Where can I purchase this “initiative”? But really, what exactly are you referring to? How do you fight a free moving enemy on your terms? Are you saying lure them to a certain area? I’m tired right now and stuff isn’t sinking in well I just wanted some clarification of what exactly you are suggesting. Sorry for being bone idle.
I only read the first page of posts as it seemed to ramble on in the same disscussions over and over by different people <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Imo, aliens do have a distinct advantage *talkin about 2.01b* in clan or pub play due to a few reasons. In pub play both teams have some teamwork with a variety of skill and due to this either side has a chance of winning although aliens do have a better chance since their side is geared toward that sort of play all the while marines arn't. Clan play, has lots of teamwork which should mean the marines have a better chance to win right? Wrong! Aliens now possesse team work too. Team work in a team that doesnt need it just makes it a very good extra bonus.
Dont get me wrong, I believe that each team does have a chance to win even in clan play. Its just much harder to keep up with tech/expansion against an alien team unless you totally dominate them in either fps skill or overall tactics that the other team has not thought up which is a very hard thing to do.
Btw: Good points on aggresive stances and keeping your opponent in a defensive mode. Its one of the few things that people have caught on to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Ohhh and dont forget your arms lab upgrades in a offensive stance. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where can I purchase this ?initiative?? But really, what exactly are you referring to? How do you fight a free moving enemy on your terms? Are you saying lure them to a certain area? I?m tired right now and stuff isn?t sinking in well I just wanted some clarification of what exactly you are suggesting. Sorry for being bone idle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attack one of their rsr nodes and make them respond by coming to you down long corridors/Attack their chambers/close chokes outside their main, put 3 turrets up in a hive and wait.
Some very good points. I think it should be noted that the only way a 'last minute win' can be successfully pulled off is if a team makes The Mistake. The Mistake could be not properly defending a lockdown point (double-res, hive). The Mistake could be not killing that single marine when you see him, because you want to wait for backup (maybe the comm is a health spammer, maybe the 'rine has a HMG). No matter what The Mistake is, it is always there. NS maps are static, and no miracles can be pulled off by somehow hacking the nanogrid and gaining access to a locked corridor, or using heavy weapons to blast a new opening in a vent. Even the 'sneaky surprise' spots on some maps (ie, the Red Room) are becoming well known, and the only way these can be utilized is if.. again.. one team makes The Mistake.
Over time, there will be less and less mistakes. Players will become more and more familiar with map intricacies that they will know just where to put that TF, or where to drop sensory for maximum hidden death.
Something.. somewhere, somehow.. will always bring NS down to a game of who can stomp who the hardest and the fastest, leading to the violent "PWN'D JOO" HA/Onos Train endgames that you spoke of.
Personally, I don't mind it. As long as it's fun...
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Aug 20 2003, 01:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Aug 20 2003, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are no more "barely won" scenarios where three heavies sneak out of base and kill one hive and weld each other staying alive long enough to weld the second hive and pull of a miracle victory like 1.04 had. There are no more lerks in vents taking down solitary turret farms to open a hive for the gorge to sneak up and pull out the miracle fades. It always ends with a last stand, with marines marching into or sieging a hive, or an onos tearing down the original base. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is false. (I'm a pub-only (Small games are no fun), aliens only (not because of any imbalances, but I just find the marine team too frustrating for me) player). Several times, (not quite as often as in 1.04 tho) has marines ended up full loadout (HA/Welder/(HMG/Shotgun/GL) and just been trouncing through hives when I (yes, I, because most of the time in these situations, it's been with noone else and no communications from me to the team until the base is destroyed.) decided to drop by marine home base for a change, gotten in, killed TF, then PG, then IP's and lastly Comm chair, and the comm never dropped an additional chair.
That said, if you're comm and you have the res to spare, set up a comm chair in one of your other bases with a single IP, most of the time it won't matter, but aliens can't win by taking down one base then.
And as for marines, save for a few of those "miracle victories", (this is of course just a casual observation) I think every time marines has managed to lock down four nodes for more than a few minutes, they've won.
it works just won a couple of games in a row as rine 8 ) nearly everygame as comm and maybe half of the games with other comms in fact every game where soldiers kept low, stayed together and followed commands of a motivated, and not fortifying comm, without claiming weapons, heading fast forward together, dying without mourning and working on the same goal !!! thats the way <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is one of those posts that renew's my hope in these forums. A well-developed and well-supported central theme, which is relevant to game play, and was typed with a minimum of spelling and grammatical errors. Thanks for the info and for the enjoyable forum experience, Rat.
