<!--QuoteBegin--BoZmAn20+July 31 2002,07:54--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (BoZmAn20 @ July 31 2002,07:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sgt X, I am pretty sure that the playtesters all download from a central, secure FTP. I do not think they are all given their playtest copy individually, as that would be time consuming on Flayra's part. As always, the best way to prevent leakage would be to prevent people who aren't 100% trustworthy from being playtesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well yea I guess. But you could put the ID comment in any file so if Flay was really obsessed with security he could make it so one individual file is variable and takes it's input from the login of who ever's downloading. Or not. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
To sort of quote what I have said earlier... blah,blah,blah, <b>leave (the choice of playtesters) for the devs to decide.</b> And, blah,blah, blah. <b>I leave everything else in (the devs) hands.</b> I advise leaving it up to them, they've made all this progress so far, they must be doing something right. Just my take on things.
I am suprised anyone else knew what eloquent means <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
If we know what eloquent means, then there's a good chance we ARE eloquent, right? And therefore untrustworthy... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
I like the idea, but I wonder if it can actually perform in a non-ideal world. As has been discussed throughout the thread. You're looking for a person who would normally have difficulty learning the mod without the aid of a manual and tutorial. This person being so inexperienced, it might be difficult for him/her to put into words what is wrong and how to change it. Thoughts?
However difficult it would be to arange, the ideal type of people to test the manual and tutorial would be as follows. Imagine a graph of people's skill/experience at games. It would most likely appear as a bell-curve. Ideally, new playtesters would be selected as such. Possibly, a single experienced player, a single inexperienced person, and a few players of an average skill level, in such a way as to replicate a bell curve. Devs would get feedback about how often players feel they are teaching above or below their level. Ultimately achieving a tutorial for the broadest audience. Hey, but what do I know.
Oh, by the way, I sorta was contemplating this idea originally, but I figured it may have been too much to bring up at once.
<!--QuoteBegin--horror_kid+July 31 2002,23:52--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (horror_kid @ July 31 2002,23:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Hey, but what do I know?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Enough
another way to say that Horror, might be to say, On a random gaussian variable showing the skill of certain players, choose based on a uniform random variable from a list made from those 1 std deviation or less away from the curve's peak.
fun
This would alleviate the problem I mentioned, I agree.
If you guys did do this I would recommend not having many old playtesters playing, maybe just one or two to observer and listen to responses and let the new guys figure it out on their own. That way all the possiblilities are open for finding bugs and they wouldn't learn their playstyle from someone else. Just my two cents.
actually the knowledge I divulged was learned primarily from a university probability and stochastic processes course in the Engineering school. Though yes I learned some of it in high school, how much I can't remember, I didn't like that teacher, and neither did my parents.
Don't get too paranoid about leaking. All commercial games and even the major mods are leaked before release, and it doesn't hurt their popularity one bit. It's just the way the information age works.
Undulate means to ripple, or move out in waves, sorta. You could describe a rolling sea as undulating.
Heh, I could make my little brother test. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> He doesn't play FPS games, so I don't think that he's the target audience really. He would love the commander mode though.
@CD : The game has not been leaked yet. So, it's not necessarily a fact of life.
<!--QuoteBegin--alius42+Aug. 01 2002,06:42--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (alius42 @ Aug. 01 2002,06:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would recommend not having many old playtesters playing, maybe just one or two to observer and listen to responses and let the new guys figure it out on their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i dont think this is so important. Its not a problem everyone is a newbie in the beginning.
In cs, when you start the game, at first you dont know how to buy etc, but you get the hang of it in a few minutes. The problem is NS is complicated, and it takes a long(er) time to get the hang of the game, understand everything etc, especially with commander mode... So, the best thing is to have new people every now and then coming into the PT, trying to learn the game WITH THE HELP from other PTs, just like a newbie would when he would first play the game. You can always ask other players how the game works.
Now, now and then a new PT is added to the team, so i think its fine the way it is. Of course its good to sometimes have a whole group of newbies, but for that i believe Flayra has his own personal LAN playtests with newbie friends, i think its too much effort to get a whole new group in the PT, then arrange there are no veterans, and then PT-ing...
Not that I have enough experience with NS to make an accurate observation, but I would be more concerned about how the game plays with a full server, than how long it takes a server of newbies to learn the game. Both are important, however.
In Gloom, for example, the gameplay between 12 and 30 player games is quite different. The marine team seems much stronger in the 30-player game at the start, while in a 12-player game the aliens are able to hide and ambush easier (cause of the slower gameplay). The marines have a ranged advantage over the aliens, and in large games it seems to be a bit overpowering during the early game (though the aliens are fine once they get to the higher classes), particularly when the marines stick together.
DruBoBack In BeigeJoin Date: 2002-02-06Member: 172Members, NS1 Playtester
to Undulate means to move in a wavy fashion. Usually applies to animals, or belly dancers.
