The Key To Winning From Either Side Of The Map
Rat
Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11486Members
Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11486Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I'll probably regret this...</div> I've been around for quite sometime in NS, and I've seen many, many rounds played, in three separate versions of this game. At the same time, I've also worked at a rather high-scale restaurant in Houston, that deals with high volumes of both people and money as a waiter, expediter, and a prep cook. Until I began work in the kitchen, I was generally swamped by my job, because there was <i>so much to do within limited amounts of time</i>. We give 18 point service to every table, and have two things that are stressed above all else restaurant-wide: <i>pace and consolidation</i>. I didn't really understand how important and effective those two simple things were until our newest kitchen manager gave me a little pearl of wisdom on a one of our busiest nights while helping run the kitchen. I said "Man, there aren't any orders in, that means when the next wave of people come in, we're gonna get slammed." He promptly replied, "We'll only be slammed if we're not prepared. So what can we do now to help later?" And that's when I learned that the key to mastering both <i>pace</i> and <i>consolidation</i> was a simple little thing called <i>initiative</i>. When I applied this to my table-waiting, my job performance increased enormously. Everything flowed smoothly, got taken care of promptly, and on my busiest nights, I was strolling because it was so damned easy.
So carry this over to Natural Selection. And yes, there is a correlation. When looking at any single round of NS, I've found something to be true on the advanced servers I've played on: One side always gets destroyed. It doesn't matter whether I'm Kharaa or Marines, but one side or the other is always getting their butts handed to them at the end of the round. There are no more "barely won" scenarios where three heavies sneak out of base and kill one hive and weld each other staying alive long enough to weld the second hive and pull of a miracle victory like 1.04 had. There are no more lerks in vents taking down solitary turret farms to open a hive for the gorge to sneak up and pull out the miracle fades. It always ends with a last stand, with marines marching into or sieging a hive, or an onos tearing down the original base. That's because in every good round I've played, and every bad round I've played, one side took the initiative, and the other side sat with their thumbs in their anal orifices. It doesn't matter whether you're a marine or kharaa, intiative will win the map. I've watched hundreds of demos in three different mods, including this one, and I've found that in EVERY circumstance, the team that went out and took the round on their terms, with their timing and did so decisively and speedily won the round. EVERY time. Not most of the time, not some of the time, not every so often, _every single time_.
I've been in rounds as a kharaa where we had the marines crammed into their base like sardines, where they couldn't expand as their lives depended on it, and something shifted in the map, the kharaa got comfortable, and the marines got the victory. All of a sudden, a marine or two starts taking out resnodes and putting up their own, or they got into prime siege position while the complacent kharaa paid little heed to their comings and goings, and the hives started dropping. I've been in rounds where the marines had a two-hive lockdown, fully upgraded HA/HMG/Shotty trains inbound to the hive, and they stopped paying attention, got relaxed in their tactics, and opened up a hole. The balance in this game is something that is almost impossible to achieve for video games, and its something that competitive athletes in every sport, soldiers on every battlefield, and parents in every household understand: you have to decide when and where to pick your battles, do it on _your terms_ and press all your advantages home in a methodical fashion, leaving no room for mistakes or evasion. For all you that say certain aspects of the game are overpowered, I choose to disagree. Anyone that is willing to blame a loss on coding is so far from the truth that it hurts. Any true competitor knows at some point in every match whether it has been won or loss. The difficult part is making sure that they know that point, and make sure they're on the side that was the deciding factor.
I'm not going to be so arrogant as to tell commanders or marines or kharaa how they should take the initiatie, but the good ones out there know how its done. Map control isn't everything, and neither is teching up and HA rushing. Those who are bold risk failure. Those who are timid risk never achieving anything at all. It takes time and practice, along with others around you who believe as you do and want it as bad as you do. There is a reason that in every competitive league, from pro sports to peewee football or hockey to CAL to The CPL, certain teams always dominate, season after season after season. Sometimes it's only the influence of one person (like Lombardi and his Packers, Jordan and his Bulls, Johnson and Abdul-Jabaar's Lakers, Gherig and Ruth's Yankee's, Lance Armstrong's yellow jersies), but there is something that binds them all, and that is their capacity to not only seize the initiative, but to maintain their possession of it, every minute of every match, race or game.
