<!--QuoteBegin--Zarparchior+Aug 31 2003, 03:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zarparchior @ Aug 31 2003, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MCs have <u><b>3</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u>. DCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered. SCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that can be countered, <b>however 1 permanent ability is useless and never used in any games</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Try again. With motion tracking, silence is countered, and for the most part so is celerity.
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zarparchior+Aug 31 2003, 10:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zarparchior @ Aug 31 2003, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cloaking and scent of fear aspects are certainly nice... but the other 2 chambers provide THREE upgrades, while sensory only provides TWO technically. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And all the time, any alien is only able to take ONE completely. I don't care much right now that pheromones does bugger all, because scent of fear is possibly the greatest thing a lerk or gorge can have, even above a defensive or movement ability, and the cloaking effect benefits every single alien out there, as long as they use it. This, over all *in game* makes the sensory chamber only a miniscule amount less viable than defence or movement...and I'm talking particle size difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is possible, but if marines also play it smart, and use scanner sweep to knife all your sensories youv'e hidden around the map = bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines do play it smart and take out all the sensories, fair play to them...but were they getting res during this time...were they defending a hive or their own base? Hell they wouldn't even be able to see it when an alien is sneaking up on them attacking that cloaking chamber, being so close to it is actually the most dangerous place you can be as a marine on your own!
So...maybe the "smart" marines all go out together....then the aliens have a victory over marines in time gained.
On paper you can say "yeah well smart marines can just take out all the sensories", but anyone else can say "yeah well, if the marines play it smart all the time they'll go and take out all the DC's, MC's, OC's and RT's" as well...but this isn't how it works.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then the marines lock down hive 3, and you get only defense or movement.
Fades are pretty much useless, super-vulnerable without movement.
Onos and lerks really need the protection defense offers to keep them in the fight longer.
Instead, you've just crippled all your advanced aliens so that you can kill a few marines with a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've not crippled them at all, you've just made them play a hit and run *then* ambush game, rather than a hit and hit and hit then finally run game. Of course most onos and fade players don't want to play that way do they.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said about the observatories:
- We walk in a room. I see a couple OCs uncloak in front of me. I get a couple hits, back up. I ask the commander to scan the room. *ping a ding* "There's 3 o chambers, a gorge, and an RT. The sens is behind the crates. Here, build this TF." We siege. Room dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you have the res and a comm dumb enough to set up a siege point for 3 OC's, an RT and an SC? On paper this sort of thing works, I have seen this happen in game 0%.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - We are walking down a hall. Suddenly, a skulk appears right in front of me and kills me. He kills our whole squad. GG aliens. So we come back, I turn on my flashlight (Gives a nice contrast for me, I can see cloaked things MUCH easier) and crouch. The skulks think they're hidden and run right in the middle of the hall. Haha fooled you. Every time I open fire on a cloaked critter he *WILL* die. Why? Because he's not expecting it to happen. I shot the 'Lork off the clorf' like this because he was cloaked. I saw him and gunned him down. He was too surprised to move. We move in, knife the sensory to death, lock down a hive, and we are now gauranteed either easy fade kills or easy onos kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
**** man, if they've defended a hive with a single sensory you deserve to lock it down. Of course if such a thing is happening, don't you think the skulks spawning in the hive will band together and (because they're in a hive, in game terms there will be sensories in the hive too) they'll all be semi-transparant too, they'll then decimate you?
Or are you and your marine team mates uber-leet and you're not affected by the fact that you've got a bunch of things that you can't really see properly until they're attacking you? I know I have a good aim, but I'm bricking it if I'm in a sensory nest, because I know that no matter how good my gun is, or how good I aim, I'll probably not have the time to use it. I can only look one way after all...and even lookign that way....is what I saw actually there or has it dissapeared around a corner...or..or...etc.
It's very easy for you (as the guy above said) to give very one sided and quite frankly 100% unlikely scenario's, it's another for them to happen in game. Saying sensories are useless based on these paper theories is just...well...silly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, they really do need to fix it so that Sensory has an upgrade that Onos/Fade **** can come to love.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got to agree with this though, something at least to stop onos and fade whining (even though in my experiance they soon stop whining when they can hide in an open coridoor and devour/swipe people from behind.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt.Warhound+Sep 1 2003, 03:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt.Warhound @ Sep 1 2003, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try again. With motion tracking, silence is countered, and for the most part so is celerity.
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point, a point that can be equally transposed on to carapace for DC actually. Seeming any decent commander should be getting MT as early as he was in 1.04, we have a change.
MCs have <u><b>1</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 2 abilities that while "permanant", can be countered easily by MT. DCs have <u><b>1</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u>, 1 ability that is permenant but becomes countered by MT and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered. All of which can be countered by large marine teams. SCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that can be countered, <b>however 1 permanent ability is useless and never used in any games</b>. Regardless of this, SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT.
How the tables turn <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the reason we see so many gorges putting sc's down first is because that's what would benefit them the most. It seems like your either a gorge helping the team or a skulk camping outside the marine base saving up so you can pwn with your lerk/fade/onos. So many times I'm camping out as a gorge in a hive location when I hear a group of rines getting close, I ask for some help at the hive location and I get no response, I ask again..... no response. And of course you know the rest of the story, try to fight back and get slaughtered. Losing 10 res and a very important hive location.
