The "1.0x Hive Based Evolutions" Thread
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Post discussions on this here</div> Seeing as in the latest 1.1 build Flayra reintroduced hive requirements for higher lifeforms, I wanted to get the community's views on this. Seeing as this probably would have been discussed anyway, I thought I'd start this thread up to keep it all organized <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
To begin with, I'll say that I just don't like it. One of the reasons I was looking forwards to 1.1 so much was that the aliens no longer faced the dreary prospect of 2 or even 1 hive lockdowns ending games prematurally. The fact is that even a 1 hive lockdown would be very harsh in the current 1.1 build, seeing as fades no longer have acid rockets. We all know fades go down very fast against concentrated firepower, and without the advantage of long range attacks fades I believe would have a very hard time taking out a turtled fortified hive that the marines were holding. Maybe a pt can confirm/deny this. The fact however that we have all experianced 2 hive lockdowns gives us an insight into just how hard they are to break.
As it stands in 1.04, marines are resource dependant. Aliens are dependant on resources AND 3 locations on the map where the hives are. These locations are the same every game and as such the marines will always know where these pivotal locations are. Yet the marines can simply abandon their start and move directly to a hive location: and without oni to break in depth marine defenses I fear for a re-run of 1.04 games in 1.1. Leaving alien life-forms undependant of hives gives the aliens the power to use their resources as opposed to having hundreds of res doing nothing. I've always believed that the game should be based around the control and use of resources, not the control and fortifying of one or two positions on a map.
The central issue however may be deeper than this, and that is the dominance of the onos. Since it was designed as a game ender, the onos has been hard to rebalance. From the reports of pts and vets this imbalance remains: oni still seem fully capable of devestating marine teams. The problem here may be simply that there is no direct marine counter for the onos. 2 HA/HMG/welder marines cost around 100 res to outfit, not to mention the upgrade costs. A single onos costs around the same plus evolutions. Yet in almost every situation the onos will come out on top when matched against an equal investment of resources. There would seem to be a few solutions, such as weakening the onos, boosting marine power, or giving the marines something new at the very top of their tech tree that would allow them to fight the onos on equal, or at least partially equal grounds.
To begin with, I'll say that I just don't like it. One of the reasons I was looking forwards to 1.1 so much was that the aliens no longer faced the dreary prospect of 2 or even 1 hive lockdowns ending games prematurally. The fact is that even a 1 hive lockdown would be very harsh in the current 1.1 build, seeing as fades no longer have acid rockets. We all know fades go down very fast against concentrated firepower, and without the advantage of long range attacks fades I believe would have a very hard time taking out a turtled fortified hive that the marines were holding. Maybe a pt can confirm/deny this. The fact however that we have all experianced 2 hive lockdowns gives us an insight into just how hard they are to break.
As it stands in 1.04, marines are resource dependant. Aliens are dependant on resources AND 3 locations on the map where the hives are. These locations are the same every game and as such the marines will always know where these pivotal locations are. Yet the marines can simply abandon their start and move directly to a hive location: and without oni to break in depth marine defenses I fear for a re-run of 1.04 games in 1.1. Leaving alien life-forms undependant of hives gives the aliens the power to use their resources as opposed to having hundreds of res doing nothing. I've always believed that the game should be based around the control and use of resources, not the control and fortifying of one or two positions on a map.
The central issue however may be deeper than this, and that is the dominance of the onos. Since it was designed as a game ender, the onos has been hard to rebalance. From the reports of pts and vets this imbalance remains: oni still seem fully capable of devestating marine teams. The problem here may be simply that there is no direct marine counter for the onos. 2 HA/HMG/welder marines cost around 100 res to outfit, not to mention the upgrade costs. A single onos costs around the same plus evolutions. Yet in almost every situation the onos will come out on top when matched against an equal investment of resources. There would seem to be a few solutions, such as weakening the onos, boosting marine power, or giving the marines something new at the very top of their tech tree that would allow them to fight the onos on equal, or at least partially equal grounds.
Comments
Also, everything you have to say about liking the no hive-based gestate level restriction is speculation. You don't really know which you like since you've never played it without the restrictions.
If you have hive dependance, Onos will be a game ender. If it won't be, then aliens don't have a game ender. Then aliens will lose.
