Siege, Anyone?

Hitman047 · August 2003

Obviously so!! For some players I know, that is. I'm an admin on the QuickFrag.com server and, honest to God, there is never ONE game where a hive is not sieged. In fact, most games when marines win, not a single bullet ever TOUCHES the hives. They all get in their lvl 3 HA/HMG suits (which is good for attacking, it baffles my why they don't just take like 7 of those and kill the hive like that) and camp outside the hive, making an obs, tf, 5 sieges, and like 90 turrets. They electrify everything, and camp it until the hive dies. They go onto the next hive and the process repeats itself. Meanwhile comm is wasting 500+ res on these state-of-the-art lvl 3 weapons/armor HA/HMG/GL/JP/SG which would easily, without a doubt, kill a hive. But no, sieges it is!! And sometimes aliens have a smaller or less enthusiastic team, which means 1 or 2 out of 6 or 7 aliens actually tries to take down the TF and so on. They go onos, regen, adrenaline, and whatever else, but get torn apart like confetti in a matter of seconds by all the HA/HMGers. If you can do that to an onos, why can't you do that to a hive!?

My point is that sieges are WAY too easy to just spam all over the place and kill anything. Just my 2 cents, but maybe sieges should be upped in price, like... a lot.

"OMG ITS A SKULK!!"
"I know... LETS SIEGE IT H4W H4W H4W!!!!111"

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

n4s7y · August 2003

I've seen comms make the mistake of sending in their "invincible" crowd of HA into the hive, thinking that it'll be dead in no time. Instead, he found his entire team of HA dead due to the sheer confusion of having to fire at static defenses, welding each other, and firing at moving targets.

It's JUST not that easy. Playing it safe with sieges is a lot better then risking that 1000res investment.

Ahnteis · August 2003

HMG currently does 1/2 damage to buildings.

ViolenceJack · August 2003

I know what u mean, if they want too do it the expensive slow way they can. i always say we might as well just run in and attack. siege is mainly a base/outpost defense, keeps away chambers from near the base/outpost.

it is silly though for a comm to put every one in HA and what ever weapon. then u all go over to a hive then he tells every one to stop and build the TF he drops.

Why should marines have trouble with static defenses with GLs. u dont get trouble. GL is underused imo the main use seems to be to spam them out ur base. u neva see them touch buildings

a_civilian · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Obviously so!! For some players I know, that is. I'm an admin on the QuickFrag.com server and, honest to God, there is never ONE game where a hive is not sieged. In fact, most games when marines win, not a single bullet ever TOUCHES the hives. They all get in their lvl 3 HA/HMG suits (which is good for attacking, it baffles my why they don't just take like 7 of those and kill the hive like that) and camp outside the hive, making an obs, tf, 5 sieges, and like 90 turrets. They electrify everything, and camp it until the hive dies. They go onto the next hive and the process repeats itself. Meanwhile comm is wasting 500+ res on these state-of-the-art lvl 3 weapons/armor HA/HMG/GL/JP/SG which would easily, without a doubt, kill a hive. But no, sieges it is!! And sometimes aliens have a smaller or less enthusiastic team, which means 1 or 2 out of 6 or 7 aliens actually tries to take down the TF and so on. They go onos, regen, adrenaline, and whatever else, but get torn apart like confetti in a matter of seconds by all the HA/HMGers. If you can do that to an onos, why can't you do that to a hive!?

My point is that sieges are WAY too easy to just spam all over the place and kill anything. Just my 2 cents, but maybe sieges should be upped in price, like... a lot.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First you say that marines shouldn't use sieges because they could easily kill the hive without them, and then you say your point is that sieges are overpowered? You're being a bit inconsistent here.

Ollj · August 2003

i bet you aliensa only build od all over the place eh?
whiner.

zippy · August 2003

siege normally for 2nd hive and a ha rush for last works wonders.