The point here is that sens helps out gorges a hella of alot more then mc does. Celerity- I can try to run away, lose the hive location and have the chance of getting shot up anyway. Adrenaline- YAY! Uber spit skillz, yea... needless to say this only helps gorges with healing late in the game. (with onoses, oni, onus) Silence- Please help me if I'm wrong but aren't gorges slient anyway? And even if they aren't I'm not gonna be stalking any marines with a fatty. Movement Chamber- Yay! I can retreat to my hive and live, very nice but we lose the hive spot... not so nice when that turret farm springs up. <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now let's look at the Sens chamber. Cloaking- Well I can stay still, wait for some backup and tell my team (if I've finally gotten their attention) what is built up and what to expect and since nothing is built there yet, the comm has no reason to scan. SoF- I can see the marines coming WELL in advance and retreat, but still, I might be able to get a few oc's up buying some time. Pheremones- Don't look to me for an answer, this trait sucks, but it does leave pretty yellow and puffs, and that's more then I can say for uber spit. Sensory Chamber- Hehe, with SoF you've got a damn nice combo. You can move around with the marines basically exploring the nice little base they made giving some nice info to your team. And with SoF you can see those nasty rines coming and get a few cloaked OC's up buying some more time.
Overall I'm not trying to prove to you that sens owns mc, (in SOME areas it does) all chambers were made with comparable skills and traits making anyone good for the first chamber. Just because you like movement first doesn't mean you should try to shove it down people's throats. Also, maybe instead of being skulk and saving up for your onos try and become gorge, see how hard it is for the most important (yes, wether you like it or not, without gorges aliens will lose) alien lifeform to have mc which really doesn't help them much. SC is just a better chamber for gorges and gorges will build what helps them most, SC, and skulks want what help THEM the most, mc and there's your conclusion. (well, it concludes it for me, I just wanted a nice sounding end)
Now let the flaming begin. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Plz reply in a civil manner, this thread is getting pretty hot.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
This thread reminds me of the 1.04 days when we had a few people on the forums who actually believed that sensory first was the most effective chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkDude+Sep 1 2003, 03:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkDude @ Sep 1 2003, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the reason we see so many gorges putting sc's down first is because that's what would benefit them the most. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thing is, I think sensories, espcially when netowrked in a map properly, aid more than just a gorge, they also really help lerks and skulks, especially in the early game, the first and second hive stage. So I don't think a gorge only benefits himself by putting down sensories <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread reminds me of the 1.04 days when we had a few people on the forums who actually believed that sensory first was the most effective chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You remind me of a friend of mine, someone I know that absolutely hates *** and thinks that the only right way between humans is heterosexual relations. Any talk about **** rights and he'd speak down on those discussing it as if they were retarded idiots.
Not that I want to compare the people making comments like the above to a bigot, nor do I want to discuss the ins and outs of **** rights...however in both cases there are closed minds based on individual opinions...with absolutely no leeway for other people that have different opinions. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: By the way, I actually prefer to put MC's down first, I think it provides me with more versatility between evolutions and more benefits to supporting things near an attack at the same time. if the majority on the server want different, however, then different is put down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Aug 31 2003, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Aug 31 2003, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Edit: By the way, I actually prefer to put MC's down first, I think it provides me with more versatility between evolutions and more benefits to supporting things near an attack at the same time. if the majority on the server want different, however, then different is put down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why are you spouting this jibber about sensory first being the best chamber?
<span style='color:white'><i>I apologise... But it seemed the quote tags where not working correctly when I previewed this post, so I kind of did my own thing...</i></span>
<u>--------QUOTE--------</u> Lt.Warhound
<i>Try again. With motion tracking, silence is countered, and for the most part so is celerity.
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3.</i> <u>--------END QUOTE--------</u>
YOU try again. I will agree that Silence becomes much MUCH less useful with MT, but does it make the aliens loud again? No. It does not. If you happen to be building something, faced another direction, or have your attention diverted in any other way, silence is still very viable. MT doesn't make you loud again, and thus, does not counter Silence in the true way.
And MT counters Celerity? WT'eff'? The point of Celerity is to move faster, and thus, be a harder target to hit while also being able to move to other places faster - it is generally NOT used as a way to sneak up on people, as you're still clicking your little claws away quite loudly.
I will say again, MCs have <b>three</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered. One of them, however, can be fairly to significantly dampened in usefulness by MT.
Pings and Observatories DECLOAK you, as in the upgrade you purchased is entirely worthless while in effect or within its range. Like Silence, though, MT severly dampens the usefulness of cloak, while not entirely countering it. This means that marines are able to dampen AND counter Cloak. Is that fair? Perhaps... allegedly not being able to see your enemy should give you a tremendous disadvantage i.e. you don't know where to concentrate your fire if you don't know where it is.
<u>--------QUOTE--------</u> niaccurshi
<i>DCs have 1 permanent abilites that cannot be countered, 1 ability that is permenant but becomes countered by MT and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered. All of which can be countered by large marine teams.</i> <u>--------END QUOTE--------</u>
Er, I disagree with you even though I do see where you're coming from. DCs still have TWO permanent abilities that canont be countered. The marines will never be able to take away your Regeneration no matter how much they plead the Commander, nor will they be able to take away your thick Carapace, even if it only allows you to survive a handful of more bullets.
The thing with Regeneration is that you DO NOT want to get hit a lot. You get hurt a bit, run away, HP/armor bounces back, and you're ready for action before the marines have time to fully recover (mentally and/or physically... in theory). Is it "countered" by a lot of marines firing at you? Well... perhaps you might think so, but using this logic would mean that HA is easily countered by large skulk rushes and should be available within the first 2 minutes of gameplay. Why? Because if 4+ skulks are chewing on you that you should die quite quickly indeed, "negating" your extra armor. And if ANYONE thinks that skulks are the counter to HA then you <i>are</i> pretty silly.
I can't even say how many times I had Carapace and managed to escape with 10 or lower HP and no armor. If I had anything BUT Carapace, I'd have been dead. Good thing that ping doesn't make my extra armor disappear.
Redemption we agree on methinks.
SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT? Well... unless the aliens have been standing PERFECTLY STILL (i.e. not looking around or moving their screen in anyway) a good deal of time before the marines get there, it sure won't. As a marine (especially if we know they have SCs) and I see some MT blips fairly near our destination mystically yet magically "disappear" before we get there, you'd better believe that I'll be telling our Comm to ping the area right before we get in there. Then what? How did that counter the big, bad marine group with MT?
The solution? MT is very powerful, and needs to be countered by the aliens. It seems that marines get a lot of countering or sever dampening methods against alien upgrades, yet the aliens can do nothing about it except kill-kill-kill. The counter to siege? There is none, other than not allowing them to build it. And don't fool yourselves, if that's the "counter" then I pity your state of mind. The counter to observatories and pinging? The same: destroy the device or disallow it from being built in the first place.
As in my Suggestions thread, the best way to "balance" MT would also balance out SCs (partially, maybe using haze's idea of a lesser costing SC as well). Pheromones becomes "Augmentation" (or whatever you'd like to call it) and allows the user to be free from the tyranny of MT. Of course, he's forgoing his chances at the godly SoF, and disallowing himself the ability to Cloak-walk anywhere on the map (excluding the counters, of course). But isn't that what it's all about? Sometimes it's hard deciding whether to get Adrenaline or Celerity, or Regeneration or Carapace... or any other same chamber upgrades you might think of.
Allowing one the ability to permantly be free from MT is a great advantage... perhaps the equivilent of SoF? I hope so.
If MC gave silence AND adren. I'd consider it as a DECENT chamber. For now, worst 1st chamber. Not "useless" as 1.04 SCs were, but worst 1st chamber by far. I will admit that DC/SC is about equal. They both give deadly passive abilities to skulks which is the only thing that matters in the first 10 min of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--VeTeRaN+Aug 31 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (VeTeRaN @ Aug 31 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Go gorge and make sensory regardless of what you're teammates might say?
Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?
<!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Aug 31 2003, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Aug 31 2003, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If MC gave silence AND adren. I'd consider it as a DECENT chamber. For now, worst 1st chamber. Not "useless" as 1.04 SCs were, but worst 1st chamber by far. I will admit that DC/SC is about equal. They both give deadly passive abilities to skulks which is the only thing that matters in the first 10 min of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ?! You say that MCs are horrible first chambers?
The power of Silence before MT is god-like. The power of Celerity makes you a difficult target indeed.
Most "vets" on the alien team prefer MCs first. I try to mix it up every so often depending on what the team wants.
<!--QuoteBegin--Minstrel Knight+Sep 1 2003, 05:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Sep 1 2003, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then why are you spouting this jibber about sensory first being the best chamber? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm...not? I'm making a valid case as to why Sensory in the right circumstances is as viable as the other chambers at first hive.
and it's jibber jabber, foo' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er, I disagree with you even though I do see where you're coming from. DCs still have TWO permanent abilities that canont be countered. The marines will never be able to take away your Regeneration no matter how much they plead the Commander, nor will they be able to take away your thick Carapace, even if it only allows you to survive a handful of more bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the thing here is I said Redemption was the conditional one, as did the original poster, both the others are permenant, though carapace is utterly useless against big groups at hive one, and is also heavily countered by MT in the same way silence is, not totally, but significantly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing with Regeneration is that you DO NOT want to get hit a lot. You get hurt a bit, run away, HP/armor bounces back, and you're ready for action before the marines have time to fully recover (mentally and/or physically... in theory). Is it "countered" by a lot of marines firing at you? Well... perhaps you might think so, but using this logic would mean that HA is easily countered by large skulk rushes and should be available within the first 2 minutes of gameplay. Why? Because if 4+ skulks are chewing on you that you should die quite quickly indeed, "negating" your extra armor. And if ANYONE thinks that skulks are the counter to HA then you are pretty silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um..why? A viable counter to a lone HA marine, or even a pair of HA marines is a large group of skulks...and it's been shown time and again that skulks of groups of 4-6 can take out 1-2 HA's quite adequately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't even say how many times I had Carapace and managed to escape with 10 or lower HP and no armor. If I had anything BUT Carapace, I'd have been dead. Good thing that ping doesn't make my extra armor disappear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not denying this, I'm not denying any upgrade and chamber has it's benefit, that is the point I think <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Redemption we agree on methinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT? Well... unless the aliens have been standing PERFECTLY STILL (i.e. not looking around or moving their screen in anyway) a good deal of time before the marines get there, it sure won't. As a marine (especially if we know they have SCs) and I see some MT blips fairly near our destination mystically yet magically "disappear" before we get there, you'd better believe that I'll be telling our Comm to ping the area right before we get in there. Then what? How did that counter the big, bad marine group with MT?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My analysis was based upon proper networking of sensories, as that is how they're meant to be used. In such a case you'll not see MT blips at any point where it's useful to you...and here we're getting into paper theory teritory...because maybe your comm won't ping at all...maybe he'll ping and show up nothing.
With sensory networks a skulk doesn't have to be staying still, he can run and run and run and be barely visible in a properly networked sensory system, and you won't know he's on you until you hear the pitter patter and feel the bite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> a good of super good marines will counter these skulks fine enough I know...but those 4+ skulks? I'm sorry, but if you can't see where they're coming from, don't know if they're running at you or just strafing around you...and can't exactly see what you're shooting at...your marine team will be in dissarray!
A good marine team might perservere through it...but most marine teams will probably be decimated by it. I know I personally can take out two or three (if I'm lucky) average marines when I have no upgrades and no sensory help, so how much can I get done when they don't know how close I am until it's too late? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allowing one the ability to permantly be free from MT is a great advantage... perhaps the equivilent of SoF? I hope so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see MT as a problem, you have to be aware of it and adapt to it...the difference is that sensory IS the direct counter to it. If you're walking while cloaked in a sensory chambers radius...you don't get shown on MT. A properly networked area of sensory is a beautiful and very very effective counter to MT. For roughly the same cost as MT you can negate it's worth immediately around a marine base.