I liked the idea of 1.1... A not game ender ONOS, but a strong fighter....
Consider also in your speculation that hives cost <b>considerably</b> cheaper.
I'm really afraid hive lockdowns again. The tactic could be used sometimes, but I don't think it should be viable, as it will be now.
No hive requirements (or, at least, only one hive for Fades, and only two hives for Onos)
Fades are still powerful.
Onos are still scary powerful.
However, both classes are weakened considerably the farther they get from a hive. More hives means that they can range farther distances without being weakened. This way, a team can save up for one or two Fades or even one Onos, but without controlling more hives, they can't rush the marine base right as soon as they appear: they can only effectively secure areas near the hives.
The WAY to gradually weaken them as they get farther and farther away bears some thought: movement speed slowdowns? Health slowly decreasing? Higher abilities going offline?
But it is, I think, an interesting alternative that keeps Onos in the game and makes Fades more possible earlier on without making them into immediate basesmashers.
How exactly was it NOT a game ender? Gore, paralyse charge and primal scream on a walking tank with stupid amounts of HP and armour. When you ever see on in 1.04 entire marine bases fall apart in a matter of seconds. The sheer strength and power of the onos was never balanced in 1.04 and it was never ment to be: 3 hives ment the marines had lost. Now even though oni abilities have been tweaked, they remain awesomely powerful due to thier massive HP and armour coupled with some very nice abilities. Changing them from "game ender" to "excellent but balanced unit" is proving rather hard.
Apparently, the Onos originally had infinite health and armour. That sounds like a game ender to me. :/
(According to Talesin, anyway. He posts it often enough in the Suggestion forum. (; )
I like most am unhappy with even the remote prospect of having fade/onos 2+ hive locked again.
Why not simply make them more expensive ? Or decrease their HP etc. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture here or something...but surely their must be another way to balance things.
You:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd like to make a correction: the Onos was not designed as a game ender.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Especially: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the Onos was not designed as a game ender<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Key part: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>was</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Summary: You said it WASN'T, as in from the beginning, a game ender. But as it was literally invincible(no hp or armor count, shooting it didn't matter), it very much WAS a game ender.
And I can safely say that it IS a game ender in 1.0x.
I said it wasn't "designed" as a game ender. Key word: designed. This is what I mean by comprehending my post before replying to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Summary: You said it WASN'T, as in from the beginning, a game ender.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is how you thought of it. You must have skipped the key word in your head when reading it.
I get the feeling I flamebaited you there, so let's quit discussing this please?
It may interest you to know that I misinterpreted a post today as well. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Snidely, I still believe Flayra's intention with the Onos for a release version was to have the Onos as an ultimate (highest level; ie. uber) but counterable Kharaa and that it was reflected in the design process.
Consider also in your speculation that hives cost <b>considerably</b> cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh a little harsh are we?
A little full of ourselves, are we?
the hives are considerably cheaper - but the gorge nolonger gets thrice the res of the other aliens...
(maybe even less, unless its an uber battle gorge)
the hives are considerably cheaper - but the gorge nolonger gets thrice the res of the other aliens...
(maybe even less, unless its an uber battle gorge) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, I almost forgot.
If res-for-kill wasn't there, hives would have to cost ~25 res, since it would otherwise take longer than 1.0x to get that res(80/3~=27), and that is pretty long already.
Now that we have res-for-kill, it's MUCH better to skulk until you have 45 res(15 is the cost for gorging, right?) than to sit around as a gorge, thanks to gorges not getting bigger shares.
Remember that when 1.1 is out.
I'm really afraid hive lockdowns again. The tactic could be used sometimes, but I don't think it should be viable, as it will be now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
uM.. RES FOR KILLS ANYONE?
Keep it at the 1.0x system so that hives are still important, but to break the lockdowns why not allow any evolution once you get to 100 res.
That way if the 'rines have a 2hive lockdown the kharaa can wait until they get 100 res then onos to break it.
It'd need a bit of balancing though.
I don't know how much else has changed in 1.1, but in 1.04 the entire game pretty much revolves around getting the second hive.
Edit: confused myself with acronyms <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Disabling marines to have 2 CC is better than doing such a thing. If they cant have 2 CC, they cant relocate.