good judgement of balance. Some of us have played this game so religiously we no longer need hands on experience to base our opinions.

    I don't like the fact that skulks are now the sole offense early game, support or no support. Some people were better as Lerks, some were better as skulks.

    Quit trolling Kenichi, you added nothing to this discussion.
  • Jim_has_SkillzJim_has_Skillz Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12475Members, Constellation
    I don't understand what can replace the bite! It makes no sense! Maybe if someone explained to us why the lerk is better in v1.1 we might accept it, as of right now, there hasn't been any clear explanation except that it will be an all defensive role. As it is right now, the lerk is very defensive! What happened to it has made it too defensive and it has gone too far. When I play v1.1, I will give you my opinion about it after a couple games. I am betting that my opinion, along with most of everyone else that liked the bite will be the same. The thing is, we just love the bite, so I don't see how it can be replaced.
  • watch_me_diewatch_me_die Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8107Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ruri+May 14 2003, 04:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ May 14 2003, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Kenichi+May 14 2003, 03:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ May 14 2003, 03:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it so funny how people are protesting lerk bite when they havn't played 1.1. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Who said u need to play the new Lerk to see if you like the fact bite was taken out or not? Tell me numbers, skills, etc, and I can give a good judgement of balance. Some of us have played this game so religiously we no longer need hands on experience to base our opinions.

    I don't like the fact that skulks are now the sole offense in a 1 hive situation, support or no support. Some people were better as Lerks, some were better as skulks.

    Quit trolling Kenichi, you added nothing to this discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ruri explain how skulks are the sole offense in a one hive situation?

    changelog: "Removed hive requirement for higher lifeforms. This should stop stalemates when aliens have resources but marines have camped hives."

    Do you mean that the higher lifeforms are not "good" enough for their cost at the one-hive stage?
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
    edited May 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Jim has Skillz+May 13 2003, 10:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ May 13 2003, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't understand what can replace the bite! It makes no sense!  Maybe if someone explained to us why the lerk is better in v1.1 we might accept it, as of right now, there hasn't been any clear explanation except that it will be an all defensive role.  As it is right now, the lerk is very defensive! What happened to it has made it too defensive and it has gone too far.  When I play v1.1, I will give you my opinion about it after a couple games.  I am betting that my opinion, along with most of everyone else that liked the bite will be the same.  The thing is, we just love the bite, so I don't see how it can be replaced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The lerk is fragile. It is in 1.04, it has been in 1.1 playtests. I, for one, would not like to spend that much res on a playerclass to risk getting to that close of a range, airborne or not, and use bite.

    Spikes offer a fairly damaging hitscan weapon with a cheap price (skulk parasite does a measly 10, gorge ranged weapons are projectile). Spores offer area denial. Both are available at 1 hive. I think I prefer the proposed 1.1 setup myself.

    [Edit]Am I unskilled? Sure. Call me unskilled. Brag all you want about your ability to do loop-de-loops around me with your Red Baron piloting ability, biting all the while. Does that make me like 1.1 lerks any less?[/edit]
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    maybe you dont like to get that close, but i live for fly by bitings, and I'm d*mn good at it!

    watch my USA vs Korea demo, you'll see how I lerk.
  • RuriRuri Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4709Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--[watch.me.die]+May 14 2003, 03:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([watch.me.die] @ May 14 2003, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ruri explain how skulks are the sole offense in a one hive situation?

    changelog: "Removed hive requirement for higher lifeforms. This should stop stalemates when aliens have resources but marines have camped hives."

    Do you mean that the higher lifeforms are not "good" enough for their cost at the one-hive stage? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    sorry I meant early game.
  • watch_me_diewatch_me_die Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8107Members
    edited May 2003
    So how does that change, it's not like lerks are a large proportion of early offense in 1.04. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • criticaIcriticaI Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15269Banned, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--[ReD]GreyRaven+May 13 2003, 10:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ReD]GreyRaven @ May 13 2003, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, unless someone makes a 1.04 league, I will stop playing NS, because with the updates made, although beutiful as they are (I love the new maps from the pics ive seen and i think some of the other updates are awsome) but seriously, NS had a few minore balancing issues...it didnt need to have both teams overpowered to cancel eachother out.  Thats pointless...

    So I think I can speak for everyone who loves the lerk when I say that its a stupid update that never should have happened...Sorry Flayra, but if you make something and give it to the public, you got to listen to the criticism too.  And honestly, I hope you listen to mine, because the only reason I'm so angry is because I love this game so much.

