Pts And Vets, Please Help Us!
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How did you guys use these?</div> One thing which is blindingly obvious to anyone on these forums is that the PTs and Vets have been playing around with 2.0 for much longer than we have <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> . Thus I wish to draw upon their knowledge of the game and ask them how they used certain aspects of it in the playtesting.
1) Fades. Why and how?
Firstly, why did anyone evolve into a Fade during testing? I've been wracking my brains trying to find a definite "role" for Fades and I keep falling short of an answer. In meele combat they're essentially big skulks that are easier to hit. What concerns me most is that Fades tend to die very quickly to lvl 2 or 3 weapons, not to mention shotguns. Against HA Fades again fall short, which is worrying given that combatting HA is almost a certainty in 2.0. You might as well go skulk because they die just as fast as Fades do. The most I've ever managed to do against HA as a Fade was to blink in, get off ONE swipe, then die. Against structures Fades fall short again, due to the tracking of turrets. They can be useful for taking out electrified nodes, but only with gorge support. For many people on the servers I frequent Fades have quite simply vanaished: people feel the res would be better spent on a hive or saving towards an onos. So how and why did you use Fades?
2) Onos.
This may sound like a strange question; the role of the onos should be self evident, correct? Perhaps not. Most of the time in games where one side doesn't inflict a crippling blow on the other in the 1st 5 minutes, HAs and oni appear roughly the same time. Yet HAs, in almost all the games I've played so far, come out on top. The overwhelming supremecy of lvl 3 weapons vs a slow moving creature which you'd have to be blind to miss combine to result in dead oni. I find myself taking redemtion purely to survive! Now the hives change things around a LOT for the onos. Stomp is a fantastic ability that really helps combat HA. But it's a 2nd hive ability.
What more and more marine teams seem to be doing is going for the good ol' 2 hive lockdown. With that in place, coupled with the well nigh insane tracking of turrets, oni or any other evolution can't combat HA and can't break the deadlock. Res for kills allows the marines to gain fast res early on, which goes into tech, which is used to further their expansion, which allows them to secure nodes, which in turn allows them to take hives. How thus did the PTs and Vets use the onos, and were 2 hive lockdowns still a problem in the testing?
3) Shotgun HA rush
Did this ever come up? I've seen this in a few games so far and it's already shown itself to be astoundingly effective. Grab around 3 nodes, electrify, keep a few marines partolling whilst teching to HA. Drop around 4 - 5 HA, equip with shotguns and welders, and walk to wherever you want to go. It can be done so quickly that in the times I've seen it done oni hadn't even appeared yet, and when they did appear, they got pasted. The few Fades that were around were lucky to even get into shotgun range, where of course they died extreamly quickly. Did this ever come up in the playtesting?
I wish to impress however that I simply love 2.0, and I want to believe that there are answers to the problems I've described here. Hence why I wish to call upon the experiance of the people who tested our beloved game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) Fades. Why and how?
Firstly, why did anyone evolve into a Fade during testing? I've been wracking my brains trying to find a definite "role" for Fades and I keep falling short of an answer. In meele combat they're essentially big skulks that are easier to hit. What concerns me most is that Fades tend to die very quickly to lvl 2 or 3 weapons, not to mention shotguns. Against HA Fades again fall short, which is worrying given that combatting HA is almost a certainty in 2.0. You might as well go skulk because they die just as fast as Fades do. The most I've ever managed to do against HA as a Fade was to blink in, get off ONE swipe, then die. Against structures Fades fall short again, due to the tracking of turrets. They can be useful for taking out electrified nodes, but only with gorge support. For many people on the servers I frequent Fades have quite simply vanaished: people feel the res would be better spent on a hive or saving towards an onos. So how and why did you use Fades?
2) Onos.
