Lmg Marine Vs. Skulk

Halik · June 2003

I cant reply to it in beta forum so ill place it in here.

Its obvious that skulk is weaker then LMG marine. Almost everytime he dies in combat coz he cant get into malee fight on big areas.

I have an idea to make special upgrade at armory for LMG. Like upgrading ammo for marines in starcraft. I would change lmg ROF or make bullets more armour piercing. Dont know but something that will make lmg better vs skulks only when aliens are at 3 dc's tech lever or sumthing. Marine rush and relocating would be harder to make when you need tu make an upgrade to kill skulks.
Upgrade could be at adv armory or weapons lab so itll be hard to make it on the game start before aliens get 3 dcs.

thx, Halik

MeLeNkO · June 2003

~Well no offence that is a cool idea but i think LMG vs skulk rule now as they are they dont need to be changed in my opneion

littlewild · June 2003

I think this belongs to the S&I. Please proceed there and get flamed.

You said that skulks are too weak and then propose an upgrade for the marines. Much sense indeed.

Halik · June 2003

I mean to make LMG at start (first spawned marines) much weaker against SKULK, less armous piercing or lower ROF and make an upgrade thwt will change settings of LMG to actual 1.04 ver. so skulks willhave some chances at start of the game.

Sure i would go to S&I but its a reply to beta forum topic <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Forlorn · June 2003

Just make it so if a skulk can back attack any marine, then the skulk deals 2x as much, resulting in one dead marine.

Ezekiel · June 2003

just be more cunning with your skulking. its not working in open places? so lay in wait somewhere and pounce. i reckon its what theyre meant to do anyway, unless youre in larger groups where you can rush around.

sk84zer0 · June 2003

I dont think they should make LMG weaker, if ur a good skulk like me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> u run along the walls so its hardy for the marines to keep track of ur position.(they both are equally good, just us the walls and their speed to your advantage)

Halik · June 2003

Equaly good marine and skulks, in mid-long range always marine will win :/ Good aim of a marine will make skulk eating dirt in just a sec... Its true that skulk shouldnt attack direct trough long distance at marine and just wait till marine come closer so skulk can fight malee but its hard to do it when marine is camping on reactor room or cargo at ns_tanith.

Second thing... When skulks are rushing i groups, min 4 skulks at a group they have some chances in fighting against marine but what when there are four marines? Target practice. "Chose your targets maggots! FIRE AT WILL!" tratatatatatata.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> ------------- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> = <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>. I can rush for aliens at start of the game and kill 6 skulks by range. Usualy 20-25 bullets of LMG for a skulk. Then i hear "Do you ever miss?" and its unfair for me :/

sk84zer0 · June 2003

lol

DoADrunkMonkey · June 2003

unfortunatly at the moment, mt really makes it very difficult for skulks to ambush marines, at least it gets a bit of a nerf in 1.1

marines are good at close combat like short corridors and corners and good in open areas, it all seems a bit marine biast.

also, most good siege points like cargo in tantih, is VERY open and wide and skulks just cant get anywhere near and rines can easilly tf and siege up.

Chopper_Dave1 · June 2003

Mr problems with the current system are thus:

1) A lone marine wandering around the map almsot always beats a lone skulk wandering around the map. Sometime way back when, I heard that marines were supposed to be moving in groups, while skulks were the ones who were supposed to be deathmatch-y. Not so. To be effective, aliens have to move in groups, while marines can wander around and rambo all they want because they both have better spawn rates and better weapons. I think if you don't have two LMG's trained on a skulk, he should be able to live long enough to get close and kill you.

2) As someone already said, motion tracking nerfs skulks further. Now they can barely move anywhere and set up ambushes without marines knowing exactly what's going on. Not too fair.

Basically, I think skulks should start off at about level 3 carapace efficiency, or the LMG's should be made less powerful. So that, unless you're REALLY lucky, it's going to take more than one clip of unupgraded LMG fire to take down a skulk. Or, aliens need to be given the spawn advantage (marines have it now). Or both. Either way, marines will be forced to move in groups early on to stay alive, and shotguns might actually become a worthy investment. Which, I think, would be a very good thing.

