Why Res For Kills On Both Sides Is Bad, (theory)
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">...a possible fix?</div> Remember, I've never played 1.1, but this is THEORY, and the examples are simple. I'll leave the vets and PT's to come up with complex conclusions.
So, here is the best summary of the problem of res for kills, posted by Khaim in the beta forums:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO Res for kills balances NS, however it also ruins the gameplay, as the team with higher skills in aim is much more adept to win than the team with ultimate teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, as posted by Flay in the beta forums:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Res for kills is working great in my mind, and that's staying in on both sides
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there you have it. I don't think this should be the case. There should be more incentive to act as a team, but at the same time, there should be a way to increase your total lv. of teamwork through skill. I would like to see that the res for kills is adjusted in same to do this.
(Onto the second part of my post, it's an idea, I know Ideas belong in the idea's forum, but it doesn't belong there either... this is more of a general topic item, my idea is here bacause I ABSOLUTLY HATE just criticizing an idea without offering a possible solution.)
But is it possible to get the best of both worlds? I believe it is, and with a simple method also.
My suggested solution for marines:
Make it so corpses must be clicked on by the commander, which will then turn get res for the marines. It's a small and simple change which can add so much for teamplay.
Think about it; a commander who must watch the marines who go out and kill in. Marines cannot simply run off and shoot down 2-3 skulks for his team; if everyone did this there is no way for the commander to keep track of all his marines who run around like hell. There would disorganization, and thus, the marine team who better uses teamwork will <b>definatly</b> fare off better than a team who does not.
If marines who stuck together in smaller groups, a good commander would most certainly be able to do something as simple click once on each alien corpse he sees. Even with marines who are split into two or three groups, the commander could just use his hotkeys to montor for corpses plus he can look at the killsprites to see if someone made a kill.
A good commander who makes good use of res for kills and doesn't miss an alien... now there's some real commander skill to add to the game.
I really believe that this would be an extreamlly viable solution for the marines when it comes to res for kills.
EDIT: Remember, in 1.1 the commander interface should be much easier to use, thus making it so my idea could possibly work.
For the aliens:
I think they should get res whenever they kill. It makes sense, they are the ramboing type of team and more individual.
Just to remind you all:
- Corpses are only seen by a commander if a marine on the field sees it.
- You cannot scan to see corpses. (I believe)
- Corpses last somewhere around 15-30 seconds.
Feedback would be very much appreciated. EDIT: And by feedback, I mean post some of your own ideas of your own if you don't like mine! This is discussion on the game, not of my idea itself per se.
So, here is the best summary of the problem of res for kills, posted by Khaim in the beta forums:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO Res for kills balances NS, however it also ruins the gameplay, as the team with higher skills in aim is much more adept to win than the team with ultimate teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, as posted by Flay in the beta forums:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Res for kills is working great in my mind, and that's staying in on both sides
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there you have it. I don't think this should be the case. There should be more incentive to act as a team, but at the same time, there should be a way to increase your total lv. of teamwork through skill. I would like to see that the res for kills is adjusted in same to do this.
(Onto the second part of my post, it's an idea, I know Ideas belong in the idea's forum, but it doesn't belong there either... this is more of a general topic item, my idea is here bacause I ABSOLUTLY HATE just criticizing an idea without offering a possible solution.)
But is it possible to get the best of both worlds? I believe it is, and with a simple method also.
My suggested solution for marines:
Make it so corpses must be clicked on by the commander, which will then turn get res for the marines. It's a small and simple change which can add so much for teamplay.
Think about it; a commander who must watch the marines who go out and kill in. Marines cannot simply run off and shoot down 2-3 skulks for his team; if everyone did this there is no way for the commander to keep track of all his marines who run around like hell. There would disorganization, and thus, the marine team who better uses teamwork will <b>definatly</b> fare off better than a team who does not.
If marines who stuck together in smaller groups, a good commander would most certainly be able to do something as simple click once on each alien corpse he sees. Even with marines who are split into two or three groups, the commander could just use his hotkeys to montor for corpses plus he can look at the killsprites to see if someone made a kill.
