Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I asked in like 5 servers if we could go MC first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This actually belongs in the Kharaa Strategy forum, where I made <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=42569' target='_blank'>this little thread</a> on exactly the same topic just a little while ago. The MC isn't BETTER than the SC (I consider them to be about equal), but I agree that it's nice to have a little variety. And even if SCs were better, the marines lose so much that there's nothing wrong with giving them a chance and having fun with silence at the same time.
I don't think you guys realise that Sensory is complete crap in offensive attacks. I've been in plenty of games where marines have locked down the third hive, stopping movement chambers, and me telling myself, that if I just ad adren, or celerity, we could easily take the hive back with celerity onos and adren lerks and fades. But no.. we get sensory instead
What good is scent of fear if you know exactly where the marines are any way? They'ere behidn that wall of turrets waiting for their HA to come stomp us.. Well I suppose onos could cloak and hope to god that the marines are blind as bats enough to allow them to get close enough to devour at that point.
What good is an onos if it doesn't have celerity? I personally can't stand how slow the onos move now and find celerity as a must. Silence on a skulk is freaking awesome. Any one that knows how to use a fade correctly will absolutely love having movement as a first or second chamber..
Personally, I like MC/DC/SC, Sensory is nice.. but crap for being offensive. I don't know about the coms you guys go up against.. but when I jump in the chair and realise that aliens have sensory, the very first thing I do is build 2 obs and scanner sweep spam every area my marines run into.
How do i convince you that peeps have the right to play the way they want ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ?
As the game stands right now, MC's give the best advantage for aliens at hive one. What's that, hive under attack? Boy am I glad I built that MC so I can jump right back to the hive and save it. Gee, I'd feel really bad if I had built a sensory first and screwed everyone over since they have to run back as fast as they can (not as fast as with celerity) to the hive before it dies.
I've been foiled on every hive 1 kill due to MCs. They just warp back and the slaughtering begins. I've even lost an aggressive expansion strat due to a celerity skulk pack decimating everything I had. MCs are a thing to be feared.
No other chamber offers as many advantages as the hive-1 MC, in 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--Operaman+Aug 14 2003, 01:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Operaman @ Aug 14 2003, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want to get into a heated arguement here, but I feel getting SC first is great because then you can put up RTs, and defend them without offense towers. I also think it is much easier to get the second hive when you have sensory because you can move around without being seen, or killed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to single out this guy, but this is the problem right here! SC cloaking a RT hardly makes it safe AT ALL! I and everyone else always will walk to a RT and bump it to see if anything is there, or just shoot the area.
SCs only hide you for so long, as soon as you attack your found out and ppl know that there is a SC in the area, meaning Scanner Sweep and that 10 res is down the drain.
SC was fun and tactical at first when 2.0 came out, but now ppl are only doing it for the fun, and the tactics are being left out! Most ppl don't consider how useful a MC or even a DC is compared to being able to cloak an area!
It took me a few rounds to get over my SC first syndrom, but now I never want to put SC first, if it goes up first, I can live with it, but I still try to get MC up second.
PPL LISTEN TO ME PUT YOUR CHAMBERS UP LIKE THIS: <b><span style='color:green'>Movement </span></b><b><span style='color:blue'>Defense </span></b><b><span style='color:red'>Sensory</span></b> YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER GAME AND WONT FIND THE MARINES SO STRONG ANYMORE!
<!--QuoteBegin--Wake+Aug 14 2003, 02:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wake @ Aug 14 2003, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do i convince you that peeps have the right to play the way they want ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should read <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=42569' target='_blank'>my thread</a> then. It's much more friendly and light-hearted.
How do you convince people that the team did do a lot of testing to make sure each chamber was viable and although gave different results, each could help you win. At the end, it's all to your personal prefrence. Freaking out and yelling MCS ONLY EVERY TIME I MUST WIN THIS EKEK ^__^ isnt really a solution. Sure, if you want no variety, choose mc's every time. I know a lot of people like to do something different each game to make it more fun instead of just doing the same old thing to "win".