Unless you do the lame **** shotgun hive rush at start of game...lmao

zippy

BoxCarBob · August 2003

The problem lies mostly in risk. The fact is, that the commander does not want to waste his investments in heavy armor HMGs when he can, for a small cost, eliminate that risk by constructing seige-turrets. Moreover, if the commander commands a risky assault on the hive, the assault can be halted by even one or two marine deaths, that results in a domino effect when the aliens go on sucicide runs to save their hive by trying to pick-off the marines one-by-one, and by each marine death, it becomes easier to take out the next. If this occurs, then the threat on the hive can be wiped out and the course of the game changed completly.

Kid-A · August 2003

Seiges are used becuase when you place them near a hive you force the aliens to attack you on your terms (with turrets) rather than defend in a 'friendly' location. If you can't see the tactical advantage of that then do some comming.

SemperFi1 · August 2003

Yeah seiges are really easy now!I especially like having to drop 9 observatories just to scan the hive 3 times! Yeah really easy

Speed_2_Dave · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Aug 27 2003, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> HMG currently does 1/2 damage to buildings.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
winner.

It's easier to spend 30(TF and upgrade)+20-40(Turrets)+30(2 sieges) than it is to rush your HA train into the hive. Hive locations are nasty, hive locations hurt. Hive locations spawn aliens all over the place. Where the team might have seem organized earlier, going into a zone that is so hot that you'll get people popping out and charging at you from all sides, you might want to just siege it. Heck you don't even need those Turrets if it's the final hive. Also, sieging is an almost guaranteed victory, rushing in isn't.

Kid-A · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Aug 27 2003, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yeah seiges are really easy now!I especially like having to drop 9 observatories just to scan the hive 3 times! Yeah really easy  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I think ||SemperFi|| just pwned this thread...

lazygamer · August 2003

My theory is that an HA train siege attempt means that the marines have alot of weakspots. Weakspots like a lockeddown hive, res nodes(double res hehe), or even spawn.

This is because the marines are concentrating on their siege. There is a good chance that they have make a BIG investment in this tactic(unless your team has been getting pwned). So if this happens in a fairly even game where both teams got it together, it's not all over.

It's a touchy situation. You need lots of alien teamwork to harm that HA train(sometimes), and they can only be harmed in-between turret posts. If they set up a good siege position, things get tougher. Remember that they will have to leave that siege post, or their base, and that is where your last chance is. An HA that is killed is progress, and costs money and time.

The only thing I can see is mounting offensives to distract them, so you can get res for a new hive, more defenses, and more higher evolutions. These offensives must begin the moment they are marching, it cannot begin when your 2nd to last hive has just been killed. Now if there is suddenly a new surge of extra res, and the aliens are slowing down(or actually weakening) that HA train, the game is not over.

If possible, have chokepoints fortified to slow them down, just don't waste time on the actual hive. Chokepoints that block the hive must be walked past or destroyed, wasting their time(they won't siege the chokepoints, they won't reach the hive and it's a waste of res). These chokepoints are also the ideal places to attack.

Now I'm not saying it's easy to turn the tables, I'm just trying to demonstrate that it could be possible.

Hitman047 · August 2003

Pretty much all of you missed my point. And thatks for that Ollj, I appreciate that comment.

My point is that it is too easy for marines to siege. Once they have siege capability, it's all over for the aliens, unless you have really good teamwork, which in most cases is not the scenario.

Semper, maybe instead of making 9 obs, look at the hive?

The whole point of this thread, is that marines are "abusing" the sieges. They make sieges do all the work now.

"First you say that marines shouldn't use sieges because they could easily kill the hive without them, and then you say your point is that sieges are overpowered? You're being a bit inconsistent here."

That's not inconsistant. I'm saying why do the lazy way out and siege everything that exists on the map? My point is that marines are lazy, sieges are overpowered, and they should be upped in price in order to force marines to run a few extra feet to shoot at a hive with a HMG, GL, or shotty.

"Also, sieging is an almost guaranteed victory, rushing in isn't."

This is my point. It is almost guaranteed. So, in turn, it should be made un-guaranteed. It should be a bit harder to siege, because it's so easy to win, that people will do that and that only to win every game ever.