A good commander who makes good use of res for kills and doesn't miss an alien... now there's some real commander skill to add to the game.
I really believe that this would be an extreamlly viable solution for the marines when it comes to res for kills.
EDIT: Remember, in 1.1 the commander interface should be much easier to use, thus making it so my idea could possibly work.
For the aliens:
I think they should get res whenever they kill. It makes sense, they are the ramboing type of team and more individual.
Just to remind you all:
- Corpses are only seen by a commander if a marine on the field sees it.
- You cannot scan to see corpses. (I believe)
- Corpses last somewhere around 15-30 seconds.
Feedback would be very much appreciated. EDIT: And by feedback, I mean post some of your own ideas of your own if you don't like mine! This is discussion on the game, not of my idea itself per se.
Comments
Yes, I just got out of my finals. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But really... about the topic... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks!
system works .. res flow is slower and u will be thankfull for res for kills.
system works .. res flow is slower and u will be thankfull for res for kills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Res for kills isn't changed... it's just would take some more communacation and organization between you and the commander. If you for some reason lose all your nodes, then you can still kill your way through for some more, but not by running around the map as single suicide marines to rack up some res.
I do realize that in a clan setting, my idea may not change much, as teamwork is already used.
However, in a pub setting, I believe my idea would completely deter some ramboing POS marine team from pulling off a victory just because they got a lot of kills.
making commanders have to click on corpses would just be annoying.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35452' target='_blank'>Gee, funny you should say that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think the res for kills idea is brilliant, finnally it will reward highly skillled players. far to many people imo claim about the teamplay side and how it will wreck it blah blah, teamplay is great, but a game shouldnt be 100% on a team working together or loose, because lets face it thats never gonna happen on a public. The res for kills seems to make it that if you have a good player on your team his skills will be rewarded rather than mr.n00b who is only usefull for building things.
making commanders have to click on corpses would just be annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing I don't like about res for kills is that it rewards the team who kills more even more... which means that goes along the par of other games where it's all about kills.(CS, Quake, FA, to name .001% of these games.)
So if you want that type of atmosphere, why not just go play those games?
I thought teamwork is the main idea for marines...?
And if teamplay never happens in public, then what's the big deal? Both teams really need a lot of teamwork to be effective.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35452' target='_blank'>Gee, funny you should say that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bugs that will be fixed in the next release really hold no water in an arguement like this.
Try again?
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35452' target='_blank'>Gee, funny you should say that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a rounding error that will be fixed. Currently, due to the error, it takes 3 hits to take down a marine, where it's only supposed to take 2 (speaking lvl 0 armor). I was running under the impression, and posted with the impression that this was going to be fixed. I suppose I should have been more clear.
ONCE this gets fixed it will again, be pretty hard to rambo as a marine.
[EDIT: Dangit, McClane got it before I did.]
2) The Commander is already overwhelmed as it is. Requiring the Commander to do yet another tedious task is taking a step backwards from where the Commander interface needs to be. One of the best mods I've enjoyed as Commander is health/ammo in the phase gate. It cuts down on the time I spend needlessly babysitting Marines immensely. Requiring the Command to click on a corpse to claim it would only degrade the Commander experience even further, thus driving even more potential Commanders out of the chair.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35452' target='_blank'>Gee, funny you should say that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bugs that will be fixed in the next release really hold no water in an arguement like this.
Try again? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure.
Posted by Hida Tsuzua:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The biggest problem I have with res for kills deals with gorges and skulks. Skulks get owned by starting marines (the rounding bug just made this worst, but isn't the sole cause) and with marine pooling can easily lead to some rpage for the marines. Gorges the big spenders of the aliens either have to a.) go into battle with tissue paper armor or b.) pin in hives waiting for rp. Alien spread for kills would help out the gorges. Don't know what to do for skulks (balance marine vs skulks seem about right).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35203&st=15' target='_blank'>Found that here.</a>
2) The Commander is already overwhelmed as it is. Requiring the Commander to do yet another tedious task is taking a step backwards from where the Commander interface needs to be. One of the best mods I've enjoyed as Commander is health/ammo in the phase gate. It cuts down on the time I spend needlessly babysitting Marines immensely. Requiring the Command to click on a corpse to claim it would only degrade the Commander experience even further, thus driving even more potential Commanders out of the chair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.) Is that really true? If the marine can manage to get just two kills, he knows what he did was worth it. Like I said ealier, I thought marines were supposed to be about teamwork?