Take Origin for example, they have an obs and MT. We put up a sensory in the hallway up from laser drilling, we put one behind the crates on the fork towards computer lab, we put another sensory in the corridor that forks off towards furnace (the bridge bit). a fourth one goes at the back of computer lab, and a fifth one in the center of cargo.
From there you've got a pretty effective spread of Sensories for 50 res, just 5 res more than the MT costs, and as soon as you get out of biodome, furnace, or ventilation by more than 20 meters, you're lost on motion tracking...thats petty damn effective as a counter if you ask me.
yes they can ping a couple of areas to see for any action...but how often does that happen in game? Not often at all.
I don't think this thread should become a "nerf MT" thread anyway, or a counter MT thread...so my last points are just a clarification to show why sensories shouldn't be relegated to a third hive chamber, as they can be so useful from early on.
with 2.01d sensory chambers - it has become a viable starting chamber. however the problem with sensory first is that your team must be able to handle higher weapons and your team must be generous enough to drop sensory around the map. if your team cant do either then well your screwed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> 3 sensory in your hive wont do you much good... ever
<!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Sep 1 2003, 05:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Sep 1 2003, 05:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If MC gave silence AND adren. I'd consider it as a DECENT chamber. For now, worst 1st chamber. Not "useless" as 1.04 SCs were, but worst 1st chamber by far. I will admit that DC/SC is about equal. They both give deadly passive abilities to skulks which is the only thing that matters in the first 10 min of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well I've seen onoses at 8 minutes and fades at 5...so what are they meant to do. The onoses might be able to survive decently, but fades can't.
And for such a poor chamber, if you don't use MC until third hive, you lose a lot of interchangability. Adrenaline is good for any alien except skulk, celerity for any alien except lerk...you don't need to die and change evolutions to re-evolve into other aliens...and they're also a good alternative way to make "heal bases" that are "manned" by gorges, they also heal faster I believe.
Just keeping up apperances to show all the chambers are the same for their own different reasons <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh and...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
<!--QuoteBegin--snozzle+Sep 1 2003, 06:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (snozzle @ Sep 1 2003, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> with 2.01d sensory chambers - it has become a viable starting chamber. however the problem with sensory first is that your team must be able to handle higher weapons and your team must be generous enough to drop sensory around the map. if your team cant do either then well your screwed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> 3 sensory in your hive wont do you much good... ever <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> another thing is you're less likely to lose your sensory abilities. Say you get your second hive up, and then they siege your first hive...you have the option to have all three chambers when you build the third....but you won't be able to build more SC....beauty of it is that SC usually just lays around the map for a LOT longer than DC and MC and you're a lot less likely to lose your SoF or cloaking for it.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
Regarding motion tracking countering celerity and carapace, I'd actually turn that around and say celerity and carapace are partial counters to motion tracking. This is because motion tracking is at peak effectiveness if your enemy is weak and has to rely on stealth, and this is not the case if they have carapace or celerity.
I find MC and SC both good, played correctly. MC is future proof for the long term game, useful for higher level aliens. SoF is my favourite skulk upgrade, and combined with generous numbers of SCs around the map and close to the marine base, you can easily prevent the marines from ever expanding properly. On the other hand, SCs are rubbish when you have two hives and are looking for onos and fades.
Sens isn't useless, you just have to play for the quick victory. Overall, I'd prefer MC first though. DCs suck as a first chamber, imo.
End of discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Er... it may be, but it can be built regardles of the number of hives and existing chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--snozzle+Sep 1 2003, 12:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (snozzle @ Sep 1 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> your team must be generous enough to drop sensory around the map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, YPB?
As a regular gorge I find that on NS2 there is no shortage of res if other gorges are doing their job right and capping the RTs too.
Dropping a sens in passing hardly takes effort. It even builds itself if you don't want to invest those few seconds buiding it yourself.
And 10 res? Hardly costly.
One more point, so far no one has mentioned that SCs give you a warning when a marine approaches. When you are down to one last hive (you should still have either def or mov upgrades left fron second/thrid hive) the sens chamber can be that little edge you need to foil marine sneak-attacks.
And as Niaccrushi says, SENSORIES DON'T FADE AWAY. (Sorry about the pun.) -They remain for most of the game. It's all very well dropping a lone defence chamber as a heal point or to cover some OCs, but that will be the first target by a passing marine unless it is cloaked.
I think both tactics are good, but for different styles of play. I like going sens as first or second (if second, then def is 100% first cos it heals buildings. Mov hive jump is cool but I can move to a hive faster than I can go round healing all my OCs!) what was I saying? Oh yeah. Going sens first will make for a creepy game, (in the style of the orriginal NS. Siege maps may be fun, but they lack the atmosphere,) whilst mov will be a fast attack game. Def usually goes in favour of res hogers who go onos rather than put up a hive. Face it, fade is poor without 3 hives. (NB: If you want to use slash, sens makes it much easier there too. Just creep up, and CHOP.)
I think I've lost myself a bit there, and despite priding myself with my use of English it still is a mess. If you can find an arguement in there; good.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueNovember+Sep 1 2003, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueNovember @ Sep 1 2003, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Face it, fade is poor without 3 hives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if you do not use blink.
<!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Sep 1 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Sep 1 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> d->M->s or m->d->s is most effective
ALL lifeforms benefit from defense -- even the hive. it heals crap, and lets you survive longer (redempt, regen, carapace)
movement allows you to attack longer (lerk/fade/gorge bilebomb), silence, and celerity (good for all lifeforms, mainly skulk/gorge)
sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL. the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.
