<!--QuoteBegin--Ben128+Aug 6 2003, 09:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ben128 @ Aug 6 2003, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find that people at end game are, for some ungodly reason, AFRAID to die?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Its crazy, as long as you own the map you can afforde to loss anything but the bigger classes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You give marines resources everytime you die, hence making them stronger. This is part of the "charge in and die" problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Posted on Aug 6 2003, 08:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Posted on Aug 6 2003, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->then you stand just around the corner and let the splash damage work on the buildings/turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh you mean around the corner where grenades bounce constantly? You mean around the corner where you block the way from Fades/Oni and hence making it easier for marines to lmg rush you?
Yes, people do that but endgame still lasts too long.
Third hive abilities are for base smashing AND also to try and save the game if marines push you back to just your hives and their "free" RT.
Web for instance is a HA counter as it slows them down so much its not funny. Primal Scream is meant to help counter a rush when you can no longer spore things to death.
Xenocide is god for baserushes. People need to learn to use it. However, people don't because they're still under the delusion that one onos can smash a base. It doesn't happen. I don't even see two onos smashing a base. 10 marines with LMGs and a few turrets and just normal armour can hold off 2 onos so long that its not even funny.
IMHO aliens do not apply their third hive abilities properly. As primarily gorge player, all I see at endgame (as I build up our mandatory movement and def tower to help the energy/health situation) is a few onos, who go in one at a time, devour one person, flee, and then the next onos does the same.
Fantastic. They run off to devour, we have 2-3 marines less in base, then when the marine is digested and has respawned.......they eat him again. Hence the stalemate. If there was a concurrent skulk bomb rush, this would not happen. You simply cannot weld fast enough, so either the turrets go or the men do. Once the base is free of men, its an easy task for the onos to rush the IP or TF. Camping outside the room for 20 minutes, going on one man onos raids is pointless and inefficient, and only encourages the marines to wait it out while res trickles in from their ONE rt.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about how bile bomb is the answer to all our problems. I mean I don't mean to be nasty but did the pts and vets even USE grenade launchers?
We DO use bile bomb in games, we KNOW that it IS effective IF you can a) actually hit the structure and b) survive long enough to get more than 2 or 3 off.
a) The range on bile bomb just isn't enough. From one of the entrances to the marine base on tanith you can't even reach the upper ledge, which tends, in these situations, to be covered in turrets.
b) It's one brave, or incredibly lucky gorge, that manages to get through the 'nade spam to get in bile bomb range. Once he gets there he is immediatly targetted by most of the gren spammers, not to mention the turrets. If he wants to live, chances are he may get off 1 or 2 bile bombs before having to race for safety (if any grenades score direct hits then he's screwed anyway). If he wants to get more than that off, he has to die. Trouble is, he's not going to get off more than 3 or 4 which ain't enough to take down a struture. He dies, and the marines weld their stuff back. Using multiple gorges in unison helps, but again there's that damn grenade spam.
Thats what it ends up coming down to: grenades, which the aliens have no counter to. Spam away at the entrances to a marine base and nothing gets close because it dies before it gets there. The only times I've seen turretted/gl spammed marine start locations go down is when someone got fed up and recycled the armoury and turret factories. We're not noobs ok? We are doing what you tell us is the "right stratagy". It ain't working.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 7 2003, 07:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 7 2003, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats what it ends up coming down to: grenades, which the aliens have no counter to. Spam away at the entrances to a marine base and nothing gets close because it dies before it gets there. The only times I've seen turretted/gl spammed marine start locations go down is when someone got fed up and recycled the armoury and turret factories. We're not noobs ok? We are doing what you tell us is the "right stratagy". It ain't working. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree 100% with your post. That's about the most realistic description that I can come up with. Gorge is in no way an answer to granade spam: 3 GLs spamming a doorway from a 30 degree angle simply can't be countered with silly slow gorges who probably don't even make it past the granades, let alone have time to shoot off bilebombs before getting wasted by LMGers. People underestimate GLs damage and greatly overestimate gorges ability to get past a nadespam. Even if 1 gets past and throws 2 bilebombs, what good does it do if there is a welder guy who fixes the sentries in no time? GL spamming with excessive turret farming is a llamity in need of a fix, not some "strategy" that is easily counterable, but we are just so stupid we dont understand and try out its counters...
Statswhoring is the real culprit. Or just having too good a time to want to risk dieing.
