NS is way to complex for 75% of the CS community.. they just like shooting people to death... NS tho is more of a strategy game and is more social.... it may get as popular as CS in the future but as of now... CS is still king
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
This is why i say NS is more complicated than CS, and therefore more Complex:
Counter-Strike: Think about it, what do you need to play it? You need eyes, hands, ears (to be good at it), a computer and good reflexes. Aim doesn't come into it, because all aim is on an FPS is good reflexes. Good hand eye co-ordination? If you've got good enough co-ordination to use a computer, you can play CS (generally).
Natural-Selection: All of the above. But, you've got to have a sense of teamwork. You run off your own, you die. You cost your team a gun. Even if you're not upgraded, you still leave your team without a gun, undefended in some places. And now in 2.0, you give the other team res if you die, so that's at least two things against dying. You also need a sense of dicipline (sp?) so you know to follow orders, but then again, you need some intelligence so you can know when to follow orders and when to carry on with what you're doing. Then you've got to get into the whole mind set of being a marine: Aliens are waiting everywhere. Sometimes you can't see them when they're practicly on your foot, and sometimes you can't hear them running up behind you.
Basicaly, in CS, all you need to do is run around until you see someone that isn't on your team, aim and click the mouse. CS is also a game of luck, as if they see you first, chances are you will die. Tactics in CS are limited to "Team 1 go that way, Team 2 go this way", and trying to surround the other team. Fair enough, those are good tactics. But NS has so much more posibility. Send one marine to one hive, to shoot it and draw off the aliens so you can rush one hive, or split your team up and go for both hives at once? Or maybe go for all the res nodes first so you can tech rush them? Relocate or not? Rush to a seige point or rush the hive? Most of this falls onto the head of the commander, who is one person. But still, the team has to have some knowledge of what is going on, or they will lose.
That's true about the Civ type strategy but in AoE2 multiplayer you have to deal with the human element also. I'm truly scared of the people who play AoE2 online. When you look at the strategy guides online for this game you see people talking about toning down the amount of time they spend clicking on stuff and hotkeying everything in existence. When I play the game I'm literally sweating becuase I'm so scared of what the other guy is planning. I think this is what is going to happen when Marine vs Marine games are introduced into NS. It will literally be commander vs commander and one isn't going to be aggressive or dedicated enough to win and the players will just be pawns. Right now in NS most commanders aren't as calculating as RTS games, they just don't have the freedom to be that. But I guess we will have to wait and see. It is a team game as you state.
[I've only played played a few StarCraft games and it was AoE2-lite, but tense none the less]
I don't think it is as much a question of intelligence as that of maturity.
If you can play for the team (i.e. not always whine for better equipment, not always running out on your own etc.) and ask questions if you are new, then you are already a decent NS player.
Bob (or Sue, etc.) the Silicon Valley engineer comes home from work. His #*$&@*#&!!! boss just insulted his mother an hour ago while telling him that he's been laid off.
He flips someone off on the highway and runs over a skulk trying to cross the road.
A homeless gorge on the side of an intersection is begging for money.
There's a red light. Bob gets even more ****. He sees the gorge, whips out the Desert Eagle 0.50 caliber (maybe modified for 0.72 caliber) he keeps in his glove compartment and empties the clip into the gorge.
Then the light turns green and he drives off.
Getting home, he sees that a Fade ate his dinner. He pulls out that Ingram MAC10 all engineers keep in their back pocket and blows him away - gangsta style - then drops the gun on top of all the spent cartridges. By now he's really mad, and can't think.
Getting to his computer, he sees that an Onos took a bigass bite out of his new GeForce FX 5900 Ultra AND his ATI Radeon 9800. He hunts down the Onos, who by now, sharing the dinner with the fade, is now pooping. He kicks open the bathroom door and kicks its ****.
As you can tell by now, Bob is now quite an angry man.
He sits down, forced to play with his Nvidia Riva TNT. By now, he's not interested in "real-time first person strategy". He just wants to kick ****, and a lot of it.
Start -> Programs -> Half-Life ->
For a second his cursor runs over Natural Selection.
Counter-Strike causes more frustration. It won't relax anyone. But it gets you so mad that you just have to play more. This paradox of agony continues until you become aware of it and just quit (takes 10 mins for me now to quit, used to take hours).
I remember when I realized this playing Tribes 2. Everyone just wanted to go in and blast everyone else to bits like in Tribes 1, but T2 became more centralized on tactical points and vehicles instead of one player skiing out to the enemy base in heavy armor and blasting everyone to ****-all. That killed T2's population.
Then you had newbies who saw two things: fighter jets and sniper rifles. That's all they seem to want to do - every game, the entire game.
Sniping people off when they spawn and shooting a grounded bomber while it's loading doesn't do **** to further your team, only furthers your single score. A game that has jet packs, grenade launchers, jets, hoverbikes, machine guns, tanks, bombers, and teamwork - it sounds like the best concept ever, but it's ruined by people who can't think in terms of teams instead of self.