I have nothing against sieges, I use them as comm. I just hate it when people make sieges to siege every hive, and never attempt to kill it with anything else.

a_civilian · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My point is that it is too easy for marines to siege. Once they have siege capability, it's all over for the aliens, unless you have really good teamwork, which in most cases is not the scenario.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The marines need teamwork to set up siege bases, so the aliens need it to destroy them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Semper, maybe instead of making 9 obs, look at the hive?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
But you said marines just camp at the siege base until the hive is destroyed. Going into the hive room is not camping.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The whole point of this thread, is that marines are "abusing" the
sieges. They make sieges do all the work now.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The sieges exist for a reason.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"First you say that marines shouldn't use sieges because they could easily kill the hive without them, and then you say your point is that sieges are overpowered? You're being a bit inconsistent here."

That's not inconsistant. I'm saying why do the lazy way out and siege everything that exists on the map? My point is that marines are lazy, sieges are overpowered, and they should be upped in price in order to force marines to run a few extra feet to shoot at a hive with a HMG, GL, or shotty.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It certainly seems inconsistent when you say marines could easily destroy a hive without sieging (implying that they're underpowered), and you then say that sieges are overpowered.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hitman047 @ Aug 27 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Also, sieging is an almost guaranteed victory, rushing in isn't."

This is my point. It is almost guaranteed. So, in turn, it should be made un-guaranteed. It should be a bit harder to siege, because it's so easy to win, that people will do that and that only to win every game ever.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Setting up a siege base is costly and time-consuming. In my opinion, sieging is already difficult enough.

Barneys_Soul · August 2003

cmon, its fun to watch a siege make a bunch of wite stuf com outa te hive <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>, ushily te clianes rig up the hive with ocs and movements(for trasportation) so siege is easyer and mor fun. i DO NOT want its price increased ocs are hard enough to kil already

Fade_Dunaway · August 2003

Hitman, no offense, but calling seige overpowered is a cop-out. Seige is a defining element of marine play.

What would you like changed about seige? It requires a large res investment, relies on a single structure to keep it working (TF) and provides a focal point for good battles. I don't see the problem.

ViolenceJack · August 2003

marines can easily take out hives, all u need is a few GLs to clear chambers and the hive while the HMGs, shottys back them up. any alien that comes in can be cleared by shottys and hmgs no problem.

Sieging is boring, i find blowing away aliens and destroying buildings myself more satisfying. siege should be a weapon to keep ur base clear of chambers.

If a comm scans u get the stuff come up on ur map so u can see how bad it is and what not. i have seen soo many hives with like 2 ocs in it or somin that have been sieged.

Of course if u would like to have the game where u mainly siege instead of having ur marines attacking. why not change their name to Builders. i think it suits them more than marines.

Balmark · August 2003

Hmm the servers I play, generally 1 hive would be taken down by guns .. it doesnt take too much once a PG is up

Unless its a sneak attack, and you're trying to sneak sieges, a PG will go up, followed by a TF.. the comm might upgrade to siege, but only if there is so much defense in the hive its needed.. guess its just the style thats used with the regulars

When marines are lossing though, siege is a must .. leave all turrets 99% built and get sieges up, then finish the turrets + siege

ppl will shoot the hive when they have someone watching their backs .. (or should <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> )
The aim is to get it down as fast as possible .. sieges don't achieve this all the time <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

pop in sometime <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Poofat · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Siege, Anyone?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why yes, I will have a little siege with my caution.

Seriously, why do you expect the marines to do something stupid? To give you more of a chance?

When 2 hives are locked down, and they're coming for your next hive you have 3 options:

1) F4
2) Shut up and die
3) Push them back as much as you can, causing major delays and minor losses, then **** about how long it's taking them to kill you.

Necrosis · August 2003

I see sieges all the time but they're always broken apart.

Marines keep phasing in, kharaa keep rushing, the PG or TF goes down then the whole siege goes down.

CEldin · August 2003

Personally I believe the Risk vs. Reward of sieging a hive is HIGHLY balanced. The alien team's most coveted advantage is speed and an individuality that combines itself with others when the time arises (this kind of movement is inherent with the Kharra hive site). If your alien team fails to notice a siege up outside your base its your problem for not keeping tabs on rine movement. If you notice it and they still get it up then they earned what they got.

