How To Make Hmgs Bad At Close Range

PseudoKnight · June 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">to make the shotgun viable in late game</div> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>as for making hmg worse at close-range, i have no clue, but if it was done..somehow then shotgun would gain a use! </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Two ways I can think of and can work in tandem. It would just increase the skill needed to kill close range with the HMG.

- Narrower cone of fire. This has already been done. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>
- Tighter/smaller hitboxes.

The narrower cone of fire would increase it's effectiveness in long range, so a slight reduction in damage might be a good thing to add on top of that. But this has probably already been addressed.

As for hitboxes, it's really easy to spray-and-pray with an HMG close range and hit a hitbox. It's not as easy to change and it may have already been addressed, but I thought I'd mention anyway since it is a way to decrease effectiveness of the HMG close range.

Brainstorm people. There has to be another way as well.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

How dare I mention this... but capped turning-speed? I don't even know if it's possible, but I'm brainstorming.

Snidely · June 2003

I've made a suggestion about this before...namely, to make the HMG bad at close range in the way shotty ought to be bad at long range. Make it so that the HMG has a chance to miss if the alien is close up. It doesn't have to be drastic, just, say, 15%. That way, you'll still be powerful, yet less effective.

Cowswin · June 2003

Capping the turning speed of the person wielding an HMG is possibly one of the best suggestions ever. I thought about it but didn't think Flayra would like it. The only problem is balancing this with the JP. Perhaps no JP HMG/GL available? I've got a big post for suggestions to change the whole tech tree of marines to make it more interesting ala tech routes (some paths will actually close while others open) but I'll save it for later unless a dev wants it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Wheeee · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jun 10 2003, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I've made a suggestion about this before...namely, to make the HMG bad at close range in the way shotty ought to be bad at long range. Make it so that the HMG has a chance to miss if the alien is close up. It doesn't have to be drastic, just, say, 15%. That way, you'll still be powerful, yet less effective.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's um...a very bad way to code things, unless you made the miss ratio scale to distance.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

Here I am thinking of intuitive ways to do it and you come up with the obvious answer: change the damage it does up close. How easily would that be coded though? Would it be better to just decrease the damage close range than to have misses?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's um...a very bad way to code things, unless you made the miss ratio scale to distance. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>That's what I was thinking. But do you even have a target distance to base the equation in HL?

(for those who are wondering, I got tired of being left out of beta discussions... couldn't take it... must discuss.. heh)

PseudoKnight · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The only problem is balancing this with the JP. Perhaps no JP HMG/GL available? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>People would learn to avoid that combo on their own.

[edit]
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I've got a big post for suggestions to change the whole tech tree of marines to make it more interesting ala tech routes (some paths will actually close while others open) but I'll save it for later unless a dev wants it </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>I'm interested in seeing it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Talesin · June 2003

Well, a few things come to mind.

<li>Spin-up time
<li>Immobilization while firing
<li>VERY large muzzleflash, blocking most of what is nearby (gas-vent system?)
<li>Gyrojet HMG. (Not sure if HL supports this) Damage is proportional to the distance travelled, to a given point where it drops back down again. Making the bullets very weak in close, but powerful down a hallway.

Link the first two to make an HMG-toter very vulnerable to packs of Skulks attacking in that 'free' time. Would move HMGs to a support role (where I feel they really belong... there's no current DOWN side to switching from LMG to HMG, as with the other upgrade-weapons).

Mintman · June 2003

Making the damage sustained by the HMG in CQB is not intuitive or realistic, the only method that would work and be intuitive is the slower turning as mentioned (ala a shouldered bazooka in DoD although not as drastic). It would not remove the alterative of JP-HMG but would make it a lot more risky as you wouldn't be able to fly up turn round and shoot that alien as easily.

Frikk · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jun 10 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here I am thinking of intuitive ways to do it and you come up with the obvious answer: change the damage it does up close. How easily would that be coded though? Would it be better to just decrease the damage close range than to have misses?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's um...a very bad way to code things, unless you made the miss ratio scale to distance. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>That's what I was thinking. But do you even have a target distance to base the equation in HL?

(for those who are wondering, I got tired of being left out of beta discussions... couldn't take it... must discuss.. heh)  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I think that would end up feeling very cheesy. The bullets should always do the same damage no matter how far away you are IMO. It's very anti-intuitive to do it that way.

This is a very good question, and a tough one at that.

Tyrain · June 2003

Why not decrease the ammo to 100? But increase the max ammo to 300. So it would be 400 ammo and more reloading. And then increase reloading time. Dunno. Just giving some input <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Wheeee · June 2003

Agreed, I think that HMGs are supposed to be heavy fire support, not a light tactical weapon. I'd like to see it set up on a tripod or something (mannable turrets!! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>) to fire, like today's machineguns. Although it supposedly has no recoil, I think an HMG would still be too heavy for a marine to swing around and aim it like it is right now.

matso · June 2003

Add in mass to weapons. If you swing the weapon violently, the weapons fire diverges from the aimpoint. The heavier the weapon, the longer for it to align with the aimpoint.

