<!--QuoteBegin--SilverSurfie+Aug 12 2003, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SilverSurfie @ Aug 12 2003, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont believe MC should ever be the first hive chamber. Reason being it will never ever get you out of a tight fix. I would rather have SoF while being cloaked by a SC then MC traits any day of the week. And if marines take a hive MC wont help you get it back.
Ive played multiple games where i dropped a SC down and put up the hive right under the marine's nose.
MC is only good for early skulk rushes but that is about it. Its mid-game and end-game benefits arent very good. If Marines do 2 hive locked down your basically **** if MC is your hive chamber. A movement alien isnt going to help much against HA/HMGers even if you are Onos.
Cloaked or carapaced <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you will never pull that off against good marines
MC pulls you out of tight fixes, oh hell yeah it does, it increases combat capability much more so than sensory
if marines occupy a hive and you have sensory they had better damn well place an obs there anyway. gg sensory
cloak traps do work, and SoF is a wallhack - yes these are useful
but if you must win against good marines, and now I'm talking each and every individual fight, MC + DC > SC
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Aug 14 2003, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Aug 14 2003, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I see a lot of comments about how sensory first only works if properly placed. Or that its a third hive ability.
Placement, gentlemen, is the key for many things, including OC and DC, and SC at the third hive negates any use it would have given you. By then, the marines are being pushed back, their expansion is over, and the opportunity to ambush with SC/OC combos is gone.
I see people say MC benefits bigger creatures. This is true. However only hoarders have big creatures at game start. Yes, hoarders, because if you're so good that you've enough to go Fade in 3 minutes, then you should be going to a hive and capping it or building defence.
When hive 2 is up, the TEAM will be on their bigger creatures, and thats when MC gets the really big use.
Thats IMHO mind you, and to be honest I'm getting very tired of people claiming they're good, dropping MCs, then the team gets toasted and he turns round and blames the team for not being able to use the upgrade HE forced on them.
Each upgrade is conditional and usefulness depends very much on the team and how they use it. There is no such thing as an order where "SDM" is worse that "MDS". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it's true tho that although each MC ability has good uses, it takes a good team to use them. This doesn't mean it's inferior, as clan matches attest, just that it takes more skill.
While you are building a hive / defenses the marines could be saving for ha train. While you are building and not killing the marines are free to assault elsewhere, maybe even ninja siege your hive. Doesn't mean you shouldn't build, obviously, but if you've got skilled fades / onos, don't waste them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Aug 15 2003, 01:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Aug 15 2003, 01:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I see a lot of comments about how sensory first only works if properly placed. Or that its a third hive ability.
Placement, gentlemen, is the key for many things, including OC and DC, and SC at the third hive negates any use it would have given you. By then, the marines are being pushed back, their expansion is over, and the opportunity to ambush with SC/OC combos is gone.
I see people say MC benefits bigger creatures. This is true. However only hoarders have big creatures at game start. Yes, hoarders, because if you're so good that you've enough to go Fade in 3 minutes, then you should be going to a hive and capping it or building defence.
When hive 2 is up, the TEAM will be on their bigger creatures, and thats when MC gets the really big use.
Thats IMHO mind you, and to be honest I'm getting very tired of people claiming they're good, dropping MCs, then the team gets toasted and he turns round and blames the team for not being able to use the upgrade HE forced on them.
Each upgrade is conditional and usefulness depends very much on the team and how they use it. There is no such thing as an order where "SDM" is worse that "MDS". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simply put, I believe your wrong. Its next to impossible to totally balance game play like this. I would like to agree that all three chambers are viable at the start because they are, but some are more viable then others. YES! all three can get you a win, but some chambers will make it alot easier if used correctly. I'm not going to disclose which chambers I like first because It will just make anyone againt my personal favorite disregard this post entirely saying 'noob' or some other remark, but eventually I can forsee a normal build order evolve in 2.0/2.1. Wether it be sdm, mds, or any other will play it self out over time.
SilverSurfie: I doubt anyone will agree that sc give greater benifits to higher lifeforms then mc's do. I believe most of the sc fans contest that sc's allow more map domination early game to ensure more rsr nodes/hives which will eventually give you a better game. But, they will not say having sc's over mc's is better for the onos/fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--lagger+Aug 15 2003, 02:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Aug 15 2003, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> SilverSurfie: I doubt anyone will agree that sc give greater benifits to higher lifeforms then mc's do. I believe most of the sc fans contest that sc's allow more map domination early game to ensure more rsr nodes/hives which will eventually give you a better game. But, they will not say having sc's over mc's is better for the onos/fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly SCs allows early map domination = slow rine expansion = slow teching = GG Aliens Win.
SCs arent entirely bad for late game either. If you want to stop rines of expanding to your 2nd hive from their third. Using SoF to track rines and under cloak, your going to decimate those marines that are trying to push through your defenses. Its scary seeing a Onos come out of cloak stomping and devouring you.
Thats all i really need at end game as Onos, and SC w/ lots of DCs next to it. Being able to run a lil bit faster is really going to help me catch that retreating marine. *sarcasm* Or Silence is really going to help me when i run around the corner and see 5 SG marines sitting there waiting for me.
Stomp = immobile marine = devoured marine = you dont need to chase him = no need for MC. SoF = legal wallhack = unlimited tactical information = no way you will be caught by surprise = scared shitless marines = priceless.
"While you are building a hive / defenses the marines could be saving for ha train. While you are building and not killing the marines are free to assault elsewhere, maybe even ninja siege your hive."