This may sound like a strange question; the role of the onos should be self evident, correct? Perhaps not. Most of the time in games where one side doesn't inflict a crippling blow on the other in the 1st 5 minutes, HAs and oni appear roughly the same time. Yet HAs, in almost all the games I've played so far, come out on top. The overwhelming supremecy of lvl 3 weapons vs a slow moving creature which you'd have to be blind to miss combine to result in dead oni. I find myself taking redemtion purely to survive! Now the hives change things around a LOT for the onos. Stomp is a fantastic ability that really helps combat HA. But it's a 2nd hive ability.
What more and more marine teams seem to be doing is going for the good ol' 2 hive lockdown. With that in place, coupled with the well nigh insane tracking of turrets, oni or any other evolution can't combat HA and can't break the deadlock. Res for kills allows the marines to gain fast res early on, which goes into tech, which is used to further their expansion, which allows them to secure nodes, which in turn allows them to take hives. How thus did the PTs and Vets use the onos, and were 2 hive lockdowns still a problem in the testing?
3) Shotgun HA rush
Did this ever come up? I've seen this in a few games so far and it's already shown itself to be astoundingly effective. Grab around 3 nodes, electrify, keep a few marines partolling whilst teching to HA. Drop around 4 - 5 HA, equip with shotguns and welders, and walk to wherever you want to go. It can be done so quickly that in the times I've seen it done oni hadn't even appeared yet, and when they did appear, they got pasted. The few Fades that were around were lucky to even get into shotgun range, where of course they died extreamly quickly. Did this ever come up in the playtesting?
I wish to impress however that I simply love 2.0, and I want to believe that there are answers to the problems I've described here. Hence why I wish to call upon the experiance of the people who tested our beloved game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
1st With onos I quickly discovered that celerity is the way to go. I combo celerity with redemtion and use an assaintion style tactic where I go in stomp a group and then devour the most expensive looking marine I see. Between the healing and redemtion (decent fps still seems to help alot) I rearly ever die. Since your basicly only making two attacks (stomp and then devour) you dont really need adrenilin anymore. The celerity makes catching 'rines alot easier and also helps on the aproach.
Fades AKA gimpy the flailing retardos. WTH was Flayra and the PTs thinking?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?? I agree with the above Fades, are easy to hit expensive skulks. And what makes them worse are those gimped retarded flaying claws. once agin WTH were they thinking? All I can say is they should do one of two things. One go bake to the old animations and then either drop fade cost or up its energy, health and armor. Two Give it a hocky helment and have it spawn outa a special short yellow hive.
HA/shotty rush OMG talk about niegh unstopable! I was coming games where I only dropped two res towers and got some guys to guard them. Skulk fodder added the res blast I needed to fast tech HA and give a shotty to nearly all my guys, We then proceeded to lay waste to every thing. Next game my best friend comed and Aleins layed tons of sensory towers. We had to slow down the rush to build two Obs and then procceded to lay waste to every thing. A group of 4 gorges tried to gorge gang our base (and suceeded) so we just relocted to there hive.
Good to see that I was not alone in my observations of my original concerns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, shotgun rush or fast lockdown essentially wins the marines the game. But that can be difficult to do if the aliens have decent players anywhere.
I liked the old blink better as well. With the new blink I'll use it to rush a marine, but still get shot up on the approach. I kill him and come out injured, and sit back and start casting my metabolize spell (what is with that animation the claws do). With the old blink, I'd use it and pop up behind a confused marine and sink my claws into his back. I come out barely hurt and move on to the next kill.
At the very least, acid rocket needs a little buff. For a 3 hive ability, I find it somewhat lacking. I'd prefer the rocket be moved to hive 2 though, to allow the fade to counter the auto shotty easier, and move metabolize to hive 3 and have it heal 30-40 hp with each casting.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <(rawr! I eats the marines yum yum!)
Yeah, the Fades are weaker now but that suits what Flayra has envisioned for them. And yes they do need support to take out outposts, but NS is a team game that promotes heavy team play. So perhaps forcing fades to need support to take out enemy outposts may be a good thing for NS.