New concept though, so would take a fair bit of time to code.

Wheeee · June 2003

Seems to me that this thread is an S&I thread.

kingmob · June 2003

i would vote on the capped turning speed

similar to HWGuy in TFC
sure his gun is destruction but it takes awhile for him to turn around and hit ya

noelephant · June 2003

I think that shotguns are already pretty good late game. I have probably nailed more fades with shotguns than with HMG.

(GREAT agains redemption fades.)

PseudoKnight · June 2003

I think tripods would be too drastic.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Add in mass to weapons. If you swing the weapon violently, the weapons fire diverges from the aimpoint. The heavier the weapon, the longer for it to align with the aimpoint.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Making the HMG less accurate when moving it would make it more viable close range.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not decrease the ammo to 100? But increase the max ammo to 300. So it would be 400 ammo and more reloading. And then increase reloading time. Dunno. Just giving some input. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>There's no reason to believe this would make close-range less effective. Just seems like an overall nerf to the HMG.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seems to me that this thread is an S&I thread.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>I set it up as a discussion, not a suggestion.

Church · June 2003

Talesin, the reason why there are virtually no downsides to switching from lmg to hmg is because hmgs cost 25 res a piece. Now how would you like to for example...pay the 58 res as a fade, and then make it so your swipes do 10 damage, so if you weren't backed up by skulks you're dead? Think about it. If the hmg ost 15 res, then it would be fine to tone it down. it's expensive enough as is to justify to power it gives.

Wheeee · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jun 10 2003, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think tripods would be too drastic.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Add in mass to weapons. If you swing the weapon violently, the weapons fire diverges from the aimpoint. The heavier the weapon, the longer for it to align with the aimpoint.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Making the HMG less accurate when moving it would make it more viable close range.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not decrease the ammo to 100? But increase the max ammo to 300. So it would be 400 ammo and more reloading. And then increase reloading time. Dunno. Just giving some input. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>There's no reason to believe this would make close-range less effective. Just seems like an overall nerf to the HMG.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Not necessarily. If you put up a couple of HMG tripods in a hallway, anything that comes down it will be toast. Esp. with the smaller cone of fire in 1.1. The point is to have the HMG guys move around *with* the team, instead of running off by themselves to spawn camp or something.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

The HMG will most likely be cheaper in 1.1 as it is now in current beta builds.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not necessarily. If you put up a couple of HMG tripods in a hallway, anything that comes down it will be toast. Esp. with the smaller cone of fire in 1.1. The point is to have the HMG guys move around *with* the team, instead of running off by themselves to spawn camp or something. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Camping is what they'd be doing having a HMG w/ tripods.

Wheeee · June 2003

Camping to support a team push is different than rambo-ing and camping the spawn. Yes, you can camp a spawn with tripods, but then at least your whole team will be there and the aliens would probably be losing anyway.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

Actually, I'm starting to like the sound of the HMG having tripods with maybe even some more power. Strategic placement and support would be needed. (ie. more teamwork) This would also mean that the HMG wouldn't be simply an upgrade to the LMG. (ie. more diversity for gameplay)

This is how I see it:

Stand motionless and crouch to deploy. Takes about 3 seconds. Turning speed capped. (maybe turning radius capped?)

[edit]

Change that... More like 1-2 seconds to deploy. It makes it more effective offensively, which is where I'd like to see it.

This would turn it into a more defensive weapon. We have to think of consequences like spawn camping similar to nade spamming. Also, how effective would it be offensively with a tripod? What would be it's use offensively? I think that's where the idea is less appealing.

Supernorn · June 2003

I convinced the commander to perform a shotgun rush today, and I must say, its very effective. Shotguns are excellent as of now, because you really need to work together for the stragety to work well. Forced team-play is always enjoyable. i.e. While you are reloading to take a shot, your other marine buddys can be firing, making this a very powerfull assault. They also take down fades and skulks with excellent precision. Its just a shame that the main stragety right now is a HMG/JP rush, id really like to see a variation in strageties, and hopefully 1.1 will provide this. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Some_tall_guy · June 2003

I myself like the manable turret hmg idea, make it take up slot one and possibly two to enforce teamwork. slow down the carrier dramatically. give the hmg full ammo when given out but cant be refilled which would help eliminate spawn camping, as if the comm hands one out and the carrier decides to spawn camp, once he runs out of ammo its gone. make an upgrade that lets you put down 10 rp ammo for the hmg only, works just like the other kind, cept its the only thing that hands out hmg ammo, and can only be picked up by someone with an hmg. limit turning speed and the area it can turn without being set up again.

voogru · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Gyrojet HMG. (Not sure if HL supports this) Damage is proportional to the distance travelled, to a given point where it drops back down again. Making the bullets very weak in close, but powerful down a hallway.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I think something like that could be possible, Just somehow save the time when the bullet is fired, then when it impacts do damage like x * flTimeflown, x being any number Flayra could want.