Aliens often seem unwilling to make the final charge, the problem is that they are affraid to die in an attack. What usually happens is that the marines get a ton of turrets in their base, then spam all the grenades at the entryways that they can possibly muster. But to be honest, there is usually more than one entry to the base and covering them all is grenades is not truely effective against onos.
However most of the time 4 carpaces Onos will still take down half the base including any marines in it if they just group up and go together, and stay there until they are all dead or the base is, the remaining aliens can easily prevent a rebuild until they are back to full strength.
Instead, what happens is that the Onos run in and out of base taking pot-devours at the marines.
I'm not sure the problem is with the 3 hive abilities (although they may need tweaking). Compare alien and marine endfights:
Marines spawn a lot faster, and they all spawn in the same place. Any res the commander has can be instantly converted into firepower, whereas aliens have to wait to evolve. Freshly spawned marines can still do a lot of damage to any alien class, especially with upgrades, whereas a freshly spawned skulk is obsolete by the end of the game, and will probably die before he can even get close to the attacking marines.
Even when aliens have complete control of the map, they can't take full advantage of that res flow, since they have to wait so long to evolve. Every marine killed equals a short wait to respawn, and then running to go and pick up their gun again. Every alien killed involves respawning and then reevolving (and just think, its a slower process, and it costs a lot more res). And even if those marines don't have any res or gun to pick up, they can still shoot there machine gun and do an unpleasant amount of damage before they die. A lot more damage than an obsolete skulk can.
So I don't think the long end games we're seeing are entirely down to the level 3 abilities. Although giving the Onos a level 3 game ender attack might be an idea. If you have 3 hives and more than a few of your players can afford to go Onos, aliens have probably won, and just need something to finish the marines off.
hey Pege, in that game that lasted 3 hours, i was in it...and you missed a few things that I might want to say.... first of all, it lasted 4 hours, not three. and second, not 25 turrets, 10 turrets blocking one door, 10 turrets blocking the other, and another 10 in the base. and it wasnt Hera, either... i forgot the mapname at the moment, but I do remember that its the one with the famous double-res Reactor Room.... well, the turrets actually made a WALL so that nothing could get in, nothing could get out.....literally. not even a SKULK could get past it. now, this may seem easily defeated, but it was 12 vs 12, and each of those 12 rines were HA/GL all with welders. They just sat and welded the turret walls....just sat there, nade spamming the hallways so you couldnt touch the walls, and those who did couldnt get in because of the wall. now, the inside of the base was much worse. they had 3 armorys, 4 arms labs, fully upgraded in every way possible, 2 observatorys, 2 sieges, 2 TFs and a comm with so much res he didnt know what to do with it besides scan scan scan so the sieges could do their job. the game got SO OLD that some rines F4'd then joined the Alien team as Spys!!!! they all went gorge, and blocked all hallways so no onos could get through, a fade couldnt even blink out, a gorge would have a helluva time, and a skulk might get his way through EVENTUALLY. the newly- sabotaged aliens couldnt even get to the rine base to try and end the stalemate! and even if they did.... with what? bile bomb? no gorges could get there. onos's charge? sorry, onos is too big. lerk's umbra and a skulk? even a lerk was too big. a skulks xenocide? the nade spam and welding HA's would keep that at bay. After 4 hours of this, an alien named Pr0M3theus, which is me, F4'd and switched to the rine team, then all the rine spys went rines again and the game was won for the rines.
this, IMHO, is just simply pathetic. a limit for turrets possible is a good suggestion, or adding the ability for gorges to recycle their buildings.
Comments
You give marines resources everytime you die, hence making them stronger. This is part of the "charge in and die" problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Posted on Aug 6 2003, 08:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Posted on Aug 6 2003, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->then you stand just around the corner and let the splash damage work on the buildings/turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh you mean around the corner where grenades bounce constantly? You mean around the corner where you block the way from Fades/Oni and hence making it easier for marines to lmg rush you?
Yes, people do that but endgame still lasts too long.
Web for instance is a HA counter as it slows them down so much its not funny. Primal Scream is meant to help counter a rush when you can no longer spore things to death.
Xenocide is god for baserushes. People need to learn to use it. However, people don't because they're still under the delusion that one onos can smash a base. It doesn't happen. I don't even see two onos smashing a base. 10 marines with LMGs and a few turrets and just normal armour can hold off 2 onos so long that its not even funny.
IMHO aliens do not apply their third hive abilities properly. As primarily gorge player, all I see at endgame (as I build up our mandatory movement and def tower to help the energy/health situation) is a few onos, who go in one at a time, devour one person, flee, and then the next onos does the same.