So carry this over to Natural Selection. And yes, there is a correlation. When looking at any single round of NS, I've found something to be true on the advanced servers I've played on: One side always gets destroyed. It doesn't matter whether I'm Kharaa or Marines, but one side or the other is always getting their butts handed to them at the end of the round. There are no more "barely won" scenarios where three heavies sneak out of base and kill one hive and weld each other staying alive long enough to weld the second hive and pull of a miracle victory like 1.04 had. There are no more lerks in vents taking down solitary turret farms to open a hive for the gorge to sneak up and pull out the miracle fades. It always ends with a last stand, with marines marching into or sieging a hive, or an onos tearing down the original base. That's because in every good round I've played, and every bad round I've played, one side took the initiative, and the other side sat with their thumbs in their anal orifices. It doesn't matter whether you're a marine or kharaa, intiative will win the map. I've watched hundreds of demos in three different mods, including this one, and I've found that in EVERY circumstance, the team that went out and took the round on their terms, with their timing and did so decisively and speedily won the round. EVERY time. Not most of the time, not some of the time, not every so often, _every single time_.
I've been in rounds as a kharaa where we had the marines crammed into their base like sardines, where they couldn't expand as their lives depended on it, and something shifted in the map, the kharaa got comfortable, and the marines got the victory. All of a sudden, a marine or two starts taking out resnodes and putting up their own, or they got into prime siege position while the complacent kharaa paid little heed to their comings and goings, and the hives started dropping. I've been in rounds where the marines had a two-hive lockdown, fully upgraded HA/HMG/Shotty trains inbound to the hive, and they stopped paying attention, got relaxed in their tactics, and opened up a hole. The balance in this game is something that is almost impossible to achieve for video games, and its something that competitive athletes in every sport, soldiers on every battlefield, and parents in every household understand: you have to decide when and where to pick your battles, do it on _your terms_ and press all your advantages home in a methodical fashion, leaving no room for mistakes or evasion. For all you that say certain aspects of the game are overpowered, I choose to disagree. Anyone that is willing to blame a loss on coding is so far from the truth that it hurts. Any true competitor knows at some point in every match whether it has been won or loss. The difficult part is making sure that they know that point, and make sure they're on the side that was the deciding factor.
I'm not going to be so arrogant as to tell commanders or marines or kharaa how they should take the initiatie, but the good ones out there know how its done. Map control isn't everything, and neither is teching up and HA rushing. Those who are bold risk failure. Those who are timid risk never achieving anything at all. It takes time and practice, along with others around you who believe as you do and want it as bad as you do. There is a reason that in every competitive league, from pro sports to peewee football or hockey to CAL to The CPL, certain teams always dominate, season after season after season. Sometimes it's only the influence of one person (like Lombardi and his Packers, Jordan and his Bulls, Johnson and Abdul-Jabaar's Lakers, Gherig and Ruth's Yankee's, Lance Armstrong's yellow jersies), but there is something that binds them all, and that is their capacity to not only seize the initiative, but to maintain their possession of it, every minute of every match, race or game.
Comments
Can you please stop talking for all of us? I myself have had many miracle victories involving giving 8 light marines all shotguns and sending them to all the hives as a last ditch effort while onos destory our base.
Can you please stop talking for all of us? I myself have had many miracle victories involving giving 8 light marines all shotguns and sending them to all the hives as a last ditch effort while onos destory our base. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if a one hive onos is killing your base.....ah, never mind.
Btw, do you think clans have better initiative taking than the average newb pubber?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 8 light marines all shotguns and sending them to all the hive<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>s</span> as a last ditch effort <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won a game on ns_viel yesterday by giving every marine a shotgun and sending them to pipeline, took it out, moved on to second, killed it, moved on to third, all aliens stopped attacking our base and killed all my marines. They spawned and I gave them all shotties again they went to the third hive, killed it, went to the hive in subsector that they were rebuilding, killed it. Finally went back to pipeline and finished it.