-CD

Maus · June 2003

Skulks have <i>plenty</i> of chance at the beginning of the game. You're not [i]supposed[/i[ to let the marines get you at long range - you're meant to be ambushing them, biting their legs off before they get a chance to react. Marines are meant to be able to tear skulks to shreds if marines see them at range, skulks are meant to tear marines apart if they don't. Skulks are lightly armoured but vicious to ecourage a quick takedown. The whole 1.0x business of using carapace to not have to play craftily (ie to be able to just charge marines in plain view) is bad, yo.

If anything I prefer early game skulking to early-game marine play precisely for this reason - setting up ambushes and trying to outwit marines is great fun.

Be sneaky, be deadly.

spitfirens_net · June 2003

I completely agree with Maus on this. I love going into Reactor Room on ns_tanith and creepin around when there are a few marines in there building. I'll parasite them, and slowly take them all down. What if you were a sulk? You wouldn't be running straight into a marine. You dont even want them to see you. The best feeling is when you completely own a marine because they dont get a shot off.

Besides, theres no rule that says aliens travel alone. The only 'rule' or rather, guideline I think is keep your marines in groups. Not that I care, I'll take those punks down no matter what!

Halik · June 2003

I love ninja-skulk type of playing. When you are hiden on the room cellings and jump right on some marines neck but now almost all of marines know exacly where shoot before being eated so skulk will almost allways taken out by range. For me skulk should be like alien in AvP. Lone hunter, nesting somewhere and waiting for his victim. Its almost like it in NS till you see some bunnyhopping marine, crouched and shooting at ypu just 11 bullets till you die. With LMG ROF its to fast. Skulk is more suprised then marine, it shouldnt be like that :>

p4l · June 2003

Motion tracking pwns skulks. Is it getting changed in 1.1 at all? I'd like to see it operate on 'blips' or whatever, like real radar. Every 3 seconds you might get a 'blip' of where the skulk is. That way it becomes more about knowing something is incoming, than knowing it's incoming and it went around the poll stopped for 1 second hopped over the table wall walked for a minute and stopped waiting on the upper left of the door <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

I really enjoy skulking but there are certain situations in which the marines seem unassailable to me. 1-2 marines can hold a tunnel from 2-4 skulks, so if marines are just trying to protect 1 area for a moment or two so there PG/TF can finish, it's hard for the skulks to be able to attack unless they can organize a ton of skulks on one route, and that takes time... time enough for that PG/TF to finish.

Speed_2_Dave · June 2003

If I recall correctly they've already dealt with this issue in 1.1. I don't remember how, exactly, but I think some of you will like it, some won't. And yeah, charging marines who know how to shoot is dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb. I always go for the ambush, and at least tag my prey (hey look, we have motion sensors too!)

Snidely · June 2003

The trouble arises when you <i>have</i> to charge a marine who knows how to shoot. You can't win a game by ambushes alone. Hopefully, cheaper lerking will help in that regard...

Dread · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jun 23 2003, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The trouble arises when you <i>have</i> to charge a marine who knows how to shoot. You can't win a game by ambushes alone. Hopefully, cheaper lerking will help in that regard...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's why Skulk is the first class and there are several stronger ones. Also Leap helps a lot in charging.

Though I believe that motion tracking really is Skulks biggest problem and should be heavily changed. Currently it feels a lot like Kharaa hive sight, and I think we are trying to embrace the diversity of Kharaa and Marine team.

Snidely · June 2003

Still, the stronger classes (except the lerk) will require a lot of resources. I doubt that skulks will still be the predominant species. You can't afford to give marines the map advantage, otherwise you'll pay for it when you're trying to take back territory.