The onos is the all around kick **** alien still. Albeit more fragile but it forces theplayer to become more versatile with the alien. Oni can take down bases, devour unexpecting marines coming around the corner, stomp and stun for the skulkies. All the aliens have a bunch of new roles and are a lot more versatile now. Take some time and find the strengths and if by the end of a couple of weeks you still see these problems then post.
BTW, I love the new lerk. I once saw a lerk and gorge take down an electric node with some turrets while keeping a few marines at bay on ns_origin. Hilarous to watch the lerk providing umbra for the gorge as he bile bombs and using spores to counter incoming marines.
2) Onos: Lerk spores won't do a thing vs. HAs. Charging Oni will. No amount of oni will get a perched jetpacker. One liberally sporing lerk can. I'll hold off talking much more about the popularity of 2-hive lockdowns and turret farming; many people haven't even tried other strats yet (see below)
3) Shotgun HA rush: shotty rushes with and without HAs were tried. It really came down more to a question of resources. For marines, hunting res nodes (and even moreso, hunting gorges) in the early-game was really popular. Same goes for the Kharaa, we'd constantly be sending packs of skulks to undefended res nodes before the electricity upgrade could be researched. One thing I'm interested in seeing in the near future with pub games: in playtests I'd seen mini-squads sent out for the <i>sole purpose</i> of gorge hunting. I haven't seen this so much in pub play, and I'm wondering how it's affecting the length of pub games.
Back to the point about shotty rushes, the emphasis on attacking the enemy's supply line usually meant that if a "rush" by either team was unsuccessful, you would be hurting pretty bad. It's a risk.
The one I've seen ends the game in roughly a couple of minutes. Essentially the marines just drop shotguns and straight away charge the hive. I'm going to try this myself tonight.
The skulk does hit and run just as well anyways, using leap to get in and out of combat is more effective than blink, as it takes less energy, does damage, and the skulks smaller collision box means you won't run into things like the fade does.
I'll use him some more before making any final conclusions, but even employing him as a hit and runner, he seems mediocre at best.
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Exactly. Why evolve into a 50 res Fade when a 0 res skulk actually does the same job better? The Fade can hit and run, but god help him if it's against HA, because one or 2 shotgun blasts and bye bye Fade. Not to mention HMGs at close range. Skulks, with their smaller size, are far better at avoiding hits and can get more chomps in before dying. A very lucky Fade might get in 3 hits, but he WILL die to get those hits in. Net result- maybe one health pack dropped on the targetted HA. For a 50 res investment that's a joke.
Marik_Steele I don't for one moment question the power of the 2 or 3 hive onos. Stomp and charge are just brilliant. The one hive onos though is just not worth the res. He can't combat HA which is supposed to be his role: a big tank that can take the hits and get up close and personal. The problem? Most of the time he'll die before he gets there. This is why 2 hive lockdowns are remaining a very valid tactic: aliens still can't break them and it hurts their abilities to a massive degree.
Tonite I killed servral fades with upgraded LMGs simple by circling and keeping a little distance. I find that fades die faster to a HMG then they can swipe even a Lite marine. We took a lev2 lite marine with lev2 HMG had fade stand with in swipe range and had them hit each other. 3 outa 4 times fade went down 1st
bottom line_____
fades either need to get there price dropped ALOT or get a significant boost in all areas (and nix that awlfull new claw ****)
Lets see:
1) Fades
Keep in mind that you should be using upgrades too -- regen or redempt, celerity or silence, and SOF. Depending what you have depends how you play. A silent celerity Fade is lethal, esepcially in range of sensories. Regen and redemption allow you to take on higher risk fights.
A Fade can blink to any location in a room, including high ceilings. He can blink across the map in seconds for quick defence. And while he's blinking, he can't be targetted by turrets. The best Fade players are able to interchangeably blink and swipe in a fight, and doing so makes them extremely fearsome units. I've seen a Fade clear up five marines with nary a scratch on him, the marines trying desperately to get a ball on him as he zips around, before falling to a lethal swipe.
