How Even Do You Think It Is
RotA_Plague
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6768Members
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6768Members
Well currently I find NS 2.0 extremely even, but I post because I hear alot of marine complaining about it being uneven. WIth this I figured I might as well ask everyone (and seeing how I cannot make a poll I will do it this way).
Please make your Yes or No <b>bold</b> at the top and then your reason below it.
Please make your Yes or No <b>bold</b> at the top and then your reason below it.
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Comments
i've played with some very good players, a bunch of veterans, and lots of people as new to it as me, and i've concluded that whichever team plays with the most cohesiveness and teamwork wins, as it should be <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i've seen 1-sided unbelivable slaughterfests for both sides.
everyone says they just dont know how to play 2.0 yet. i believe it, marine strategies have changed dramatically, and aliens were only made better. now anyone who knew how to play alien is even better and anyone who knew how to play marine has to relearn it.
give it time.
and it wind because of noob comms not building observatories and not scanning.
its allanced.
now lets see some movement first and nice JP action.
I love being ninja fade. Regeneration, Silence and Cloaking and Blink. Blink in, swipe swipe, blink out. Cloak and Regen. They cant hear you regen due to silence. I see a lot of marines panic when they see a fade pop up swipe and leave without hearing a thing. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, in summary, yeah, I think it's quite balanced... Marines are just suffering from lack of teamwork (1.04 pub jetpack mentality) and bad comms, causing what I imagine is a slew of alien wins on most servers. Their own fault, though.
The new system was supposed to end stalemates, but all I have seen is huge (3-hours even) games that end up with the marines F4ing because they cant be bothered drawing it out any longer. <i>I have only seen <b>one</b> marine victory over the last two days, and that game was won in less than 5 minutes.</i>
Something has to be done, but what, I have no idea.
Get 3-4 gorges with a lerk or 2 and a few skulks and oni/fades and you can crack anything
Umbra and bilebomb their base while skulks xeno and oni and fades draw fire. I've seen 3 gorges go into the vent hive on hera and rip apart a turret farm with about 15+ structures in less than 30 seconds. Gorges are your siege weapons use them don't try to brute force marine with oni you'll just prolong it
I think it's even. I also think it's way to early to make that call with any kind of credability.
I have seen wins on both sides, about 30/70 in favor of aliens. I too think it's mainly cause the rines are the ones that have to adapt so much. Especialy to the SC.
Almost all alien losses I have suffered stemms from selfish onos players*. It's really aggravating to constanly have less than 30 res because I keep putting up chambers and skulking, and we lose with like 3 peopl having 70+ plus res. One hive onos 30 minutes into the game are not going to do much to those 4 HA/HMG/Naders. And if they do get to the almighty onos, they don't attack because they are scared of losing their investment. If people would spend just a little bit more res, a SC here an OC there, a RC everywhere, they could get onos at probably the same time.
*This is not directed to the good offensive skulks who earn thier onos res through kills.
I have so far played a nice total of 57 rounds. Yes I counted. Yes I had lots of time, 2 Days off in a row. No I have not had a life with 2.0 coming out besides going to the gym.
(In fact I have a little sticky on my moniter with slash marks to keep track of rounds just for this type of thread. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Anyways Marines have won 26 games and aliens have won 31.
Thats a 45.6% Marine Win Ratio and a 54.4% Alien win ratio. 3 of those marine losses were b/c we tried to relocate in the new maps and it turned out to be a bad spot b/c no one knew the maps. etc
thus making that percent even more narrow.
With that in mind Id say its pretty darn even.
For those of you who think X side never wins, try another server, or give it some time for more people (both vets and new players alike) to figure out what they are doing.
Also Ive been in some VERY LOOONG games simply b/c both sides were so even we were basicaly stalemated lol for 2 1/2 hours on NS_veil.
Just remember I Cannot stress this enough. NS is a game that requires Immense ammounts ot team work and self sacrifice.
Not to brag, but for example today on Mineshaft I could have gone Onos and attempted to get a snack and have fun like everyone else but instead I used my res to go gorge and put up defenses and the last hive.
The team who uses team work the most will do so much better and go so much farther.