True but what I'm saying here is that the one person with the big res goes off for hive, while the rest of the team are still presumably harassing the enemy. Yes, the marines will likely be saving up but it'll still be under some pressure - and once Hive 2 is up your higher creature will be much more effective. The choice is essentially this -
Good skulker - goes fade on one hive - makes some kills, dies, goes fade, hopes someone else stores up the res for hive.
Good skulker - builds hive 2 - makes more kills (with 2 hive abilities), MIGHT die, goes fade, knows that the team are using 2 hive traits rather than struggling along on one hive.
"Doesn't mean you shouldn't build, obviously, but if you've got skilled fades / onos, don't waste them."
And IMHO a part of their use is making up the shortfall if the team suck. If the team suck, you use your res to do what they cant - build hives, build chambers, and perhaps some defence. They cant. You rely on them to do it? You lose. Since a skilled player is a skilled player, he'll do more damage faster with his extra traits, and won't be handicapped. Whereas an unskilled player will blow all his res which he can't honestly replace too quickly.
"Simply put, I believe your wrong. Its next to impossible to totally balance game play like this."
Balance in what sense? I'm not sure I understand *which* of my points you're addressing.
"but some are more viable then others."
Yes and no. It is TEAM dependent. As I stated - no one player will win the match. You can be NS' best ever fade but you are CRIPPLED if your teammates can do nothing. Truth be told, in recent games I prefer MC for adrenaline. Thats because I get to lerk very quickly. However, if I'm on a server full of people barely making skulk, then I realise that Sensory will be more useful for the bulk of the team. I disagree that there is any one chamber order that works for ALL situations. It just does not exist. In a team of nubs, MDS kills you. In a team of skilled players, SDM slows the game. Reverse it, and both games are instantly improved. The effectiveness of a chamber is based on the team using it - its is NOT based on some designated list of "better orders".
"I'm not going to disclose which chambers I like first because It will just make anyone againt my personal favorite disregard this post entirely saying 'noob' or some other remark"
Well thats your option, but to be honest if you're not prepared to post up your preference and why, then its adds very little credence to your opinion. Second, I may be new myself but I credit the forum with enough civility that this thread won't devolve into n00bcalling.
Here's how it worked for me. When I was new, and good only at gorge, I preferred Sens. I could get a free bite in on any marine, I could scout, and I could play fatal ambushes. Now that I am a better player, I don't need a sensory "safety net" but instead movement so that I can maximise my kill rate. Thats the natural evolution of things. In fact in some games these days I even go def first if we're getting rushed. I go by the team's view, and by opponent action. Keeping a fixed list that you MUST obey seems horribly horribly flawed.
"but eventually I can forsee a normal build order evolve in 2.0/2.1"
I don't think there will ever be a "normal" build order. I'm more of the opinion that it will constantly change depending on team ability and opponent actions. But hey, different strokes right?
Get it through your heads, silence doesn't help against marines that know more than spray and pray.
Start up NS. Go marine (oh the horror) and look in the upper right hand corner.
See that? Obviously its a surprise to you MC Uber Alles folks. Its a mini-map! Wow! What does it show? Well, that green thing is you! Wave at the camera! Wait, what's that red thing 'sneaking' up behind you oh so silently? Its a skulk, that's got level 3 silence and thinks he's leet. Bang. Exit not so leet skulk.
It takes _nothing to keep an eye on the mini-map. Or to place the overview map key where you can easily reach it while running around. Aliens show up as nasty red blotches. Who cares if they are silent? Mini-map doesn't care.
So, if you are 'sneaking' up silently ninja style on those marines, well, its because they are idiots. And you could take them out without any chambers at all.
And the hivemind forbid that the marines have motion tracking. Now your leet silent ninjaskulk...shows up as a big blue blob. So he's blue and red and dead all over. Sounds like a old joke, what's blue and red and green, a silent skulk bleeding in the hive.
Where as my cloaked skulk? He's over there picking bits of marines out of his teeth, they didn't see _him coming til it was too late. Mini-map, MT, they don't show a cloaked skulk in the shadows.
And if you honestly think the marines will have Obs everywhere, dream on. They shouldn't have the res, and they won't have enough energy in the few obs they have, to scan everywhere.
Well you only went over one of the scenarios with movement. Silence on a skulk can be deadly but thats not the only upgrade movement offers. Example: Andrenaline for the one hive fade. Blink around like no one's business then slash, the fade shouldn't even have to worry about the minimap. Movement also helps you take down a hive lockdown. Movement, when coupled with defense, is the ultimate base killer. Sensory and either of the other two aren't as effective for base busting.
seriously you MC guys think Silence makes you invisible... it doesnt...
9 times out of 10 a good marine will kill you while your running up to them.
as for the SC not useful for taking back a hive lockdown... first i ask are you on crack? 2nd, when does giving you the ability to cloak allowing you to put up the hive under the marines "protection" or giving you the ability to scope out the TF placement w/o getting shot letting you probe for the most vulnerable or advantageous bilebomb position not "useful"
As for the fades need MC thing thats y you fail when SC is dropped first. Instead of being greedy and saving up res to evolve you should be out there helping your fellow gorges building that SC network instead of "having fun." You think we gorges enjoy playing as gorge? (well i actually do)
SC is a lockdown type of chamber. If used properly SC gives aliens the ability to lockdown majority of the map making marine expanding difficult. So instead of hogging all the glory help your team not yourself.
sensory chambers are awesome for "taking back" locked hives.. by making the newly building hiove "invisible" the turrets don't shoot it. only knack to it is having a smart skulk nearby to distract the turrets for the first few seconds until the hive cloaks.