<!--QuoteBegin--Wake+Aug 14 2003, 07:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wake @ Aug 14 2003, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do i convince you that peeps have the right to play the way they want ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> youragod
I am in the camp of sensory first. I am a decent gorge, and when sensory is down I make an effort to populate the map with those chambers. I do this for the new players, or the Aliens that need an "edge".
In addition, I have played with good comm's that use scanner sweeps and build obs. The simple fact is that they are only human, and Obs only have so much energy. In the end the 1st chamber is a means to an end. It makes getting the other hives easier as your team can bottle the marines.
The only chamber I find difficult to use first is Def. It feels to me to be a 2nd or 3rd chamber. 2nd is probibly the best as that is when Oni start to appear and I'll admit it, they NEED def chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Aug 14 2003, 07:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Aug 14 2003, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If SCs keep the comm busy scanning everywhere and putting lots of obs down instead of branching out and upgrading, how can you say that isnt useful or an offensive tactic? Esp. in the early game, when res is rare and important to use correctly as a marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has it occured to you that you've also wasted resources placing SC's to begin with. Instead of doing the alien thing of rapidly spreading everywhere like a cancer, most sensory first aliens are busy stuffing around their various sensory chambers. If you can easily scan to find and tag these, the aliens have wasted BOTH time and res. Celerity from movements not only lets aliens defend better, it aids their expansion by a ton. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But the same can be said where you waste you res on Obs and you will never have enough energy to find ALL of the SCs i placed. That being said for every game that I dropped an SC and 4 DC next to a rine base not once has it fallen to rine attacks. Now imagine you walk by those DCs and they are visable because aliens went MDS and we are trying to take the 3rd hive. If you fail the assault w/ MCs and DCs rines will just continue to push you out. On the other hand if a SC and DCs assault fails, they will be pushing out into your cloaked areas = marines getting owned by skulks.
movement is my favoured first alien upgrade.. (a lerk with adren. is such a pest to marines with no heavy armour)
however i think sensory is the best as first because while the map is still young aliens have the chance to place random sensory chambers over the map.. making cloaked aliens throughout the map.. the only problem with sensory is that it limits assaults for aliens.. its more an ambush trait
i must agree with BarxBaron.. i really don't care what trait goes up first
and i like it that way.. if every server i join has the same trait tactic .. eg mov. def. sens .. it'll just make for a boring predictable game everyday ..
<!--QuoteBegin--meanie+Aug 14 2003, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meanie @ Aug 14 2003, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> movement is my favoured first alien upgrade.. (a lerk with adren. is such a pest to marines with no heavy armour)
however i think sensory is the best as first because while the map is still young aliens have the chance to place random sensory chambers over the map.. making cloaked aliens throughout the map.. the only problem with sensory is that it limits assaults for aliens.. its more an ambush trait <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> who said ability to ambush extremely well isnt offensive?
Offensive Function: Adjective Date: circa 1548 1 a : making attack : AGGRESSIVE b : of, relating to, or designed for attack <offensive weapons> c : of or relating to an attempt to score in a game or contest; also : of or relating to a team in possession of the ball or puck
Ambush Function: noun Date: 15th century 1 : a trap in which concealed persons lie in wait to attack by surprise 2 : the persons stationed in ambush; also : their concealed position 3 : an attack especially from an ambush
If you can deprive rines from getting that 3rd hive and prevent the lockdown, its to your advantage. No way is a Movement skulk is gonna take out that pack of 5 rines by himself. It can be done w/ an SC.
My own rule for whether its good or not depends on the size and layout of the map.
Big maps - Movement Small maps - Sensory
In a big map you need the movement ability for speed. Quick reaction to hive attacks from the other side of the map is essential.
On the smaller maps, especially eclipse, it doesnt cost much to blanket one whole side of the map in sensory chambers. My personal favourite for sensory is one in the vent at power sub junction and then waddle over to the vent at computer core and put one there too. With just these two chambers you can create a lot of ambushes around a heavy traffic area. Then you have the vent in triad and the vents in south loop. So with 4-6 sensory chambers, all in vents and difficult for marines to access, you can have a large proportion of the map cloaked, in which aliens can move around freely and unchallenged.
