Well its impossible for him to make statements about the Bible as a whole, but not about the old Testament. He knew all about that. But Nem0's still right, it IS impossible to tell someone they are not a Christian.
Doesnt sit right with you Wheeee? Me neither. Having spent my whole life in the church I know what constitutes a Christian and what doesnt. But I simply cannot go around claiming that someone else who claims they are a Christian isnt. I can be HIGHLY skeptical, but I cant prove them wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crazy_Monkey+Sep 7 2003, 01:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazy_Monkey @ Sep 7 2003, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Christianity: "The state or fact of being a Christian."
Christian: "One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." Professes: "To affirm openly; declare or claim" Belief: "The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another"
Definition of Christianity. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Question is, what is the teachings of Jesus? Those letter that Paul the Spammer wrote to the corinthians and all other proto-christians who couldn't figure out how to unsubscribe? Or the apocryphical testaments that you probably never heard of?
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 7 2003, 07:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 7 2003, 07:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not that the New Testament specifcally says "Homosexuality=bad" Or, at least, I've never read trhat part, but it does say <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven--Matthew 5:18-19 RSV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically, this means all old testament laws still apply (which means that all christions should still eat kosher and all that, which they do not) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that, in turn, probably was a bit of a headache when they had to proselytize to the pig eaters of the world. After having their first 500 missionaries quartered and stoned to death they said "Allright, strike out the kosher food". Christanity is a long log file of "adaption". Isn't it quaint that Saint Hans Eve is celebrated on the same day as Summer Solstice where I live, that was celebrated back when we were living to norse mythology? And it is odd that we celebrate Christmas Eve a mere few days after Winter Solstice. The True, Real Christian holidy, Passover, isnt' much of a deal around here. Just a nice chance to get some days off and start the garden work. That is how christianity was "made culturally appropriate" for my region of the world. Who knows what other countless adaptions that has taken place during the last 2000 years, including the current homophobia.
There is a problem on those religious people, no matter their convictions, who puts rules and dogma higher than the spirituality, including those who want to deny LGCM their christianity on "technical reasons".
lol Imm this is supposed to be a serious discussion. Paul the spammer lol.
"WTH, I keep blocking him but hes using multiple addys...."
Christians believe Bible = devinely inspired. Therefore we consider the apocryphle testaments either wrong or not well supported.
Teachings of Jesus = anything that he said as recorded in the Bible
EDIT Technical reasons? Itty bitty technical reasons like Homosexuality is an abomination before God? So bad was it that homosexuals were supposed to be stoned by the Jews, killed before their evil could spread? That itty bitty technical reason?
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 7 2003, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 7 2003, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Christians believe Bible = devinely inspired. Therefore we consider the apocryphle testaments either wrong or not well supported.
Teachings of Jesus = anything that he said as recorded in the Bible <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unsolicited parchment scrolls The curse of Europe anno 100 AD <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But we cannot be sure if the bible is really what Jesus said. Or if the bible elipses some things, can we? Im pretty sure no god has written the bible. IT was done by the hand of men. So someone chose what had to be put in there and what couldn't go in there. To put unquestioning faith in the new and the old testament is blue eyed at best. Jolly (you know, rhymes with bay) or straight, I do not care really. I am much more concerned about the aspects of the christian faith that extolls compassion and sacrifice. That two nurses travel from Norway to India and live there for 50 years fighting to save poverty striken children and women from dying. Had they been a jolly couple would that have blemished their sacrifice and compassion?
They seem to be forgotten in favour of witch hunts. "Let's chase those that are different than us, because we are small people with narrow minds and no respect or love of diversity". To me, it is a sign of insecurity and fear of something.
As Nem said further back - this discussion has reached a moot point. It is between people who believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and those who dont. You fall into the dont category, I fall into the do category. So all that is left now is to debate the accuracy of the Bible, which is classifed hijacking.
So I guess we need a new thread.
BTW Written by the hands of men yes, but Devinely inspired. Meaning that God gave them the words to write. Meaning that he wouldnt let them make a mistake. Be skeptical if you will, but thats the claim, Christianities the game.
Im not sure we would get very far. We will argue from different dogmatic standpoints and thus be doomed to an endless discussion that is unresolveable by nature.
Ehehehehe I know, I'm having a laugh. Thats what the <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> is for. It was an irony thing. I was agreeing that we would never agree in a different thread, and then suggesting that he simply accept my arguement as better. Why? There is no logical answer..