<!--QuoteBegin--Deacon+Aug 17 2003, 11:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deacon @ Aug 17 2003, 11:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The counter for sensory is obs scanning.
Scanning only works when the marines travel together (as the comm can't be scanning all over the place) and when the comm can multitask effectively.
Most pub marines don't move in one large group, and most pub comms can't multitask effectively.
Thus, on public servers, opening with sensory is highly effective. However a talented commander can shut down an SC defense with remarkable haste. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> agreed but when matched against me. I scatter ALOT of SCs and honestly work on building a very good SC cloaking network. So 1) you dont have enough energy to scan everywhere. 2) I make Obs my primary targets when i bilebomb. 3) You need to build multiple Obs if you want to counter my SC network effectively. And even then on some maps you wont be able to kill them cause im elite SC gorge builder. :-p
Sigh, SC allows early map domination WHOOPIE, a good marine team will just creep out of their base, and wait the onos can't rush in without taking a beating, the fade can't blink for crap, the lerk can't be as effective without adrenaline, the skulk can't leap like a mad mofo. Sensory sucks for sieging... So while you may have domination over half the map, when that heavy team comes out and wipes the floor with you because the Comm scanned the room before they ran in, you'll know why. Oh wait, SOF, congratulations, you get to see where the grenade comes from. Seriously guys, MC is what will allow you to finish off the locked down hive. SC will not.
As for the "elite" silent skulks, yeah, silence works on newbies or on preoccupied marines building... But movement also gives celerity, and even if your so madly in love with your hud, a celerity skulk will be on ya in no time, even if you do have a general direction which way he is coming from.
Does sensory have its place, most definitely, as a large area suppression/scouting tool, beyond that, not as effective.
Oh and someone mind telling me why DC shouldn't be first since it is almost always second? :-)
There have been games where we had three guys go gorge and MC, then back to skulk, then celerity rushed the 'rines and won in about 2 minutes, NO JOKE.
The servers I play on tend to lean towards MDS. The main problem with sensory first is that it is so easy to negate the bonuses. A single observatory is enoguh to make your network of sensory chambers useless, and if you ahven't claimed a second hive yet, you can end up in deep trouble.
With defense, the bonuses can be negated to some degree with weapons upgrades, and higher level weapons. But the movement chamber bonuses cannot be negated as such, since marines can't tap you energy (besides prolonging life with armour upgrades), and they can't do anything to negate celerity and silence.
As long as none of the chambers have extreme advantages over both others when they are placed first, I doubt there will ever be any fixed order that they are put down in. The way things are now, marines need to find out which chamber aliens are using first hand, and then work to counter it. If aliens start to put down chambers in the same order every time, marines will be able to begin countering as soon as the game starts.
As long as there isn't one chamber that is much better than the others, unpredictability will be the best way to go.
<!--QuoteBegin--Undeath+Aug 18 2003, 07:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Undeath @ Aug 18 2003, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"A single observatory is enoguh to make your network of sensory chambers useless, and if you ahven't claimed a second hive yet, you can end up in deep trouble."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bull. Complete and utter bull. An observatory within its LIMITED effective range will strip cloak. That is a VERY small area. One observatory does NOT do more than protect a SINGLE SMALL outpost from cloak.
All I know is if you really look at what each offers, the movement is hands down awesome, especially for first one. Sensory's cloak and scent is nice. But if your hittin a base or know where they are (remember that old skulk skill, parasite?) Defense.. well, regen is ok, but only once you have more hp. poor on a skulk. Carapace doesnt do half what it used to do. And redemption is only for the Onos glory hogs. Defense chambers I feel are better and the only reasonable excuse for putting them down. And thats assuming you have res spare to spam some ocs with em to make silly WoL. But movement... Ahh. Makes the lerk happy, makes the fade happy. A gorge can bomb and spray like crazy. And thats just adrenaline. Celerity all can have fun with, specially a skulk. Or silence. I believe MDS is the way now. Anyways, just spam evolve to gorge, then drop a movement, then quickly skulk up or kill self. So they dont see who the gorge is on the list. Sure the noobs will cry about no sensory = lose, but the more skilled players wont complain and bring home the bacon regardless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyways, just spam evolve to gorge, then drop a movement, then quickly skulk up or kill self. So they dont see who the gorge is on the list.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the type of attitude i hate and why i hate going MDS. If i drop a SC i back it up by staying Gorge most of the game because i decided on the type of strategy aliens are going to use for the entire game. I back myself up instead of being a lil wuss needing MC to help me kill stuff and dont take responsiblity for dropping it.
If i drop SC im going to do the best in my power to use it to its full potential.
Here's my breakdown on the first hive chamber issue, and it's something that came up in even 1.04
Movement: every evolve is an advantage. It doesn't negate a disadvantage produced by the marines. Silence + patience = perfect ambush now that the attacks are silent as well. Celerity: saves gorges and makes skulks more likely to get to the marines with fewer shots fired overall. Adrenaline: Lerk being viable as a 1st hive alien (yes, in 1.04, quality lerking could save games and NOT by spiking from vents), adrenaline is very helpful.
Defense: Some of the evolves are an advantage, but most just negate disadvantages. Redemption: Pointless as a skulk as it takes less time to spawn than it does to heal and return to action. Carapace: The skulks best friend in a spray and pray situation, you can catch a bullet or two more without biting the dust. Same goes for lerk, especially as it's used w/o the umbra/bite combo from 1.04. Regen: for those lonely rambo aliens who venture far from hives and chambers but live long enough to keep hitting the marines.