And regarding the playtest, I think an appropriate group of people to bring on board would be a cross between the newest of the n00bs and some of the forum old-timers who never got picked for the earlier playtests. For instance, the other members of EC, like pielemuis, eBnar, BoZmAn20 and Mart as the old-timers, and possibly Cortechs, TheGunSlingerOmega, and Llama Terminator as the n00bs.
See, I think the problem with getting complete n00bs is that nobody knows them... no offense to any n00bs here.
If he wants complete n00bs, then he can get his LAN buddies to try it. That's just my opinion anyways. Whatever happens, we will all be playing the game soon. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
heh Viper, dont forget that when a newbie asks something in a mod, theres always a jerk who says "RTFM!" or "To buy weapons press F4, and to buy ammo press ALT-CTRL-DEL 2 times"
So, i think only a few newbies would actually get the benefit of asking and a lot would be left to "RTFM" so its pretty important to test it <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
BTW: I hope the NS community doesnt turn out to be as i described most people. But you never know...
We're sorta hoping the community will be a bit more mature. Just a crazy dream. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
I'm sure that this has already been considered. In general, however, the average person at a typical lan party is still an experienced gamer. Testing at a LAN party will test a certain type of audience, but it may not test the inexperienced gamer. There are quite a few of us with friends and relatives, who we trust and who are not into games. Perhaps looking into possibilities like this would be the best direction to start. For instance, the devs trust member X and his neighbor/friend/relative is a totally inexperienced FPS or RTS player. His neighbor/friend/relative only has access to the files while at trusted member X's house. Much less of a chance of leaks then. Just a thought. F3rret reminded me of this idea, so give him some credit if you agree, otherwise blame me if you don't.
I approve of the bell curve idea, but you need to find a newb to FPS games who's going to be trustworthy. May I suggest using a playtester from an entirely different genre that has proved to be trustworthy? RTS springs to mind, someone who did a beta of Starcraft or WC3 may be ideal.
The idea is to find someone who can work a computer and not leak the game, but who hasn't got a clue how to work an FPS yet. Then you get your inexperienced FPS player who won't leak - immediate family of a playtester comes to mind here, because they can just use the tester's comp and copy of NS.
For that matter, why not just have all the PTs give their family a turn on NS and see how the tutorial goes? That's probably the easiest and safest way to figure out how hard it is to learn and what they'll know how to do.
I honestly don't think you should take any regulars or devoted fans as new PTs. Sorry everyone, but you all know what's in the game and how most of it works, all you need is a key config and a brief read of the manual and you'll be ready to go. As will I.
I think maybe some of you have been a mislead into believing that the tutorial level or NS in general should friendly to people new to FPS's. I'm not sure that that's the case. I'd always thought that the tutorial level would help people get acquainted with NS itself, that it would be used to teach the game mechanics of NS, not of FPSs. If people need to learn to play an FPS, they can run the HL Hazard Course.
Any RTS fanatics that play NS will most likely be primarily interested in commander mode, and people skilled at Starcraft/Worldcraft will find themselves right at home in that environment. Some might become inclined to play as a marine or an alien, but I suspect that these people will mostly already be at least versed in how an FPS works. A lot of the RTS guys will just jump from server to server until they can hop right in and command.
In a sense, there's a point where you just have to draw a line. We want to make sure that the large portion of the HL community can understand how to play NS, and the large portion of the HL community only knows how to DM and lame (ok, maybe not, but humor me). There's the on screen popups, which people will have on by default, and which will help a lot. There's the in progress manual, wich should turn out to be as comprehensive as necessary. And there's the tutorial level, because there's a difference between reading the rules and using them. There are many other places where people can learn to strafe, aim, and click.
Though, for the record, I do totally agree with adding in new pt's just to see how newbie friendly NS.
Originally I stated that an average to below-average playtester should be selected. Since then, the idea of a bell-curve was mentioned, that idea would give you an indication of how the community as a whole will respond, not only inexperienced people, as much of the focus has been on. The general targeted audience is what should be focused on, my suggestion was simply that playtesters are likely to take certain things for granted, due to playing on a semi-regular basis, and the addition of external opinions could only help things.
somewhat off topic, but I'm wondering if the tutorial will stress that as a marine you should stay with your team somehow.
ex. Have holographic marines you are to stay with and fight a few aliens along the way, if you stray from them, you are trapped in an unwinnable situation.
When the time comes to get new playtesters for pre-release, I don't think they should come from this forum. I hate saying that, because it means that I wouldn't have a chance, but I think it would be an important part of what they'd be trying to accomplish.
I mean, the people here may not have played, but we're all fairly rabid NS freaks, and most of us know at least the basic setup of the game. We've taken the time to read the faqs, ask some questions, and basically just figure #### out. That makes us horrible candidates if they're going to test their tutorials and manuals, because we already HAVE most of the knowledge they should be introducing. We could could focus on the specific mechanics without having to figure out everything from scratch.
