Feedback On Kharaa Third Hive Abilities
Dread
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
<div class="IPBDescription">neverending round</div> If I remember correctly, third hive was supposed to practically end the game and give Khara their most powerful abilities. Currently when Kharaa have their three hives up and running, marines are usually cornered in their base with one or two(at max) resource nodes. I know we are still learning but I have observed that on pubs it takes a long time from Kharaa to actually end the game. Too long compared to the duration of early -and midgames. Even though Kharaa would manage to make cordinated attacks with every player and class contributing to the sieging, it still seems to take a big chunk of playing time, which is the opposite of Flayras goal of 'fast paced and action packed games'.
I'm sure that developers are aware of this and it might pass if pubs are just given some more time but it just as well might not. I think that it's better to make changes on 3rd hive abilities instead of the cost of turrets or grenade launchers, which might have negative effects on the balance of early/midgame.
So if we just take a look at Kharaas game-ending abilities.
Skulks Xenocide is powerful ability but it's too difficult to use properly for most of the people and hence people just ignore it most of the time. If you can't kill even one marine with your Xenocide whereas you could have killed two with your bite, what's the point?
Gorges Web is all fine and dandy but let's face it; it doesn't have much use in the end game but securing that last little spot from jetpackers and in occasional confrontations with marines. Webs surely wont end the games faster and imho are not nearly as usefull as bilebomb, which is midgame weapon.
Lerks Primal Scream is great backup weapon and I can only blame players for not using it enough. Maybe because there is not enough visual indication that Primal Scream is actually doing something.
Fades Acid Rocket is good but if I have missed something, it still has the same values as in 1.04 and yet it has been moved in 4th slot. It doesn't feel so earth shattering warrior classes 3rd hive ability.
Onos' charge is pretty fine as it is, but not everyone can be Onos. Partly because entrances to marine bases are only so big and partly because they cost 100res.
If you think this is a Kharaa-buffing thread, you have mistaken. I'm only trying to figure out what could be done to long endgame showdowns. Now I'm not saying what to do or suggesting how to make changes. I'm just merely pointing my little furry finger towards the cause and solution of what <i>I</i> think is making rounds last forever.
Regards
...oh screw that crap. I'm Dread, y0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm sure that developers are aware of this and it might pass if pubs are just given some more time but it just as well might not. I think that it's better to make changes on 3rd hive abilities instead of the cost of turrets or grenade launchers, which might have negative effects on the balance of early/midgame.
So if we just take a look at Kharaas game-ending abilities.
Skulks Xenocide is powerful ability but it's too difficult to use properly for most of the people and hence people just ignore it most of the time. If you can't kill even one marine with your Xenocide whereas you could have killed two with your bite, what's the point?
Gorges Web is all fine and dandy but let's face it; it doesn't have much use in the end game but securing that last little spot from jetpackers and in occasional confrontations with marines. Webs surely wont end the games faster and imho are not nearly as usefull as bilebomb, which is midgame weapon.
Lerks Primal Scream is great backup weapon and I can only blame players for not using it enough. Maybe because there is not enough visual indication that Primal Scream is actually doing something.
Fades Acid Rocket is good but if I have missed something, it still has the same values as in 1.04 and yet it has been moved in 4th slot. It doesn't feel so earth shattering warrior classes 3rd hive ability.
Onos' charge is pretty fine as it is, but not everyone can be Onos. Partly because entrances to marine bases are only so big and partly because they cost 100res.
If you think this is a Kharaa-buffing thread, you have mistaken. I'm only trying to figure out what could be done to long endgame showdowns. Now I'm not saying what to do or suggesting how to make changes. I'm just merely pointing my little furry finger towards the cause and solution of what <i>I</i> think is making rounds last forever.
Regards
...oh screw that crap. I'm Dread, y0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
The power of xenocide depends on the map. On larger maps, where it takes a long time to get to the marine base, it's less useful.
Web is still useful, especially against HA. It's just overshadowed by stomp.
Acid rocket does seem a bit weak though I'm not sure why...
I would like to see Web as Hive 2 again but Bile bomb is very usefull as Hive 2, Its hard thing to balance!
I would like to see Web as Hive 2 again but Bile bomb is very usefull as Hive 2, Its hard thing to balance!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excactly. Web should have some special purpose in endgame base busting. For example jamming turrets and buildings.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maian+Posted on Aug 5 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Posted on Aug 5 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO, endgames last too long because gorges can't bilebomb effectively enough. Gorge gangs with lerk support can take out a marine base if the marines don't have grenade launchers. However if the marines DO have grenade launchers, oni are forced to charge and try to devour the marine with the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that marines can often support several grenade launchers with their one res node if they have just fortified their base with turrets in advance.
Turrets just mow down anything that comes in. Xenociding skulks won't even get close. Webs are taken out by GL. Gorges can't get close enough to bilebomb. Just the presence of turrets prevents an onos from getting in and doing any real damage because he can't get over the turrets without getting stuck (and subsequently killed)!
Furthermore, 2 GL marines can stand at the armory and just launch grenades constantly.
It seems a lot of end-games go on forever because the aliens are too busy trying to do the onos rush/redeem strategy. Against a built up position, when they know you're coming, that just doesn't work.
Edit: That should be "doesn't work well." It does work..eventually. But that's the point of this thread.
Having the lions share of the <b>res</b> wins you the game in 2.0, not having all the hives.