Perhaps if everybody on the kharaa team went gorge and propped up strategic wols. OCs are much more deadly now, so it would take more than a big group of vanilla rines to even dent a good wol. Just an idea.
I've played 2-3 games that went on for over two hours. Both had the teams fighting back and forth over hives and dual node locations. From what I've seen, Sensory > Defense > Movement seems to be the favorite alien strategy. Most games I've played ended in alien victories. However, we were often very weak, and a organized Marine team would of broken through.
The game-flow I've seen going is as this :
Start of game :
Marines secure another room, either a hive or a dual node room.
Aliens quickly get a second hive, and a third if available.
---
Second hive is complete, Aliens have 4+ nodes on the map. Sensory towers dot the landscape.
Marines have slowly expanded and captured more nodes. They'll try to take a hive or dual node room if they haven't already. Marines get torn up when entering areas where Aliens have layed down Sensory towers.
---
Aliens have most nodes in the areas between their two hives. Fades and Onos are common on the playfield. Marines are pushed out of their spawn base and have relocated to one of the locations above.
Heavy armor and HMGs are on the field. An organized attack on a hive will start.
---
Heavy losses on both sides, aliens usually come out on top.
Marines regroup while the Aliens attack Marine nodes, then assault the marines weakest outpost. (Either a hive or node room)
---
Marines are pushed back into one room. Heavy Armor and HMGs have become scarce since they only hold two or three nodes.
Aliens have a hard time breaking through extensive turret farms. Redeeming Fades and Onos slowly break down Marine defenses with support of gorges.
Once the turret factory falls, all the Aliens break down the walls for some sort of dance party.
It's so balanced now that it often ends in a 3 hour battle and F4. I aggree if the marines have a decent commander and team work they'll win.
I used to fade a lot near the end of a match in 1.04, but I don't do that as much anymore because all the damn onoses cut off my retreat. I guess I've always been more of a "support" kind of guy... in TFC, I was always the helpful medic or the suicidal pyro.
Currently, aliens win a lot, and with Sensory Chambers they have the run of the map. Strangely, because a scanner sweep is all it takes to show where the SCs are and take them down. So, no, currently the game is not balanced, but that's because the players don't know how to play it yet.
I also believe Flayra made a request not to make balance posts before playing the game for a couple of weeks. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I've seen marines win.
A vaguely decent comm who has read the changes with some semi competent rines can easily fully upgrade his marines and spew out as many HA trains as required. SC is not overpowerd - infect it helps the comm have his marines stick to their teammates or defenseive positions around the obses. assignin an obs to a group also make scanning less hassle.
I have been commin, part of and on the recievig end of these HA trains many times and the only time that it has been stopped was when i made the foolish mistake of using stab mon to attack their second hive (3rd had been slaughtered in sewer) of gen. 3 oni lurked around there they each devoured a HA when he came up ladder and legged it. We had a complete stalemate over stab mon for over an hour. And eventually we got bored and sold up. (hell even when we were down to 6 non repawinig HMG/LA ers theyre took their time killin us)
Aliens require a much higher degree of teamwork than the marines. However aliens are not (and i didnt think were overly intended to be ) made for teamwork. They have no command and now no single gorge to direct the masses. All the marines have to do is be in the right place in the right numbers. The aliens need the right numbers , the right classes, and play with enough gusto to not run away a soon as their health gets chopped in half.
Without a doubt. There is no "so good it's broken" tactic. Victory goes to the team with the most skilled, most organised, and most strategically-thinking players. There is no tactic which can't be countered, and the emphasis away from the hives has worked out very very well (much better than I was expecting). Now, res nodes (and other strategic areas) are actually worth investing a lot of resources in defending. Now, the team which controlls the map controls the game (which is as it should be), whereas in 1.04 the team which controls the hive has already won, and just needs to mop up.
It's not to say it couldn't use a few tweaks, but they'll come in time. It's a fantastic improvement, and a great effort by all concerned <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
As for the things which still need a little bit of adjustment (imho):
1: redemption + devour is really broken. Seriously. It makes rescuing teammates virtually impossible.