    -[ReD]RedDragon[USA]-<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Heh.. yet another person who is too in love with the past....
    I'll agree, Lerk Bite is the funnest action in 1.04.
    Lerk is different in 1.1. Lerk with silence + spikes = pwn.
    Spore stacking bottlenecks = pwn.
    Lerk hitbox = suckage, its like the size of an onos <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    perhaps I'm in love with a good thing...not everything from 'the past' (1.04 is the present version if im right) is bad. Plus, have you ever seen me as a 1 hive lerk? theres almost no difference between the second hive and the first hive lerk except one runs out of energy a little faster.
  • LucidLucid Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10534Members, Constellation
    hmmmmm, maybe i'm "jumping the gun" here like some ReD members but I think the lerk will be an extremely boring alien class to play as. It seems to me that spores and spike are basically different versions on the same weapon except spores require little skill. It's like the skulk having bite and swipe. But again what would I know. I haven't played 1.1. I'm sorry but acting as an alien gas turret just doesn't seem like fun. I mean... they are no fun now. As a a lerk i love swooping in taking a few bites then falling back and finishing off a lvl 1 armor marine with spikes, or vise versa. And I've gotten pretty good at it. Spamming gas really takes no skill and therefore is no fun.

    Oh and I've never cleaned septic systems but I think I could tell you that it isnt fun. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Jim_has_SkillzJim_has_Skillz Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12475Members, Constellation
    Can someone explain to me what flayra meant when you don't need hives to get to higher lifeforms but you still need hives for lifeforms?

    Quoted:
    O Removed hive requirement for higher lifeforms. This should stop stalemates when aliens have resources but marines have camped hives. Note that aliens still need hives for lifeforms, upgrades and faster spawning.

    Also, the lerk spores have been considerably reduced in damage and really don't offer anything to the lerk. Sure, everyone is going to try the lerk, but the people that love the lerk will most likely join marines or do something else. The bite is what makes the lerk great.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    It means that you still need 1 hive to spawn. It doesn't mean that aliens no longer need hives at all.

    And to clarify, an Onos is available at hive 1.
  • The_GunslingerThe_Gunslinger Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12031Members, Constellation
    I'll miss the lerk... to say the Lerk is weak isn't true... you have to use it's speed and in-air manuverability to your advantage, just like birds in the real world...


    -Skillzilla
  • Jim_has_SkillzJim_has_Skillz Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12475Members, Constellation
    What, so it can fly around and look pretty? Thats very nice and all but I like doing something active when I play NS.
  • BlackoutBlackout Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9004Members
    I'm sad to see the lerk bite go, but I would be downright angry if nothing was put in it's place to counter JPs. I know that the cost is ~20 res per jp (and OTs are ~10, with better target tracking), and that changes may still be in the works, but I'm craving something more significant -- and dependent on the player's skill -- in place to check them. If JPs just become harder to fund and it gets easier to spam OTs, I see some boring matches ahead.

    At any rate, 1.1 has (as far as I know) come a long long way and I appreciate the improvements.
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    Lucid, i would have to say this is where RTS aspects come in to play. While yes it isn't the most exciting and kill friendly class, it is still quite usefull. Also, the lerk at the moment dies so fast that if you aren't quick on your feet you can die fast. It's not so boring that you can slack off when you play as it. Its primary focus is support. Of course that doesn't always mean more fun. The occassions you would use it in do and will pop up.

    Jim has Skillz, that means that at hive 1 you can gest into all alien forms. You no longer need 2 hives to go fade, or 3 to go onos. Also, spores were boosted a bit i believe in one of the later patches after the large changelog was made. I forgot what to or if they were also updated in the change log. I myself think they should be stronger than they currently are. I don't feel marines fear the spores as much as they should and as such they run right through spores without a second though. Which sorta defeats the point of making the spores a weapon to supres marines.

    The_gunslinger, it WAY to easy to get shotdown, but speed is definitly to your advantage, but if you are snuck up on consider yourself dead.
  • The_GunslingerThe_Gunslinger Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12031Members, Constellation
    edited May 2003
    No, so you can fly around and pick off Marines....