Movement is great either first or second, because you can move between hives quickly defense is always needed at somepoint <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One more.
Silence can never be as good as cloak.
I'd really like to hear someone's arguement against that. With cloak, you are invisible, and if a marine hears you, what's he gonna do? Shoot the air? Even with surround sound the human psyche can't locate the origin of sounds to that degree of sccuracy.
With silence, if a marine sees you on his HUD (mini map,) then he turns round and BANG. You are also not <i>silent</i>until you get 3rd level mov. You cloak instantly at lvl1, only it wears off quiker. A dropped sens <i>chamber</i> will counter this anyway.
NB: Cloaked aliens do not show up on mini map. Could this be added as an upgrade? Hmm. Not really worth it.
<!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Sep 1 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Sep 1 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> d->M->s or m->d->s is most effective
ALL lifeforms benefit from defense -- even the hive. it heals crap, and lets you survive longer (redempt, regen, carapace)
movement allows you to attack longer (lerk/fade/gorge bilebomb), silence, and celerity (good for all lifeforms, mainly skulk/gorge)
sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL. the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.
Movement is great either first or second, because you can move between hives quickly defense is always needed at somepoint <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Sep 1 2003, 12:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 1 2003, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--BlueNovember+Sep 1 2003, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueNovember @ Sep 1 2003, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Face it, fade is poor without 3 hives. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if you do not use blink. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have yet to see anyone blink someone to death.
Nah, I see your point. Blink up to them, then slash? Good, but you must agree that fading into view and then watching (imagining) the look on the marine's face, just before you slice it, -is better.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jojoshua+Sep 1 2003, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jojoshua @ Sep 1 2003, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
If you want to prove me wrong, drop an IP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
Comments
DCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered.
SCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that can be countered, <b>however 1 permanent ability is useless and never used in any games</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try again. With motion tracking, silence is countered, and for the most part so is celerity.
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3.
And all the time, any alien is only able to take ONE completely. I don't care much right now that pheromones does bugger all, because scent of fear is possibly the greatest thing a lerk or gorge can have, even above a defensive or movement ability, and the cloaking effect benefits every single alien out there, as long as they use it. This, over all *in game* makes the sensory chamber only a miniscule amount less viable than defence or movement...and I'm talking particle size difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is possible, but if marines also play it smart, and use scanner sweep to knife all your sensories youv'e hidden around the map = bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines do play it smart and take out all the sensories, fair play to them...but were they getting res during this time...were they defending a hive or their own base? Hell they wouldn't even be able to see it when an alien is sneaking up on them attacking that cloaking chamber, being so close to it is actually the most dangerous place you can be as a marine on your own!
So...maybe the "smart" marines all go out together....then the aliens have a victory over marines in time gained.
On paper you can say "yeah well smart marines can just take out all the sensories", but anyone else can say "yeah well, if the marines play it smart all the time they'll go and take out all the DC's, MC's, OC's and RT's" as well...but this isn't how it works.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then the marines lock down hive 3, and you get only defense or movement.
Fades are pretty much useless, super-vulnerable without movement.
Onos and lerks really need the protection defense offers to keep them in the fight longer.
Instead, you've just crippled all your advanced aliens so that you can kill a few marines with a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've not crippled them at all, you've just made them play a hit and run *then* ambush game, rather than a hit and hit and hit then finally run game. Of course most onos and fade players don't want to play that way do they.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said about the observatories:
- We walk in a room. I see a couple OCs uncloak in front of me. I get a couple hits, back up. I ask the commander to scan the room. *ping a ding* "There's 3 o chambers, a gorge, and an RT. The sens is behind the crates. Here, build this TF." We siege. Room dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you have the res and a comm dumb enough to set up a siege point for 3 OC's, an RT and an SC? On paper this sort of thing works, I have seen this happen in game 0%.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - We are walking down a hall. Suddenly, a skulk appears right in front of me and kills me. He kills our whole squad. GG aliens. So we come back, I turn on my flashlight (Gives a nice contrast for me, I can see cloaked things MUCH easier) and crouch. The skulks think they're hidden and run right in the middle of the hall. Haha fooled you. Every time I open fire on a cloaked critter he *WILL* die. Why? Because he's not expecting it to happen. I shot the 'Lork off the clorf' like this because he was cloaked. I saw him and gunned him down. He was too surprised to move. We move in, knife the sensory to death, lock down a hive, and we are now gauranteed either easy fade kills or easy onos kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
**** man, if they've defended a hive with a single sensory you deserve to lock it down. Of course if such a thing is happening, don't you think the skulks spawning in the hive will band together and (because they're in a hive, in game terms there will be sensories in the hive too) they'll all be semi-transparant too, they'll then decimate you?
Or are you and your marine team mates uber-leet and you're not affected by the fact that you've got a bunch of things that you can't really see properly until they're attacking you? I know I have a good aim, but I'm bricking it if I'm in a sensory nest, because I know that no matter how good my gun is, or how good I aim, I'll probably not have the time to use it. I can only look one way after all...and even lookign that way....is what I saw actually there or has it dissapeared around a corner...or..or...etc.
It's very easy for you (as the guy above said) to give very one sided and quite frankly 100% unlikely scenario's, it's another for them to happen in game. Saying sensories are useless based on these paper theories is just...well...silly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, they really do need to fix it so that Sensory has an upgrade that Onos/Fade **** can come to love.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got to agree with this though, something at least to stop onos and fade whining (even though in my experiance they soon stop whining when they can hide in an open coridoor and devour/swipe people from behind.
-Lee
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, a point that can be equally transposed on to carapace for DC actually. Seeming any decent commander should be getting MT as early as he was in 1.04, we have a change.
MCs have <u><b>1</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 2 abilities that while "permanant", can be countered easily by MT.
