<!--QuoteBegin--Dubbz+Jul 19 2003, 03:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbz @ Jul 19 2003, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont know if you have noticed..but a knife is only functional with an arm. An arm is longer than a bite range (see if u can bite someone before they punch u in the face). You see where I'm going here. Use common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet my experience STILL is that bite has more range than knife.
I remember awhile ago on the h20 server. Our commander made all of us use knives only or he kicked us. I think his name was lego. Anyway, we won that game. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Tho the aliens were somewhat crippled from the start.
Bite damage = 75 per second (I believe it to be less than a second, but for arguments sake....)
Knife damage = 46.14 per second, if indeed it swings every .65 second.
What the hell are you talking about, knife kills faster than bite?
The skulk is vastly superior to the marine in every aspect of melee combat.
"If you ask me I say nerf the knife anyhow, knife should be a weapon of last resort, not some weapon that rivals the competetor's weapon. Seriously, if the knife stays the way it is then by this logic skulks should get a backup weapon that rivals the LMG. "
If you ask me, however, I say upgrade the knife into a two handed sword with a base damage of 150 (triple damage to structures) and a five foot range. Marines would be able to swing the sword once every 1.2 seconds. Those umbraed fades wont even know what hit em....
(for those with no sense of humor, I was being sarcastic... even though swords would be cool in NS <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont know if you have noticed..but a knife is only functional with an arm. An arm is longer than a bite range (see if u can bite someone before they punch u in the face). You see where I'm going here. Use common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should use common sense. All the marine's weaponry is longer ranged than nearly all alien weaponry. I don't care if it's "realistic". Very few things about NS is "realisitic". This is a gameplay issue, not a realism one.
I would like to see knife range fall to a skulk bites range.
Knifing CAN be easy, but only for a "seasoned player". Like for example, after you play for a while, you KNOW how close a skulk is to dying, sometimes if i am sloppy with my lmg aim but i still hit the little guy pretty hard i know he has low health instead of busting out my pistol, i just whip out my knife ^_^. Knifing is never truely easy though it takes practice to get good at. It is deffinetly NOT imbalanced.
the other night I got 2 knife fade (w/ cara) kills in one game. Now, With each kill I unloaded 10 Lev1 pistol shots into them to start the fight off (not sure how much damage that does to a carapaced fade) The first fade was a total noob. Dident know how to line up shots and kept trying to back off to acid spam me, was a pretty easy kill. The second was a "normal" player Unloaded with acid and then after i had stuck him sevral time he switched to claws. Unfortently for him He dident know how to counter a marine turning inside his turn raduis. I have allso in the past knifed Oni simply by crouching and slashing up. I normaly can take on a single skulk with just my knife simply becuase I allways get 1st hit (longer knife range) and I swinge faster (I think some one said .65 per second) OK lets just think about the damage a knife dishes out for a second. The HMG is probly a 10mm rifle and it does 18 damage. the pistol looks and feels like a .50-.60 cal and does 20 dam. The knife is a standard buck knife and does 30 with a fast slash?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?
<!--QuoteBegin--STD-SilverWolf+Jul 19 2003, 01:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (STD-SilverWolf @ Jul 19 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> trojan... you can NOT take on a single skulk with just your knife unless the skulk you are fighting has NEVER played the game before. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> or... they're like me and loath playing skulk, so have never taken the time to learn how to effectivly bite 'rines...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a civilian,Jul 18 2003, 10:05 PM]That is incorrect. If it were correct, marine armor upgrades would be completely ineffective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, you are right. Armor actually does absorb more damage the higher level it is, rather than just increase the total avoided damage.
Lol, I was up late one night think about it, I guess I got some stuff wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, looking at weapons in terms of how much damage they are capable of dealing per unit of time, the bite is still capable of killing faster, as I showed you.
You made the conspicuous statement that a "knife kills faster than a bite", which I responded to and showed you that that statement was incorrect.
Anyway... Im sorry to inform you, but even with your new, more detailed model, you are <b>still</b> incorrect, Forlorn.