ZERG · August 2003

The first complain of auto-targeting 1.0 sieges was that marines just sat around. Now you need LOS by either a marine or scan. If the comm has at least 3 obs your screwed 1.0 style. If it's less or marines can't get LOS on it, you have enough time to thwart the siege unless they put 100 turrets there before seiging. But then that also requires time.

Also, by seiging you force them to fight on your terms. What would rather do? Fight amongst their OCs, randomly spawning aliens, and multiple healing sources (if they got DC) or fight amonst YOUR turrets, PG, armory, whatever...

EDIT: For the most part, most experienced players will agree that sieges are pretty much balanced after the LOS nerf. It seems mostly the influx of new players are complaining about it.

GoldenShadow · August 2003

whats the LOS nerf?

RaVe · August 2003

rawr

Just treat the sieges like turret farms,how hard can that be?? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Go for bilebombs,and pit your whole teams against the odds,and hope you prevail

And if you only got 1 hive,just get an Onos instead of bilebomb,and pray that he remains alive for a long time

Swift_Idiot · August 2003

The advantage marines have is range. It always has been. They don't guard rooms by standing at the doors, they guard rooms by standing as far away from the doors and vents as possible. They attack with bullets. They have the guns. What part about this aren't you getting? Do you regularly use your knife if you're on the marine team? If anything, siege range is too short for the trouble it takes to set up a farm. If your team of alien beasts lets them set up the phase, the TF, the turrets, and then the cannons, or for that matter, if your team lets them have the resources to get the HA/HMG/SG train that trucked themselves deep into your territory to set it all up, you get exactly what you deserve. It takes between seven and twenty seconds to get from your hive to the maximum siege range from the marine's objective, so where is the problem here? This is like complaining that the pistol hits too easily from far away, or that the grenade launcher and shotgun kill stuff too easily. What the hell man? Sieges are an integral part of marine strategy, providing the ability to hit the aliens at a safe distance. They're GUNS, for chrissakes, it's what they're built to do.

You kids complain that marines don't play like aliens. The kind of mindset that causes people to hump armories, go off and rambo by themselves, or be an HA with a welder who never uses it on his teammates is one of the single biggest reasons the marines have so much trouble winning. Stop playing like a skulk and learn to wh0re your range advantage to the fullest. If it means blowing up the alien hive without even setting eyes on it, all the better.

Apos · August 2003

Sieges are awesome as they are.

If I have any quarrel, it's that this:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Setting up a siege base is costly and time-consuming. In my opinion, sieging is already difficult enough. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

is a bit of a joke. Seiging is costly, but it's not slow. With a large enough group of shotty equipped marines, a tf, phase, and turrets can go up in 40 seconds tops, and once that happens, the siege comes soon and is almost inevitable.

Too many alien strategies seem based around trying to take down siege outposts. But by that point, it's almost always too late. You have to hold the areas where the marines siege FROM to have any real chance.

a_civilian · August 2003

The 40 seconds is just to build some turrets and a phase gate. These do not guarantee success. I've seen plenty of turreted siege bases fall to a coordinated alien team.

Trevelyan · August 2003

i have a question... HOW CAN ANYONE THAT HAS PLAYED 2.0 (and alot of servers run 2.0 only) MANAGE TO FIND SOMETHING TO **** ABOUT THE MARINE TEAM!?!?!??!?!??

jesus, when the marines win, i am just as happy as they are... they are the under dog, they have a 94% chance of not winning each round on average.

Marines also enjoy the 30 seconds of pain when you devour/redeem for the 58th time in a round... why make a marine's life any harder?

Balmark · August 2003

omg .. sieges are not costly ..

And OF COURSE they take time .. its an upgrade ..
Sheesh .. if it didnt have to be upgraded .. EVERY tf on the map would have a siege along with it ..

To win, all the comm'd have to do is .. scan the map .. laf

'scan'
alien X9 dies

SimonS · August 2003

Wouldn't bee so easy is Marines only had One resource tower.

Siege, Anyone?

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