On the other had, people like Maredtext depress me. Seeing someone who has clearly not paid attention in middle school (using threw not through) yelling about immaturity. Sad
Now, for me, I've watch many battles on 2.0, & i've seen aliens win many times, due to bad commanding or having n00bs going off in their own little world <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> the crap out of anything.
Its organization that is the key for a good Marine team, not meaning to brag, but when ever I comm, there is always a chance of the Marines wining cause I get them oragnized & tell them to get there butts to the way points or they don't get any goodies at all. & having <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> at every point can slow down the invasion of RT & vital spots (mainly hives) can help kick alien ****.
& if anyone has seen me play, they know I can pull it off...
only if you get busted <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Wow, didn't you promise to not re-enter this thread mared? You've already had a post edited by a mod/admin, so they apparently don't think you're contributing all that much to the sum total of knowledge in this thread.
I will say this for everyone.
Please stop derailing/polluting this thread. It achieves nothing. If you're going to post off-topic garbage or ad hominim attacks, do so in the off topic areas please. If you do feel the urge to ruin this thread as so many others have been, I'll find the urge to drag an admin/mod into it, and I'll probably do so in the manner which will have them irritated the most to crack down on the BS that ruins any discussion or argumentation. That being said...
Thanks to those with constructive comments, both positive and negative. That's what this place is all about.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maredtext+Aug 20 2003, 01:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maredtext @ Aug 20 2003, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry mate, your a little late. Its already been decided that 2.0 is unbalanced tward the aliens, nice try but no cigar.
Btw, do you think clans have better initiative taking than the average newb pubber? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, your a jerk.
Anyways to the topic poster, that was great, seriously. While I may not agree that its EVERYTHING, your post was VERY well written, bravo.
So I spent about two years as defensive coordinator for a top-ranked TF clan way back in '97. When you're dealing with very serious, competitive players, neither side ever loses the initiative or gets complacent or whatever. Both sides have a very well understood plan, and are highly motivated to implement it aggressively.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't really understand how important and effective those two simple things were until our newest kitchen manager gave me a little pearl of wisdom on a one of our busiest nights while helping run the kitchen. I said "Man, there aren't any orders in, that means when the next wave of people come in, we're gonna get slammed." He promptly replied, "We'll only be slammed if we're not prepared. So what can we do now to help later?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back when I was doing my DC thing, I read a fair amount about strategy and game theory. While reading about chess, I ran across the notion of the "positional game." The idea being that there were certain areas of the board that were inherently advantageous to control. And there were certain arrangements of pieces that were generally effective under nearly any circumstances.
So let's say you're playing a game, and your opponent breaks out some sort of super-secret mega-effective uber-strategy that has never seen the light of day before this game. So there's no known defense. Rather than trying to out-think your opponent and reverse-engineer his super-tactic, you simply manipulate the board to strengthen your position.
From my interpretation, that's what the kitchen manager was suggesting. "What tasks can we perform that will be generally effective, no matter what combination of orders come in?"
In Team Fortress, I drilled our players with this notion. The end result was that there was no wasted or pointless action (as per Musashi's ninth precept). When something happened, everyone knew precisely what to do. When nothing happened, everyone knew precisely what to do.
Great post Deacon. Really a joy to read. The positional game stratagem seems quite underdeveloped for the most part in NS (barring a double-res rush in the beginning). In 1.04, it was double-siege locations like processing on ns_hera and such, but there are so many places that are unused that become pivotal. Take for example the upper processing node on ns_hera. If the kharaa take it, with a couple dchambers, the rt, a sensory and some well positioned ochambers placed throughout the entire area on the catwalks,etc. that place becomes a fortress that would take more than one siege point to truly clear outside of an HA train hellbent on its destruction. And that covers the backdoors to both data core delta and ventilation hives. If the marines take this area, with two tf's properly positioned, they not only have the ability to cover general cargo storage and upper processing, but also have a point from which to siege into holoroom and data core delta. However, this location is almost never used at all other than to cap a node or to attempt to siege dcd up against the wall. If turrets were properly placed by marines, skulks and lerks would find it near impossible to get all the way through.
Comments
Dont get me wrong, I believe that each team does have a chance to win even in clan play. Its just much harder to keep up with tech/expansion against an alien team unless you totally dominate them in either fps skill or overall tactics that the other team has not thought up which is a very hard thing to do.
