Are Sensory Chambers Really Incomparable To Dcs?
serados
Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18527Members
Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18527Members
<div class="IPBDescription">SoF > Redemption?</div> There's a server I keep playing on. I had ALWAYS managed to slap down a SC and the kharaa win the game. However, a few games I went there the same people (Note: People, not Person) always said that SCs suck, even when I explained that the new Scent of Fear is changed into a Motion Tracking system. They say that they want redemption and build a DC. With first hive DC I find that I can't pick out where the marines are and get a lot less kills than usual. They say that SoF is for n00bs and say to find out where marines are just listen to their footsteps. I said that when you are attacking you can't possibly hear rines' footsteps as the attack sound would drain out the rines' footsteps. They sorta ignored it and we continued the game. Soon, second hive was up. I requested a SC but one of the people who was a gorge slapped a MC instead. Never mind, I thought. I'll just get Adrenaline and go Onos, since I stomp/stomp/gore or devour. Soon someone requested that I secure the final hive location, currently with Turrets and Siege Turrets. I go in with some skulks for additional power and we start rampaging the place. The sound of the skulks biting, umbra, and the turrets firing drained out any sound of movement. Suddenly there was this group of about 6 HAs equipped with HMG and Shotguns and they just owned us all. I eventually got killed by 3 Shotgunners swarming me. I said that I would have known that the rines were coming and be more prepared if I had SoF, but they said that SoF DOES NOT WORK AT ALL, even though I had many rounds of slaughtering with SoF on previous games and servers. I tried to reason with them but they still said to listen to the rines' footsteps. A person steps in to mediate and said that SCs and DCs are both good depending on the way the person uses the upgrades. Next round I go gorge and slap down an SC without their consent. I told them to get SoF and try it out for themselves but they got Cloaking instead, even though I had only got one SC and was going for RTs. Their kill rates decreased and after the whole team got owned by the rines they blamed it on me. I said that they weren't open to new ideas and didn't try to get SoF, thus not giving me and other SC supporters a chance to say anything. I went rines next round and owned the whole kharaa team that was with DC supporters. They got DCs for their first chamber while our comm and secured 5 res nodes and got for us MT. Those people who hated SCs/SoF all exclaimed 'WTH' and promptly got killed by our team.
So are SCs really weaker than DCs? Well I'll say that SCs are clearly better for SoF and because DCs at first hive simply reduces your ability to track down marines. Skulks' role is to attack the marines and take lightly-defended posts before they accompany the heavier classes to take down the rine base so SoF helps a lot in fufilling that role. As a gorge where you have to be careful and not make a wrong move into a rine colony SoF helps as it gives you advance warning about the rines' location. There's nothing wrong in getting SC as first hive and those skeptical people at that servers firmly believe in the old DC > MC > SC chamber route while I go for SC > DC > MC. So, comments/flames, anyone?
So are SCs really weaker than DCs? Well I'll say that SCs are clearly better for SoF and because DCs at first hive simply reduces your ability to track down marines. Skulks' role is to attack the marines and take lightly-defended posts before they accompany the heavier classes to take down the rine base so SoF helps a lot in fufilling that role. As a gorge where you have to be careful and not make a wrong move into a rine colony SoF helps as it gives you advance warning about the rines' location. There's nothing wrong in getting SC as first hive and those skeptical people at that servers firmly believe in the old DC > MC > SC chamber route while I go for SC > DC > MC. So, comments/flames, anyone?
Comments
Scent of fear is not like 1.04 where only injured marines show up- NOW ALL MARINES SHOW UP IN RANGE. the level of sensory chamber just increases the range. i find lvl2 the minimum required, lvl3 is the best. don't bother buying the sof upgrade when you only have 1 sensory, its not worth it.
Both chambers are good, while defense is more useful for redemption or regeneration (the latter for lerks) than carapace at the moment. It really depends how the game unfolds. If you're going defense, you're anticipating possible 2 hive lockdowns and aggressive play from the marines. Of course, if the Kharaa don't know how to play as a team while the marines do (which is sometimes the case), then slaughter ensues. Sensory is half defensive and half offensive as a chamber - SOF is offensive, as you can plan attacks - while the cloaking gives you that defensive capability through ambushes, etc. The biggest problem with sensory chambers is that there's no way to take out a good 2 hive lockdown. If it happens, you're finished. When you plop down that sensory, you'd better make sure that you get a second hive up as soon as you can.
