Bring Back The Score Board

LuxLux Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9078Members
I was talking with smokedham last night, we agreed a big problem with 2.0 is the lack of a score board.

I know people have said it discourages team play and premotes personal skill, but seriously folks who would play cs (publicly) if you couldent see your kills? no one! I have been playing cs seince beta 5.4 and I thought it was getting worse and worse, but they never took out score, that would have made me quit instantly (as a pubber). I use cs as an example but most hl mods have score boards that reflect your kills and score as a team (this is for a reason). Do people still work as a team in pubs? yes, so much that I doubt that removing score board would even affect it. ture you might lose SOME TEAM PLAY, but in return you have the large number of people who will keep comming back to get better.

When some one new comes to ns, they wana get better. There is currently no way for them to measure them selves, they cant say 'omg i went 20-1 in a pub', instead they have no goal except helping their radom-pub-peers out, no way for personal achivement. True that their skill COULD SOMEDAY become high enough to join a clan, but that is probably not going to happen for a while, in the meantime they will probably get bored of ns and stop playing. I think less starting-out-players would have the motovation to form clans if there is no scoreboard.

True that we are tring to premote team play, but do you want people to have fun? seeing your kills and the other guy's kills and trying to beat him is fun, trying to get to the top, to be the best is fun and thats why alot of people play cs I think, it is the essense of competition, even with your self, that will help draw in hardcore players that will eventualy improve them selfs into clans which will take ns to the highest levels of competition (which can only be a good thing)

Thankfuly I am allready skilled at ns and so I can play in tourney mode where my kills are visible, I can improve and activley measure my progress. But if I was not I would at least like to know how many kills I have (and I did, everytime I play I find my self doing "status" in counsle). This might be a little exagerated for a starting out player, but remember most ns players are from other hl mods, cs, tfc, dod and likely have at least attempted to compete, the point is, stuff like this is going on in the back of people's minds.
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Comments

  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Yeah, I never got the big deal with it. Scoreboards are also a nice way for clan leaders to search out prospective members, a good way for commanders to know who to drop weapons to. I think people would figure out that better teamwork = more kills anyways.
  • UGLAndrewUGLAndrew Join Date: 2003-04-25 Member: 15823Members
    edited July 2003
    You can just use 'status' in console and check under frags to see how many frags you have gotten, no need for score board. Well that's what i do, i don't really mind of other peoples score only my own, so status works fine with me.

    Also to what you just said hambone about dropping weapons and other sorts of stuff to other players, the times i go and be a commander, i don't even look at the score board (when we played 1.04), i just look at who was getting the most kills, and remember who they are, and once i had the money i'd tell him to get to base, and drop it to him. But for people with short term memory, i suppose the score board would come in handy :/
  • N1ghtN1ght Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15301Members
    personally i'd like to see a scoreboard, especially now skulk v marine is a lot more even.
  • barmanbarman Join Date: 2003-05-21 Member: 16558Members
    I'd have to agree on this.

    Scoreboards do add a new level of fun to the game
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited July 2003
    Honestly, I don't see how this is a 2.0-specific issue, so I hope none of you objects when I <span style='color:white'>move</span> this into General; the other members have just as much a right to voice their opinion on the scoreboard, as it's not directely affected by other changes that could touch the validity of their notion.

    [edit]A short summary of my personal opinion: Natural Selection is in no way comparable to a deathmatch styled game. Using the scoring scheme of such one is thus unproductive at best and misleading at worst. If there was a scoreboard, it would have to take all important factors - from personal shooting skill (which is not measured precisely by frags, either) to teamwork and coordination - into account. Until such a method is found, no scoreboard is the preferrable solution.[/edit]
  • Crazy_MonkeyCrazy_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8453Members
    I posted this while this topic was in Beta Discussion, but as it was moved I can move my post here.

    "He's (referring to Lux) stating that scoreboard does not effect teamplay negatively. I will not rant, flame, or assume. Just state my personal experience.

