Awesome flay... can't wait to see who gets chosen. Noobs are so fun to toy with <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Wait a sec, that's good and bad. Good because more PTs find more bugs faster. Bad because if new PTs are being selected, the release probably isn't as close as I hoped.
Not true ferret, i they are choosing playtesters to see if the manual/training level works, it means they probably ironed out all major bugs and really cant find that many anymore.
This is all an assumption BTW so dont take my word for it.
It's a pity I am so intelligent and skillful, now I won't be chosen as the newbie PT <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Just curious, what would you say is the typical size of your playtests?
I'm glad you are planning to have good in-game help and tutorial(s). It should help you get a nice, juicy userbase. :) Especially since so many people seem to be allergic to game manuals. Must be the ink.
I'm the type that usually reads the manual <i>first</i>. Especially for a team-based multiplayer game!
<!--QuoteBegin--Cortechs+July 31 2002,09:53--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Cortechs @ July 31 2002,09:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just curious, what would you say is the typical size of your playtests?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Generally we can only scrounge up enough playtesters for 8-10 person games most of the time. But there are occaisional 16-20+ player games, and these are where the game gets the most fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->We will proably also be getting a bunch of fresh playtesters in the near future, to do just this. We also need more PTs to test bigger games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
u do realise this is ganna cause a storm once the picking starts.. ppl yelling "wuts he got i dont got, i should test im much more friendly and less annoying"
just outa curiousity, how would u? the goal is to test its effect on new players, thus thos who've been around a while who can "understand" the game without playing, would be eliminated off the list? would that cuase them all to register new names and pretend they're confuse? asking the same questiosn over and over? or would it go on how it once said <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ONLY way to become a beta tester is to make mature and insightful posts on the forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> kinda contradicting.. but i suppose newbs could be insightful.. although most who are have read the faqs like they're suppose to
then again.. if its only a week or so the release, i don think it would matter much, seeing how i've expected it everyday for the past month.. whats another week?
tommydCreator of ns_tanith, co_pulse and co_faceoffJoin Date: 2002-01-24Member: 40Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer
i agree with the 'new PT' idea...
one, because not that many people are actually showing up to PT. remove the PT's who *never* show up and add some new faces (hardcore gamers who have a lot of free time AND who are somewhat trustworthy, preferably) a lot of the PTs are developers who are actually helping make NS, and thus dont have time to just play. we definitely need to setup some 32 player games to see how the server/gameplay will be like. i think once NS becomes popular, there will definitely be full 32 player servers out there.
two, it will be good to see how newbies react and learn how to play in the latest build.
of course, the only problem with adding even more people is the unfortunate possibility of leaks and other lamerism.
If the server code can be separated from the client code, then they would only have the official servers to play on. Anyone not authorized to be on the official servers could be kickied and banned by WONID.
That is, unless this WONID stuff has me completely confused.
I think it will work out well. One option would be to distribute the client with no maps. Make them actually connect to the server to download the maps automatically. I know this would take longer, but I think you would be able to keep a log, with IP addresses of who joins the server to get the map. Unfortunately, such a list would be useless, because some of you are still on dialup. Not only would it take forever to download, the IP it logs for you would be meaningless... and what will stop people from distributing their stuff after they get the map?
Nevermind that map thing... that wouldn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
You could always get the new PT's to sign a contract. Like, a legal document. That is, if you want to get that crazy about stuff. They would have to find a fax machine somewhere... bah.
I think that the new PT's will only come on board maybe a week before release. Time enough for a first impression of the manual, and tutorial, and that's it.
Ferret, I would assume that the team would only choose mature and responsible people, and would not just pick someone up from some random corner of the internet. Even though they want these playtesters for a different reason, I would still think they want the same qualities and will be using the same selection process as before. The playtesters learning from the manual would not only have to learn how to play, they would have to explain things well when they couldn't figure out something. They would most likely need to offer suggestions on how Flayra and the team could improve the support for new players.
I know they have to go through the same selection process. I'm just saying that there are a lot of new faces out there, and that not all of them are trustworthy. There may be 4 "trusted", 12 "might be trustworthy", and 980 "dirty scumbags". So, what if he needs 5 playtesters?