If they really dont want to get an SC they must be out of their minds....SoF can save your hive if you are guarding it,SoF can save yuou when you are setting up a cloak camp,SoF can help Oni track that big bunch of HA,SoF can help that Lerk with his spores
There's simply too many good things to say about SoF,it has become the counterpart of MT to the marines,I pity them for not adapting to 2.0 <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->.
PS they must be stupid to want to get Onos at hive 1,they are friggin useless unless you have to stop that 2 hive lockdown.
EDIT -ack its serados from PAGN!!!!
I like MC personally, silence for skulks & fades, celerity for onos & fades, adrenaline for lerks & fades... It gives all aliens a needed mobility bonus. It's also great to defend a hive with. Drop them near the hive and near oc's. If they attack a formation of OC, the marines will know the enhanced ROF of the OC and the bonus to energy regeneration is welcome.
The other chambers are also excellent. SC give you wallhack & cloack & pheromone tracking. It's also the chamber that is required to lay a deathtrap of oc.
The dc gives redemp to gorges & to lame onosses, gives the immortallity factor to lerks...
If someone dares to say one chamber rules all other, It's a fool.
Still , I prefer to have a carapace as early fade or regen as lerk... DCs first is a viable choice , lessens the early losses of higher species , gorges , lerks and fades.
Sensory first games tend to be longer and painfull while mov first games are quickly decided.
However after many days this is found to be NOT TRUE!
Yea u get SC win from most games but u can win EVEN BETTER with DC.
You said u got destroyed by 6 Marines HA HMGs? PLS if u got 2 hives and ONUS ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO LOSE TO THEM! no matter how good their aiming is get redempt + celerity they come out stomp eat gorg some Turrets and redempt u go. THe redempt as onus is juz too powerful. You can even survive 90% of the time when theres 5-6 GLs/HMG shootnig with 15 Turrets u will oso be able to remdept safely.
Hence that 6 HAs HMGs shd be ants to onus AND PLS if u got onus juz get marine RT down!!!!! then it slow down their HA HMGs and u can onus ownage for as long as u want.
So u think SC rocks cos of SoF?
Yea SC rules in the start...It gives u kills ambushes on little weak 0weap/0armor rines cos u jump down bite bite they dead u get res. but when the game proceeds? you'll realised that SC is the bane of aliens..
GUYS WHO TINK SC RULES AND DC SUX READ HERE!
SC WILL NOT ALLOW you to kill marines with rush and win in 5-10mins and it meant tat it'll be a drag game. Hence u'll most probably face "2 Hive VS HA HMG/GL" Situation (This happens most of the time now)
Lets say u get SC.
You get SoF and cloak by SCs = ownage for first half of game.
So After SC, ya 2nd hive is either MC or DC
Let's say u get DC this is wad likely to happen when theres a WISE COMM! (take map as ns_ecplise)
Hive : Maintainence, Ecplise Command
Chambers : Sensory + Defense
Now ignores those cloaking OCs as that freaking bunch of 6-7 marines can take it down easily with GLs/HMG and med + welder.
They reach ya Ecplise hive. Started building and u all 2-3 onus fades skuls all attack together. The result will be most likely that MARINES able to get PG and TF up but 1-2 got devoured and onus redempted skuls dead fades redmepted/dead. NOW the marines use PG to enter AGAIN (they can spawn and enter fast) but now the red health onus haf to wait at maintaince hive to heal first then byu the time the 2 onus finish healing SEIGE up! marines REINFORCED the ecplise then at this time ONUS started moveing ON FOOT to ecplise. WITHOUT MC no celerity canot teleport. By the time u get therer, hive down u left with 1 hive. (This happened several times ON THAT SERVER SERADOS PLAYED)
Now for the MC
U can teleport in time to save hive but SO WAD? u got no redmeption/cara and u're juz a little weak ONUS what can u do to a whole squard of HMGs HA? yea u cn devoure but u'll die even be4 u can get out alive. hence it allows marines to get the hvie down oso..
BUT IF U PLAYED DC+MC
u can redmept well and get from hive to hive easily saving u time and lettting u win.