2: there's less of an emphasis in playing with the team in mind, as Kharaa. Players who sacrifice their resources to build the hives and other vital facilities (which benefit everyone) are effectively punished by not being able to evolve to onos and fade as fast, whereas selfish teammates who are playing to get the most kills will be able to evolve faster (which does not benefit the team). It's not a maaajor issue, but it does make gorging a bit of a drag.
3: The Ping of Death. Please make it a cvar, or something. It's far more likely that a teamamte will hav eenough res for a hive, these days. I've played a game where I had enough res to gorge and get a hive, since I contributed significantly to the defense of our doomed hive, shall we say (*picks teeth*). Anyway, the Ping of Death stopped me getting to a free hive location since I was on the other side of the map. Seriously, if someone's holding up the game their teammates will take care of the problem by f4ing.
On the other hand, the removal of ping of deat will prolong many games a few minutes as the marines mop up the remaining aliens (and then there's still the odd vent afk'er). You can't count on the aliens F4'ing, because sometimes there's a few lamers who would rather sit around and spectate than let the marines win. You know: "You cant find the last alien and we don't F4 so youll have to F4 and then we win rofl lololol!!"
So, my guess is that removing ping-of-death will not really turn any alien defeats into a victory, but will needlessly prolong a lot of games.
As said before , NS2 is horribly balanced. All it takes is a good comm and organized marines to cleanse the map if the aliens have insufficient teamplay , even with sensories around. Hives fall VERY fast to HA HMG/GL/sieges without onos to defend them.
Turretspammed bases take a lot of alien teamwork to be destroyed on one try (which doesn't mean they need to be specialized... mass onos works well provide they all charge simultaneously)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there's less of an emphasis in playing with the team in mind, as Kharaa. Players who sacrifice their resources to build the hives and other vital facilities (which benefit everyone) are effectively punished by not being able to evolve to onos and fade as fast, whereas selfish teammates who are playing to get the most kills will be able to evolve faster (which does not benefit the team). It's not a maaajor issue, but it does make gorging a bit of a drag.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true that gorging isn't very rewarding , remember than cunningly placed OCs can generate res for you. Besides , gorge takes 10 res , skulk 2 , you can afford to ungorge and get your own ressources using your leet skulking skillz.
Also , people getting res for kills do contribute to their team to a degree ; by the way , this doesn't work if no hives and upgrade chambers are built. Selfish players can't win the game alone...
Lerks make marines lose their time by sporing armory humpers or sending random vanilla marines back to their spawn as soon as they leave their base.
By softening marines , they make them more vulnerable to OCs , which increases the gorges income.
Fades take out groups of vanilla marines in no time flat , indirectly protecting skulks and gorges.
Onos just block marines in their spawn. Map lockdown... the marines aren't going to win if they don't find a way to free themselves out of this death trap quickly.
However , taking random kills is certainly not the best way of using higher classes. Lerks are usefull to support others , and Fades are invaluable at defending nodes (blink in , nail knifing marine , blink to next attacked node/structure)
The Onos are the only effective hive defense against HA trains , so it is important to always have at least one living onos in the late game.
I have no problem with people making good use of their combat skills , but they need some to <i>deserve</i> their evolution. I don't hesitate yelling at a greedy onos dying before the DCs are up. To the new NSPlayer s : gorge and lay ressource towers , evolve to onos later !
You see, it should be balanced to that point where teamwork wins you the game. Balanced doesn't mean "full alien tech = full marine tech". Marines can't win a game if the aliens have 3 hives for some time. Read my advises how to knock stalements in the other thread <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe the early game is key to NS, commanders are too reluctant to send people out with shotguns just to take out res towers and gorges, and since the predominant alien tactic is res rushing, they normally secure an early res advantage and win.
I believe the early game is key to NS, commanders are too reluctant to send people out with shotguns just to take out res towers and gorges, and since the predominant alien tactic is res rushing, they normally secure an early res advantage and win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't have said it better. A res rush places RCs everywhere, but no defenses. A RC takes time to activate (1-2 minutes, don't know the exact time, it's been changed so often), and even more time before it's paid for itself. Take it out within that time and it's res lost. If you notice aliens getting up a lot of res towers, start sending out groups of marines to take 'em out. Keep 'em alive with a little medpack and ammo and you're hitting the aliens where it hurts. Skulks die so easily to shotguns that it's a joke, so take advantage of it and have one or two in your group.