2) Onos
As with Fades, it depends on the upgrades. Celerity is a must if movement is present, as is redemption or regen for defence. The key to remember is that you're not invincible as in 1.04, and behemoth you may be it's just as pertinent for you to use hit and run tactics as an Onos as with a Fade or Skulk. Get in there, gorge or devour a marine or two or take out a turret, then back off for healing.
At two hives, they are very powerful. Stomp plus the added advantage of a second chamber ability is a clear bonus <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
As for giving the marines plenty of res at the start, don't go picking fights you can't win. Skulks are still all about ambushing, and silence and cloaking greatly empower them. If sensories or movements aren't available first, consider redemption -- redempt-a-skulks deny them res and also allow you to bypass the spawn queue.
3) Shotgun rush
Shotgun rushes are a eminently viable tactic, but they have their weaknesses. Early LMG marine shotty rushes are a high risk, but if they work are well deserved. HA shotty rushes, well, to get the tech researched and enough HA units dropped, what were the alien team doing in the meantime? Electrical nodes or not, you can down them, and should be destroying their res at every available opportunity. If they've managed to earn enough res to tech to and purchase HA in number, why shouldn't they be able to clean up?
Besides, unless your team is sleeping on the job you will most certainly have two hives, possibly three, by that time and with it the advantages of stomp, umbra, leap, metabolise and bilebomb (which which to take out their res). Stomp makes cleaning up HA crews much easier, umbra allows Onos, Fades and Skulks to fell them without too much trouble, and don't forget you can umbra the hive at range to keep it alive longer. Don't underestimate the Lerk's support role, and don't forget the potency of poison as a tool for area denial and hampering marine expansion.
That said, don't underestimate the power of skulks and attrition when combating HA groups (whatever weapons they happen to carry). Entire HA groups can sometimes fall by repeated attacks, especially in numbers, regardless of medspam. It's messy, and more skulks will die than marines, but at 30-40 res per marine compared to what they get for a skulk kill, you easily balance the books (not to mention save the hive). If sensories are nearby, you can always get a bite or two in free as well.
Course HA crews just as often get in there and clean up big time, and so they should. That's what balance is about <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
M
I.E, If a lone fade is being chased by a few HA marines, and you happen to be an Onos, use stomp to stun them and he can quite easily take them out, and you can cheerfully devour any survivors. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's all on the upgrades,having a Fade with Celerity and if it blinks you have a very close to unstoppable marine killer
Onos just do what they do,Devour and Stomp
And as for other aliens....Silence can help out a lot.I managed to see a SKulk slowly tear apart a group of HAs with Silence(and no they weren't welding,their fault!)
And as for shotgun rushes....I don't have much to say except that it hurts aliens a LOT if it succeeds.
You just have to accumulate 25 ressources as a skulk to evolve into a fade , making hive rushing strategies more effective (hive 3 fades are terrific at dealing with not-so-upgraded marines)
A hive 2 fade can deal with elec nodes with little or no support , and can destroy small turret farms. The only rule is to never engage upgraded shotguns and HMGs ; fades are good at slaying GL wielders , they are way less likely to eat grenades than the onos. Hive 3 (or ace hive 1 ones since I heard tales of vets slaying jetpackers midair using blink jump) fades can also deal with jetpackers and marines camping out of reach of the onos.
I found the fade to be very effective at defending the assault gorge , who is else vulnerable to light marines.
The only thing you need to insure when you use this tactic is to make sure the marines don't get a two hive lockdown (as you'll need more than sensory to take a hive back).