Btw, do you think clans have better initiative taking than the average newb pubber? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The only thing determined by the team at this point to be imbalanced is the onos devour/redeem. Nothing else is really out of kilter in all honesty. It's the level of competence and competition in the marine team that determines the match. Kharaa can be bad at times and still win, but a bad marine team, seeing as it is solely dependant on teamwork (meaning EVERYONE) can't afford to have too many weak links. It's the nature of the game, and it's something that is overcome by experience, practice and tenacity.
2) In a word, yes. Average pub level of play is something that is never near that of clan play in ANY game I've encountered. Firearms Half Life, DoD, Cstrike, NS, it's at a completely different level. However, the styles of play are very different in pub vs. clan play. In a lot of pubs, you find about a third of your time taken up in either arguments or educating teammates as to the advantages/disadvantages of other appraoches, whereas most clans settle that in their weekly practices. Especially dealing w/ The CPL w/ CS....top prize at the Summer Event was $60k US if I remember correctly. The level of prep work that would go into winning $12k/person on the five men teams is something I would say is far different than pubbing. Pubbing isn't really used for clan prep, but more for sharpening individual skills for players. That both aids and detracts from the pub experience as clan vets are trying new approaches, while at the same time doing so <i>individually</i> in a <i>team</i>-based mod. That's where the line is drawn. You'll find the guys trying new relocation spots, new build orders, different placement on alien chambers, different techniques in support and assault from both sides, new siege locations, etc. However, the advantage/disadvantage of this type swings heavily marine if the person is commanding, as their individual skill and creativity effect the entire marine team's capacity to win as opposed to a lonely gorge on a 8-10 person team wandering off and trying out new things for himself. As uppity as it sounds, I am no clan player at this point in my gaming, but I have seen the effects of it in my past clan experiences. The level of play in a 5v5 or 6v6 round especially of NS is far more intense than in pub 8-10 v 10 play, because EVERY player has a more significant role and is a larger percentage of the effectiveness of the team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 8 light marines all shotguns and sending them to all the hive<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>s</span> as a last ditch effort <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won a game on ns_viel yesterday by giving every marine a shotgun and sending them to pipeline, took it out, moved on to second, killed it, moved on to third, all aliens stopped attacking our base and killed all my marines. They spawned and I gave them all shotties again they went to the third hive, killed it, went to the hive in subsector that they were rebuilding, killed it. Finally went back to pipeline and finished it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Light Armor Marines with Shotties took down four to five hives in a 3-hive alien situation? That's not what you call squeaking by with a victory...refer to my previous comments about kharaa complacency and assumption of victory. I'd say the shotty rush would be that single turning point where the initiative swung in marine favor, and if you light armor marines took out four hives, that's a rather decisive shift that late in the game.
My scenario dealt with some guys from [ECK] in 1.04 on a pub where the comm chair went down, the IPs went down, and the whole marine team was dead save 2 or 3 guys in HA. They took down both hives by shooting the first and welding the second while their other 6-8 teammates watched in joy. Not too many of those type of victories in 1.04, but I've yet to see any victory like that in the dozens of rounds I've played in 2.0
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=41193' target='_blank'>Not true.</a> What do you think the rest of the 2.1(previously 2.01) changes were for?
Actually flayra has already said that he has seen enough of skulks continualy raping marines to know that it is unbalanced. I'm sure someone will be willing to post a link to his post since I don't have it off hand.
In all honesty (please don't say this again because it is obviously just an attempt to make yourself sound legitimate) there are alot of things out of kilter. Read flayras post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) In a word, yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, thats all I wanted to hear.
1.) You say that the game is pretty well balanced, only a few things wrong.
2.) Marines consistantly loose on pubs.
3.) You say that all it takes to win is iniative. (one would assume that for some reason on pubs marines magicaly don't have that iniative game after game.)
4.) You agree that clans would be a better place to go for iniative than pubs (infact you gave a very long explanation to back it that I didn't bother to read).
5.) Marines in clan games (who supposaly have all this iniative) are loosing a higher percentage of games than pub players.
6.) You just screwed yourself over with your own argument. Obviously in clan matches when the newbies and luck that are in pubs are removed and marines are getting destroyed worst than ever there is more than a few things out of kilter. Onos stomp/devour imbalance doesn't explain away everything.
We aren't leading you to believe anything. The numbers are there in black and white. Marines loose more pub games than they win (alot more). In clan matches when luck and newbies that don't know how to evolve are removed marines get destroyed even more.