I'll use my favorite tactic of "blame the commander" and say that part of the reason why marines get owned so hard right now is because commanders are uncertain about what they should do (and how couldn't they? It's a whole new game). What does an uncertain commander do? Strengthen his defense. The problem is that he should herd his marines out of base and start controlling the map. Remember to electrify remote nodes. A skulk can't really take 'em out, and a gorge is vulnerable if help arrives. Turtling around one or two nodes is a surefire way to lose a 2.0 game.
Somehow the changes to alien gameplay are much more intuitive (get RCs, get hives, get chambers, become evil lifeform and own marines), while the marines seemingly have to counter whatever the aliens are doing. The marines'll simply have to catch on. Give it a little time. If things aren't looking up by the beginning or middle of september, you have my permission to start worrying.
But how couldn't I be happy if aliens are winning all the time?
Resource tower activation <b>has been taken out</b>.
There is none.
Unless you are God, there is no way to know for us "members" if NS 2.0 is balanced or not in a time period of 4 days.
Let's just assume that after all he playtesting by top players and development, it's pretty even <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's it, short wasn't it <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cheers
The first 2.0 game I played, I thought: "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot !! What the hell did you do to the game ?!?!" ... but then after a few games, I started to notice that the Marines need teamwork more then ever, which is a good thing. Ramborines get their @$$3$ handed out to them, especially when the first Alien chamber is a Sensory .... So I salute the makers of NS, to a job well done.
To all you people out there who think it's unbalanced, get to know your friends ... They are called teamwork and adapting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Note to everyone who hasn't figured it out yet: the little notice in the top left corner that says how many resourcers each team has, IS YOUR FRIEND! You must make sure your team has more resourcers than the enemy. If you see an open nozzle and you've got 25 res, why not gorge and drop it. You'll be glad you did. Especially if you also take the time to defend it with an oc or sensory to cloak it. Your res will come faster. When you have 7 resourcers, you'll be able to go onos faster than you would if you had all just been saving on one resource nozzle from the start. One gorge is no longer enough. You now need at least two, ideally more. And don't forget the power of gorges to take down outposts. A group of 3 gorges can annihilate a phase gate in mere seconds, an undefended turret farm in under 30 seconds (assuming you can get close enough to bilebomb), and can even hold its own against a couple marines with spit, which is now actually kind of dangerous. I was hiding cloaked in a hive when a lone marine trotted in, and started to build a tf. 3 spits and he was down before he could draw his weapon.
Besides gorges, there's the importance of lerks, which as someone else pointed out do not umbra enough. They're in love with their spores and forget that they're a support unit, not an offensive unit. Onos last twice as long when they're in umbra. Just point at the onos' target, and umbra once every 3 seconds. It's easy and fun to see the marines go down, and not your teammate who just wasted 100 res on a suicide run! That you could have prevented! Umbra! darnit! Save the spores until the onos runs off to heal, and then keep them busy and hurt until he gets back.
So, the point is this: the alien strategy involves being a team player, and using your res effectively. Effective meaning, in order to secure more res and take res away from the marines. Onos is not the be-all-end-all, and dies frustratingly easily without support, especially on one hive. Which is what you'll have if you don't use that 25 res you start with to go secure a resource node. You move faster than marines do, and an organized team can put a resourcer on every nozzle on the map within 1 minute of game start, assuming you have an appropriately sized team. Don't assume someone else will do it. Don't assume that because there's one gorge, he's taking care of it. He gets res as fast as you do, and he's probably spent all of it on chambers and is sitting at 3 res waiting for it to trickle in. If you've got more than 25 res and you're a skulk, build. It will save your bacon.
Anyway, once the teams figure out how to best play their roles, the game looks like it will be really, really balanced. Which makes me very happy. I've seen games in which the outcome was swinging back and forth between the two teams with various pushes and defenses, which makes it really exciting and fun. This build is great.
I dont like redem, it makes it too easy for aliens once ppl evolve to onos they have it for the res of the game or u have to do **** stuff to kill em which u shouldnt have to do.