Fantastic. They run off to devour, we have 2-3 marines less in base, then when the marine is digested and has respawned.......they eat him again. Hence the stalemate. If there was a concurrent skulk bomb rush, this would not happen. You simply cannot weld fast enough, so either the turrets go or the men do. Once the base is free of men, its an easy task for the onos to rush the IP or TF. Camping outside the room for 20 minutes, going on one man onos raids is pointless and inefficient, and only encourages the marines to wait it out while res trickles in from their ONE rt.
We DO use bile bomb in games, we KNOW that it IS effective IF you can a) actually hit the structure and b) survive long enough to get more than 2 or 3 off.
a) The range on bile bomb just isn't enough. From one of the entrances to the marine base on tanith you can't even reach the upper ledge, which tends, in these situations, to be covered in turrets.
b) It's one brave, or incredibly lucky gorge, that manages to get through the 'nade spam to get in bile bomb range. Once he gets there he is immediatly targetted by most of the gren spammers, not to mention the turrets. If he wants to live, chances are he may get off 1 or 2 bile bombs before having to race for safety (if any grenades score direct hits then he's screwed anyway). If he wants to get more than that off, he has to die. Trouble is, he's not going to get off more than 3 or 4 which ain't enough to take down a struture. He dies, and the marines weld their stuff back. Using multiple gorges in unison helps, but again there's that damn grenade spam.
Thats what it ends up coming down to: grenades, which the aliens have no counter to. Spam away at the entrances to a marine base and nothing gets close because it dies before it gets there. The only times I've seen turretted/gl spammed marine start locations go down is when someone got fed up and recycled the armoury and turret factories. We're not noobs ok? We are doing what you tell us is the "right stratagy". It ain't working.
I agree 100% with your post. That's about the most realistic description that I can come up with. Gorge is in no way an answer to granade spam: 3 GLs spamming a doorway from a 30 degree angle simply can't be countered with silly slow gorges who probably don't even make it past the granades, let alone have time to shoot off bilebombs before getting wasted by LMGers. People underestimate GLs damage and greatly overestimate gorges ability to get past a nadespam. Even if 1 gets past and throws 2 bilebombs, what good does it do if there is a welder guy who fixes the sentries in no time? GL spamming with excessive turret farming is a llamity in need of a fix, not some "strategy" that is easily counterable, but we are just so stupid we dont understand and try out its counters...
Aliens often seem unwilling to make the final charge, the problem is that they are affraid to die in an attack. What usually happens is that the marines get a ton of turrets in their base, then spam all the grenades at the entryways that they can possibly muster. But to be honest, there is usually more than one entry to the base and covering them all is grenades is not truely effective against onos.
However most of the time 4 carpaces Onos will still take down half the base including any marines in it if they just group up and go together, and stay there until they are all dead or the base is, the remaining aliens can easily prevent a rebuild until they are back to full strength.
Instead, what happens is that the Onos run in and out of base taking pot-devours at the marines.
Marines spawn a lot faster, and they all spawn in the same place. Any res the commander has can be instantly converted into firepower, whereas aliens have to wait to evolve. Freshly spawned marines can still do a lot of damage to any alien class, especially with upgrades, whereas a freshly spawned skulk is obsolete by the end of the game, and will probably die before he can even get close to the attacking marines.
Even when aliens have complete control of the map, they can't take full advantage of that res flow, since they have to wait so long to evolve. Every marine killed equals a short wait to respawn, and then running to go and pick up their gun again. Every alien killed involves respawning and then reevolving (and just think, its a slower process, and it costs a lot more res). And even if those marines don't have any res or gun to pick up, they can still shoot there machine gun and do an unpleasant amount of damage before they die. A lot more damage than an obsolete skulk can.
So I don't think the long end games we're seeing are entirely down to the level 3 abilities. Although giving the Onos a level 3 game ender attack might be an idea. If you have 3 hives and more than a few of your players can afford to go Onos, aliens have probably won, and just need something to finish the marines off.
P.S. Charge is not a game ending attack.
this, IMHO, is just simply pathetic. a limit for turrets possible is a good suggestion, or adding the ability for gorges to recycle their buildings.
30 turrets to keep marine spawn alive.. and a game going for 4 hours..
what makes me laugh is that you say the marines won..
[QUOTE]and a comm with so much res he didnt know what to do with it besides scan scan scan