Well your deffinitaly right about it needing tweaking.
You should try and divide these long posts into paragraphs... no I don't care about proper grammar or any of that crap it just makes for easier reading.
<span style='color:gray'>***PLAY NICE***</span>
3.) You say that all it takes to win is iniative. (one would assume that for some reason on pubs marines magicaly don't have that iniative game after game.)
4.) You agree that clans would be a better place to go for iniative than pubs (infact you gave a very long explanation to back it that I didn't bother to read).
5.) Marines in clan games (who supposaly have all this iniative) are loosing a higher percentage of games than pub players.
6.) You just screwed yourself over with your own argument. Obviously in clan matches when the newbies and luck that are in pubs are removed and marines are getting destroyed worst than ever there is more than a few things out of kilter. Onos stomp/devour imbalance doesn't explain away everything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont say that all you need is initiative, never once do I claim that is "all you need." I'm saying it's the key ingredient when everything else is equal. When you look at the marine teams, most notably commanders, in the majority of pubs, they still attempt to play from a 1.04 mindset and rush to hold one RT then tech up. The marine teams I have been on that do the exact opposite, and expand quickly, and decisively (none of this drop a node, then tf and have your marines all build and get killed), lockind down nodes and RTs have been winning teams.
When looking at the Clan scene, and the intensity of play, yes, kharaa win more often. But it's not a statistical difference, it's in the concept of each team. The kharaa can thrive on individual action, and that is why everything on the kharaa team revolves around individual skill, customization, res and energy. They can afford to support a lower level of teamwork than any marine team can, and still come out as the more effective team. The marines on the other hand <b>require</b> extensive teamwork and can rarely afford individual/unguided action, especially in a smaller game where each player constitutes a larger percentage of the team.
Please don't ever refute one of my arguments by blatantly saying you didn't read it at all. Tell me how that supports a single thing you said anywhere in your post. I mean, I guess I could stop paying attention to it and just negate what it says by saying "Sorry, I'm too lazy to provide a valid argument, so I didn't read the fact that you failed to read mine" but that leads to circular, pointless bickering. Addressing your fifth point, I'm not saying the _MARINE_ team has more initiative in any clan game, I'm saying the _Clan TEAM_ in the match will on the whole demonstrate more intiative and creativity than you will find in the majority of any pub rounds.
And finally, addressing your last post, you're removing your own credibility by refusing to read any of my statements, and demonstrating your lack of anything meaningful to contribute. Please, don't ruin this thread as others have been. If you have nothing meaningful to contribute, please, use your back button or close your web browser. Take your angst, impatience and frustration elsewhere than my thread.
By the way I did read some of your posts but then I realized that you basicaly say everything that is essential to your post in the first line of the post/paragraph and the rest of the post/paragraph is basicaly saying the same thing as the first line, only in like 50 times the words.
This is my last post to you so don't expect a responce. Seriously you kids need to get it threw your head that no mater what YOU think, minds far greater than yours have already realized the truth that 2.0 is unbalanced and no mater how many bs reasons you can give (like saying "OMG COMMANDERS STILL PLAY LIKE 1.04") it is still unbalanced.
swing by our servers anytime Rat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> IPs in my sig <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
somewhat off-topic, a few points for you regular posters:
it's LOSE, not LOOSE. Loose is when you don't tie your shoes. Lose is when all three hives are down and everyone dies.
FYI for all involved: The first sentence of any paragraph is _supposed_ to give you an idea about _general_ contents of the writing below, and is thus generally called a _topic sentence_. Sorry if I think too grammatically formal and tend to organize my thoughts with a lead-in or preview to put people in the right mindset. I'll just fall back on my many years of l337 and nub-whining to
ROFFLEMYWAFFLEOMFGZWEEEEEEELIKEIWVUBBQ TEH INITIATIVE SI TEH IMPORTANTZORZ FOR SI TEH ONLEE WAY TO WEEN.
Or maybe I'll put a gun to my head and pull the trigger before I ever express myself in that fashion with any seriousness. I guess I'll figure it out.