2.) The commander being overwhelmed is an issue of 1.04, due to a poor commander interface. In 1.1, it should become much more managable allowing for the comm to have more time to do extra stuff. I should specfy this in my main post, thank you for pointing this out.
Honestly, just b/c some PT thinks res for kills is bad isn't really much evidence. The game is incredibly balanced, and the better team wins almost every time.
Easy. If the marines are stronger than the skulks, this will promote ramboing, guarenteed. Simply because, the marine can kill at least 2 skulks, making it all the morth worthwhile for the team.
I'll grant that on clan play, ramboing isn't an issue. Because high levels of teamwork will be involved, this means each team cannot afford to rambo. However, on pub play, this will most certainly be a problem... As skill levels vary by a lot and no team will have any real sense of teamwork(in most cases) due to the fact that no one knows each other.
Res for kills is a good idea, but it's exploitable on pub play. I believe I've found a way to fix the exploitable parts of this new and good system.
Make it so corpses must be clicked on by the commander, which will then turn get res for the marines. It's a small and simple change which can add so much for teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell, I like it! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some ghost-like animation of the enemy rising into the nano-chambers in the ceiling, whenever the commander clicks a corpse would own.
Honestly, just b/c some PT thinks res for kills is bad isn't really much evidence. The game is incredibly balanced, and the better team wins almost every time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said that the game is balenced between skulks and vanilla marines, and I provided a clear counter viewpoint to your own.
Just because you think that this game is balenced isn't much evidence either, dispite the fact you are a playtester. Hida's word and yours are each just as valid.
And yes, the better team may win everytime (your oppinion again, but it seems resonable enough to believe), but, what if a marine team wins (in pub play) due to something as lame as ramboing? Does that mean the marine team is better because they can exploit what was meant to be a teamplay based game because they have '"elite"' skills? I don't believe so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, I like it!
Some ghost-like animation of the enemy rising into the nano-chambers in the ceiling, whenever the commander clicks a corpse would own.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, thanks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay.
Most (if not all) of the PT's dislike res for kills for the marines, esp. when it comes to skulks.
Said by Necro-:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think getting res for skulk kills should be really really low, or none. eg 0- 0.5. that way the gain is so little that you won't be inhibited to suicide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35203&st=15' target='_blank'>here.</a>
I mean, if they didn't, why would someone suggest something as drastic as this?
.5? 0? And <b>just</b> for skulks?
I'm not saying I know it all, but I am saying you don't either, and there are many contrasting viewpoints in this situation.
So basically, what I believe should be done is this:
Assume everyone is right. Some say ramboing is hard, other's say skulk hunting is too good and should go. So if everyone is right, how can we satisfy everyone(or as many as possible...?)?
Some say it's fine, so drastic changes are out of the question.
Others however don't like how it can be abused due to how a vanilla marine is stronger than a skulk. Or 2 vanilla marines vs. 2 skulks. And so on.
So rather than tweak how strong or weak the marine is, because according to some, it's already good, why not try to address the issue at hand, that is, the easy and cheap res marines get off of the weak skulks? It seems to me that if people couldn't benifit off of exploiting how weak skulks can be, then they can't help their team with the res, and therefore by allievating the problem.
It seems to me that the PT's want a skulk who can tango with a marine 1v1 and still have a good chance of winning, but not be punished for it.
I thought the idea was that marines who rambo are a no no. Why should they get to promote their team for it by <b>completely defeating the original purpose for the marines? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> </b>
Now, in clan play this may be a moot point in clan play because a god rambo is fighting god skulks - but in pickup, a god rambo will be fighting pub players, and thus can EXPECT to get a nice, fat ratio.