-Lith
-_-
k?thnxbi.
games only take so long because aliens can't get their act together to finish it
I have been thinking about creating a squad for res hunting, a squad for ramboing, a squad for lockdown
I have only commed 2x so far for v2.0 I'll have to try squads out
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <(rawr! I eats the marines yum yum!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The biggest problem with the aliens I've seen so far is that I haven't seen any alien that isn't a hit and run alien. Onos with carapace maybe, but without cara even an Onos is out of the fight quickly. And lerk umbra seems to have taken a serious reduction in effectiveness.
nah ..
cause that would be like ... dumb .. and stuff ... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
JP > Onos > HA > Fade > JP
If the marines use HA, use Oni to devour/stomp them. If they move to JPs, use Fades for acid rocket / jumpblink.
Having the same problem here. Also, fast weapon switching is essential for fades. I personally think abilities like blink and metabolize (though less important for meta as it's not likely to be used in combat) should be put on a different hotkey so that they can easily be used together with weapons. Skulk leap as a weapon is OK because it really is effective as a weapon. lastinv helps a bit, but I'd prefer to blink with the same convenience as jump.
I guess it could be scripted, but then you probably get all the exploit pedants harrasing you for cheating <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
PS: what's this jumpblink thing? Fade can fly? How do you do it? Or did a real manual get posted somewhere?
As a Fade fan since 1.00, I feel somewhat qualified to talk about this. I'm not a Vet or a PT but already I'm pretty good with the new Fade if I do say so myself. My basic playstyle:
1.) Regen + Adrenaline + Scent of Fear. I'm not entirely decided on Regen yet, but when Adrenaline is not available I think it's extremely useful not having to use all your energy metabolizing.
2.) I am a blink ****. Always have been, always will be. I have hud_fastswitch set to 0 as always to allow fast switching between weapons(useful in all species for obvious reasons). I jump and do quick blinks at a 45 degree angle or so to do big leaps across the map for VERY little energy cost, and if you're good you can bunny hop out of this to retain a high speed.
3.) Blink is great. When I see a marine or two around the corner(I <u>NEVER</u> attack more than 2 marines head on unless I have good reason to think I'll win, i.e. sub-L3 LMGs and low on ammo), I wait for them to be about to turn the corner and blink straight to the wall behind them(Try not to get into fights with low energy if at all possible). Hit 1, turn around fast and swipe the marine dead. If there's another marine and/or the first one gets out of range, I blink behind him again with a quick tap, adjust my aim and swipe again. Always keep an eye on your health and aim to blink out of there before you hit half HP, minimum(you can never be too sure that you won't hit an alien or something on the way out, and the second half of your HP goes down much faster than the first due to low armor).
4.) <b>Do not under any circumstances</b> allow a marine to keep a steady aim on you. If he manages to step back and shoot, blink behind him with a very quick tap of the mouse. If you want blink once or twice more to disorient him before you start swiping again. Sometimes you only have to blink once and they'll think you ran away, and won't even turn around before you hit them. It is especially important to do this as often as possible against a shotgunner, because those things hurt a lot. You can't win every fight; if your HP is low blink out of there without delay. Your life is worth 50 res and it is far more important than getting that kill. I can honestly say that the majority of my deaths have simply been a result of poor judgement.
5.) You are not a tank, period. Be very careful around shotguns. If they have an HMG then only attack them when you know they aren't expecting you, and blink out immediately if you fail to kill the HMGer in the first couple of swipes. NEVER, EVER confront a group of HAs; the only times you should even attempt this are when you have acid rocket and when they're distracted with other aliens. Always keep one finger on the 2 to blink away at a moment's notice because it really doesn't take much to kill you. When it gets to the point that an entire team is HA and you don't have 3 hives for acid rocket, you're better off picking another species.
As you can see, I am very passionate about Fades. Remember, they are the most unpredictable of all alien species and if you fail to make use of that advantage then you truly are better off with a different species. Always be blinking. If you can't blink in combat, learn, because that's where a Fade's true power comes from. I don't know how convincing this long rant is; it's hard to describe, you really just have to watch a good Fade in action to see what I mean. A good early game Fade can turn the tide of the game. Thinking of Fades as big skulks that just cost a lot more res is ludicrous.