Assuming that the marine and the skulk begin to attack each other at the same time, a simple damage table would look like this:
time | Marine damage taken | Skulk damage taken
0s | 75 | 30
.65s | 75 | 60
1.0s | 150 | 60
As you can cleary see, Forlorn, the marine would die before he was able to get off his third swing, thus proving that your statement is infact, false.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your logic is flawed, there is no wait time for the first bite or knife swing. 1 sec later the marine should be dead or 1.2 sec later, the skulk will be(if every hit lands).
I can only hope that people don't realise how much PAWN the uber knife is, and stop using their guns. We aliens would be so SCREWED if that happened. I REALLY hope marines don't start using the knife exclusively, we aliens would be killzored EVERY time. MAN I hope this DOESN'T happen.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 19 2003, 11:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 19 2003, 11:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure the bite only attacks once per second? I'm almost certain it isn't that slow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How to kill a knifing marine as a skulk: Back off a few paces (you're faster than the marine). Run forward, jump at the marine, bite. Don't stick around if he doesn't die, back off a few paces. Repeat as necessary. He will get at most one knife hit each time you do this, and bite has more range than knife, so if you time it well, you'll hit him first. I win 90% of my fights in this way, and if that doesn't help, I'm sure somebody knows advanced techniques. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lolfighter is right I do this and it works all the time
Lets be honest you shoot the skulk up first, then knife it, thats how knife kills faster than bite <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you play in the UK look for hybrid | sep, he is the knife master, its scarey the number of kills he gets with the damned thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Electrical Tape+Jul 19 2003, 04:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Electrical Tape @ Jul 19 2003, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a civilian,Jul 18 2003, 10:05 PM]That is incorrect. If it were correct, marine armor upgrades would be completely ineffective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, you are right. Armor actually does absorb more damage the higher level it is, rather than just increase the total avoided damage.
Lol, I was up late one night think about it, I guess I got some stuff wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, looking at weapons in terms of how much damage they are capable of dealing per unit of time, the bite is still capable of killing faster, as I showed you.
You made the conspicuous statement that a "knife kills faster than a bite", which I responded to and showed you that that statement was incorrect.
Anyway... Im sorry to inform you, but even with your new, more detailed model, you are <b>still</b> incorrect, Forlorn.
Assuming that the marine and the skulk begin to attack each other at the same time, a simple damage table would look like this:
time | Marine damage taken | Skulk damage taken
0s | 75 | 30
.65s | 75 | 60
1.0s | 150 | 60
As you can cleary see, Forlorn, the marine would die before he was able to get off his third swing, thus proving that your statement is infact, false.
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you sure the bite only attacks once per second? I'm almost certain it isn't that slow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nearly 100% certain. I remember back in the day, like, around 1.03, I became a really big NS buff on it's numbers, and if I recall correctly, then it's one bite a second, and the knife swings around every .65-.5 seconds. The knife doesn't deal more damage per second than a bite, however, it attacks fast enough to kill the skulk before the skulk can kill the marine. However, once the skulk gets regeneration or carapace, the marine can't swipe fast enough.
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, you just dont get it, do you?
There is no delay before the time of the first bite/knife. Did you read my little damage table? At 0 seconds, the marine has taken 75 damage (bite #1), and the skulk, 30 (Knife #1). At .65 seconds, the marine has still taken only 75 damage, but the skulk has taken now 60 (knife #2). At 1 second though, the skulk is able to inflict fatal damage upon the marine (bite #2), preventing him from getting to his third swing, located at 1.30 seconds.
Therefore, three knife swings do <u><b>not</b></u> go out in two bites, as there is no chance for the marine to swing a third time since he has taken lethal damage.
As for your cute little inequality, its flawed and illogical. Again, there is no delay before the first knife and bite strikes. Why should there be? The knife and bite begin at the same time. Do you understand that?
therefore if the marine gets a hit half a second before the alien he will win, otherwise the alien will win <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Knife has longer range then bite. That means they dont start doing damege at the same time. More often the not knife will score a hit before bite will. You (if done right) get hits like this :knife:bite:knife:knife:
Silver wolf: I routinly kill skulks with my knife. I can reliabley kill an uncarapaced skulk with a knife with no armour upgrades. Its not about just slashing till they die aginst better players though. If you time your hit so that you knife before they bite and then jump, b-hop of straf around them as the 2cd and 3rd slashes go off. Even agisnt good players that works most the time, aginst noobs, well there just dead. Like some one said, I just hope proper knife uasage doesnt spread..... Many months ago I rember posting about how I could uber rush to JPs, recycle all uneeded gear and then JP rush hives to win, Most ppl though that was silly at the time, gee to think.....