All I'm saying is that the more playtesters that there are, the more of a chance there is that the game will get leaked.
Yes you have a good point Ferret. I really don't think there would be much of a problem though, I can think of quite a few off the top of my head that are trustworthy, etc. and would make good Playtesters.
The thing is, even though the risk goes up with every playtester they add, they will need more to test 32 player games. They currently have 47 playtesters (going by the forums members list) and I know that even with that many it would be hard to gather 32 who would all be available at the same time. Conflicting time zones, work schedules, etc. make it impossible. Lets just trust in Flayra's judgement in picking responsible people, and hope we don't ever have a leak on our hands.
Well, so far the honor system has worked wonderfully. Also, if the client -were- to ever get out, they'd have to connect to one of the servers that Flayra monitors.
Everyone on the playtest system is quite good about keeping the files out of the public mainstream.
Not to mention I wouldn't put it past Flay or any other programmer running a smale scale BETA to imbed a comment tag indicating which PT the copy went to. So we'd know fast if, "That new guy that signed on last week," was opening up a certain folder for download.
Sgt X, I am pretty sure that the playtesters all download from a central, secure FTP. I do not think they are all given their playtest copy individually, as that would be time consuming on Flayra's part. As always, the best way to prevent leakage would be to prevent people who aren't 100% trustworthy from being playtesters.
<!--QuoteBegin--tommyd+July 31 2002,14:24--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (tommyd @ July 31 2002,14:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think once NS becomes popular, there will definitely be full 32 player servers out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Omg, that would rock. Just iminage a 32 player ns game! mmmmm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> of course,the only problem with adding even more people is the unfortunate possibility of leaks and other lamerism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm, yes. When I got done reading horror's post that was the first thing that popped into my mind. As of now, all the PT's are friends, and trusted gamers of the community. They releaize that releasing too much info could hurt the community. A new person, new to gaming or the community might not realize this (or just not care) and they could do what you said. I hope Flayra can make them sign an NDA or something. (Hey, he already showed that he doesnt mess around by getting 'Natural Selection' copy writed.)
Well, i really think that more playtesters may help, i mean, think about it, more playtesters mean that theres more possible people who could spot a bug in the mod, which also means less time before the release because the bugs are found faster and can be eliminated before waiting another week of recompiling and modifying the code. I wouldnt care if it is delayed by a week or so because of this, at least this way is better than with most mods that set a release date and then rush into it to try and make it. This very thing happened with dod 3.0 and let me say, i would have been better off not knowing when it was released rather than wait 3 whole days because the PTs dint find a rather important bug in the build.
The thing is it is difficult to see how trustworthy people are on the internet because you only here thier words and rarley thier actions, and its the actions that determine character.
True, but then again, i have found some good friends on the net, even though i dont really know them in RL. Character determines what you say most of the time, so if someone looks mature, he probably is. (Then again, ive seen people who type flawlessly and backstab people like crazy killers in bad horror movies)
I theire going to select a playtester, they should select people who try to help the mod, not necesarily people with the highest post count or who they have personal friendships with etc, because in the end, those people who helped you and got nothing in return, those who just did it for the sake of helping are the people you should trust.
Then again, its their choice not ours <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
That's exactly what I was thinking, Rico. Especially because, at this stage, most of the bugs will be minor ones and so hard to spot. A larger amount of PTs would increase the chance of these bugs being spotted, and so making the release closer.
I to have friends on the internet, but that does not make them trustworthy, it just makes them my friend. And sometimes the least trustworthy people are the most eloquent speakers.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Longtooth+July 31 2002,17:35--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Longtooth @ July 31 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And sometimes the least trustworthy people are the most eloquent speakers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a very good point.
Comments
<!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
Wait a sec, that's good and bad. Good because more PTs find more bugs faster. Bad because if new PTs are being selected, the release probably isn't as close as I hoped.
This is all an assumption BTW so dont take my word for it.
I'm glad you are planning to have good in-game help and tutorial(s). It should help you get a nice, juicy userbase. :) Especially since so many people seem to be allergic to game manuals. Must be the ink.