    [Edit] If you get snuck up as anything (other than Onos) there is a good chance you'll die.... [/edit]
  • MagiTekMagiTek Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5057Members
    edited May 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--[ReD]GreyRaven+May 14 2003, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ReD]GreyRaven @ May 14 2003, 03:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am a dedicated lerk and I try to play it as much as possible, with the exclusion of every other class except the skulk, and a gorge every now and then (but even that is only if i absolutly have to) and I can honestly say that I only die once in a blue moon when i do something really stupid as a lerk.  It takes a lot more than 5 marines shooting at me to kill me, i have to do something stupid first.  Now maybe Flayra doesnt care about the rare dedicated lerker like me, maybe he cares more about the new guy whos just starting out playing Natural Selection... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It is for this very reason why bite is being removed, Dragon. Because in the hands of a skilled player, the lerk is a tremendously effective jack of all trades. They have a perfectly accurate hitscan ranged weapon, a powerful close range attack, and the ability to dash extremely quickly with just a few flaps. It isn't an easy class to master, but in skilled hands is better in almost every way than alien classes who supposedly excel at either ranged or melee. The whole tactical philosophy of NS is versatile marines vs. specialized aliens. That though personal skills are very important, you must rely on your teammates to succeed. The Lerk will no longer be able to fly into a room and singlehandedly bite 4 marines' faces off, but now he'll be able to find a dark corner and snipe away at marines while skulks and fades cause chaos. He'll be able to kill one marine after another before anyone finds him, or even realizes they're being spiked. Then he can fly away, come back and do it again. And again. And again. He'll be the specialized harasser/guerilla fighter that he is described to be in the manual; the class he was intended to be. And your threats of leaving the community because you can't show off your leet individual alien skillz so much will fall upon deaf ears.
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+May 13 2003, 07:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ May 13 2003, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lux summed it up rather nicely. If he continues to die too easily, I'll bump up his health or armor a bit more, but overall, I'm really happy with his new support role! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    if flayra wants have lerks be support, I'm all for it, it is HIS game

    <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->


    and I think that having umbra being "shot" makes alot of sense, the only thing that bite does is encourage lerks to leave there "lerking" role and explose themselves to more fire
  • The_GunslingerThe_Gunslinger Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12031Members, Constellation
    You know what would be good? Stop repeating ourselves over and over... I know I've done it too, but we're not getting anywhere with this. We're either repeating ourselves or other people. Why fight? Lets <3
  • casinocasino Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15422Members
    omg <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
    i agree with what most people have said
    lerks need the bite!

    save the lerks!!!!!!!
    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->

    and why no lerk smile <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> i think people are out to get the lerks!
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Here's the deal for now.

    We agree that while it may be different, we need to try it out.

    Therefore, we will cease protesting and complaining until 1.1 is released, and then after, the discussion on how we feel about it will be open, mmm k ?
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    a valid point, but adjusting that doesnt require that you take away its only really good attack, and then squash all the other attacks...

    lower the health or armor of the lerk, make it equal or less than that of a skulk if you feel it necessary. Im never invincible, its just that most of the time people cant shoot me because I can move so quickly as a lerk, if this is the problem perhaps you should slow it down. All of these changes I dont like but seriously, killing the lerk as a class isnt the answer...I'd be willing to compromise in other ways, but against a lone, unarmed Resource tower...the lerk doesnt have a chance anymore...thats just wrong.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if flayra wants have lerks be support, I'm all for it, it is HIS game
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    if its "his" game, then why are we playing it? Its a game, he made, and made public, and no offense to flayra, because you're my hero for making this game, but sometimes you're going to get people who dont like changes, and sometimes, it might be a good idea to pay attention to those people because they've spent a great many hours playing a game you made and they love.
  • ReDDeanReDDean Join Date: 2003-01-11 Member: 12185Members
    Welp, the Deanster has to make a post in here. In regards to people saying that you have to try the 'new 1.1' lerk to decide whether or not the bite taken out was a bad idea. Well (counter-strike reference) lets say they would take out the m4a1(skill), and AWP(skill) from the cts and put a Mac 10 (nub) in their place. I don't think ppl would have to play the newer version of CS to know that it would suk. This is the case with the 1.04 BITE lerks (probably the only skillful lerks out there (from what i'v seen)). They are losing their m4a1/AWP (bite) and getting a Mac 10(spikes) in its place. Now for the people who do not use m4a1/AWP because they can't, they love this change. That is the case with the vet/pt. Few of you people can actually use bite effectively, that’s why you’re hearing all this pro-1.1-lerk junk and not enough of anti-1.1-lerk. Change is only good if it is for the better. I can honestly say that this change will totally turn me off NS.

    P.S. From second I heard about this change and all throughout play testing, my opinion about the new lerk has not changed.

    -Dean (Pro-biter)
This discussion has been closed.