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, you just dont get it, do you?
There is no delay before the time of the first bite/knife. Did you read my little damage table? At 0 seconds, the marine has taken 75 damage (bite #1), and the skulk, 30 (Knife #1). At .65 seconds, the marine has still taken only 75 damage, but the skulk has taken now 60 (knife #2). At 1 second though, the skulk is able to inflict fatal damage upon the marine (bite #2), preventing him from getting to his third swing, located at 1.30 seconds.
Therefore, three knife swings do <u><b>not</b></u> go out in two bites, as there is no chance for the marine to swing a third time since he has taken lethal damage.
As for your cute little inequality, its flawed and illogical. Again, there is no delay before the first knife and bite strikes. Why should there be? The knife and bite begin at the same time. Do you understand that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes there is a delay for the first bite, anyone can tell you that first chomp takes time.
And so does the first knife swing.
I would <b>assume</b> that the bite takes .5 secs to bite, and another .5 for the bite's cooldown. That's one second in total.
And the same for the marine, it's .65 halfed, which is .325 secs.
So now, you take
.5 secs for the skulks initial bite, another .5 secs for the skulks cooldown(the jaw releasing), and then another .5 for the skulk to bite again. That's 1.5 seconds in total. .325 for the knifes first swing, another .6 till the next swing, which brings us to .925 secs, and then .325 for the finishing blow, at exactly 1.25 secs, or 1.3 seconds.
There. Are you happy now? The knife and bite attack speeds should be the same, and then it would be fair.
I will say that overwhelmingly the most knife kills I see are by crouching marines. Perhaps the hit box bug fixes in 2.0 will see a drop in knife kills. That said though the range on the knife is rather big.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited July 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 20 2003, 12:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 20 2003, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes there is a delay for the first bite, anyone can tell you that first chomp takes time.
And so does the first knife swing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never noticed that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 19 2003, 09:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 19 2003, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly 100% certain. I remember back in the day, like, around 1.03, I became a really big NS buff on it's numbers, and if I recall correctly, then it's one bite a second, and the knife swings around every .65-.5 seconds. The knife doesn't deal more damage per second than a bite, however, it attacks fast enough to kill the skulk before the skulk can kill the marine. However, once the skulk gets regeneration or carapace, the marine can't swipe fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I'll time the bite and knife's rate of fire next time I play. One bite per second seems so slow.
in 2.0 with the rounded number system if you are good at counting and have a decent aim you can get knife kills like never before <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->...cuz knife range = rawr dont waste bullets <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> especially helpful when you are the bravo that goes out before the armory is up <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I wish we'd stop using figures like knife,bite,knife,knife. That's an IDEAL situation, not a real situation. If I'm not mistaken, we're talking about 1.95 seconds to kill a vanilla skulk with a knife and 2 seconds to kill a vanilla marine with bite. That's a difference of <b>1/20th of a second!</b> So unless both players start "firing" within <b>0.05 seconds of each other</b>, the one who is faster wins. And that's only if both stand still. Remember that the skulk, with its higher speed, can enter and leave the marines range at will, while the marine does not have this advantage. Until I see a demo of marines winning with almost exclusive knife-usage, I really can't take this serious. The knife may have slightly longer range, but to take advantage of this, you'd have to swing your knife <b>after</b> the skulk enters knife range and <b>before</b> he is close enough to bite you. Considering how fast a skulk is, that timespan is minimal (do some calculations on it if you must, but I'd say less than 1/10th of a second). And I'm not even factoring in lag, which sometimes means that I'm killed by a skulk which at that time appears to be at least 1 meter away. I just can't take this serious.
Maybe I'm just **** because it's so hot here. I thought Germany has <b>temperate</b> climate???