Thus, it SEEMS that ramboing will be FAR more profitable in 1.1 compared to in 1.04. Not only will the rambo push back the aliens into the hive, but he will also be earning a nice profit for the marines.
What HAS changed is the first 3-4 minutes of the game, where gorges were forced to sit and wait in a vent for enough res to trickle in while unupgraded, 9 hit dead-meat skulks desperately tries to make a difference .... it may be that cutting that time has decreased the window where a rambo can do his extreme ownage.
I don't know - but I do worry.
[1] the guys that can aim like they have an aimbot
2) The Commander is already overwhelmed as it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea.. I think a better idea would be to "+use"[1] an alien body to convert it to resources, taking 3-5 seconds per res to do so (and giving out a nice, loud sound - preferably with a bit of skulk-patter sound in it).
This has two advantages - it slows down the rambo a bit, as he has to convert the bodies (and the load sound makes him easy to find and surprise), but most importantly, he would have to WIN the whole fight to do so. Thus, if 2 skulks attack, he may be able to kill one, but he won't get any res unless he kills both.
[1] Would of course be even cooler if you brought out the "Standard marine organic nanite converter" (aka weapon slot 4) to do it ... but that's a lot more work.
that is stupid, Ramboing is not lame.
One thing that annoys me more than anything in NS is the amount of things that are 'lame'
* Jumping when a skulk bites you is 'lame'
* Being able to fire your pistol fast is 'lame'
* Jetpacks are 'lame'
* Turrets are 'lame'
i could go on and on with all the things ive heard people say are lame, more often than not, it is because some idiot would rather sit at the hive/spawn typing and moaning about what is lame rather than actually learn how to counter it.
how can you say a rambo on the team is lame? when i command i usually send 1-2 people to keep the aliens busy, i just say, oi player1 go and rambo them. Its YOUR problem if you see a marine 'rambo' off on his own, and you get killed by him, more likely your moaning because that marine is better than you, and your sick of getting killed by him, hence you want to insult him by calling him 'lame' rather than learn if you just waited for him around a corner or somewhere you could easily deal with him, unless that is you cant kill a marine 1v1 in a close quaters situation?
Really people need to grow up and stop moaning about 'lame' things. unless its an obvious bug exploit, its in the game to be used.
A game can have great gameplay, if teamwork is <b>rewarded</b>. It's not the commander who **** at you for not being a team player. It should be the game mechanics that reward teamwork.
Also, it's possible for a game to have great teamwork and scales well with skill, yet is newbie friendly. I envision this game to have multiple niches - each niche for a skill level range. All these niches will work together like an ecosystem.
Forlorn, your idea is interesting, but I think it might create a lot of conflict between the marines and the commander ("comm hurry fk up and fking clik aliens") and puts even more micro-ing burden on the commander.
If their scores are tie for the first 5 minutes, this means Alien players are more skilful than Marine players.
In most games, it is after 2 Hives when aliens are wining in kill/death score.
In other words, Mrines are "Fast Starter" and Aliens are "Slow Starter". That is how NS is balanced.
My concern about res for kill is that it may give "Fast Starter" a bigger advantgae.
And people really need to stop indirectly labelling they disagree with as immature kids. I'm not just being politically correct - it's damn annoying to be patronized...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that is stupid, Ramboing is not lame.
One thing that annoys me more than anything in NS is the amount of things that are 'lame'
* Jumping when a skulk bites you is 'lame'
* Being able to fire your pistol fast is 'lame'
* Jetpacks are 'lame'
* Turrets are 'lame'
i could go on and on with all the things ive heard people say are lame, more often than not, it is because some idiot would rather sit at the hive/spawn typing and moaning about what is lame rather than actually learn how to counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call rambo-ing lame, but bhopping sure is. I'd just say that rambo-ing should be discouraged. Individual skill should still matter, but like I said, the game should be accessable by all skill "levels."