    As aliens, my favorite side, they currently have a scoreboard in 1.04. Normally, as we are short a NS server for our clan at the time, I'll be pubbing around, and as the game is progressing I usually stay on top of the team with a score ratio of 2:1 or 3:1. Even when I'm playing in clan matches, I'm usually on top with a 1:1 score. I hesitate to throw myself at a TF or a phase to stop marine progression, merely on the point of my score. I'm a seasoned "halloween" clan player, and time after time, I'll stop stutter or hold up something just because of my freaking score.

    I'm all for removing K-D scores, why not replace it with something useful? It's not a DM type game, so deaths don't matter. And if deaths don't matter, neither do kills.

    So, if you can make heads or tails of that post, that's my stance. Remove kills and deaths from the scoreboard. "
  • LoTechLoTech Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4917Members, Constellation
    For completeness without completely copying my reply in the other thread...

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=37872' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=37872</a>
  • MonKeyTurDMonKeyTurD Join Date: 2003-01-10 Member: 12129Members
    score would be a nice idea, if they did something with it, like they do in enemy territory, giving people experiance for doing things, but in NS's case frags

    i dunno how it would work, but i quite like the way ET does it and i reckon that system could be adapted nicely
  • sTrYkErsTrYkEr Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15280Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was talking with smokedham last night, we agreed a big problem with 2.0 is the lack of a score board. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    theres biggers issues than scoreboards
  • ThinGThinG Lord of wub and vlaai Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15400Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Tbh, I can make arguments <i>for</i> the scoreboard and arguments <i>against</i>

    In the end I say:

    Make it an "option" for server-owners.

    If you want a teamplay friendly pub, turn scoreboard off
    If you want the scoreboard, leave it on

    This may be a dumb idea if you can already do it, but my opinion is to just leave it up to the servers

    Cheers
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--ThinG+Jul 10 2003, 06:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThinG @ Jul 10 2003, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Make it an "option" for server-owners. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is rapidly becoming the favorite solution to controversial issues, it seems...
  • LuxLux Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9078Members
    leaving it to server ops is probably a better idea then us deciding either way. hopefuly some one will adapt stats programs for ns like they have for cs that logs not just who you kill but what you kill, not like statsme, but one that phrases to web pages
  • AaronAaron vroom vroom der party startah Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7020Members
    Weren't team "goals" going to be added to score, so that it wasn't all deathmatch/rambo? like, enemy structures destroyed, things built, waypoints reached, stuff like that? I know other mods add strategic aspects to score (e..g DoD). That would give people a number they could compare themselves by, but not influence them to just rambo or score-hog.
  • FrikkFrikk Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3164Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--ThinG+Jul 10 2003, 06:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThinG @ Jul 10 2003, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Make it an "option" for server-owners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is rapidly becoming the favorite solution to controversial issues, it seems... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's because it's the most convienent way of making a compromise.

    I can't honestly say I care either way. As Stryker said, there's more important things to worry about. "status" is enough for me if I really want to know.
  • ComproxComprox *chortle* Canada Join Date: 2002-01-23 Member: 7Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Killing is important in NS, but moreso is following orders. If I command, and order a group of marines to a hive, and some guy goes off and rambos, kills a few guys and then dies, he's useless to me, but his score is now 6-1... and that shows how his skill has improved how?

    And as a server side option, like Nem said, a lot of stuff could be server side. But setting up a server would take an hour then, and it would create more a rift in servers "this server sucks, it doesnt have scores", which isnt good for a community IMO.
  • SemperFi1SemperFi1 Join Date: 2003-02-14 Member: 13559Members
    You could always show the scoreboard at the end of the game.

    Either way i dont really care, i play NS for my team and for fun. Not my K:D
  • ZunniZunni The best thing to happen to I&amp;S in a long while Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10016Members
    Well, a few comments..