I'm the type that usually reads the manual <i>first</i>. Especially for a team-based multiplayer game!
-PD
Generally we can only scrounge up enough playtesters for 8-10 person games most of the time. But there are occaisional 16-20+ player games, and these are where the game gets the most fun.
u do realise this is ganna cause a storm once the picking starts.. ppl yelling "wuts he got i dont got, i should test im much more friendly and less annoying"
just outa curiousity, how would u? the goal is to test its effect on new players, thus thos who've been around a while who can "understand" the game without playing, would be eliminated off the list? would that cuase them all to register new names and pretend they're confuse? asking the same questiosn over and over? or would it go on how it once said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ONLY way to become a beta tester is to make mature and insightful posts on the forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kinda contradicting.. but i suppose newbs could be insightful.. although most who are have read the faqs like they're suppose to
then again.. if its only a week or so the release, i don think it would matter much, seeing how i've expected it everyday for the past month.. whats another week?
one, because not that many people are actually showing up to PT. remove the PT's who *never* show up and add some new faces (hardcore gamers who have a lot of free time AND who are somewhat trustworthy, preferably) a lot of the PTs are developers who are actually helping make NS, and thus dont have time to just play. we definitely need to setup some 32 player games to see how the server/gameplay will be like. i think once NS becomes popular, there will definitely be full 32 player servers out there.
two, it will be good to see how newbies react and learn how to play in the latest build.
of course, the only problem with adding even more people is the unfortunate possibility of leaks and other lamerism.
That is, unless this WONID stuff has me completely confused.
I think it will work out well. One option would be to distribute the client with no maps. Make them actually connect to the server to download the maps automatically. I know this would take longer, but I think you would be able to keep a log, with IP addresses of who joins the server to get the map. Unfortunately, such a list would be useless, because some of you are still on dialup. Not only would it take forever to download, the IP it logs for you would be meaningless... and what will stop people from distributing their stuff after they get the map?
Nevermind that map thing... that wouldn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
You could always get the new PT's to sign a contract. Like, a legal document. That is, if you want to get that crazy about stuff. They would have to find a fax machine somewhere... bah.
I think that the new PT's will only come on board maybe a week before release. Time enough for a first impression of the manual, and tutorial, and that's it.
They could always use the honor system... but depending on how many people they bring in, that may not work.
And the harder you work to secure something, the harder people are going to work to get around it.
Are there many PT's on dialup?
The playtesters learning from the manual would not only have to learn how to play, they would have to explain things well when they couldn't figure out something. They would most likely need to offer suggestions on how Flayra and the team could improve the support for new players.
All I'm saying is that the more playtesters that there are, the more of a chance there is that the game will get leaked.
The thing is, even though the risk goes up with every playtester they add, they will need more to test 32 player games. They currently have 47 playtesters (going by the forums members list) and I know that even with that many it would be hard to gather 32 who would all be available at the same time. Conflicting time zones, work schedules, etc. make it impossible. Lets just trust in Flayra's judgement in picking responsible people, and hope we don't ever have a leak on our hands.
Everyone on the playtest system is quite good about keeping the files out of the public mainstream.
As always, the best way to prevent leakage would be to prevent people who aren't 100% trustworthy from being playtesters.
if broken flay can sew
Omg, that would rock. Just iminage a 32 player ns game! mmmmm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
of course,the only problem with adding even more people is the unfortunate possibility of leaks and other lamerism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm, yes. When I got done reading horror's post that was the first thing that popped into my mind. As of now, all the PT's are friends, and trusted gamers of the community. They releaize that releasing too much info could hurt the community. A new person, new to gaming or the community might not realize this (or just not care) and they could do what you said. I hope Flayra can make them sign an NDA or something. (Hey, he already showed that he doesnt mess around by getting 'Natural Selection' copy writed.)
I theire going to select a playtester, they should select people who try to help the mod, not necesarily people with the highest post count or who they have personal friendships with etc, because in the end, those people who helped you and got nothing in return, those who just did it for the sake of helping are the people you should trust.
Then again, its their choice not ours <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Longtooth: Me points to "edit" button above post.
That's a very good point.