Just a thought. Though I've honestly never had that much of a problem as an alien finishing off marines with 3 hives. As long as you have max upgrades, the res to support fades and onii, and some lerk support, you should be fine. Honestly, I think part of the problem is pansy onii taking redemption to preserve their own hides, instead of carapace or regeneration to keep them in the battle longer and helping out their team. Aliens require teamwork too, even in the endgame. Unless you're losing, don't take redemption with powerful lifeforms. You're just wasting time and effort.
Why not switch web and bile bomb, give bile bomb a larger arc, and make it so it shuts down the function of buildings when it hits (like turrets, the factory, or the observatory)
Leap into the base, xeno at their armory. I normally get 4 kills per xenocide.
I now do this when i can to finish the game quicker, also charge is the most useful counter to turret farming I've found.
Why not?
Hence leave the abilites alone.
With good communication among aliens, the second hive will have started before the com drops the 3rd or 4th resource tower. With some good skulking, hive three goes up as soon as hive two finishes.
In my experience, this is where some marines start exiting or F4ing. Hive three defeats are rare but if they occur, then it's down to communication.
It amazes me how we can have theads demanding for increasing the aliens ability, the same day as nerfing the abilities.
End game isnt as hard as the other phases, but it's by no means a walkover. Assumption is the mother of all f*** ups. Stop taking alien victories for granted and keep the pressure on!
Make bile bomb the 3rd hive ability, and make it shut down marine structures momentarily, and voila, when aliens control the map, they end the game. Simple.
moral of the story, players learn to play better. it is STILL less than one week from release. do you honestly think, that in that short short period of time, that you can in anyway, possibly claim to know, the best possible way to end the game quickly. DO YOU REALLY THINK SO.
on the other hand. I have seen the game for over 2 months now. I have seen extremely fast games. I know they are possible. I know hive 3 kills rines fast when done right.
Moral of the story, stop whining, the game has bearly been out. This issue clearly has to do with the players and not game balance/imbalance.
Make bile bomb the 3rd hive ability, and make it shut down marine structures momentarily, and voila, when aliens control the map, they end the game. Simple. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, Kharaa have a vital need for bile-bomb at hive 2. It's one of the few ways that they can deal with the new and improved electrified turret plantations. Remove bile-bomb and all you have left is lerk spikes and umbra, neither of which are very effective.
Web, if used well, is a great ability. Especially in 2.0 where we have jump packs instead of jetpacks, and is a great finishing ability as it allows you to seal the marines in their base for the two or three seconds the aliens need to set up their big finale attack. I think it works great as a third hive ability.
Very good point, didn't think of that, back to the drawing board <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Having the lions share of the <b>res</b> wins you the game in 2.0, not having all the hives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except HA/HMG/GL and full upgrades means utter defeat for the aliens.
If the aliens get such a huge map and resource advantage they should have no trouble mopping up the Marines. Apparently this isn't the case right now.
-JohnnySmash
Aliens who can't coordinate to take out marines right as hive2 finishes before marines start getting the stalemate equipment out (mass sentries and some gl's and shotties) will not do very well against the stalemate equipment either, despite having a massive res advantage for the entire 45 minute game.
Full tech marines:
- Armor Upgrade: Vanilla armor takes 2x as much to waste. This makes skulks neigh useless.
- Weapon Upgrade: Further increases the effectiveness of turrets and reduces skulk lifetime.
- Heavy Armor: Immune to Lerk Spore, can take a massive beating before going down. When equipped with welders, a group is invincible. I've seen squads of 4 just walk around with welders out and smash anything in the way.
- HMG: Death cannon.
- GL: Super death cannon. Counters webs and structures.
Full tech aliens:
- Web: What's the point of this? If I'm at full tech I shouldn't be on the defense. Have never seen a marine get stuck in web.
- Acid Rocket: It's nice, but fades are a rare sight nonetheless.
- Primal Scream: Limited. Useful, but very limited.
- Xenocide: Boomie! Would be more useful as a hive 2 ability to smash turret farms early on.
- Charge: Base smasher. I usually end up stuck, or 1/2 the time charge doesn't even work for me.
- Also can have a combination of active (Redemption, cloaking) and passive (Pheromones, regen) upgrades, which are no where near as effective as marine upgrades.
What's the point of this?
When the marines are at full tech, they can either effectively counter everything the aliens throw at them, no matter how hard they try. They turn into a moving death squad. All of their upgrades aren't "smart" upgrades like primal scream, they're stupid, easy to use, instantly active upgrades that squash anything in the way.
I totally agree, Ive seen this in practice now in a few games, if the marines are cornered 70% of alien team goes gorge, and thew rest lerk
Bile/Umbra/Primal Scream takes down turret farms. And if you cant manage that then you can at least take down arms lab and have a few seconds with no marine upgrades to worry about.
Wow.....someone's in a terrible mood today <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember Ken-keep this civil. Nobody here <i>wants</i> this thread to descend to that level. opinions Are quite a wonderous thing....everybody happens to have their own. If it's your strict opinion that web is more powerful on the whole than bile bomb is, then so be it. Nothing that anybody here <i>says</i> will change your mind.
In short, please just agree to disagree. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It was a 12v12 game, but for some reason there weren't 12 onos attacking our base (and if there were, it probably wouldn't have made any difference). So something needs to be done so aliens can destroy marines even if marines fortify in their base with GLs and start spamming... The key could be somekind of special time "bonus": say if aliens capture 3 hives and all the RTs in the map (except marine node), they get super-strong health/speed-wise in like 2 minutes so they can easily obliterate fortified marines.
Latest addition: Okay, okay, I noticed the fault in my suggestion. Marines could just relocate to a hive and then spam. So just make it so that if aliens get 2 hives and all nodes, they become super strong etc...