Sensory: Only one evolve is a clear advantage, one negates a disadvantage and one is freaking pointless. Pheremones: does anyone actually EVER use this upgrade when scent of fear is far better? SoF: clearly the best sensory upgrade for any hive status, that is, if your gorges are dropping sensory chambers around the map to provide adequate cloaking. This is the only clear advantage to sensory first. Cloaking: personal cloaking is pointless in a map with good gorging unless you're hiding in an out of the way place "saving for hive." proper cloaking is from the sens chamber itself, doesn't make noise when you move and negates motion tracking. This removes teh disadvantage that MT places on aliens, but MT rushes aren't a core Marine strat anymore, especially competitively. You'll find more marines that turret farm the base early or electrify their nodes than rush to MT early on. MT is usually a late game, help the HA train, icin on the cake for a Marine team w/ 45 extra res to blow. However, cloaking from chambers or personal cloaking is countered by a ping or nearby observatory, at which point it is wholly negated.
So here's my question for the gorges out there: Would you rather drop a chamber that provides a clear advantage for EVERY playing style, or force your team into a chamber that has _one_ clear advantage over the marines and force them to cater to YOUR playing style? For me, as a gorge, kharaa and NS player, TEAM comes far before ME, and that's why i'll drop a hive rather than save for fade or onos in the early or midgame. Call me naiive and hopeful, but teamplay is what I play NS for, and that's why Movement Chambers are always dropped first every chance I get, and every time someone asks. Dchambers are too passive a gaming style for first hive aliens, as they promote holding back, which allows marines to node rush and tech early.
Like i said in past posts, Silence ambushes arent as effective as cloaked ambushes. Charging a rine cloaked is wayyyy better then celerity because Aliens decide the engagement because they are able to get the first bite in. A good marine will kill you while you are running at them. Only thing Cloaking cannot do better is in the department of adrenaline which turn early lerks into game enders, but against a good squad of marines early lerks will get beat down.
I just find SC more useful because my clan likes playing aggressive map control. SCs improve skulks chances when engaged against multiple marines. Improving ambush success combined w/ cloaking chokepoints = aliens getting all 3 hives = the win.
Celerity skulks can and ushally will decide when to start a conflict by not just running at their prey. They can wait around corners and jump around with x2 air speed to bite the marine before reaction time. Then, a silent flanker can come out of one of the many other directions to flank the opposing marine group while another celerity skulk can ambush around the corner again. Movement chambers are very effective for ambush's for every type of class which makes it a very effective chambers. Sensory can cloak, which can also supply a good ambush but if the comm decides to scan your entire ambush is spoiled.
im not saying I drop a Move and switch back. Normally I use an exploit to get 3 down and then put up a hive. Im saying though, in the long run, the M is better and more efficient. I dont even play with my sound up higher than a mouses fart so I dont know about all the sound issues.
<!--QuoteBegin--lagger+Aug 19 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Aug 19 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Celerity skulks can and ushally will decide when to start a conflict by not just running at their prey. They can wait around corners and jump around with x2 air speed to bite the marine before reaction time. Then, a silent flanker can come out of one of the many other directions to flank the opposing marine group while another celerity skulk can ambush around the corner again. Movement chambers are very effective for ambush's for every type of class which makes it a very effective chambers. Sensory can cloak, which can also supply a good ambush but if the comm decides to scan your entire ambush is spoiled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All MC evolutions are countered by MT. Which require an Ob. For Obs to effectively counter SC you need about 2-3 obs to have enough energy to scan constantly. So the counter for MCs is cheaper then the counter for SC.
1 Ob will not provide you enough energy to scan every position, especially if marines are expanding aggressively. Do you know how long it takes to charge up 25 energy? Quite long.
ANd ive SGed a leaping Skulk so yeah even that wont save you and i consider myself a decent shot.
<!--QuoteBegin--TheGlow+Aug 18 2003, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGlow @ Aug 18 2003, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Makes the lerk happy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it doesnt make the lerks happy. Too risky to lerk without either regen or SOF. adrenline good 2nd hive. The smallest ambush or wall in your way and your a dead lerk. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--SilverSurfie+Aug 19 2003, 03:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SilverSurfie @ Aug 19 2003, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--lagger+Aug 19 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Aug 19 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Celerity skulks can and ushally will decide when to start a conflict by not just running at their prey. They can wait around corners and jump around with x2 air speed to bite the marine before reaction time. Then, a silent flanker can come out of one of the many other directions to flank the opposing marine group while another celerity skulk can ambush around the corner again. Movement chambers are very effective for ambush's for every type of class which makes it a very effective chambers. Sensory can cloak, which can also supply a good ambush but if the comm decides to scan your entire ambush is spoiled. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All MC evolutions are countered by MT. Which require an Ob. For Obs to effectively counter SC you need about 2-3 obs to have enough energy to scan constantly. So the counter for MCs is cheaper then the counter for SC.
1 Ob will not provide you enough energy to scan every position, especially if marines are expanding aggressively. Do you know how long it takes to charge up 25 energy? Quite long.