Chopper_Dave1 · June 2003

At least give the skulks the spawn advantage. I could deal with their weakness a lot more if the marines didn't outspawn skulks 3 to 1 half the time.

spitfirens_net · June 2003

When I was watching the US vs Europe demos, Flay commented on how if you take out a building, the upgrades are gone until you rebuild the building again. Then the upgrades are back. Often I try to take out the Observatory so they dont get motion... but sometimes I wont be fast enough and they will have upgraded it.
I also like p4l's idea for motion tracking.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'd like to see it operate on 'blips' or whatever, like real radar.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'm sure we will all be pleased with 1.1's version of motion.

nojmaster · June 2003

I'd prefer marines to get a not-as-good shotgun as thier spawn weapon, and the comm has to buy them the LMG's, would balance things up nicely IMO.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nojmaster @ Jun 22 2003, 08:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd prefer marines to get a not-as-good shotgun as thier spawn weapon, and the comm has to buy them the LMG's, would balance things up nicely IMO.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Err... no it wouldn't.

A not as good shotgun would be well over 10 points of damage, resulting in skulk owange at the start. When skulks can only ambush, but the marines are all equipped with shotties, even crappy ones, the skulks will taste defeat and lots of bullets.

Marine rushing would be commonplace, and horrible imbalances would follow.

nojmaster · June 2003

Nah. It reduces that marine ability to camp the long corridors at the start. Remember the aliens are the defending force, the marines are coming in to clear them, so the rines should be encouraged to attack, and the skulks to ambush and wait for the prey. Simply lengthening the pump time would mean if you miss, you give the skulk an opening. With the LMG, the skulk gets no opening.

Deacon · June 2003

Like we discussed <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=34655' target='_blank'>over here</a>, this is largely a function of map design. Marines work best at range, skulks work best up close. Bright maps with large, empty rooms and long, open hallways favor marines. Dark maps with twisty passages and lots of clutter favor skulks.

IMO, the solution is to change the playing field, not the rules.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nojmaster @ Jun 22 2003, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nah. It reduces that marine ability to camp the long corridors at the start. Remember the aliens are the defending force, the marines are coming in to clear them, so the rines should be encouraged to attack, and the skulks to ambush and wait for the prey. Simply lengthening the pump time would mean if you miss, you give the skulk an opening. With the LMG, the skulk gets no opening.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
But the aliens can only defend at close range... and marines who can only attack at long range, abielt weaker than a regular shotty, but enough to give out pure owange to those poor skulks, and rushing would be the predominant strat.

archhaven · June 2003

Currently 1.1s is feeling better with lmg vs skulk but I think the knockback from bite should be removed. It makes it extremely difficult to kill a skilled 'dodger' as a skulk.

Frogg2 · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chopper Dave @ Jun 22 2003, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Basically, I think skulks should start off at about level 3 carapace efficiency, or the LMG's should be made less powerful. So that, unless you're REALLY lucky, it's going to take more than one clip of unupgraded LMG fire to take down a skulk.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
your proposing a skulk be able to take the same amount of dmg as a fade?

ZERG · June 2003

I think it is fine. The marine only have so many different "forms" to fight the aliens with. They have to be versatile since marines can only choose between so many different options. Faster alien spawning would be fine by me since a single LMG marine >> 2-3+ skulks.

Revren · June 2003

Personaly I don't really see a problem with the skulk vs. lmg marine at the moment. If your in a big area then flank and run to the tunnel you know their going to have to go through next. Just as long as your not predictable in where your attacking from the marine should go down.

The beef that I do agree on is motion tracking. As for the 3 second blips; it's a great idea!

Chopper_Dave1 · June 2003

Frog-

Right now you can kill an unupgraded skulk in about 15 shots. Maybe it should be more like 40 shots. That way, if you're a crack shot at short range, or have the long range advantage and time to aim, you can kill a skulk in a single clip. Or, if you have two players, you can take down a skulk in about the same time as a single player does now. Sounds fair to me...

Lmg Marine Vs. Skulk

Comments