Either that, Or do a traceline to the first object it sees (which is what bullets use I believe), then base damage on how far the object is.

Zeo · June 2003

So people, ask yourself: What do you hate more?

*Campers with tripod-HMGs

*Rambos with tripod-less HMGs

I'd say Rambos. If a marine is laying prone (which I assume would come standard with tripod weapons) then thats one less running around doin missions for the team. Just before running into a webbed up corridor, you as a marine can decide to take another route to your destination. Same situation with a prone marine, you as an alien can take another route possibly before he blows your head off, and yea you will be able to outrun his ****. Maybe this could be a lure tactic?

All I know is if the HMG is gonna be restricted to a tripod then it better pwn.
If it's gonna remain tripod-less <b>and</b> takes a performance hit, then naturally it should be cheaper.
If it was me I'd leave the damn thing alone. Stop nerfing <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

TickTock · June 2003

I like Talesin's first 3 ideas. Not the Gyrojet HMG though just because it's SO counter-intuitive. Maybe combine the "spin-up" with a mobility impairment while firing, so that if you are alone with an HMG and get surprise-attacked, you can't simply swing around and fire away as if the gun weighed nothing.

However you must design a system that is VERY hard to get around. HL supports mouse sensitivity tweaking, so setting up a script to work around a turn speed limitation would be easy. Muzzleflash sprites can be replaced really easily. File consistency will stop this, but then people can't use custom models, which I rather enjoy using sometimes. A spin-up can't be worked around without a full-fledged hack though, so it has that going for it. Perhaps a speed impairment like HWGuy.

The reason that one gun shouldn't be good at EVERYTHING is that once you can make the "god gun", suddenly your marines become cookiecutters because there is no question as to what is the best weapon. Keep variety, and it keeps the game more interesting. Even if that means making the HMG a little cheaper to produce.

edit: And if you're going to strap an HMG to a big ol' tripod, just make a new weapon, don't remove the HMG.

PseudoKnight · June 2003

Let's stay away from prone position please for a number of reasons. A crouched tripod is what I was talking about.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>HL supports mouse sensitivity tweaking, so setting up a script to work around a turn speed limitation would be easy. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>How is this prevented in DOD or TFC?

Wheeee · June 2003

Generally speaking, the tripod would just be the exact same thing as Talesin's "spin up before firing and stay motionless while firing" ideas...just with a different animation and models.

Talesin · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jun 10 2003, 11:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Talesin, the reason why there are virtually no downsides to switching from lmg to hmg is because hmgs cost 25 res a piece. Now how would you like to for example...pay the 58 res as a fade, and then make it so your swipes do 10 damage, so if you weren't backed up by skulks you're dead? Think about it. If the hmg ost 15 res, then it would be fine to tone it down. it's expensive enough as is to justify to power it gives.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The difference is, EVERY other Marine weapon has a different feel and method of operation. GL is obvious. Shotgun fires slower, but does more damage. The HMG for all intents and purposes is just a LMG with a bigger clip and twice the damage. It SHOULD have a down-side so that people may *prefer* to stick with their LMG. It'd make it a different weapon.

The flaw in your parallel is that a Fade (1) has a larger hitbox/hull by default (standing marine as opposed to always-crouching), (2) swipes at a different ROF, damage and range, (3) has distinctly different abilities compared to the Skulk. So a Fade is not simply an 'upgraded' Skulk, it's a markedly different evolution.

I'd go with the stationary-while-firing and spin-up time. It'd move it more to a support weapon, used to hold corridors, and provide a noticable down-side for rambos.. no more bouncing around. You *ARE* carrying a huge hunk of metal and the ammo to drive it, after all. Additionally, there is a difference between 'recoil' and 'kick'. Recoil tends to include barrel-climb, which IS countered by the double-barrel. Kick is the part that'll send you flying backward across the room. It's a basic law of inertia. Just have the 'spin up' time be the Marine bracing himself for the kick of the HMG. It takes a second or two.

POSSIBLY have an HMG Marine be able to fire instantly if crouched? The down side is that crouching is instant, and it'd have to be certain that they were not crouch-jumping as an exploit. Or delay the firing until they were solidly on the ground, start the spin-up time once they've stopped jumping around. This would have the added benefit of stopping JP/HMGers, who would have to land before they started firing (as thinking logically, if they fire that thing while midair, they should go sailing backward across the room as they pick up a good chunk of the remaining inertia from the gun).

How To Make Hmgs Bad At Close Range

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