ANd ive SGed a leaping Skulk so yeah even that wont save you and i consider myself a decent shot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's part of the problem, is kharaa misconceptions concerning marines. By the time a second hive <i>should or is</i> going up, the marines have probably capped a few nodes, maybe locked down a hive, upgraded weapons and armor at least a level a piece, and if they don't see sensory skulks, MAY have gone phase tech rather than getting prepped for an HA train. MT rushes are pointless and rare for the marines, and the minimap negates MT to a certain extent if used intelligently. I don't know about the servers you guys play on, but witht he experienced vets/playtesters I've had comm and win as a marine, MT was something we had against first hive aliens ONLY if we'd had the other two hives locked down. It's the common misconception that marines actually rush MT against first hive aliens that causes the "Sensory negates MT" debate. Sensory as a second hive chamber could be used in that debate, but hives go up way to quickly now to make it plausible for marines to be MT rushing that often. And many times the only observatories I see not involved with phase tech are there to ping for sieges, and MT is a late game addition for the HA train as it barrels across the map.
But I may just play on more advanced servers where commanders use build orders that dont cater to marines that are incapable of taking care of themselves and checking rooms for hiding skulks without needing big blue circles to point the way. That's probably also the reason that sensory first is generally pointless on these servers as well. Without the necessity of negating a pointlessly ezpensive marine upgrade that is rarely seen in early game, movements are far superior. The thing that strikes me as possibly the dumbest thing of all is finding EVERY NODE that kharaa have capped w/ a sensory chamber next to it. Like the marines will fail to notice the lack of a tall white stream of res coming from it.
Plus you have to realize that Movements for 1st hive chamber can save your second hive as it first goes up by allowing kharaa to get across the map quickly and efficiently rather than running the whole way. Although this no longer applies to building hives, it directly increases a full hives chances of survival under a marine rush. Of course, an organized marine rush coming that late in a round probably means they'll lose the round due to lack of initiative in the first place.
i dunno man... If i see aliens going MC i tell Comm to tech to MT as quickly as possible... Its a legal maphack and saves you lots of headaches. Im one of those "want to know where things are at all times" type of person = me liking MT and SC first and foremost...
As a commander, I'd have to say no to that one. it's what, 15 res for an observatory, maybe 20 (can't remember of the top of my head) which is roughly the same cost as an arms lab. 45 res = 20 res for lvl 1 weps, 20 res for lvl 1 armor, and 5 res left for two medpacks. or 45 res = 4 shotties and two medpacks. or 45 res = a Tf and two turrets to start off the farm add in the 20 for the obs, and you have 4 high quality turrets that track faster and shoot better than most marines. 45 res = Two RTs if my marines can hold them. There are so many better investments in the early game, especially the lvl 1 weps/armor or the resnodes or a TF + 4 turrets AT a node that I'd have to pass on the MT. Any marine worth their salt pays attention to sound, and marines should be moving in groups (and I always recommend a straggler to watch for stalking skulks or be armed bait for the rest of the squad to react to) to prevent single-skulk ambushes. It comes down to the level of play from the marine team, but if they can't shoot a celerity or silence skulk, MT isn't going to improve their aim either.
simply because i love being a skulk, even with 100 res, i'll only evolve to an onos or lerk if its needed.
Why do i love MC? to demonstrate i'll use an example of a game i played yesterday on a map. (can't remember map names for the life of me.)
first chamber goes up, ooh, its a movement. YAY!. right, silence it is then.
i went and hung around the marine spawn, slowly and sneakily picking off marines one by one. i thought i was doing ok. until i saw a marine that had pressed say instead of teamsay.
'RandomMarine: I aint going! theres loads of silenced skulks out there!'
Comments
Ive played multiple games where i dropped a SC down and put up the hive right under the marine's nose.
MC is only good for early skulk rushes but that is about it. Its mid-game and end-game benefits arent very good. If Marines do 2 hive locked down your basically **** if MC is your hive chamber. A movement alien isnt going to help much against HA/HMGers even if you are Onos.
Cloaked or carapaced <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you will never pull that off against good marines
MC pulls you out of tight fixes, oh hell yeah it does, it increases combat capability much more so than sensory
if marines occupy a hive and you have sensory they had better damn well place an obs there anyway. gg sensory
cloak traps do work, and SoF is a wallhack - yes these are useful
but if you must win against good marines, and now I'm talking each and every individual fight, MC + DC > SC
Placement, gentlemen, is the key for many things, including OC and DC, and SC at the third hive negates any use it would have given you. By then, the marines are being pushed back, their expansion is over, and the opportunity to ambush with SC/OC combos is gone.
I see people say MC benefits bigger creatures. This is true. However only hoarders have big creatures at game start. Yes, hoarders, because if you're so good that you've enough to go Fade in 3 minutes, then you should be going to a hive and capping it or building defence.
When hive 2 is up, the TEAM will be on their bigger creatures, and thats when MC gets the really big use.
Thats IMHO mind you, and to be honest I'm getting very tired of people claiming they're good, dropping MCs, then the team gets toasted and he turns round and blames the team for not being able to use the upgrade HE forced on them.
Each upgrade is conditional and usefulness depends very much on the team and how they use it. There is no such thing as an order where "SDM" is worse that "MDS". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's true tho that although each MC ability has good uses, it takes a good team to use them. This doesn't mean it's inferior, as clan matches attest, just that it takes more skill.
While you are building a hive / defenses the marines could be saving for ha train. While you are building and not killing the marines are free to assault elsewhere, maybe even ninja siege your hive. Doesn't mean you shouldn't build, obviously, but if you've got skilled fades / onos, don't waste them.
Placement, gentlemen, is the key for many things, including OC and DC, and SC at the third hive negates any use it would have given you. By then, the marines are being pushed back, their expansion is over, and the opportunity to ambush with SC/OC combos is gone.