In the end I dont mind too much. If its a big map and we plan to cloak the double res and wait for the inevitable arrival of the marines at this vital point then, I dont mind.
The one problem I have with sensory first is that its hard to get anyone to agree to movement chambers second. The people saving for onos don't want to live without their carapace/redemption/regeneration and the underutilised/undervalued classes of lerk and fades all suffer from the lack of movement. The only redeeming factor in this situation is that you usually have the third hive up not long after, so you don't need to wait that long. If this was not the case however, then I might be less inclined to bow to the selfish needs of the carapace lovers and would push for S/M/D. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a regular player of the lerk and fade classes. I find the two abilities of adrenaline and scent of fear combine fabulously for a hit and run attacker. Fades have healing via metabolism at hive two by default, so defense chambers are not an issue. I think more onos should be willing to go without defense chamber abilities and just rely on a good group of gorges nearby and celerity for the necessary speed to avoid death.
You know imma try that SMD one of these days... Silence + Cloak + SoF... hmmm the possiblities. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And for the record, im not saying that MC is a bad chamber, its evolutions are the best. But for MC to be effective your relying the skills and luck of the alien team and on pubs its somewhat lacking.
Wow.. after reading all these responses, I just laughed at all the people seemingly ignoring my long post, and just saying what I've already said.. or completely ignoring what I said and still saying, "OGMZ MC FO4EVAR!"
Personaly I enjoy SC first (mostly because i try to create the most effective networks i can has a tactical exersize) followed by MC bucause a silent skulk who can run around the entire map (If i placed the SC right) is just plain nasty.
sorry if i had to reliterate something you said Tazol. But people that just say "MC pwns" have to be dealt w/. you understand right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If I could have just one trait, it would be scent of fear. Nothing else is as good.
I can hear it now, SoF won't help when you know where they are, in their base! Who cares? If we have them bottled in their base, its ggkthxbye time. Celerity, ooohh, I can now run in faster and die. Moderately useful. Better to use leap if you want to xeno, better to use blink, _much faster. Cel is nice as a onos, but onos is just _one of 5 classes. And odds are, if we have them pinned, we have all three hives, and all chambers.
SC as first chamber rocks, period. SoF or cloak makes for deadly effective ambushes. Silence? Erh, ya, works on marines that don't cover their 6. BFD. A moment of care, and your silent rush eats lmg. Ya, works great on solo marines, but hell, anything kills a lone rambo. A decent group of marines will have guns in all directions. Cloaked and sitting in their path, I get a kill before they even begin to pull a trigger, plenty of time to attack or flee, depending.
Silence is nice for partially negating ambushes, where a marine is sitting in a shadow, listening. But, with SoF, I know he's there before he gets a shot at me, negating the ambush completely.
SC first _slows down the marines dramatically. Either they are shooting everywhere trying to 'recon by fire', or they are spending resources they don't have to make obseravatories. Which can't scan everywhere, and the commander must divert his limited attention to do so.
A slowed marine team loses. Pin them down while you get the second hive up, and you have a serious advantage.
Adrenaline is about the only movement trait worth getting early, when bilebombing. As a lerk, I prefer SoF or regen over adrenaline. Knowing _exactly where and when to spore means the marines die without ever getting a shot at me. As they approach a corne, poof, spores in their face and I'm back around the next corner. They retreat, guess what? I see that too.
SC first _dramatically helps the gorge, no other chamber does as much to keep a gorge or hive alive. Sure, if the MC is nearby and the team knows where it is and they aren't already closer to the hive, and if they will actually go help the hive under attack, only if all those things are true, then the MC will help save the hive. Ya know, most of the time on pubs, none of those will be true. Most pubs, most games, MC won't help the hive. SC cloaking the OCs and the gorge, and the respawning skulks, that will help.
Repeatedly, the ability to cloak has saved me, as a gorge. I sure can't count on the damn skulks to protect me, just doesn't happen. I also can't count the number of times I've seen marines run in, around the RT and back out, without stopping, simply due to the nearby SC.