Hmmm NS wont be as popular as CS, but thats why radiohead (substitue band you like that will never be uber popular) dont get no1 singles but 'cheeky girls' do (UK). LCD - Lowest Common Denominator will always be most popular. I'm not saying radiohead are the 1337est band in the world (they are though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) but there are plenty of good bands that are in a similar if not worse off position.
You can't compare NS to chess....can you play NS in your head? You can with Chess, but NS is far too complex. NS imho is sort of a mixture between chess and football/soccer its infinitely complex (pretty much) but also has simple-ish strategies and one extremely skilled player can win it virtually. And it invovles the 'human' factor.
Flayra/Dev team - don't take this the wrong way, but I don't <b>want</b> NS to become as popular as CS. The reason why the CS community is so infested with knobs is that the amount of wankers/irritating kiddies/immature and generally annoying players increases as the population does. There will always be a certain amount of tools in a certain situatioin (bar heavy moderating/private servers etc) - it's a percentage that stays roughly the same as you add more random people into the mix.
They need to add a pre-install IQ test or something. If you aren't rated as a candidate for MENSA it formats your PC. It'd help keep morons out <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->. I hate morons as much as anyone else, but there isn't alot we can do to stop them from invading our beloved NS.
All we can do it wait. Eventually they'll get bored and we'll be left with the cream of the crop, it wont be fun and it wont be easy, but it'll be worth it! Next time Mr. "elite"|-|4xx()|2 kills someone and makes a big deal of his score or flames someone for "camping" (aka. ambushing) just ignore him, turn the blind eye, he'll realise this isn't the right mod for him and depart. Provoking these people only makes them want to prove that they are "better" then you by killing things, this leads to rambo activities, "nub"isms and idiocies.
<!--QuoteBegin--Testament+Aug 12 2003, 08:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Testament @ Aug 12 2003, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They need to add a pre-install IQ test or something. If you aren't rated as a candidate for MENSA it formats your PC. It'd help keep morons out <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->. I hate morons as much as anyone else, but there isn't alot we can do to stop them from invading our beloved NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And what will <b>you</b> do when your HD is cleared ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Guys, whilst I can understand your frustrations and pride in NS, may I make a small point here:
The variance in IQ between one online gamer and the next isn't quite as large as you'd think.
Most people are capable of both playing and enjoying NS. If they come onto your server with bad habits, try and help them. Don't shout at them, talk to them. Make them feel welcome.
CS is undemanding. Although it should require teamwork, it doesn't. NS is much more effort. Some people don't play complex computer games because their life already demands too much concentration from them. They'd much rather play Q3 or something similar because they want to rest their brain (this is not to suggest Q3 is dumb, please no flames, I love Q3).
Now the larger the community, the more support and patches and versions NS is likely to have.
If you want to get some people together to play NS, get your clan involved. Or make a clan. Or go around pub servers finding other people who enjoy your play style and organise it so you all play on one server.
Ah yes, I love NS, when there are people on my clan server. But when I play pub games and hear people yelling through their mic's OMG you n00b commander give me heavy armor and a HMG now, about 30 seconds into the game, I leave. I can't stand playing with people who don't RTFM! I by no means am the best NS player, but when I was a newbie I read the manual before I got to playing, I knew the basic dynamics of the game before I even started to play. I got in the game, made a few newb mistakes like trying to get things from the prototype lab tribes style <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> , but after about 2 days I got it. I listened to people who have been playing longer than me, like they were an extention to the manual, and learned from them. I was not like, "I r 4 L337 NS Xpe|2t" (but I am now j/k) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
(BTW the manual is still in 1.0x format fyi devs, incase you forgot about it, but I bet you are working on updating it already <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I think most people tried to get stuff from the buildings :\
Edit: When NS first came out I didn't know what I was doing, so I just followed people around and crap and even tried to get a weapon from the armory, heck, I even thought that aliens couldn't open the door in bast near the elevator so I closed it and started taunting the onos on the other side. But yea, I learned how to play after a day or 2 and started to get the hang of it.
Comments
Counter-Strike: Think about it, what do you need to play it? You need eyes, hands, ears (to be good at it), a computer and good reflexes. Aim doesn't come into it, because all aim is on an FPS is good reflexes. Good hand eye co-ordination? If you've got good enough co-ordination to use a computer, you can play CS (generally).
Natural-Selection: All of the above. But, you've got to have a sense of teamwork. You run off your own, you die. You cost your team a gun. Even if you're not upgraded, you still leave your team without a gun, undefended in some places. And now in 2.0, you give the other team res if you die, so that's at least two things against dying. You also need a sense of dicipline (sp?) so you know to follow orders, but then again, you need some intelligence so you can know when to follow orders and when to carry on with what you're doing. Then you've got to get into the whole mind set of being a marine: Aliens are waiting everywhere. Sometimes you can't see them when they're practicly on your foot, and sometimes you can't hear them running up behind you.