DCs have <u><b>1</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u>, 1 ability that is permenant but becomes countered by MT and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered. All of which can be countered by large marine teams.
SCs have <u><b>2</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered</u> and 1 conditional ability that can be countered, <b>however 1 permanent ability is useless and never used in any games</b>. Regardless of this, SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT.
How the tables turn <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
The point here is that sens helps out gorges a hella of alot more then mc does. Celerity- I can try to run away, lose the hive location and have the chance of getting shot up anyway. Adrenaline- YAY! Uber spit skillz, yea... needless to say this only helps gorges with healing late in the game. (with onoses, oni, onus) Silence- Please help me if I'm wrong but aren't gorges slient anyway? And even if they aren't I'm not gonna be stalking any marines with a fatty. Movement Chamber- Yay! I can retreat to my hive and live, very nice but we lose the hive spot... not so nice when that turret farm springs up. <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now let's look at the Sens chamber. Cloaking- Well I can stay still, wait for some backup and tell my team (if I've finally gotten their attention) what is built up and what to expect and since nothing is built there yet, the comm has no reason to scan. SoF- I can see the marines coming WELL in advance and retreat, but still, I might be able to get a few oc's up buying some time. Pheremones- Don't look to me for an answer, this trait sucks, but it does leave pretty yellow and puffs, and that's more then I can say for uber spit. Sensory Chamber- Hehe, with SoF you've got a damn nice combo. You can move around with the marines basically exploring the nice little base they made giving some nice info to your team. And with SoF you can see those nasty rines coming and get a few cloaked OC's up buying some more time.
Overall I'm not trying to prove to you that sens owns mc, (in SOME areas it does) all chambers were made with comparable skills and traits making anyone good for the first chamber. Just because you like movement first doesn't mean you should try to shove it down people's throats. Also, maybe instead of being skulk and saving up for your onos try and become gorge, see how hard it is for the most important (yes, wether you like it or not, without gorges aliens will lose) alien lifeform to have mc which really doesn't help them much. SC is just a better chamber for gorges and gorges will build what helps them most, SC, and skulks want what help THEM the most, mc and there's your conclusion. (well, it concludes it for me, I just wanted a nice sounding end)
Now let the flaming begin. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Plz reply in a civil manner, this thread is getting pretty hot.
Thing is, I think sensories, espcially when netowrked in a map properly, aid more than just a gorge, they also really help lerks and skulks, especially in the early game, the first and second hive stage. So I don't think a gorge only benefits himself by putting down sensories <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread reminds me of the 1.04 days when we had a few people on the forums who actually believed that sensory first was the most effective chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You remind me of a friend of mine, someone I know that absolutely hates *** and thinks that the only right way between humans is heterosexual relations. Any talk about **** rights and he'd speak down on those discussing it as if they were retarded idiots.
Not that I want to compare the people making comments like the above to a bigot, nor do I want to discuss the ins and outs of **** rights...however in both cases there are closed minds based on individual opinions...with absolutely no leeway for other people that have different opinions. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: By the way, I actually prefer to put MC's down first, I think it provides me with more versatility between evolutions and more benefits to supporting things near an attack at the same time. if the majority on the server want different, however, then different is put down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Yes.
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why are you spouting this jibber about sensory first being the best chamber?
Interchanging the MC and DC isn't a problem.
The only reason i'd ever put sensory up first is if I wasn't serious about winning. It would seem the results of the poll would agree with MC first.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=43138&hl=poll' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...t=43138&hl=poll</a>
But it seemed the quote tags where not working correctly when I previewed this post, so I kind of did my own thing...</i></span>
<u>--------QUOTE--------</u>
Lt.Warhound
<i>Try again. With motion tracking, silence is countered, and for the most part so is celerity.
With MT going, as a marine, I can see you coming a mile away, and be aiming as I wait. You step out into a clear line of fire, bang.
Doesn't matter how slient or speedy you are, the advantage is to the marine if he's already aiming.
MCs have +one permanent ability that can not be countered. Not 3.</i>
<u>--------END QUOTE--------</u>
YOU try again. I will agree that Silence becomes much MUCH less useful with MT, but does it make the aliens loud again? No. It does not. If you happen to be building something, faced another direction, or have your attention diverted in any other way, silence is still very viable. MT doesn't make you loud again, and thus, does not counter Silence in the true way.
And MT counters Celerity? WT'eff'? The point of Celerity is to move faster, and thus, be a harder target to hit while also being able to move to other places faster - it is generally NOT used as a way to sneak up on people, as you're still clicking your little claws away quite loudly.
I will say again, MCs have <b>three</b> permanent abilites that cannot be countered. One of them, however, can be fairly to significantly dampened in usefulness by MT.
Pings and Observatories DECLOAK you, as in the upgrade you purchased is entirely worthless while in effect or within its range. Like Silence, though, MT severly dampens the usefulness of cloak, while not entirely countering it. This means that marines are able to dampen AND counter Cloak. Is that fair? Perhaps... allegedly not being able to see your enemy should give you a tremendous disadvantage i.e. you don't know where to concentrate your fire if you don't know where it is.
<u>--------QUOTE--------</u>
niaccurshi
<i>DCs have 1 permanent abilites that cannot be countered, 1 ability that is permenant but becomes countered by MT and 1 conditional ability that relies on luck and timing to be countered. All of which can be countered by large marine teams.</i>
<u>--------END QUOTE--------</u>
Er, I disagree with you even though I do see where you're coming from. DCs still have TWO permanent abilities that canont be countered. The marines will never be able to take away your Regeneration no matter how much they plead the Commander, nor will they be able to take away your thick Carapace, even if it only allows you to survive a handful of more bullets.