DC second is great. Regen for the lerks, carapace for the skulks and fades (who have metabolize at this point) and redemption to allow the onos to really tork the marines off.
When its MC first, its a race to get the second hive up before the marines take over. That's the norm on the various pubs, so I've seen. At that point, DC needs to be second, MC SC DC tends to be a problem.
Oh, and motion tracking? Cloak negates MT. Stop moving, wait a moment, the giveaway blue circle goes away. Observatories negate cloak, but its easier to cover the critical parts of the map with SCs than Obs.
SC DC MC works, its solid, and it doesn't depend on your team to have leet ubor mad skillz. Decent skills, ya, if you can't bite a marine no chamber will help you there. Mostly, people pushing MC first are trying to get their kill stats up, saving for onos, while yelling for more chambers and another hive to be built. I've yet to see a gorge (not a temp-gorge, a real gorge, one that stays gorge for most of the game) want MC first.
Also once you get that 2nd hive up Skulks get Leap. Neglating Celerity all together. You can close the distance on a rine faster by leaping then running.
In the end i would rather have all 3 hives instead of 2. Simple as that. SC is the way to go.
Somehow, i knew there would be a sensory cult in 2.0. i have played games with SC,MC, and DC as first, and honestly, i don't like starting up with cloak,ES and SoF. i prefer the more offensive orientated MC or a good for all DC.
maybe i'm still thinking 1.04, but the SC isn't really that powerfull, i would mostly drop it when playing defensive for the mass structure/player cloak and take it's abilitys as a nice bonus. a MC is more attack-orientated when it comes to abilitys. a skulk with double attack speed or movement speed can be a serious thread to most marines and the nice bonus is the hive teleportation. DCs can be used for defensive and offensive goals, both structure and upgrades(forward DC healing posts, regen in hives without any chamber, redemption for gorges, still the best all-round chamber i think).
Of course i still prefer the defense chamber. it was the best first chamber in 1.04, and it still rocks in 2.0.
i know how to ambush and i know cloak can be fun but i prefer the other chambers. that might make me a noob by many, but i couldn't care less, 'cause the best thing is to pick a chamber that the team wants/can use.
Scent of fear allows for quick kills early on, if you have a coordinated team you can plop sens in double nodes or important rooms like Miasima Walkway or generator room. Effective ambushing leads to a very qick second hive... what was the record? 2:58 for hive 2 ?
your welcome to your own opinions and thats fine w/ me.
I would rather have 1 cloaked skulk guarding a choakpoint then having that celerity skulk try and attack a rine headon. If you deny marines from expanding quickly aliens have the game in the bag.
Going MC is risky and i would rather have the security SC gives me allowing me to analyse the situation and engage the enemy on my terms instead of theirs.
Standing in the middle of the room cloaked: 10 res Watching 5 rines run by you and start attacking the RT: 15 res Kill all 5 rines when you come out of cloak: Priceless
Thats not the worse whine i've heard my fav whiner said "WHO STOLE MY SHOTGUN WHEN I DIED OH CHRIST GIVE IT BACK....." (little later) "WE LOST BECAUSE YOU DIDNT GIVE ME MY SHOTGUN"
<!--QuoteBegin--Operaman+Aug 14 2003, 01:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Operaman @ Aug 14 2003, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't want to get into a heated arguement here, but I feel getting SC first is great because then you can put up RTs, and defend them without offense towers. I also think it is much easier to get the second hive when you have sensory because you can move around without being seen, or killed.
I don't know if I am the only one, but getting SoF early in the game is devastating to the marine team and their frantic rush for res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree, most marines will check to see if there is a free node there
Comments
Sensory is g.h.e.y if you ask me.
Play at COFR.
The MC isn't BETTER than the SC (I consider them to be about equal), but I agree that it's nice to have a little variety. And even if SCs were better, the marines lose so much that there's nothing wrong with giving them a chance and having fun with silence at the same time.