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Jul 20 2003, 09:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Jul 20 2003, 09:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wish we'd stop using figures like knife,bite,knife,knife. That's an IDEAL situation, not a real situation. If I'm not mistaken, we're talking about 1.95 seconds to kill a vanilla skulk with a knife and 2 seconds to kill a vanilla marine with bite. That's a difference of <b>1/20th of a second!</b> So unless both players start "firing" within <b>0.05 seconds of each other</b>, the one who is faster wins. And that's only if both stand still. Remember that the skulk, with its higher speed, can enter and leave the marines range at will, while the marine does not have this advantage. Until I see a demo of marines winning with almost exclusive knife-usage, I really can't take this serious. The knife may have slightly longer range, but to take advantage of this, you'd have to swing your knife <b>after</b> the skulk enters knife range and <b>before</b> he is close enough to bite you. Considering how fast a skulk is, that timespan is minimal (do some calculations on it if you must, but I'd say less than 1/10th of a second). And I'm not even factoring in lag, which sometimes means that I'm killed by a skulk which at that time appears to be at least 1 meter away. I just can't take this serious.
Maybe I'm just **** because it's so hot here. I thought Germany has <b>temperate</b> climate??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You highlight everything I'm trying to point out.
Just why the hell does a marine "backup" rival the skulks main attack?
1/20 of a second doesnt sound like much time. But, It doesnt matter if its 1/20, a full second or a minute, the knife hits faster and thats all the game engine cares about when it decides who is dead. Those arent ideal situations I was talking about. They just happen to go that way if I fast tap my mouse while a person is trying to bite me. Yeah I have a feeling if they fix hit boxes that will tone down uber knifeing.
No one just rushes at each other. You jump and circle starfe and do other such things. Unfortunately, a skulk ( although more versetile) loses to a jumping random marine, so that's why they win. The best way out of that situation is to jump back for a second ( to see where he is) and then bite him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes there is a delay for the first bite, anyone can tell you that first chomp takes time.
And so does the first knife swing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, fine. I never noticed a delay, but for arguments sake, say theres a 1/2 attack time delay before each bite/knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would <b>assume</b> that the bite takes .5 secs to bite, and another .5 for the bite's cooldown. That's one second in total.
And the same for the marine, it's .65 halfed, which is .325 secs.
So now, you take
.5 secs for the skulks initial bite, another .5 secs for the skulks cooldown(the jaw releasing), and then another .5 for the skulk to bite again. That's 1.5 seconds in total.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You got the skulk part right... but you made two mistakes for the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.325 for the knifes first swing, another .6 till the next swing, which brings us to .925 secs, and then .325 for the finishing blow, at exactly 1.25 secs, or 1.3 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, the knife has an initial attack delay, or wind-up of .325. By this logic, that means it also has a cool down delay of the same time. This means the second attack wont take place until .975s (you were close on that one). But, the next part you got totally wrong. How does the marine all of sudden begin attacking twice as fast, bypassing his third wind-up and attacking immediately after the second attacks cool down has completed? That is what would have had to happen if at any point two knife swings were only spaced by .325s. The third attack would take place at 1.625s, because .325 (initial wind up) + .65 (a full round before the second attack) + .65 (Another full round before the third attack) is 1.625. which is still longer than it takes the skulk to bite twice, assuming your model with the wind-up and cool down times are correct. You completely left out either the second swings cool down delay, or the third swings wind-up delay, or just halved both of them. Neither makes any sense.
Sorry, but the bite still can still kill faster than the knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just why the hell does a marine "backup" rival the skulks main attack?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only rivals the bite (but still doesnt beat the bite) when several variables are all exactly the same. The chance for that happening in a public game are very low, so you have to consider what the norm is on public servers. Fact is, skulks usually get the first bite if they are semi-carefull, and by that time, unless the marine has some amazing skills up his sleeve, or maybe some hacks, he will die before he can shoot enough lead/slash enough times to kill the skulk. I know this from commanding and watching my troops, actually having it happen, and actually being the skulk and doing it. Its not hard to kill a marine as a skulk... and Im not a very good skulk.