The hilarity of this whole situation I will comment on only once. Notice in my original post that I said my most recent employment was as a waiter in Houston. I'll go ahead and link you to our website <a href='http://www.pappasseafood.com' target='_blank'>here</a>, tell you that it was Seafood House #4, on Highway 59N in Humble, Tx, and that to serve alcohol in this great state, you _have_ to be a minimum of 18 years old, and Pappas will not hire a server under 18. That set aside, my birthday being the 19th of July, 1983, that would make me just a few weeks over 20 years old, and in this thread have comported myself in a manner resembling my age, something that others have failed to do. Pardon the little rant, but if you care to post in a mature, well-thought out, well-intentioned, and time-consuming thread, do so with a little bit of tact and maturity.
I think initative is more desirable trait for the Kharaa. With hive sight and the number of abilities that are there to help teammates (not to mention knowing what weapons your buddies have just by pressing tab), ad hoc tactics are easier to come up with. For the marines, the most important thing is that the commander has a rough idea what he's doing.
I also agree that the game is not too imbalanced alltogether, maybe with a slight preference towards the aliens.
Aliens ARE superior in any early through mid lvl game, thus making it more propable for a superior position in the endgame
marine commanders who are able to act quickly, intuitive ànd decisive are a rarity, but a fully upgraded, well led <b>unit</b> of marines acting on a <b>plan</b> are a terrible sight to behold.. with firepower unequalled.. if they also have the skillz they really become a force to be reckoned with.
nerves have a lot to do with it, too..
it's not uncommon to see a fully equiped marine (or high lvl gestation) totally lose it when attacked unexpectedly, using surprise, mobility and sheer terror is a joy in its own right <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the funny thing bout the neverending balance-discussion is, that the team of ns never intendet balance in first place (i think so) but the difference of the teams, one seems to be weak, under a steady pressure of time, teching up and trying to cut the others resources while the other team is growing constantly and incoming soon much bigger then maybe possibly prepared for
k they both use res and maybe kharaa have better chances but thats not the point (at least no bad one)
the turnpoint in a game when suddenly huge babys roll allover your base bursting every piece of metal to shrapnels is something you can prevent or at least be prepared for
its true ive lost many games as marine on pubs but in most cases that ones in which rines (without further strategy) invested tons of res to build a defense bout which everyone had the bad feeling that it wouldnt hold the real storm, and so it happened
i like to play the underdogs (if they are at all) and with that little INITIATIVE-thing you dont have to loose
history told, its possible
FACE IT LADS, HEADS UP, ENGAGE !!! -thats meant (of course) for kharaa too
As for all the commanders and those who wish to become commanders,remember this little piece of advice:
Expect the unexpected
You will never know what your opponent is doing,unless you are doing some scouting, have guessed it right or your buddy on AIM is telling you all the intel you'll need on your opponent.Keeping the enemy fighting under your terms will help remove that payload off of your shoulders as well.Nothing hurts more than simply not being able to pull of a strategy that could've worked to end the game,but can't, thanks to the opponent taking the <b>intiative</b>ore you did in the first place.
It is really harder to win as marines in 2.0 (not beta builds,just plain 2.0) but when you win it feels like you've done your days worth of work.
Seriously if you really want to try tactics try playing some Final Fantasy Tactics,surely it isn't NS,but it DOES involve strategy,you can't pick off someone just whacking someone around with a blade,you will have to keep the opponent on your terms,or you would lose one way or another.
A very expansionist alien team is very easy prey for a shottie rush. Many consider these cheap, but if you don't press for victory in any way possible then you can't complain when you lose. If more marines punctured diffuse alien expansion with quick shottie-train victories, aliens would have to be more conservative in the early game.
Instead, many comms seem to have grown addicted to static defenses. What happened to the 1.04 contempt for sentry-happy comms? Any team which immediately strikes a defensive posture and concedes the majority of the map to the other team is doomed to failure.
Are there some balance issues tha that make it difficult for marines to seize the initiative? Of course, that's what 2.1 is supposed to fix. But the marine teams I've fought against and been on tend to bunker-up at the slightest provocation. And while a built-up marine base is very hard to take down, it can't win a game through anything but default.
Don't worry about the Maredtext troll/newbie. He doesn't know what he's talking about, he just likes to hear his own voice/read his own text <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->