What good is scent of fear if you know exactly where the marines are any way? They'ere behidn that wall of turrets waiting for their HA to come stomp us.. Well I suppose onos could cloak and hope to god that the marines are blind as bats enough to allow them to get close enough to devour at that point.
What good is an onos if it doesn't have celerity? I personally can't stand how slow the onos move now and find celerity as a must. Silence on a skulk is freaking awesome. Any one that knows how to use a fade correctly will absolutely love having movement as a first or second chamber..
Personally, I like MC/DC/SC, Sensory is nice.. but crap for being offensive. I don't know about the coms you guys go up against.. but when I jump in the chair and realise that aliens have sensory, the very first thing I do is build 2 obs and scanner sweep spam every area my marines run into.
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ?
I've been foiled on every hive 1 kill due to MCs. They just warp back and the slaughtering begins. I've even lost an aggressive expansion strat due to a celerity skulk pack decimating everything I had. MCs are a thing to be feared.
No other chamber offers as many advantages as the hive-1 MC, in 2.0.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to single out this guy, but this is the problem right here!
SC cloaking a RT hardly makes it safe AT ALL!
I and everyone else always will walk to a RT and bump it to see if anything is there, or just shoot the area.
SCs only hide you for so long, as soon as you attack your found out and ppl know that there is a SC in the area, meaning Scanner Sweep and that 10 res is down the drain.
SC was fun and tactical at first when 2.0 came out, but now ppl are only doing it for the fun, and the tactics are being left out!
Most ppl don't consider how useful a MC or even a DC is compared to being able to cloak an area!
It took me a few rounds to get over my SC first syndrom, but now I never want to put SC first, if it goes up first, I can live with it, but I still try to get MC up second.
PPL
LISTEN TO ME
PUT YOUR CHAMBERS UP LIKE THIS: <b><span style='color:green'>Movement </span></b><b><span style='color:blue'>Defense </span></b><b><span style='color:red'>Sensory</span></b>
YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER GAME AND WONT FIND THE MARINES SO STRONG ANYMORE!
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should read <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=42569' target='_blank'>my thread</a> then. It's much more friendly and light-hearted.
How do i convince you that they have the right to think their own way ?
How do i convince you that they have the right to do it wihout being insulted ?
How do i convince you that there are many ways in NS, each with its pros and cons, and that this is the reason why it is a rich game ?
How do i convince myself from not sending your insults back at your face because i am so tired of peeps who are so sure of themselves that they feel they have the (divine ?) right to treat others as pieces of crap ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
youragod
2) do not underestimate carapace, even in its nerfed form.....and especially regen on lerks is a force to be reakoned with when they are on annoy duty
3) never underestimate the power of MCs' insta hive transport (to whoever said the MC chamber itself sucked)
these 3 reasons are why I dont really care which chamber goes up first
In addition, I have played with good comm's that use scanner sweeps and build obs. The simple fact is that they are only human, and Obs only have so much energy. In the end the 1st chamber is a means to an end. It makes getting the other hives easier as your team can bottle the marines.
The only chamber I find difficult to use first is Def. It feels to me to be a 2nd or 3rd chamber. 2nd is probibly the best as that is when Oni start to appear and I'll admit it, they NEED def chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If SCs keep the comm busy scanning everywhere and putting lots of obs down instead of branching out and upgrading, how can you say that isnt useful or an offensive tactic? Esp. in the early game, when res is rare and important to use correctly as a marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has it occured to you that you've also wasted resources placing SC's to begin with. Instead of doing the alien thing of rapidly spreading everywhere like a cancer, most sensory first aliens are busy stuffing around their various sensory chambers. If you can easily scan to find and tag these, the aliens have wasted BOTH time and res. Celerity from movements not only lets aliens defend better, it aids their expansion by a ton.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the same can be said where you waste you res on Obs and you will never have enough energy to find ALL of the SCs i placed. That being said for every game that I dropped an SC and 4 DC next to a rine base not once has it fallen to rine attacks. Now imagine you walk by those DCs and they are visable because aliens went MDS and we are trying to take the 3rd hive. If you fail the assault w/ MCs and DCs rines will just continue to push you out. On the other hand if a SC and DCs assault fails, they will be pushing out into your cloaked areas = marines getting owned by skulks.