So guys would u wan to have a starting ownage and come to a point where u'll regret becos ya onus haf no MC to teleport back on time and hive down or no DC to redempt and even the devoured marines is freed then hvie down!? OR the Alien team tat can save both hives with ease and heal devour redempt safely?
NOTE: DC+MC become even more useful when u face 2 grps of marines going to both hive at same time..u can get 1 gr down but too slow to get the other..they can phase in and helped easily. yea sof may rule as MT counter but still all tat SC does is "nullify" the MTs effect and doesn't allow u to save ya hive.
OH YA even in middle of game no DC = use fade and prepare to die =p
cos marines teamwork will kill a no redmept fade EASILY! (u'll cry as ya res goes down the drain=p)
DC, gives you much better carapace than v1.04, if you get 3 DCs up really quickly at the start of the game, organize a skulk rush, and you can win it from the start. It's hard killing a skulk with 75HP and 40Armor.
Sensory Chambers are a more drawn out game because its about dominating the map, although I've seen skulk rushes using sensory chambers near the marine base, they don't always work, but over time the marines end up defending their base rather than going out to find resources.
I personally must say that if I do have a choice, its usually movement.
Why you ask?
It's because building an obs and scanning your sensory chambers is such a hard counter that it makes SC completely worthless.
SoF isn't really that good. Having some good skulks on your team who parasite the marines is probably the most useful thing in the world for early intell.
However, on pub servers, I must say, when the marine team isn't nearly as organized, SC <b>rules</b>. Scanner sweep isn't utilized to it's fullest potential on pub servers, and it pretty much creates an giant **** wall of death for marines.
Overall, the chambers are fairly balanced in the 2.0 build, however, SC is STILL weak.
I would really like it if the SC chamber had it so it gave an upgrade that powered your attack by +10%,+20%,+30%, respectivly.
This way, using an SC and still be offensive would be extreamlly viable.
LMAO. If they've locked down one hive then it IS very possible for them to push to another, and then a third. Moreso when they can see every structure on the way.
Without SC, the early game is dominated by marines, and they expand faster than you can - they can also see all your off towers and rts and cap them from spots where the towers cant shoot back. Also in a lot of maps there are corridors where skulks cannot hide as effectively, and are relying on SC to allow a solid ambush. With DC or MC first they rely on speed and luck to get ONE bite in, whereas with SC you need only hug a roof near a sensory.
That is not to say you CANNOT win with DC/MC first. You can. However its easier to expand aggressively with SC. And it also cloaks your hive, which means barring very good rambos, noone will find the hive. As opposed to a shotgun rush to the hive locations and spotting it easily because its not cloaked.
Mid-late game sensory is all but worthless compared to early game. The marines have motion tracking, they've better weaponry, so ambushes and cloaked ot are revealed by a short burst of fire, gls spam the area, then the welder fixes the HA.
Sensory first, you can camp right outside the marine base, panic them, disorientate them, and force them to come up with countermeasures SOONER. This is a colossal expenditure of res and while they're doing that the aliens can cap every rt on the map.
On clan servers or pub games with good, competent players, then you can afford to go, say, DC/MC at first hive because you don't need SC to help you cloak. Second hive should be SC while you can still use it, and third hive is whatever you left out at hive 1.
Sensory last effectively throws out any advantage it would have gained you.
Sensories, can be great first chambers, but it annoys the heck out of me when people drop them all right by the hive, they need to be placed spread out to either help defend areas. or help skulks launch attacks on marines.
Advantages:
D First
-> Regeneration saves skulks long trips to gorges
-> Regeneration REALLY saves lerks
-> Regeneration is needed for the effective early pre-hive fade
-> Regeneration/carapace helps gorges extremely large amounts when in combat and healing ocs
-> Carapace is okay for skulks
-> They provide good healing stations, and make extra strong WoLs
M First
-> Celerity makes skulks really really scary scouts and head-on attackers
-> Silence makes sick ambush skulks (except for the stupid minimap trick)
-> Adrenaline gorge gangs are SICK
-> Celerity gorges run fast!
-> Adrenaline lerks get you more spores per minute!
-> Celerity lerks can fly 1.04 style!