So, uh, yeah. I urge the NS developers to punish their fans for their loyalty. =]
Comments
As always, the best way to prevent leakage would be to prevent people who aren't 100% trustworthy from being playtesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yea I guess. But you could put the ID comment in any file so if Flay was really obsessed with security he could make it so one individual file is variable and takes it's input from the login of who ever's downloading. Or not.
<!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Now,
[THREAD HIJACK!]
Can anyone tell me what Undulate means? Without looking it up?
[/THREAD HIJACK]
But seriously, trust the devs.
Oh, by the way, I sorta was contemplating this idea originally, but I figured it may have been too much to bring up at once.
Enough
fun
This would alleviate the problem I mentioned, I agree.
Heh, I could make my little brother test. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> He doesn't play FPS games, so I don't think that he's the target audience really. He would love the commander mode though.
@CD : The game has not been leaked yet. So, it's not necessarily a fact of life.
i dont think this is so important. Its not a problem everyone is a newbie in the beginning.
In cs, when you start the game, at first you dont know how to buy etc, but you get the hang of it in a few minutes. The problem is NS is complicated, and it takes a long(er) time to get the hang of the game, understand everything etc, especially with commander mode... So, the best thing is to have new people every now and then coming into the PT, trying to learn the game WITH THE HELP from other PTs, just like a newbie would when he would first play the game. You can always ask other players how the game works.
Now, now and then a new PT is added to the team, so i think its fine the way it is. Of course its good to sometimes have a whole group of newbies, but for that i believe Flayra has his own personal LAN playtests with newbie friends, i think its too much effort to get a whole new group in the PT, then arrange there are no veterans, and then PT-ing...
<!--EDIT|[Shuvit.Viper]|Aug. 01 2002,14:20-->
In Gloom, for example, the gameplay between 12 and 30 player games is quite different. The marine team seems much stronger in the 30-player game at the start, while in a 12-player game the aliens are able to hide and ambush easier (cause of the slower gameplay). The marines have a ranged advantage over the aliens, and in large games it seems to be a bit overpowering during the early game (though the aliens are fine once they get to the higher classes), particularly when the marines stick together.
You never know what players will come up with.
And regarding the playtest, I think an appropriate group of people to bring on board would be a cross between the newest of the n00bs and some of the forum old-timers who never got picked for the earlier playtests. For instance, the other members of EC, like pielemuis, eBnar, BoZmAn20 and Mart as the old-timers, and possibly Cortechs, TheGunSlingerOmega, and Llama Terminator as the n00bs.
If he wants complete n00bs, then he can get his LAN buddies to try it. That's just my opinion anyways. Whatever happens, we will all be playing the game soon. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
edit - I mean as new!!!! not annoying! lol
So, i think only a few newbies would actually get the benefit of asking and a lot would be left to "RTFM" so its pretty important to test it <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
BTW: I hope the NS community doesnt turn out to be as i described most people. But you never know...
The idea is to find someone who can work a computer and not leak the game, but who hasn't got a clue how to work an FPS yet. Then you get your inexperienced FPS player who won't leak - immediate family of a playtester comes to mind here, because they can just use the tester's comp and copy of NS.
For that matter, why not just have all the PTs give their family a turn on NS and see how the tutorial goes? That's probably the easiest and safest way to figure out how hard it is to learn and what they'll know how to do.
I honestly don't think you should take any regulars or devoted fans as new PTs. Sorry everyone, but you all know what's in the game and how most of it works, all you need is a key config and a brief read of the manual and you'll be ready to go. As will I.
hehe.
Good idea though. Unless your family sucks, the game won't be leaked.
Any RTS fanatics that play NS will most likely be primarily interested in commander mode, and people skilled at Starcraft/Worldcraft will find themselves right at home in that environment. Some might become inclined to play as a marine or an alien, but I suspect that these people will mostly already be at least versed in how an FPS works. A lot of the RTS guys will just jump from server to server until they can hop right in and command.
In a sense, there's a point where you just have to draw a line. We want to make sure that the large portion of the HL community can understand how to play NS, and the large portion of the HL community only knows how to DM and lame (ok, maybe not, but humor me). There's the on screen popups, which people will have on by default, and which will help a lot. There's the in progress manual, wich should turn out to be as comprehensive as necessary. And there's the tutorial level, because there's a difference between reading the rules and using them. There are many other places where people can learn to strafe, aim, and click.
Though, for the record, I do totally agree with adding in new pt's just to see how newbie friendly NS.
ex. Have holographic marines you are to stay with and fight a few aliens along the way, if you stray from them, you are trapped in an unwinnable situation.
I mean, the people here may not have played, but we're all fairly rabid NS freaks, and most of us know at least the basic setup of the game. We've taken the time to read the faqs, ask some questions, and basically just figure #### out. That makes us horrible candidates if they're going to test their tutorials and manuals, because we already HAVE most of the knowledge they should be introducing. We could could focus on the specific mechanics without having to figure out everything from scratch.
So, uh, yeah. I urge the NS developers to punish their fans for their loyalty. =]
-dio