The thing with Regeneration is that you DO NOT want to get hit a lot. You get hurt a bit, run away, HP/armor bounces back, and you're ready for action before the marines have time to fully recover (mentally and/or physically... in theory). Is it "countered" by a lot of marines firing at you? Well... perhaps you might think so, but using this logic would mean that HA is easily countered by large skulk rushes and should be available within the first 2 minutes of gameplay. Why? Because if 4+ skulks are chewing on you that you should die quite quickly indeed, "negating" your extra armor. And if ANYONE thinks that skulks are the counter to HA then you <i>are</i> pretty silly.
I can't even say how many times I had Carapace and managed to escape with 10 or lower HP and no armor. If I had anything BUT Carapace, I'd have been dead. Good thing that ping doesn't make my extra armor disappear.
Redemption we agree on methinks.
SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT? Well... unless the aliens have been standing PERFECTLY STILL (i.e. not looking around or moving their screen in anyway) a good deal of time before the marines get there, it sure won't. As a marine (especially if we know they have SCs) and I see some MT blips fairly near our destination mystically yet magically "disappear" before we get there, you'd better believe that I'll be telling our Comm to ping the area right before we get in there. Then what? How did that counter the big, bad marine group with MT?
The solution? MT is very powerful, and needs to be countered by the aliens. It seems that marines get a lot of countering or sever dampening methods against alien upgrades, yet the aliens can do nothing about it except kill-kill-kill. The counter to siege? There is none, other than not allowing them to build it. And don't fool yourselves, if that's the "counter" then I pity your state of mind. The counter to observatories and pinging? The same: destroy the device or disallow it from being built in the first place.
As in my Suggestions thread, the best way to "balance" MT would also balance out SCs (partially, maybe using haze's idea of a lesser costing SC as well). Pheromones becomes "Augmentation" (or whatever you'd like to call it) and allows the user to be free from the tyranny of MT. Of course, he's forgoing his chances at the godly SoF, and disallowing himself the ability to Cloak-walk anywhere on the map (excluding the counters, of course). But isn't that what it's all about? Sometimes it's hard deciding whether to get Adrenaline or Celerity, or Regeneration or Carapace... or any other same chamber upgrades you might think of.
Allowing one the ability to permantly be free from MT is a great advantage... perhaps the equivilent of SoF? I hope so.
Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?
No.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
?! You say that MCs are horrible first chambers?
The power of Silence before MT is god-like.
The power of Celerity makes you a difficult target indeed.
Most "vets" on the alien team prefer MCs first. I try to mix it up every so often depending on what the team wants.
End of discussion.
I'm...not? I'm making a valid case as to why Sensory in the right circumstances is as viable as the other chambers at first hive.
and it's jibber jabber, foo' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er, I disagree with you even though I do see where you're coming from. DCs still have TWO permanent abilities that canont be countered. The marines will never be able to take away your Regeneration no matter how much they plead the Commander, nor will they be able to take away your thick Carapace, even if it only allows you to survive a handful of more bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the thing here is I said Redemption was the conditional one, as did the original poster, both the others are permenant, though carapace is utterly useless against big groups at hive one, and is also heavily countered by MT in the same way silence is, not totally, but significantly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing with Regeneration is that you DO NOT want to get hit a lot. You get hurt a bit, run away, HP/armor bounces back, and you're ready for action before the marines have time to fully recover (mentally and/or physically... in theory). Is it "countered" by a lot of marines firing at you? Well... perhaps you might think so, but using this logic would mean that HA is easily countered by large skulk rushes and should be available within the first 2 minutes of gameplay. Why? Because if 4+ skulks are chewing on you that you should die quite quickly indeed, "negating" your extra armor. And if ANYONE thinks that skulks are the counter to HA then you are pretty silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um..why? A viable counter to a lone HA marine, or even a pair of HA marines is a large group of skulks...and it's been shown time and again that skulks of groups of 4-6 can take out 1-2 HA's quite adequately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't even say how many times I had Carapace and managed to escape with 10 or lower HP and no armor. If I had anything BUT Carapace, I'd have been dead. Good thing that ping doesn't make my extra armor disappear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not denying this, I'm not denying any upgrade and chamber has it's benefit, that is the point I think <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Redemption we agree on methinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SC is the only chamber that can make a mockery of large marine groups that have the benefit of MT? Well... unless the aliens have been standing PERFECTLY STILL (i.e. not looking around or moving their screen in anyway) a good deal of time before the marines get there, it sure won't. As a marine (especially if we know they have SCs) and I see some MT blips fairly near our destination mystically yet magically "disappear" before we get there, you'd better believe that I'll be telling our Comm to ping the area right before we get in there. Then what? How did that counter the big, bad marine group with MT?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My analysis was based upon proper networking of sensories, as that is how they're meant to be used. In such a case you'll not see MT blips at any point where it's useful to you...and here we're getting into paper theory teritory...because maybe your comm won't ping at all...maybe he'll ping and show up nothing.
With sensory networks a skulk doesn't have to be staying still, he can run and run and run and be barely visible in a properly networked sensory system, and you won't know he's on you until you hear the pitter patter and feel the bite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> a good of super good marines will counter these skulks fine enough I know...but those 4+ skulks? I'm sorry, but if you can't see where they're coming from, don't know if they're running at you or just strafing around you...and can't exactly see what you're shooting at...your marine team will be in dissarray!
A good marine team might perservere through it...but most marine teams will probably be decimated by it. I know I personally can take out two or three (if I'm lucky) average marines when I have no upgrades and no sensory help, so how much can I get done when they don't know how close I am until it's too late? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allowing one the ability to permantly be free from MT is a great advantage... perhaps the equivilent of SoF? I hope so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see MT as a problem, you have to be aware of it and adapt to it...the difference is that sensory IS the direct counter to it. If you're walking while cloaked in a sensory chambers radius...you don't get shown on MT. A properly networked area of sensory is a beautiful and very very effective counter to MT. For roughly the same cost as MT you can negate it's worth immediately around a marine base.
