Aliens Can Not Win On Big Size Games

godzilla21godzilla21 Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17022Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How is this fixed in 2.0?</div> It is almost impossible for aliens to win when team size is bigger than 10. On a game like 11vs11, I have rarely seen aliens win.
The are some factors why aliens can not win in a big size game.

1. Spawn Problem
Marines can have as many spawns as they like. This gives marines huge spawn advantage. Even more, marines have distress beacon.
When team size is big, it is not unusual that alien players are dead in more than half of the game time.
That is why marines can lock down 2 Hives easily without being annoyed by skulk attacks.

2. Resoruce Problem
The res that one alien gets is small when team size is big. When I was playing as an only Gorge on a 11vs11 game, what I could do before marines have jetpack was to build 1 res tower and 2 def chambers.

3. Gun is stronger than bite
This is a simple fact that no one can deny.

I believed Spawn problem be fixed by new move cham but acording to newest 2.0w information, move cham no longer gives faster spwan of a Hive.

Can anyone explain to me how this "team size problem" is fixed in 2.0 ?
«1

Comments

  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    1) the entire team shouldnt be running in getting themselves all killed. That CLEARLY hurts the team and as such s a bad thing to do. I would call that stupidity.

    2) res system is changed as you obviously know.

    3) learn to dodge? its not that hard. Besides their are other alien lifeforms besides bite.

    overall, just wait up 2 weeks for 2.0. It's coming and you will get to see it first hand. Weither you are told now that it is fine or that is worse doesnt matter since you will still play it anyway. Hold your horses and wait to find out yourself. The game has overall changed to much to give simplistic comparisons such as this. 2.0 is a different game in many ways. Don't assume 1.04 carries over to 2.0
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    We'll just have to wait and see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MausMaus Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5599Members
    If it's still a problem in 2.0, then maybe the team handicap (from 2.0 tournament mode) could be enabled for public play - that way it would no doubt be rather easy to make a plugin that altered the hanicap dynamically in-game, depending on the number of players on each team.
  • esunaesuna Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--godzilla21+Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (godzilla21 @ Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. Gun is stronger than bite
    This is a simple fact that no one can deny. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes and no. The LMG from a distance will totally pwn a Skulk, same with the pistol. But if you let a Skulk anywhere near you, you're dead, 3 bites to a stock marine and he's down. Charging a long corridor as a Skulk expecting to get near to even a stock marine is not a sensible nor easy thing to do, nine times out of ten you will die.

    If you believe that the LMG is more powerful than a Skulk's bite, you're greatly mistaken, you just have to know how to use it.
  • LoveDaddyLoveDaddy Join Date: 2003-03-19 Member: 14682Members
    After all the lovely lubly sun here in blighty i propose a new alien weapon, the sun burn gun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    creature with it can bath the marines in a lovely sunny glow....little do they relise fter a few secons they will soon turn bright pink...

    Marines will have to go back to base to compair their "tans" and apply after sun, if marines lean against walls, tables or doors they will stick to them, only to peal off them with an ouch sound.

    aliens could also have an upgrade "hand slap" "should that be claw? or hoof? where they can leave stinging hand marks on the back of aliens for bonus points.

    NS :- Summer holliday(vacation for you yanks) could be comming soon.
  • godzilla21godzilla21 Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17022Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--::esuna::+Jul 14 2003, 10:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (::esuna:: @ Jul 14 2003, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--godzilla21+Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (godzilla21 @ Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. Gun is stronger than bite
    This is a simple fact that no one can deny. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes and no.

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Off course Gun is not always stronger than Bite.
    What I mean is "in general".
    Saying just about the frag, players of same skills will have a better frag when they are marines.
  • JaspJasp Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13076Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) learn to dodge? its not that hard. Besides their are other alien lifeforms besides bite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    WOOTTT bite is an alien lifeform never knew that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    It's a well known fact that NS 1.0x favors Marines on larger games. The bigger, the more unbalanced. This is one of the biggest points that will be fixed in 2.0. This has been debated and agreed upon a long time ago so I don't see the point of bringing it up again to be honest.
  • ThinGThinG Lord of wub and vlaai Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15400Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Excuse me but... YAWN!

    My oh my, come on, I'll admit that a decently organised marine team will have slightly better odds in bigger games, but that's not the point!

    The only thing that matters, the only thing that can really win you games is:

    <b>TEAMWORK</b>

    Anyone who fails to see that has obviously never came back from a very long game, where they lost hives, gained them, made the rines relocate, fought to the bitter end, and managed to win!