-> Can protect hives more easily when second one is going up
-> Seriously helps against shotty rushes
S First
-> Cloaking field rocks marines up and down and all around
-> SoF makes skulks super good, both as scouts and marine chomping freaks of nature
-> Offensive cloaking fields can win the game early
-> Cloaked hives are easier to guard (including against shotty rushes)
-> Cloaking can save gorges' butts, as can SoF
-> Cloaking fields make it more likely marines will die to OCs
-> Pheromones allows skulks who chew marines to taunt them with the fact that they're using pheromones
-> Pheormones plus early oni is funny!
These are, by the way, only at hive one... When you have two hives, that's when D really comes into its own and becomes a requisite chamber. However, all are viable for hive one, though I'd suggest movement second if you go d first (sensory generally proves to be less useful by that point in time).
That'll give you your full bonus, yes, but at the same time there goes 30 res, 20 of which would be better spent on off towers leading to base. IMHO mid-end game it pays to have 3 of each tower at each hive for safety reasons........ of course at this point in game you have res to spare.
I understand the complaint with severely crippling gorge nubs (I've ran into them myself) not much I can suggest about that other than gently guiding them with "please don't block corridors other aliens have to go through" comments. And send them to the forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, it's EWWW. You only need 1 sensory at game start... Either at their base if they're on the defensive and you're attacking, or one at the hive if they're rushing, or one at the double node where all the gorges are. Only one should apply at any given time, if more than one does, then your team has no coherent strategy. And the whole upgrades thing isn't useful for sensory early on, not nearly so much as the cloak field.
When this happens, you have a free reign on most of the res nodes avaliable on the map, ensuring a fast second hive and possibly onos in early game. If you are able to achieve this pace of development, then it would be highly unlikely that the marines would have come up with a suitable counter in time. SoF makes ambushing a whole lot easier.
On the other hand, defense chambers allow vent lerks in early game (good on maps with a vent in marine start), tougher skulks and a generally more effective combat performance.
Movements chambers ensure some serious ownage if you have "elite" skulks on your team. Gorge gangs with adrenaline are powerful as well, although they can be countered with shotties.
Sensories do confer a massive advantage to your team in early game, but (as necrosis said) whether they are of any use in late-game scenarios is subject to debate.
get 2 more gorges to the hive and when its up bilebomb the pg/Tf/turrets in a sec down
And the 2 hivelockdown was uselss
SENS IS BEST
Which thus rules out an early rush. Obs are not exactly the first thing built at base. So you rely instead on his team rushing the right hive first time, or a very good rambo finding it. Second, most hive cloaks incorporate a nearby safety OT or two - good delaying tactic.
"Even if it isn't scanned, all it takes is a few bullets to uncloak it."
Which means getting in a good position to fire, and that means running foul of the OTs. Or nearby gorge.
"I could see them being used to cloak offense chambers, but it is crippling to build hive defenses that early, and usually by the time you are aware of a shotty rush it is too late to plop down oc's in the hive if it isn't already protected."
Actually thats not true. After skulking and nabbing one marine from the rush, I got back to base and had enough res for one OT. Other players, aware of the rush, came back from the RT they were about to cap and built OT (all of which are cloaked, like the gorge gang).
We managed to hold them back enough for myself to go lerk, and stop the rush dead. OTs at choke points just outside a hive are very effective, and all aliens tend to rush to defend the hive if its under attack. That or rush the marine base and mash their IP in their absence.
"it seems that a comm should scan a hive that he plans on attacking even if the aliens don't have sensory chambers just so he knows what defenses are up."
For that and of course for spotting respawning aliens.
The thing is that most advanced lifeforms DEPEND on having movement and defense to be effective. Playing a lerk without adren and regen/cara is frustratingly useless. A fade without adren or celerity is going to die to shotguns so fast. An onos without celerity is too slow to help out, etc. You just can't kill off a marine base without both of them. This is usually the reason most pub games take so long. Sens first means you need 3 hives to finish off the marines quickly. If the marines manage to hold a locked down hive it puts you at a real disadvantage. Either you dont have enough speed or energy to finish them off, or you dont live long enough. This is why you won't see sensories in any significant fashion in clan play.
I am a great fan of the movvies.