I see people say MC benefits bigger creatures. This is true. However only hoarders have big creatures at game start. Yes, hoarders, because if you're so good that you've enough to go Fade in 3 minutes, then you should be going to a hive and capping it or building defence.
When hive 2 is up, the TEAM will be on their bigger creatures, and thats when MC gets the really big use.
Thats IMHO mind you, and to be honest I'm getting very tired of people claiming they're good, dropping MCs, then the team gets toasted and he turns round and blames the team for not being able to use the upgrade HE forced on them.
Each upgrade is conditional and usefulness depends very much on the team and how they use it. There is no such thing as an order where "SDM" is worse that "MDS". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply put, I believe your wrong. Its next to impossible to totally balance game play like this. I would like to agree that all three chambers are viable at the start because they are, but some are more viable then others. YES! all three can get you a win, but some chambers will make it alot easier if used correctly. I'm not going to disclose which chambers I like first because It will just make anyone againt my personal favorite disregard this post entirely saying 'noob' or some other remark, but eventually I can forsee a normal build order evolve in 2.0/2.1. Wether it be sdm, mds, or any other will play it self out over time.
SilverSurfie: I doubt anyone will agree that sc give greater benifits to higher lifeforms then mc's do. I believe most of the sc fans contest that sc's allow more map domination early game to ensure more rsr nodes/hives which will eventually give you a better game. But, they will not say having sc's over mc's is better for the onos/fade.
Exactly SCs allows early map domination = slow rine expansion = slow teching = GG Aliens Win.
SCs arent entirely bad for late game either. If you want to stop rines of expanding to your 2nd hive from their third. Using SoF to track rines and under cloak, your going to decimate those marines that are trying to push through your defenses. Its scary seeing a Onos come out of cloak stomping and devouring you.
Thats all i really need at end game as Onos, and SC w/ lots of DCs next to it. Being able to run a lil bit faster is really going to help me catch that retreating marine. *sarcasm* Or Silence is really going to help me when i run around the corner and see 5 SG marines sitting there waiting for me.
Stomp = immobile marine = devoured marine = you dont need to chase him = no need for MC.
SoF = legal wallhack = unlimited tactical information = no way you will be caught by surprise = scared shitless marines = priceless.
True but what I'm saying here is that the one person with the big res goes off for hive, while the rest of the team are still presumably harassing the enemy. Yes, the marines will likely be saving up but it'll still be under some pressure - and once Hive 2 is up your higher creature will be much more effective. The choice is essentially this -
Good skulker - goes fade on one hive - makes some kills, dies, goes fade, hopes someone else stores up the res for hive.
Good skulker - builds hive 2 - makes more kills (with 2 hive abilities), MIGHT die, goes fade, knows that the team are using 2 hive traits rather than struggling along on one hive.
"Doesn't mean you shouldn't build, obviously, but if you've got skilled fades / onos, don't waste them."
And IMHO a part of their use is making up the shortfall if the team suck. If the team suck, you use your res to do what they cant - build hives, build chambers, and perhaps some defence. They cant. You rely on them to do it? You lose. Since a skilled player is a skilled player, he'll do more damage faster with his extra traits, and won't be handicapped. Whereas an unskilled player will blow all his res which he can't honestly replace too quickly.
"Simply put, I believe your wrong. Its next to impossible to totally balance game play like this."
Balance in what sense? I'm not sure I understand *which* of my points you're addressing.
"but some are more viable then others."
Yes and no. It is TEAM dependent. As I stated - no one player will win the match. You can be NS' best ever fade but you are CRIPPLED if your teammates can do nothing. Truth be told, in recent games I prefer MC for adrenaline. Thats because I get to lerk very quickly. However, if I'm on a server full of people barely making skulk, then I realise that Sensory will be more useful for the bulk of the team. I disagree that there is any one chamber order that works for ALL situations. It just does not exist. In a team of nubs, MDS kills you. In a team of skilled players, SDM slows the game. Reverse it, and both games are instantly improved. The effectiveness of a chamber is based on the team using it - its is NOT based on some designated list of "better orders".
"I'm not going to disclose which chambers I like first because It will just make anyone againt my personal favorite disregard this post entirely saying 'noob' or some other remark"
Well thats your option, but to be honest if you're not prepared to post up your preference and why, then its adds very little credence to your opinion. Second, I may be new myself but I credit the forum with enough civility that this thread won't devolve into n00bcalling.
Here's how it worked for me. When I was new, and good only at gorge, I preferred Sens. I could get a free bite in on any marine, I could scout, and I could play fatal ambushes. Now that I am a better player, I don't need a sensory "safety net" but instead movement so that I can maximise my kill rate. Thats the natural evolution of things. In fact in some games these days I even go def first if we're getting rushed. I go by the team's view, and by opponent action. Keeping a fixed list that you MUST obey seems horribly horribly flawed.
"but eventually I can forsee a normal build order evolve in 2.0/2.1"
I don't think there will ever be a "normal" build order. I'm more of the opinion that it will constantly change depending on team ability and opponent actions. But hey, different strokes right?
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Get it through your heads, silence doesn't help against marines that know more than spray and pray.
Start up NS. Go marine (oh the horror) and look in the upper right hand corner.
See that? Obviously its a surprise to you MC Uber Alles folks. Its a mini-map! Wow! What does it show? Well, that green thing is you! Wave at the camera! Wait, what's that red thing 'sneaking' up behind you oh so silently? Its a skulk, that's got level 3 silence and thinks he's leet. Bang. Exit not so leet skulk.