    If you can't win, don't blame the game, change your approach! We all say we *know* that skulks in a group are stronger, but how many of us really do that in the early game, huh? On most pubs just a very few people actually do.

    Trust me, both teams can always win, it depends on the team as a whole, not on individual skills or the fact that you have jaws and teeth instead of an lmg.

    Cheers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • FaT_CaMFaT_CaM Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15394Members
    Well i've never played bigger than a 9vs9 game so I aint complaining!
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Find a server where such huge games can't happen?

    Just a thought, but server admins shouldn't really be running server limits over 20 given the current state of the game.

    Now then, come 2.0 and we'll all be trying to run 2 servers on our machines (and hopefully suceeding too) and we'll not see such large player counts (predicts mystic roob)

    Roo
  • ZERGZERG Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13132Members, Constellation
    It is soooo easy to win as a marine in a large server. It's the resource system. Marine simply can tech faster and spend more than aliens can. 2 RTs is all that's really needed for a victory anymore is overkill! You can shout all you want about aliens should use more teamwork, but the resource system is something they can't control.
  • sk84zer0sk84zer0 Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17478Members
    edited July 2003
    I agree with ThinG, ive won plenty of times on a server with 11vs11 while playing as aliens. All you need is Teamwork like ThinG said.
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    I don't think that is the point though, Of course you *can* win as Alien in a 12vs12 situation, it's just going to be about a hundred times harder then in a 6vs6 due to spawn rate and the resource model.
  • UGLAndrewUGLAndrew Join Date: 2003-04-25 Member: 15823Members
    Well i wouldn't really worry, because once 2.0 comes out, you'll have to relearn, and change all your views on almost.. everything <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (not all, but enough of the stuff) even the dreaded tfac in base ! DOO DOO DOOOO!
  • DroopyDaDogDroopyDaDog Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17479Members
    edited July 2003
    Heh, yea, in bigger games (9+ each team), the balance shifts towards marines, with resource scalling, when you start ticking 2 res per tower and not 1 res is pretty much the big turning point, that extra res goes to making growth about the same for aliens as in a mid sized game (faster once all the skulks max res, but that is a long time 9x40ish *cara costs* so you're waiting for verging on 400 res before the growth balances out) but double growth for marines, and also in big games with more deaths, aliens start loosing 2 res per death after a while, where as if the com doesn't med it's free for his marines untill a later when you get the big guns out (litterally)

    The spawn is another thing, and the guy who said your team shouldn't go around getting killed, on bigger games there are more deaths per minute, and probably more than proportionatly (it's harder to go around anywhere without running into an enemy) whilst marines can drop a 2nd ip relatively cheaply aliens can't and can lead to early inbalance. Not a big factor as far as I can tell, but it's not down to a simply crap team if that happens.

    So yea, aliens loose big games more often, duh, marines are more likely to loose small games, simply NS is balanced for 5-8 players a team, join a game with differant numbers of players then balance it out with better playters on the disadvantaged team
  • MajinMajin Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16829Members, Constellation
    Thing is a H4x()r so his opinion means nothing, He killed me again and again, on Roob's; he must have been using a Hack! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Large Games can be balanced depending on the teams skill and Co-oP level.
    It doesn't matter how many Marines you have on a team, if you have 6 Onos comming after your base with 2 Lerks and 4 Fades all working together like they should, 12 marines and the Turrets wont stand a chance.

    Just as, if half the Aliens are Gorges putting up OCs a team of HA/HMGs will smoke them in no time!

    As for the IP advantage and the Desstress becon, more Hives may not allow you to spawn faster (or do they?) but they give you more points to respawn at, so the marines need to spread out to get you. This can be an advantage to the Kharaa because an unorganized team would split up instead of moving from Hive to Hive as a team. The Desstress Beacon, only needs to be used when your being Owned, if you have to use it, it means your team is losing men really quickly!

    I have played games where 1 hive was locked down and it took an hour for the aliens to finish us off, but all they needed to do was rush, something they weren't doing!

    Balance depends alot on the skills of the players, if they work together, they can and WILL win the game.

    WTH does it all really matter, 2.0 is 17 days away!
  • KalmahKalmah Join Date: 2003-02-28 Member: 14143Members
    Don't worry. As of right now, Aliens win almost every game regardless of team size. That should fix the problem of aliens not winning on big games
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    edited July 2003
    The problem with larger games is spawn rate, since marines can have 4 ip's and vastly outspawn the aliens even if they have 2 hives (apart from the resouce model being poorly designed for large games).