The knife is in no way overpowered. Hell, I believe the knife should be upgraded to something more damaging like a machete. Just because you see one or two marines with unnaural knifing abilities does not mean the knife should be nerfed. Ive seen some skulks with unnatural chomping abilities, but Im not whining for a bite nerf....
What you people dont realize that numbers in an online game are useless. There is a million other factors involved in this that throw them all off. It really comes down to the skill of the player. If he's good, he'll knife 2-3 skulks. If the skulk is good he'll have no problem.
Say, for example, the marine fell down and lost 20 health, or he picked up some health left over battling the skulk.
There is only like one chance in a million that all the conditions will be perfect and they will be equally matched and they will have the same ping, and fps, and then the numbers will come into effect.
I realize that Mojo, and mentioned it in the second to last paragraph of my last post. Im really just responding to Forlorn's statement that the "knife kills faster than bite", which is incorrect in theory, and practice. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Yet my experience STILL is that bite has more range than knife.
omgimbalance
Bite damage = 75 per second (I believe it to be less than a second, but for arguments sake....)
Knife damage = 46.14 per second, if indeed it swings every .65 second.
What the hell are you talking about, knife kills faster than bite?
The skulk is vastly superior to the marine in every aspect of melee combat.
"If you ask me I say nerf the knife anyhow, knife should be a weapon of last resort, not some weapon that rivals the competetor's weapon. Seriously, if the knife stays the way it is then by this logic skulks should get a backup weapon that rivals the LMG. "
If you ask me, however, I say upgrade the knife into a two handed sword with a base damage of 150 (triple damage to structures) and a five foot range. Marines would be able to swing the sword once every 1.2 seconds. Those umbraed fades wont even know what hit em....
(for those with no sense of humor, I was being sarcastic... even though swords would be cool in NS <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont know if you have noticed..but a knife is only functional with an arm. An arm is longer than a bite range (see if u can bite someone before they punch u in the face). You see where I'm going here. Use common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should use common sense. All the marine's weaponry is longer ranged than nearly all alien weaponry. I don't care if it's "realistic". Very few things about NS is "realisitic". This is a gameplay issue, not a realism one.
I would like to see knife range fall to a skulk bites range.
Knifing is never truely easy though it takes practice to get good at. It is deffinetly NOT imbalanced.
I normaly can take on a single skulk with just my knife simply becuase I allways get 1st hit (longer knife range) and I swinge faster (I think some one said .65 per second)
OK lets just think about the damage a knife dishes out for a second. The HMG is probly a 10mm rifle and it does 18 damage. the pistol looks and feels like a .50-.60 cal and does 20 dam. The knife is a standard buck knife and does 30 with a fast slash?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?
or... they're like me and loath playing skulk, so have never taken the time to learn how to effectivly bite 'rines...
Ahh, you are right. Armor actually does absorb more damage the higher level it is, rather than just increase the total avoided damage.
Lol, I was up late one night think about it, I guess I got some stuff wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, looking at weapons in terms of how much damage they are capable of dealing per unit of time, the bite is still capable of killing faster, as I showed you.
You made the conspicuous statement that a "knife kills faster than a bite", which I responded to and showed you that that statement was incorrect.
Anyway... Im sorry to inform you, but even with your new, more detailed model, you are <b>still</b> incorrect, Forlorn.
Assuming that the marine and the skulk begin to attack each other at the same time, a simple damage table would look like this:
time | Marine damage taken | Skulk damage taken
0s | 75 | 30
.65s | 75 | 60
1.0s | 150 | 60
As you can cleary see, Forlorn, the marine would die before he was able to get off his third swing, thus proving that your statement is infact, false.
I win, you lose.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your logic is flawed, there is no wait time for the first bite or knife swing. 1 sec later the marine should be dead or 1.2 sec later, the skulk will be(if every hit lands).
:rolleyes:
Are you sure the bite only attacks once per second? I'm almost certain it isn't that slow.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lolfighter is right I do this and it works all the time
If you play in the UK look for hybrid | sep, he is the knife master, its scarey the number of kills he gets with the damned thing.
Ahh, you are right. Armor actually does absorb more damage the higher level it is, rather than just increase the total avoided damage.