(a lerk with adren. is such a pest to marines with no heavy armour)
however i think sensory is the best as first because while the map is still young aliens have the chance to place random sensory chambers over the map.. making cloaked aliens throughout the map.. the only problem with sensory is that it limits assaults for aliens.. its more an ambush trait
i must agree with BarxBaron.. i really don't care what trait goes up first
and i like it that way.. if every server i join has the same trait tactic ..
eg mov. def. sens .. it'll just make for a boring predictable game everyday ..
(a lerk with adren. is such a pest to marines with no heavy armour)
however i think sensory is the best as first because while the map is still young aliens have the chance to place random sensory chambers over the map.. making cloaked aliens throughout the map.. the only problem with sensory is that it limits assaults for aliens.. its more an ambush trait <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
who said ability to ambush extremely well isnt offensive?
Offensive
Function: Adjective
Date: circa 1548
1 a : making attack : AGGRESSIVE b : of, relating to, or designed for attack <offensive weapons> c : of or relating to an attempt to score in a game or contest; also : of or relating to a team in possession of the ball or puck
Ambush
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : a trap in which concealed persons lie in wait to attack by surprise
2 : the persons stationed in ambush; also : their concealed position
3 : an attack especially from an ambush
If you can deprive rines from getting that 3rd hive and prevent the lockdown, its to your advantage. No way is a Movement skulk is gonna take out that pack of 5 rines by himself. It can be done w/ an SC.
my opinion is as stands on this post..
Big maps - Movement
Small maps - Sensory
In a big map you need the movement ability for speed. Quick reaction to hive attacks from the other side of the map is essential.
On the smaller maps, especially eclipse, it doesnt cost much to blanket one whole side of the map in sensory chambers. My personal favourite for sensory is one in the vent at power sub junction and then waddle over to the vent at computer core and put one there too. With just these two chambers you can create a lot of ambushes around a heavy traffic area. Then you have the vent in triad and the vents in south loop. So with 4-6 sensory chambers, all in vents and difficult for marines to access, you can have a large proportion of the map cloaked, in which aliens can move around freely and unchallenged.
In the end I dont mind too much. If its a big map and we plan to cloak the double res and wait for the inevitable arrival of the marines at this vital point then, I dont mind.
The one problem I have with sensory first is that its hard to get anyone to agree to movement chambers second. The people saving for onos don't want to live without their carapace/redemption/regeneration and the underutilised/undervalued classes of lerk and fades all suffer from the lack of movement. The only redeeming factor in this situation is that you usually have the third hive up not long after, so you don't need to wait that long. If this was not the case however, then I might be less inclined to bow to the selfish needs of the carapace lovers and would push for S/M/D. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a regular player of the lerk and fade classes. I find the two abilities of adrenaline and scent of fear combine fabulously for a hit and run attacker. Fades have healing via metabolism at hive two by default, so defense chambers are not an issue. I think more onos should be willing to go without defense chamber abilities and just rely on a good group of gorges nearby and celerity for the necessary speed to avoid death.
And for the record, im not saying that MC is a bad chamber, its evolutions are the best. But for MC to be effective your relying the skills and luck of the alien team and on pubs its somewhat lacking.
you understand right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can hear it now, SoF won't help when you know where they are, in their base! Who cares? If we have them bottled in their base, its ggkthxbye time. Celerity, ooohh, I can now run in faster and die. Moderately useful. Better to use leap if you want to xeno, better to use blink, _much faster. Cel is nice as a onos, but onos is just _one of 5 classes. And odds are, if we have them pinned, we have all three hives, and all chambers.
SC as first chamber rocks, period. SoF or cloak makes for deadly effective ambushes. Silence? Erh, ya, works on marines that don't cover their 6. BFD. A moment of care, and your silent rush eats lmg. Ya, works great on solo marines, but hell, anything kills a lone rambo. A decent group of marines will have guns in all directions. Cloaked and sitting in their path, I get a kill before they even begin to pull a trigger, plenty of time to attack or flee, depending.