    Although IIRC only 2 marines can be 'rein' at once, having more ip's reduces the amount of time for another marine to enter the spawn queue.
  • OneEyedOneEyed Join Date: 2003-03-14 Member: 14493Members
    WTH does the resource model have to do with anything?!
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    Marines get lots more res in larger games, and as almost all of their upgrades affect all marines, it makes arms lab upgrades extremely effective, and you have so many res that it is normal in 20-person games to build 2 arms labs and upgrades 1 for weapons and 1 for armour simultaneously.

    For the aliens, tech rate is coupled to hives rather than res, and the rate at which any one gorge gains resouces remains unchanged with more players until skulks start to max out on res.
  • JoltGrisJoltGris Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11143Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--godzilla21+Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (godzilla21 @ Jul 14 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. Gun is stronger than bite
    This is a simple fact that no one can deny. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Uhhmm... skulks can climb walls, are small, run fast, easy too hide, can run in vents :S
  • napinapi Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14172Members, Constellation
    it doesn't matter how good the skulk is... if the marine is a good shot he will win every time.

    you could be the best skulk in the world, but that's useless until you get close enough to actually bite the marine
  • AvengingBobAvengingBob Join Date: 2003-06-30 Member: 17822Members
    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
    It is perfectly possible for aliens to win on big games as long as they have half a brain about deployment.
    What occurs to me is that since the res model is so awful for the aliens, they should spend a lot of time securing res nodes, instead of screwing around rushing and making WoLs. If they concentrate on a Res grab, and then fight efficiently, they should have no problem hitting rines on a regular baisis.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Oh btw in playtesting right now vanilla skulks (a.k.a no upgrades skulk) are matching marines in terms of kills I hear. Or in some cases the marines are just getting slaughtered by skulks with no upgrades. SKulks now start with 85 health and 25 armor. Lotsa bullets to kill...kinda like starting with level 1 or 2 carapace. Plus, marines can't jump around like mad anymore, plus I THINK (i could be wrong) that skulk bites no longer push marines back. All of this combined=skulk ownage.
  • WodinWodin Join Date: 2003-06-09 Member: 17138Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--shanks+Jul 14 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Jul 14 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it doesn't matter how good the skulk is... if the marine is a good shot he will win every time.

    you could be the best skulk in the world, but that's useless until you get close enough to actually bite the marine<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The best skulks in the world simply don't get shot at. Stealth rules all...until motion tracking goes up.
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    edited July 2003
    According to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=37031' target='_blank'>this post</a>, it isn't fixed at all in 1.1/2.0:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure everyone is familar with the dramatic effect the teamsizes have on resources in 1.04. Nowadays in refined clanplay just 1 less player or 1 more player than the standard 6v6 size can completely turn the game on its head.

    Well, the above still applies to 1.1. If you have an abnormally small or abnormally large number of players, the resource system will be completely out of whack. Be wary of drawing conclusions from marine or alien wins in anything other than the standard 6v6 teamsize. If you play all day with a new balance change and see nothing but marine wins, do take note of the teamsizes because 11v11 isnt even a contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • UNKNOWN16UNKNOWN16 Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15708Members
    on the 26 player servers marines would win close to 100% of the time.

    13 marines rushing alien spawn = gg aliens

    need to remember when designing for public play design it as if every player is a totaly dumb **** with no clue whats so ever.

    it's Public u can't go ooo they should have team work, it's public there won't be.
    they should learn how to dodge, not every one is good / smart enough to do that.
    use brains and out smart aliens, not every one has those.

    i would really like to see a group of average players test 2.0 to see how it would work in a public enviroment.
  • boobs!boobs! Old-School Competitor Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8504Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--UNKNOWN16+Jul 14 2003, 06:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UNKNOWN16 @ Jul 14 2003, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> on the 26 player servers marines would win close to 100% of the time.

    13 marines rushing alien spawn = gg aliens

    need to remember when designing for public play design it as if every player is a totaly dumb **** with no clue whats so ever.

    it's Public u can't go ooo they should have team work, it's public there won't be.
    they should learn how to dodge, not every one is good / smart enough to do that.
    use brains and out smart aliens, not every one has those.

    i would really like to see a group of average players test 2.0 to see how it would work in a public enviroment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    you think all the testers are elite mo fos (well they are now, but i know a few that werent) they all started out as average schmoes.

    marines can no longer spawn camp a hive (unless its the whole marine team with shotguns, and even then its hard)

    beleive you me, 2.0 is a totally different game, in a much better way.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    I'm I a l337 mofo boobs ?

    :D

    I suppose you're talking about the Vets. Although, sometimes I can hold my own against them.

    :P
Sign In or Register to comment.