It takes _nothing to keep an eye on the mini-map. Or to place the overview map key where you can easily reach it while running around. Aliens show up as nasty red blotches. Who cares if they are silent? Mini-map doesn't care.
So, if you are 'sneaking' up silently ninja style on those marines, well, its because they are idiots. And you could take them out without any chambers at all.
And the hivemind forbid that the marines have motion tracking. Now your leet silent ninjaskulk...shows up as a big blue blob. So he's blue and red and dead all over. Sounds like a old joke, what's blue and red and green, a silent skulk bleeding in the hive.
Where as my cloaked skulk? He's over there picking bits of marines out of his teeth, they didn't see _him coming til it was too late. Mini-map, MT, they don't show a cloaked skulk in the shadows.
And if you honestly think the marines will have Obs everywhere, dream on. They shouldn't have the res, and they won't have enough energy in the few obs they have, to scan everywhere.
9 times out of 10 a good marine will kill you while your running up to them.
as for the SC not useful for taking back a hive lockdown... first i ask are you on crack? 2nd, when does giving you the ability to cloak allowing you to put up the hive under the marines "protection" or giving you the ability to scope out the TF placement w/o getting shot letting you probe for the most vulnerable or advantageous bilebomb position not "useful"
As for the fades need MC thing thats y you fail when SC is dropped first. Instead of being greedy and saving up res to evolve you should be out there helping your fellow gorges building that SC network instead of "having fun." You think we gorges enjoy playing as gorge? (well i actually do)
SC is a lockdown type of chamber. If used properly SC gives aliens the ability to lockdown majority of the map making marine expanding difficult. So instead of hogging all the glory help your team not yourself.
only knack to it is having a smart skulk nearby to distract the turrets for the first few seconds until the hive cloaks.
Scanning only works when the marines travel together (as the comm can't be scanning all over the place) and when the comm can multitask effectively.
Most pub marines don't move in one large group, and most pub comms can't multitask effectively.
Thus, on public servers, opening with sensory is highly effective. However a talented commander can shut down an SC defense with remarkable haste.
Scanning only works when the marines travel together (as the comm can't be scanning all over the place) and when the comm can multitask effectively.
Most pub marines don't move in one large group, and most pub comms can't multitask effectively.
Thus, on public servers, opening with sensory is highly effective. However a talented commander can shut down an SC defense with remarkable haste. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed but when matched against me. I scatter ALOT of SCs and honestly work on building a very good SC cloaking network. So 1) you dont have enough energy to scan everywhere. 2) I make Obs my primary targets when i bilebomb. 3) You need to build multiple Obs if you want to counter my SC network effectively. And even then on some maps you wont be able to kill them cause im elite SC gorge builder. :-p
As for the "elite" silent skulks, yeah, silence works on newbies or on preoccupied marines building... But movement also gives celerity, and even if your so madly in love with your hud, a celerity skulk will be on ya in no time, even if you do have a general direction which way he is coming from.
Does sensory have its place, most definitely, as a large area suppression/scouting tool, beyond that, not as effective.
Oh and someone mind telling me why DC shouldn't be first since it is almost always second? :-)
With defense, the bonuses can be negated to some degree with weapons upgrades, and higher level weapons. But the movement chamber bonuses cannot be negated as such, since marines can't tap you energy (besides prolonging life with armour upgrades), and they can't do anything to negate celerity and silence.
As long as there isn't one chamber that is much better than the others, unpredictability will be the best way to go.
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Bull. Complete and utter bull. An observatory within its LIMITED effective range will strip cloak. That is a VERY small area. One observatory does NOT do more than protect a SINGLE SMALL outpost from cloak.
Sensory's cloak and scent is nice. But if your hittin a base or know where they are (remember that old skulk skill, parasite?)
Defense.. well, regen is ok, but only once you have more hp. poor on a skulk. Carapace doesnt do half what it used to do. And redemption is only for the Onos glory hogs.
Defense chambers I feel are better and the only reasonable excuse for putting them down. And thats assuming you have res spare to spam some ocs with em to make silly WoL.
But movement... Ahh.
Makes the lerk happy, makes the fade happy.
A gorge can bomb and spray like crazy. And thats just adrenaline.
Celerity all can have fun with, specially a skulk. Or silence.
I believe MDS is the way now.
Anyways, just spam evolve to gorge, then drop a movement, then quickly skulk up or kill self. So they dont see who the gorge is on the list.
Sure the noobs will cry about no sensory = lose, but the more skilled players wont complain and bring home the bacon regardless.
Thats the type of attitude i hate and why i hate going MDS. If i drop a SC i back it up by staying Gorge most of the game because i decided on the type of strategy aliens are going to use for the entire game. I back myself up instead of being a lil wuss needing MC to help me kill stuff and dont take responsiblity for dropping it.
If i drop SC im going to do the best in my power to use it to its full potential.
Movement: every evolve is an advantage. It doesn't negate a disadvantage produced by the marines. Silence + patience = perfect ambush now that the attacks are silent as well. Celerity: saves gorges and makes skulks more likely to get to the marines with fewer shots fired overall. Adrenaline: Lerk being viable as a 1st hive alien (yes, in 1.04, quality lerking could save games and NOT by spiking from vents), adrenaline is very helpful.
Defense: Some of the evolves are an advantage, but most just negate disadvantages. Redemption: Pointless as a skulk as it takes less time to spawn than it does to heal and return to action. Carapace: The skulks best friend in a spray and pray situation, you can catch a bullet or two more without biting the dust. Same goes for lerk, especially as it's used w/o the umbra/bite combo from 1.04. Regen: for those lonely rambo aliens who venture far from hives and chambers but live long enough to keep hitting the marines.