Silence is nice for partially negating ambushes, where a marine is sitting in a shadow, listening. But, with SoF, I know he's there before he gets a shot at me, negating the ambush completely.
SC first _slows down the marines dramatically. Either they are shooting everywhere trying to 'recon by fire', or they are spending resources they don't have to make obseravatories. Which can't scan everywhere, and the commander must divert his limited attention to do so.
A slowed marine team loses. Pin them down while you get the second hive up, and you have a serious advantage.
Adrenaline is about the only movement trait worth getting early, when bilebombing. As a lerk, I prefer SoF or regen over adrenaline. Knowing _exactly where and when to spore means the marines die without ever getting a shot at me. As they approach a corne, poof, spores in their face and I'm back around the next corner. They retreat, guess what? I see that too.
SC first _dramatically helps the gorge, no other chamber does as much to keep a gorge or hive alive. Sure, if the MC is nearby and the team knows where it is and they aren't already closer to the hive, and if they will actually go help the hive under attack, only if all those things are true, then the MC will help save the hive. Ya know, most of the time on pubs, none of those will be true. Most pubs, most games, MC won't help the hive. SC cloaking the OCs and the gorge, and the respawning skulks, that will help.
Repeatedly, the ability to cloak has saved me, as a gorge. I sure can't count on the damn skulks to protect me, just doesn't happen. I also can't count the number of times I've seen marines run in, around the RT and back out, without stopping, simply due to the nearby SC.
DC second is great. Regen for the lerks, carapace for the skulks and fades (who have metabolize at this point) and redemption to allow the onos to really tork the marines off.
When its MC first, its a race to get the second hive up before the marines take over. That's the norm on the various pubs, so I've seen. At that point, DC needs to be second, MC SC DC tends to be a problem.
Oh, and motion tracking? Cloak negates MT. Stop moving, wait a moment, the giveaway blue circle goes away. Observatories negate cloak, but its easier to cover the critical parts of the map with SCs than Obs.
SC DC MC works, its solid, and it doesn't depend on your team to have leet ubor mad skillz. Decent skills, ya, if you can't bite a marine no chamber will help you there. Mostly, people pushing MC first are trying to get their kill stats up, saving for onos, while yelling for more chambers and another hive to be built. I've yet to see a gorge (not a temp-gorge, a real gorge, one that stays gorge for most of the game) want MC first.
In the end i would rather have all 3 hives instead of 2. Simple as that. SC is the way to go.
i have played games with SC,MC, and DC as first, and honestly, i don't like starting up with cloak,ES and SoF.
i prefer the more offensive orientated MC or a good for all DC.
maybe i'm still thinking 1.04, but the SC isn't really that powerfull, i would mostly drop it when playing defensive for the mass structure/player cloak and take it's abilitys as a nice bonus. a MC is more attack-orientated when it comes to abilitys. a skulk with double attack speed or movement speed can be a serious thread to most marines and the nice bonus is the hive teleportation. DCs can be used for defensive and offensive goals, both structure and upgrades(forward DC healing posts, regen in hives without any chamber, redemption for gorges, still the best all-round chamber i think).
Of course i still prefer the defense chamber. it was the best first chamber in 1.04, and it still rocks in 2.0.
i know how to ambush and i know cloak can be fun but i prefer the other chambers. that might make me a noob by many, but i couldn't care less, 'cause the best thing is to pick a chamber that the team wants/can use.
I would rather have 1 cloaked skulk guarding a choakpoint then having that celerity skulk try and attack a rine headon. If you deny marines from expanding quickly aliens have the game in the bag.
Going MC is risky and i would rather have the security SC gives me allowing me to analyse the situation and engage the enemy on my terms instead of theirs.
Standing in the middle of the room cloaked: 10 res
Watching 5 rines run by you and start attacking the RT: 15 res
Kill all 5 rines when you come out of cloak: Priceless
I don't know if I am the only one, but getting SoF early in the game is devastating to the marine team and their frantic rush for res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, most marines will check to see if there is a free node there