    1) If you are looking at the kills/death meter to find clanmates, then you are missing out on other important factors, like the guy who throws himself at a marine outpost 5-6 times and takes it down, or the guy who has chomped 3 enemy RT's.. and as other people have mentioned it's the little things that matter way more than the number of kills you have..

    2) More teamwork doesn't necessarily mean more kills.. ESPECIALLY for you as an individual... 3 marines open fire, all 3 don't get the kills.. only one does.. Yes, you live longer and the chance for you to gain more kills since you stay alive longer but again you may not get ANY of the kills.. and then you wouldn't get invited to the really "elite" clans because you don't have the kill totals...

    3) To decide who to give weapons to, as comm.. You see the entire board and know which groups of players have done the work and who deserve the weapons... I've guarded base for tonnes of teams and the fact that I did helped my team win.. The comms always offer me first weapons (I'm there and my job has been boring), and I always refuse.. Why?? Because the marines in the field have seen the danger and faced the enemy... I've killed 3 skulks in a pretty controlled environment (I have a solid wall at my back)

    4) Scoreboards promote ramboing.. The "How can I be good if I don't have the highest number of kills" mentality is common especially for new players... How can you judge if you did good?? Did your team win?? If not, then it doesn't matter how good you were.. Your team didn't win..
    Do you think any baseball player cares they went 4 for 4 if their team loses game 7 of the world series by 6 runs?? Of course not.. They only care that their team LOST...

    Anyway time doesn't allow for more typing now.. Must get work done... GAH!!!!

    my 2 cents
  • TheWizardTheWizard Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10553Members, Constellation
    I never liked scores in NS. Does it really matter if you go 30 - 1 if your team loses?
  • obuhobuh Not Quite Smart at NS Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15072Members, Constellation
    IMO, a good solution would be to remove the scores from the scoreboard but keep the players sorted by kills, and have an option like 'cl_showscore 1' or wathever to display your personal score on your HUD.
  • DriftwoodDriftwood Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8245Members
    In my opinion scoreboard comes down to this: people like the personal competition.

    I know I wouldn't enjoy NS public as much if there wasn't an aspect of personal competition in it in the form of scores. If a person isn't clever enough to understand that scores are not a good measure of one's skill, he won't understand what is, even without the scores visible. Personally, I tend to view scores as a fun byproduct of each match. In addition to myself knowing how the match played out and how I did in terms of being useful to my team, I can check out how I did in terms of pure fighting skill, which is, whether you like it or not, a very large part of NS. Being the meanest fighter of the match is satisfying and like Lux pointed out, one of the things that keeps new players coming back and getting better. If they are clever, they will focus their attention on the things that really matter as they learn the game better, but until then, the only thing they can immediately grasp is the scoreboard.

    I don't think NS is overly newbie friendly as it is. No visible scores is one thing that doesn't really help that particular matter. Scores are something people have come to expect from a FPS and even if the game is a FPS/RTS hybrid, they will first be puzzled of why there are no scores.
  • mATTHEW_KELLYmATTHEW_KELLY Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16642Members
    If you're fed up of typing in /status gimme a hell yeah.

    If NS is too complex for a simple kills/deaths scoreboard then make a more complex one.

    Seriously - there is a reason the scoreboard is a mainstay of virtually all other online shoot em ups.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    If scoreboard is going back in, it better count building kills as well. What is more important, a skulk that takes down 4 res nodes or 4 la/lmgs?

    Besides, Nem has a really good point. There are too many different factors in NS to rank players solely on their kill/death ratio.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited July 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--mATTHEW KELLY+Jul 10 2003, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mATTHEW KELLY @ Jul 10 2003, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriously - there is a reason the scoreboard is a mainstay of virtually all other online shoot em ups. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There is no weaker argument than 'Everyone else does it, too!'.
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    I reckon that instead of a "Deaths" column, you should have a "Time Played" column. Basically, if someone was so inclined, they could make a rough estimate of your skill level without having to watch you. It's just a bit of fun. If you don't care about scores, just don't hit tab.
  • AaronAaron vroom vroom der party startah Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7020Members
    Meh, I saw no problem with hiding scores for marines and showing them for aliens...
  • eggmaceggmac Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Comprox+Jul 10 2003, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comprox @ Jul 10 2003, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Killing is important in NS, but moreso is following orders. If I command, and order a group of marines to a hive, and some guy goes off and rambos, kills a few guys and then dies, he's useless to me, but his score is now 6-1... and that shows how his skill has improved how?