Basicaly, in CS, all you need to do is run around until you see someone that isn't on your team, aim and click the mouse. CS is also a game of luck, as if they see you first, chances are you will die. Tactics in CS are limited to "Team 1 go that way, Team 2 go this way", and trying to surround the other team. Fair enough, those are good tactics. But NS has so much more posibility. Send one marine to one hive, to shoot it and draw off the aliens so you can rush one hive, or split your team up and go for both hives at once? Or maybe go for all the res nodes first so you can tech rush them? Relocate or not? Rush to a seige point or rush the hive? Most of this falls onto the head of the commander, who is one person. But still, the team has to have some knowledge of what is going on, or they will lose.
[I've only played played a few StarCraft games and it was AoE2-lite, but tense none the less]
If you can play for the team (i.e. not always whine for better equipment, not always running out on your own etc.) and ask questions if you are new, then you are already a decent NS player.
The rest falls into place with experience.
Besides, it's not like it's only Mensa people that play NS. I would say this mod has its fair share of morons just like all the others.
Bob (or Sue, etc.) the Silicon Valley engineer comes home from work. His #*$&@*#&!!! boss just insulted his mother an hour ago while telling him that he's been laid off.
He flips someone off on the highway and runs over a skulk trying to cross the road.
A homeless gorge on the side of an intersection is begging for money.
There's a red light. Bob gets even more ****. He sees the gorge, whips out the Desert Eagle 0.50 caliber (maybe modified for 0.72 caliber) he keeps in his glove compartment and empties the clip into the gorge.
Then the light turns green and he drives off.
Getting home, he sees that a Fade ate his dinner. He pulls out that Ingram MAC10 all engineers keep in their back pocket and blows him away - gangsta style - then drops the gun on top of all the spent cartridges. By now he's really mad, and can't think.
Getting to his computer, he sees that an Onos took a bigass bite out of his new GeForce FX 5900 Ultra AND his ATI Radeon 9800. He hunts down the Onos, who by now, sharing the dinner with the fade, is now pooping. He kicks open the bathroom door and kicks its ****.
As you can tell by now, Bob is now quite an angry man.
He sits down, forced to play with his Nvidia Riva TNT. By now, he's not interested in "real-time first person strategy". He just wants to kick ****, and a lot of it.
Start -> Programs -> Half-Life ->
For a second his cursor runs over Natural Selection.
-> Counter-Strike
And that's that. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I remember when I realized this playing Tribes 2. Everyone just wanted to go in and blast everyone else to bits like in Tribes 1, but T2 became more centralized on tactical points and vehicles instead of one player skiing out to the enemy base in heavy armor and blasting everyone to ****-all. That killed T2's population.
Then you had newbies who saw two things: fighter jets and sniper rifles. That's all they seem to want to do - every game, the entire game.
Sniping people off when they spawn and shooting a grounded bomber while it's loading doesn't do **** to further your team, only furthers your single score. A game that has jet packs, grenade launchers, jets, hoverbikes, machine guns, tanks, bombers, and teamwork - it sounds like the best concept ever, but it's ruined by people who can't think in terms of teams instead of self.
You can't compare NS to chess....can you play NS in your head? You can with Chess, but NS is far too complex. NS imho is sort of a mixture between chess and football/soccer its infinitely complex (pretty much) but also has simple-ish strategies and one extremely skilled player can win it virtually. And it invovles the 'human' factor.
It's more fun than playing with all those dipshits out there.
And what will <b>you</b> do when your HD is cleared ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"SUYF NUB, OBSERVATORYS DONT UNCLOAK #&%*&# HACKER. BYE"
kicked by console
I really....am starting to hate n00bs. I don't mind newbies, but I HATE n00bs.
The variance in IQ between one online gamer and the next isn't quite as large as you'd think.
Most people are capable of both playing and enjoying NS. If they come onto your server with bad habits, try and help them. Don't shout at them, talk to them. Make them feel welcome.
CS is undemanding. Although it should require teamwork, it doesn't. NS is much more effort. Some people don't play complex computer games because their life already demands too much concentration from them. They'd much rather play Q3 or something similar because they want to rest their brain (this is not to suggest Q3 is dumb, please no flames, I love Q3).
Now the larger the community, the more support and patches and versions NS is likely to have.
If you want to get some people together to play NS, get your clan involved. Or make a clan. Or go around pub servers finding other people who enjoy your play style and organise it so you all play on one server.
Work with us here.
(BTW the manual is still in 1.0x format fyi devs, incase you forgot about it, but I bet you are working on updating it already <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Edit: When NS first came out I didn't know what I was doing, so I just followed people around and crap and even tried to get a weapon from the armory, heck, I even thought that aliens couldn't open the door in bast near the elevator so I closed it and started taunting the onos on the other side. But yea, I learned how to play after a day or 2 and started to get the hang of it.