Lol, I was up late one night think about it, I guess I got some stuff wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Knife does kill faster than a bite.
First off, knife damage = 30 dmg. It takes 3 swipes from a knife to kill an unupgraded skulk.
Since you have .65 a swing, that means it takes 1.95 seconds to get off 3 swings, which is faster than the required 2 bites to kill a marine, which is 2 seconds for 2 bites.
I win, you lose. I rarely post false info.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, looking at weapons in terms of how much damage they are capable of dealing per unit of time, the bite is still capable of killing faster, as I showed you.
You made the conspicuous statement that a "knife kills faster than a bite", which I responded to and showed you that that statement was incorrect.
Anyway... Im sorry to inform you, but even with your new, more detailed model, you are <b>still</b> incorrect, Forlorn.
Assuming that the marine and the skulk begin to attack each other at the same time, a simple damage table would look like this:
time | Marine damage taken | Skulk damage taken
0s | 75 | 30
.65s | 75 | 60
1.0s | 150 | 60
As you can cleary see, Forlorn, the marine would die before he was able to get off his third swing, thus proving that your statement is infact, false.
I win, you lose.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, here's a simple inequality:
1.95 < 2.00
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you sure the bite only attacks once per second? I'm almost certain it isn't that slow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nearly 100% certain. I remember back in the day, like, around 1.03, I became a really big NS buff on it's numbers, and if I recall correctly, then it's one bite a second, and the knife swings around every .65-.5 seconds. The knife doesn't deal more damage per second than a bite, however, it attacks fast enough to kill the skulk before the skulk can kill the marine. However, once the skulk gets regeneration or carapace, the marine can't swipe fast enough.
1.95 < 2.00
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you just dont get it, do you?
There is no delay before the time of the first bite/knife. Did you read my little damage table? At 0 seconds, the marine has taken 75 damage (bite #1), and the skulk, 30 (Knife #1). At .65 seconds, the marine has still taken only 75 damage, but the skulk has taken now 60 (knife #2). At 1 second though, the skulk is able to inflict fatal damage upon the marine (bite #2), preventing him from getting to his third swing, located at 1.30 seconds.
Therefore, three knife swings do <u><b>not</b></u> go out in two bites, as there is no chance for the marine to swing a third time since he has taken lethal damage.
As for your cute little inequality, its flawed and illogical. Again, there is no delay before the first knife and bite strikes. Why should there be? The knife and bite begin at the same time. Do you understand that?
Silver wolf: I routinly kill skulks with my knife. I can reliabley kill an uncarapaced skulk with a knife with no armour upgrades. Its not about just slashing till they die aginst better players though. If you time your hit so that you knife before they bite and then jump, b-hop of straf around them as the 2cd and 3rd slashes go off.
Even agisnt good players that works most the time, aginst noobs, well there just dead.
Like some one said, I just hope proper knife uasage doesnt spread.....
Many months ago I rember posting about how I could uber rush to JPs, recycle all uneeded gear and then JP rush hives to win, Most ppl though that was silly at the time, gee to think.....
1.95 < 2.00
In other words, three knife swings go out before 2 bites! Jeez, it's not that difficult to understand, is it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you just dont get it, do you?
There is no delay before the time of the first bite/knife. Did you read my little damage table? At 0 seconds, the marine has taken 75 damage (bite #1), and the skulk, 30 (Knife #1). At .65 seconds, the marine has still taken only 75 damage, but the skulk has taken now 60 (knife #2). At 1 second though, the skulk is able to inflict fatal damage upon the marine (bite #2), preventing him from getting to his third swing, located at 1.30 seconds.
Therefore, three knife swings do <u><b>not</b></u> go out in two bites, as there is no chance for the marine to swing a third time since he has taken lethal damage.
As for your cute little inequality, its flawed and illogical. Again, there is no delay before the first knife and bite strikes. Why should there be? The knife and bite begin at the same time. Do you understand that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes there is a delay for the first bite, anyone can tell you that first chomp takes time.
And so does the first knife swing.
I would <b>assume</b> that the bite takes .5 secs to bite, and another .5 for the bite's cooldown. That's one second in total.
And the same for the marine, it's .65 halfed, which is .325 secs.