    And as a server side option, like Nem said, a lot of stuff could be server side. But setting up a server would take an hour then, and it would create more a rift in servers "this server sucks, it doesnt have scores", which isnt good for a community IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh he might have been greatly useful, actually. He gave you 6-18 res and if you got the hive locked with the rest of your marines, then he provided you the possibility to build extra 1-3 sentry towers. Moreover, he distracted the alien team so that the rest could build safely and he brought 6 aliens into the spawn que which is a great advantage.

    With the addition of res-for-kills gameplay has been significantly changed, teamplay wise. I don't see any problem with the introduction of a scoreboard again, I doubt there will be any more rambos than there are now already.
  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Zunni+Jul 10 2003, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jul 10 2003, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) If you are looking at the kills/death meter to find clanmates, then you are missing out on other important factors, like the guy who throws himself at a marine outpost 5-6 times and takes it down, or the guy who has chomped 3 enemy RT's.. and as other people have mentioned it's the little things that matter way more than the number of kills you have..

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry to say but I dont think most clans starting out are looking for the guy who throws himself at the marine outpost, they want someone who can kick some a**.

    I still believe that the scoreboard would work out to better teamwork. And people should realize that if a rambo is actually good then he does contribute quite a bit to the team. A marine who's 8-1 has earned your team 24 res and only given the opponents 3, not to mention hes probably taken a good position for your team.
  • bigbadbunnybigbadbunny Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7142Members
    i think the scoreboard is very important (not the scores !!!)

    its important 4 me 2 know , which people are dead ,
    so i know where the enemys are or if any marines are spawning back ....
  • eggmaceggmac Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
    erm, you still see who's dead and which ping you have etc. You just don't see the K/D
  • MajinMajin Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16829Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Lux+Jul 10 2003, 12:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lux @ Jul 10 2003, 12:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but seriously folks who would play cs (publicly) if you couldent see your kills? no one! I have been playing cs seince beta 5.4 and I thought it was getting worse and worse, but they never took out score, that would have made me quit instantly <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How could you even use CS as a comparason, if you for a second think that the game play in NS and the gameplay in CS is even close to similar, I will be floored! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I know that you were just quoting CS to show that the SBs play a purpose in the game play.

    If we had any kind of score board in NS, I think it should be Team based, and not player based. If the team kills a combined 89 Kharaa but dies 36 times combined, the Average should be the score, what ever team has the best average is the team that is playing better. It would have nothing at all to do with who wins the map, just show what team has the more skilled players as per kills to Deaths.

    This game is too team based to worry about whos playing well, if you need to know whos playing well, just watch the upper right coner of your screen if you keep seeing 1 persons name as the killer, chances are, hes got skills!

    I am happy they are taking away the score board, I don't think its needed and it only adds a CS feel to the game. CS is (IMO) the biggest POS ever to be released. There are games that have all the stuff CS has and non of the bad stuff! The Score Board in CS is the roote of the games lameness. Everyone trying to get the best score, trying to be the best killer, the only team work in CS is the fact that there are two teams... thats it!
    NS is all about team work, even the kharaa need to work in teams to win, no single Kharaa can win the game for his team, no single Marine can win for his team. In CS you can see that one skilled (most likely cheating) player rack up 9 kills in 1 round and focus on getting the kills and not the misson objectives!

    NS doesn't need a Score Board and I for one am glad its gone in 2.0! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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