Sensory: Only one evolve is a clear advantage, one negates a disadvantage and one is freaking pointless. Pheremones: does anyone actually EVER use this upgrade when scent of fear is far better? SoF: clearly the best sensory upgrade for any hive status, that is, if your gorges are dropping sensory chambers around the map to provide adequate cloaking. This is the only clear advantage to sensory first. Cloaking: personal cloaking is pointless in a map with good gorging unless you're hiding in an out of the way place "saving for hive." proper cloaking is from the sens chamber itself, doesn't make noise when you move and negates motion tracking. This removes teh disadvantage that MT places on aliens, but MT rushes aren't a core Marine strat anymore, especially competitively. You'll find more marines that turret farm the base early or electrify their nodes than rush to MT early on. MT is usually a late game, help the HA train, icin on the cake for a Marine team w/ 45 extra res to blow. However, cloaking from chambers or personal cloaking is countered by a ping or nearby observatory, at which point it is wholly negated.
So here's my question for the gorges out there: Would you rather drop a chamber that provides a clear advantage for EVERY playing style, or force your team into a chamber that has _one_ clear advantage over the marines and force them to cater to YOUR playing style? For me, as a gorge, kharaa and NS player, TEAM comes far before ME, and that's why i'll drop a hive rather than save for fade or onos in the early or midgame. Call me naiive and hopeful, but teamplay is what I play NS for, and that's why Movement Chambers are always dropped first every chance I get, and every time someone asks. Dchambers are too passive a gaming style for first hive aliens, as they promote holding back, which allows marines to node rush and tech early.
but that's just my $0.02
I just find SC more useful because my clan likes playing aggressive map control. SCs improve skulks chances when engaged against multiple marines. Improving ambush success combined w/ cloaking chokepoints = aliens getting all 3 hives = the win.
Normally I use an exploit to get 3 down and then put up a hive.
Im saying though, in the long run, the M is better and more efficient.
I dont even play with my sound up higher than a mouses fart so I dont know about all the sound issues.
All MC evolutions are countered by MT. Which require an Ob. For Obs to effectively counter SC you need about 2-3 obs to have enough energy to scan constantly. So the counter for MCs is cheaper then the counter for SC.
1 Ob will not provide you enough energy to scan every position, especially if marines are expanding aggressively. Do you know how long it takes to charge up 25 energy? Quite long.
ANd ive SGed a leaping Skulk so yeah even that wont save you and i consider myself a decent shot.
Makes the lerk happy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it doesnt make the lerks happy. Too risky to lerk without either regen or SOF. adrenline good 2nd hive. The smallest ambush or wall in your way and your a dead lerk. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
All MC evolutions are countered by MT. Which require an Ob. For Obs to effectively counter SC you need about 2-3 obs to have enough energy to scan constantly. So the counter for MCs is cheaper then the counter for SC.
1 Ob will not provide you enough energy to scan every position, especially if marines are expanding aggressively. Do you know how long it takes to charge up 25 energy? Quite long.
ANd ive SGed a leaping Skulk so yeah even that wont save you and i consider myself a decent shot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's part of the problem, is kharaa misconceptions concerning marines. By the time a second hive <i>should or is</i> going up, the marines have probably capped a few nodes, maybe locked down a hive, upgraded weapons and armor at least a level a piece, and if they don't see sensory skulks, MAY have gone phase tech rather than getting prepped for an HA train. MT rushes are pointless and rare for the marines, and the minimap negates MT to a certain extent if used intelligently. I don't know about the servers you guys play on, but witht he experienced vets/playtesters I've had comm and win as a marine, MT was something we had against first hive aliens ONLY if we'd had the other two hives locked down. It's the common misconception that marines actually rush MT against first hive aliens that causes the "Sensory negates MT" debate. Sensory as a second hive chamber could be used in that debate, but hives go up way to quickly now to make it plausible for marines to be MT rushing that often. And many times the only observatories I see not involved with phase tech are there to ping for sieges, and MT is a late game addition for the HA train as it barrels across the map.
But I may just play on more advanced servers where commanders use build orders that dont cater to marines that are incapable of taking care of themselves and checking rooms for hiding skulks without needing big blue circles to point the way. That's probably also the reason that sensory first is generally pointless on these servers as well. Without the necessity of negating a pointlessly ezpensive marine upgrade that is rarely seen in early game, movements are far superior. The thing that strikes me as possibly the dumbest thing of all is finding EVERY NODE that kharaa have capped w/ a sensory chamber next to it. Like the marines will fail to notice the lack of a tall white stream of res coming from it.
Plus you have to realize that Movements for 1st hive chamber can save your second hive as it first goes up by allowing kharaa to get across the map quickly and efficiently rather than running the whole way. Although this no longer applies to building hives, it directly increases a full hives chances of survival under a marine rush. Of course, an organized marine rush coming that late in a round probably means they'll lose the round due to lack of initiative in the first place.
You dont need MT if the aliens suck though.
simply because i love being a skulk, even with 100 res, i'll only evolve to an onos or lerk if its needed.
Why do i love MC? to demonstrate i'll use an example of a game i played yesterday on a map. (can't remember map names for the life of me.)
first chamber goes up, ooh, its a movement. YAY!. right, silence it is then.
i went and hung around the marine spawn, slowly and sneakily picking off marines one by one. i thought i was doing ok. until i saw a marine that had pressed say instead of teamsay.
'RandomMarine: I aint going! theres loads of silenced skulks out there!'
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