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Anyways, there really isn't an optimum build order (nor was there in 1.04! You can't see but i'm shaking my fist at you pro-defense first folk! Grr...) Anyways, when 2.0 came out sensory first was a big flamming fad. Everyone thought how cool it was (and it is! By far the best chamber to screw around with marine's heads!) but, now that the marines are using *gasp!* teamwork they are able to secure a hive and take out lot's of aliens. Will sensory and defence or movement help you kill the turret farmed 3rd hive? Probably not, but sensory will help you protect that 3rd hive from ever getting taken in the first place. So, unless you have two people to go gorge, drop a sensory chamber in the other two hives, then protect those hives until someone puts them up. I would suggest going movement or defence first. Whether you are cloaked and waiting for the marine passer-by, a carapaced tank running into a group of marines, or a celeritized skulk that can dance around marines and eat them when they are out of ammo, IT'S ALL FUN, which is what this game was made for....right?
I have some bad news about SC. It's not nearly as sneaky as some think. Yet gorges more then happily plunk it down almost every time. Cloaking with towers might be fun right off the bat, but it shows little foresight for lifeforms you'll be seeing in a few minutes. SoF is great, but celerity/carapace Skulks are capable of keeping up with upgraded weapons. Adren/regen Lerks have a nasty tendancy to <i>just not die</i>. Movement is a virtual requirement for Fades now and celerity is of far more benefit to Onii then SoF.
I'm hoping the novelty of cloaking wears off quickly.
SoF = Wallhack
Now repeat after me, kids -
SoF = Wallhack
What does SoF do? It makes it so that you can't call people "wallhackers!" or "aimbot" cheaters anymore. And that's right. You never know when someone has SoF.
I was playing in a CD-Req server, yes CD-REQ. I had scent of fear as a fade. I saw a marine hiding in a dark corner with SoF. I instantly walked out, turned around, and took him out.
Bad for me. He happened to be an admin.
"WTH! YOU Ch34t1ng H4x N00b!! I'll K1ck Y0 455!!!"
and I was kicked from the server. For goodness sake: CHEATING DEATH REQUIRED. lol.
I never went back, and I never will. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lesson here: gotta think twice about people "cheating" now. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm hoping the novelty of cloaking wears off quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats another problem w/ building SCs... Alien Gorges just arent intelligent enough to build SC where marines wont bother to look. I see Gorges build an SC directly behind the damn OCs. Im like WTH are you doing? I build my SCs in other rooms, on the other side of the wall, etc etc. You just have to be creative w/ the SC and if you drop SCs at choke points w/ skulks waiting there you dont even need celerity.
Drop an SC w/ 4 DCs at a forward assault point = invisible Onos w/ SoF and Carapace = INVINCIBLE. Works every time i dont even need MCs at all and a skilled onos can destroy a base.
SCs are more of an expand/attack chamber because it opens up all these opportunities that wouldnt be possible w/ any other chamber. It lets you go on the offense w/o them knowing about it. And that is what you need if caught in a hive lockdown.
Its good for ambushes
it prevents ambushes
but even so marines can still kill u easily
clever marnes will move around more then hiding =p
even if u can prevent ambush + ambush it's juz abit as good as MT nia.
good marines can still kill u easily.
without mc/dc skuls are ants vs lvl 3 weaps =)
sc is nice but nowhere as good as mc + dc @ 2 hives.
You CAN listen for the marine footsteps; it's not that hard. If you are attacking already then SoF does not help at all; you still need to look around for marines and if you need help for marines right in front of you I suggest practice. Some marines are good at dodging, true, in which case I suggest respecting people who are better than you.
The greater the skill level, the less SoF helps; the player can find marines on their own and they will need more useful upgrades in order to increase their combat viability. For SC to be effective you really need cloak traps.
SC does not help at all in open combat; wallhacking the marines does not help much, whether or not you have good or newb players, since good players won't need it and newb players are newb. cloak traps will work effectively but when that ha train comes for you, you can bet the comm will be scanning, and then what will you do? You won't be cloaked, but maybe you can see your death coming a little earlier with SoF. Well, whoop de doo, if you needed SoF to figure that out you suck anyway. If you don't realize an ha train is coming long before it reaches its objective your team has some bad intel. And how are you going to stop them with SoF or cloak? DC + MC is much more effective
Remember, marines do not have silence - you do. Of course they can crouch but I'm sure you can figure out which is better and they have MT but I'm sure you'll figure out what to do.