So now, you take
.5 secs for the skulks initial bite, another .5 secs for the skulks cooldown(the jaw releasing), and then another .5 for the skulk to bite again. That's 1.5 seconds in total.
.325 for the knifes first swing, another .6 till the next swing, which brings us to .925 secs, and then .325 for the finishing blow, at exactly 1.25 secs, or 1.3 seconds.
There. Are you happy now? The knife and bite attack speeds should be the same, and then it would be fair.
And so does the first knife swing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never noticed that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 19 2003, 09:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 19 2003, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly 100% certain. I remember back in the day, like, around 1.03, I became a really big NS buff on it's numbers, and if I recall correctly, then it's one bite a second, and the knife swings around every .65-.5 seconds. The knife doesn't deal more damage per second than a bite, however, it attacks fast enough to kill the skulk before the skulk can kill the marine. However, once the skulk gets regeneration or carapace, the marine can't swipe fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'll time the bite and knife's rate of fire next time I play. One bite per second seems so slow.
Maybe I'm just **** because it's so hot here. I thought Germany has <b>temperate</b> climate???
Maybe I'm just **** because it's so hot here. I thought Germany has <b>temperate</b> climate??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You highlight everything I'm trying to point out.
Just why the hell does a marine "backup" rival the skulks main attack?
Those arent ideal situations I was talking about. They just happen to go that way if I fast tap my mouse while a person is trying to bite me.
Yeah I have a feeling if they fix hit boxes that will tone down uber knifeing.
And so does the first knife swing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, fine. I never noticed a delay, but for arguments sake, say theres a 1/2 attack time delay before each bite/knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would <b>assume</b> that the bite takes .5 secs to bite, and another .5 for the bite's cooldown. That's one second in total.
And the same for the marine, it's .65 halfed, which is .325 secs.
So now, you take
.5 secs for the skulks initial bite, another .5 secs for the skulks cooldown(the jaw releasing), and then another .5 for the skulk to bite again. That's 1.5 seconds in total.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You got the skulk part right... but you made two mistakes for the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.325 for the knifes first swing, another .6 till the next swing, which brings us to .925 secs, and then .325 for the finishing blow, at exactly 1.25 secs, or 1.3 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, the knife has an initial attack delay, or wind-up of .325. By this logic, that means it also has a cool down delay of the same time. This means the second attack wont take place until .975s (you were close on that one). But, the next part you got totally wrong. How does the marine all of sudden begin attacking twice as fast, bypassing his third wind-up and attacking immediately after the second attacks cool down has completed? That is what would have had to happen if at any point two knife swings were only spaced by .325s. The third attack would take place at 1.625s, because .325 (initial wind up) + .65 (a full round before the second attack) + .65 (Another full round before the third attack) is 1.625. which is still longer than it takes the skulk to bite twice, assuming your model with the wind-up and cool down times are correct. You completely left out either the second swings cool down delay, or the third swings wind-up delay, or just halved both of them. Neither makes any sense.
Sorry, but the bite still can still kill faster than the knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just why the hell does a marine "backup" rival the skulks main attack?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only rivals the bite (but still doesnt beat the bite) when several variables are all exactly the same. The chance for that happening in a public game are very low, so you have to consider what the norm is on public servers. Fact is, skulks usually get the first bite if they are semi-carefull, and by that time, unless the marine has some amazing skills up his sleeve, or maybe some hacks, he will die before he can shoot enough lead/slash enough times to kill the skulk. I know this from commanding and watching my troops, actually having it happen, and actually being the skulk and doing it. Its not hard to kill a marine as a skulk... and Im not a very good skulk.
The knife is in no way overpowered. Hell, I believe the knife should be upgraded to something more damaging like a machete. Just because you see one or two marines with unnaural knifing abilities does not mean the knife should be nerfed. Ive seen some skulks with unnatural chomping abilities, but Im not whining for a bite nerf....
Say, for example, the marine fell down and lost 20 health, or he picked up some health left over battling the skulk.
There is only like one chance in a million that all the conditions will be perfect and they will be equally matched and they will have the same ping, and fps, and then the numbers will come into effect.