Take Origin for example, they have an obs and MT. We put up a sensory in the hallway up from laser drilling, we put one behind the crates on the fork towards computer lab, we put another sensory in the corridor that forks off towards furnace (the bridge bit). a fourth one goes at the back of computer lab, and a fifth one in the center of cargo.
From there you've got a pretty effective spread of Sensories for 50 res, just 5 res more than the MT costs, and as soon as you get out of biodome, furnace, or ventilation by more than 20 meters, you're lost on motion tracking...thats petty damn effective as a counter if you ask me.
yes they can ping a couple of areas to see for any action...but how often does that happen in game? Not often at all.
I don't think this thread should become a "nerf MT" thread anyway, or a counter MT thread...so my last points are just a clarification to show why sensories shouldn't be relegated to a third hive chamber, as they can be so useful from early on.
-Lee
well I've seen onoses at 8 minutes and fades at 5...so what are they meant to do. The onoses might be able to survive decently, but fades can't.
And for such a poor chamber, if you don't use MC until third hive, you lose a lot of interchangability. Adrenaline is good for any alien except skulk, celerity for any alien except lerk...you don't need to die and change evolutions to re-evolve into other aliens...and they're also a good alternative way to make "heal bases" that are "manned" by gorges, they also heal faster I believe.
Just keeping up apperances to show all the chambers are the same for their own different reasons <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh and...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee
another thing is you're less likely to lose your sensory abilities. Say you get your second hive up, and then they siege your first hive...you have the option to have all three chambers when you build the third....but you won't be able to build more SC....beauty of it is that SC usually just lays around the map for a LOT longer than DC and MC and you're a lot less likely to lose your SoF or cloaking for it.
-Lee
Sens isn't useless, you just have to play for the quick victory. Overall, I'd prefer MC first though. DCs suck as a first chamber, imo.
End of discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er... it may be, but it can be built regardles of the number of hives and existing chambers.
or
m->d->s is most effective
ALL lifeforms benefit from defense -- even the hive. it heals crap, and lets you survive longer (redempt, regen, carapace)
movement allows you to attack longer (lerk/fade/gorge bilebomb), silence, and celerity (good for all lifeforms, mainly skulk/gorge)
sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL.
the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.
Movement is great either first or second, because you can move between hives quickly
defense is always needed at somepoint
Yes, YPB?
As a regular gorge I find that on NS2 there is no shortage of res if other gorges are doing their job right and capping the RTs too.
Dropping a sens in passing hardly takes effort. It even builds itself if you don't want to invest those few seconds buiding it yourself.
And 10 res? Hardly costly.
One more point, so far no one has mentioned that SCs give you a warning when a marine approaches. When you are down to one last hive (you should still have either def or mov upgrades left fron second/thrid hive) the sens chamber can be that little edge you need to foil marine sneak-attacks.
And as Niaccrushi says, SENSORIES DON'T FADE AWAY. (Sorry about the pun.) -They remain for most of the game. It's all very well dropping a lone defence chamber as a heal point or to cover some OCs, but that will be the first target by a passing marine unless it is cloaked.
After reading Evil's post I am now in two minds.
I think both tactics are good, but for different styles of play. I like going sens as first or second (if second, then def is 100% first cos it heals buildings. Mov hive jump is cool but I can move to a hive faster than I can go round healing all my OCs!) what was I saying?
Oh yeah. Going sens first will make for a creepy game, (in the style of the orriginal NS. Siege maps may be fun, but they lack the atmosphere,) whilst mov will be a fast attack game. Def usually goes in favour of res hogers who go onos rather than put up a hive. Face it, fade is poor without 3 hives. (NB: If you want to use slash, sens makes it much easier there too. Just creep up, and CHOP.)
I think I've lost myself a bit there, and despite priding myself with my use of English it still is a mess. If you can find an arguement in there; good.
Only if you do not use blink.
or
m->d->s is most effective
ALL lifeforms benefit from defense -- even the hive. it heals crap, and lets you survive longer (redempt, regen, carapace)
movement allows you to attack longer (lerk/fade/gorge bilebomb), silence, and celerity (good for all lifeforms, mainly skulk/gorge)
sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL.
the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.
Movement is great either first or second, because you can move between hives quickly
defense is always needed at somepoint <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One more.
Silence can never be as good as cloak.
I'd really like to hear someone's arguement against that. With cloak, you are invisible, and if a marine hears you, what's he gonna do? Shoot the air? Even with surround sound the human psyche can't locate the origin of sounds to that degree of sccuracy.
With silence, if a marine sees you on his HUD (mini map,) then he turns round and BANG. You are also not <i>silent</i>until you get 3rd level mov. You cloak instantly at lvl1, only it wears off quiker. A dropped sens <i>chamber</i> will counter this anyway.
NB: Cloaked aliens do not show up on mini map. Could this be added as an upgrade? Hmm. Not really worth it.
or
m->d->s is most effective
ALL lifeforms benefit from defense -- even the hive. it heals crap, and lets you survive longer (redempt, regen, carapace)
movement allows you to attack longer (lerk/fade/gorge bilebomb), silence, and celerity (good for all lifeforms, mainly skulk/gorge)
sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL.
the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.
Movement is great either first or second, because you can move between hives quickly
defense is always needed at somepoint <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
If you want to prove me wrong, drop an IP.
Only if you do not use blink. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have yet to see anyone blink someone to death.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nah, I see your point. Blink up to them, then slash? Good, but you must agree that fading into view and then watching (imagining) the look on the marine's face, just before you slice it, -is better.
Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
If you want to prove me wrong, drop an IP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
But how can sens help deny res nodes?