Btw: Good points on aggresive stances and keeping your opponent in a defensive mode. Its one of the few things that people have caught on to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Ohhh and dont forget your arms lab upgrades in a offensive stance. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where can I purchase this ?initiative?? But really, what exactly are you referring to? How do you fight a free moving enemy on your terms? Are you saying lure them to a certain area? I?m tired right now and stuff isn?t sinking in well I just wanted some clarification of what exactly you are suggesting. Sorry for being bone idle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attack one of their rsr nodes and make them respond by coming to you down long corridors/Attack their chambers/close chokes outside their main, put 3 turrets up in a hive and wait.
Over time, there will be less and less mistakes. Players will become more and more familiar with map intricacies that they will know just where to put that TF, or where to drop sensory for maximum hidden death.
Something.. somewhere, somehow.. will always bring NS down to a game of who can stomp who the hardest and the fastest, leading to the violent "PWN'D JOO" HA/Onos Train endgames that you spoke of.
Personally, I don't mind it. As long as it's fun...
2. Its not as big a thing as people think
3. The marines can win if they take the iniative (sp).
This is false. (I'm a pub-only (Small games are no fun), aliens only (not because of any imbalances, but I just find the marine team too frustrating for me) player). Several times, (not quite as often as in 1.04 tho) has marines ended up full loadout (HA/Welder/(HMG/Shotgun/GL) and just been trouncing through hives when I (yes, I, because most of the time in these situations, it's been with noone else and no communications from me to the team until the base is destroyed.) decided to drop by marine home base for a change, gotten in, killed TF, then PG, then IP's and lastly Comm chair, and the comm never dropped an additional chair.
That said, if you're comm and you have the res to spare, set up a comm chair in one of your other bases with a single IP, most of the time it won't matter, but aliens can't win by taking down one base then.
And as for marines, save for a few of those "miracle victories", (this is of course just a casual observation) I think every time marines has managed to lock down four nodes for more than a few minutes, they've won.
just won a couple of games in a row as rine 8 )
nearly everygame as comm and maybe half of the games with other comms
in fact every game where soldiers kept low, stayed together and followed commands of a motivated, and not fortifying comm, without claiming weapons, heading fast forward together, dying without mourning and working on the same goal !!!
thats the way <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the other had, people like Maredtext depress me. Seeing someone who has clearly not paid attention in middle school (using threw not through) yelling about immaturity. Sad
sorry for my spelling and grammatical errors
this is not my native language 8)
<span style='color:white'>No flaming.</span>
dont do that!!!!!1111
its very bad, m'kaaay?
Its organization that is the key for a good Marine team, not meaning to brag, but when ever I comm, there is always a chance of the Marines wining cause I get them oragnized & tell them to get there butts to the way points or they don't get any goodies at all. & having <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> at every point can slow down the invasion of RT & vital spots (mainly hives) can help kick alien ****.
& if anyone has seen me play, they know I can pull it off...
I will say this for everyone.
Please stop derailing/polluting this thread. It achieves nothing. If you're going to post off-topic garbage or ad hominim attacks, do so in the off topic areas please. If you do feel the urge to ruin this thread as so many others have been, I'll find the urge to drag an admin/mod into it, and I'll probably do so in the manner which will have them irritated the most to crack down on the BS that ruins any discussion or argumentation. That being said...
Thanks to those with constructive comments, both positive and negative. That's what this place is all about.
Btw, do you think clans have better initiative taking than the average newb pubber? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, your a jerk.
Anyways to the topic poster, that was great, seriously. While I may not agree that its EVERYTHING, your post was VERY well written, bravo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't really understand how important and effective those two simple things were until our newest kitchen manager gave me a little pearl of wisdom on a one of our busiest nights while helping run the kitchen. I said "Man, there aren't any orders in, that means when the next wave of people come in, we're gonna get slammed." He promptly replied, "We'll only be slammed if we're not prepared. So what can we do now to help later?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back when I was doing my DC thing, I read a fair amount about strategy and game theory. While reading about chess, I ran across the notion of the "positional game." The idea being that there were certain areas of the board that were inherently advantageous to control. And there were certain arrangements of pieces that were generally effective under nearly any circumstances.
So let's say you're playing a game, and your opponent breaks out some sort of super-secret mega-effective uber-strategy that has never seen the light of day before this game. So there's no known defense. Rather than trying to out-think your opponent and reverse-engineer his super-tactic, you simply manipulate the board to strengthen your position.
From my interpretation, that's what the kitchen manager was suggesting. "What tasks can we perform that will be generally effective, no matter what combination of orders come in?"
In Team Fortress, I drilled our players with this notion. The end result was that there was no wasted or pointless action (as per Musashi's ninth precept). When something happened, everyone knew precisely what to do. When nothing happened, everyone knew precisely what to do.