Ahhhh humour explained is humour destroyed. I gather you understood already what I was trying to do or you would have nuked me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is impossible for Jesus to make statements about the Bible, because, get this, it didn't exist during his lifetimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, and every good little jew boy could quote pretty much all of it off by heart. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he didnt die, so the rest of the bible was written while he was alive too. The first few chapters of the Revelation is Jesus' direct message to seven churches - he said it and john wrote it down.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 7 2003, 02:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 7 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is impossible for Jesus to make statements about the Bible, because, get this, it didn't exist during his lifetimes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm. In that case he would have been but a frisky glint in the eyes of his father?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
What I find interesting about this whole debate, is that not a single one of my jewish friends has the slightest problem with homosexuality, and it seems we've pretty well concluded that the religious argument against it doesn't stem from jesus, so what gives?
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Sep 7 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Sep 7 2003, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 7 2003, 02:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 7 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 7 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is impossible for Jesus to make statements about the Bible, because, get this, it didn't exist during his lifetimes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm. In that case he would have been but a frisky glint in the eyes of his father? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> why would he have been that?
he, like God, is perfect and unchanging (because he is God)
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Sep 7 2003, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Sep 7 2003, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But he is also man. I mean, he was a baby at one point, and then grew up, right? That sounds like it involved change. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> when he came to earth, He was still 100% God (that part didnt change) yet he was also 100% man, so he <b>had</b> to be born as a baby and grow up, just like any other man. His body changed, but that wasnt the real him. the real him was just as perfect as ever
We should stick to discussing what we know, what is written in The Bible. What God is and what Jesus was is beyond us. We can only believe, not inellectualize, our idea of God/Jesus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We should stick to discussing what we know, what is written in The Bible. What God is and what Jesus was is beyond us. We can only believe, not inellectualize, our idea of God/ Jesus.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Much of God's nature is mysterious, but much is also revealed. He is <i>logos</i>, and we're created in His image. There's no need to downplay our intellect when it comes to understanding God.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Sep 7 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Sep 7 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I find interesting about this whole debate, is that not a single one of my jewish friends has the slightest problem with homosexuality, and it seems we've pretty well concluded that the religious argument against it doesn't stem from jesus, so what gives? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because you are Jewish doesnt mean you follow the Bible/its important to you.
Thats like someone coming up to you and saying "Hi, I'm Iranian." You reply "Oh, you're a muslim then". Not neccissarily (argh spelling). Some Jews have abandoned their religion, and thus would have absolutely no problem with homosexuals.
If you want to see Jews having a problem with homosexuals, there was a segment on TV earlier this year about the first "**** Pride" march in Israel. And the IDF had to protect the marchers from just about the entire population, who felt it was their moral and God -given duty to stone these people.
We HAVE NOT concluded that Jesus had nothing against homosexuals. He condemned sexual immorality to a JEWISH AUDIENCE. The same as if I told you I condemned murder. Do I then have to go and spell out every way of killing someone possible? Does that mean that because I dont specifically mention murder with a plastic spoon that I have no problem with murder using a plastic spoon?
NO. We all know what I'm talking about when I say murder, I do NOT need to qualify my statement down to the ground. Jesus was talking to Jews, who take their Laws incredibly seriously, and know them inside out. When he condemned sexual immorality, there was no way that homosexuality could have escaped his blanket condemnation.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 8 2003, 03:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 8 2003, 03:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because you are Jewish doesnt mean you follow the Bible/its important to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually the people I was referring to are religiously jewish in addition to being ethnically jewish. (One of them isn't even ethnically jewish, but is still a jew by religion)
Well in that case all the religiously Jewish people you know must be liberal Jews. Maybe they take the attitude of many religious people on this board - "Well there are some rules I like, some I dont, so I guess I'll pick the ones I like and obviously the rest dont apply to me".
That sort of behavoir is condoned by christianity (i know we are talking about judaism, but, what the hey) Jesus clearly states that you are either for or against, no sitting on the fence.
Comments
Doesnt sit right with you Wheeee? Me neither. Having spent my whole life in the church I know what constitutes a Christian and what doesnt. But I simply cannot go around claiming that someone else who claims they are a Christian isnt. I can be HIGHLY skeptical, but I cant prove them wrong.
Christian: "One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus."
Professes: "To affirm openly; declare or claim"
Belief: "The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another"
Definition of Christianity. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Question is, what is the teachings of Jesus? Those letter that Paul the Spammer wrote to the corinthians and all other proto-christians who couldn't figure out how to unsubscribe? Or the apocryphical testaments that you probably never heard of?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven--Matthew 5:18-19 RSV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, this means all old testament laws still apply (which means that all christions should still eat kosher and all that, which they do not) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that, in turn, probably was a bit of a headache when they had to proselytize to the pig eaters of the world. After having their first 500 missionaries quartered and stoned to death they said "Allright, strike out the kosher food". Christanity is a long log file of "adaption". Isn't it quaint that Saint Hans Eve is celebrated on the same day as Summer Solstice where I live, that was celebrated back when we were living to norse mythology? And it is odd that we celebrate Christmas Eve a mere few days after Winter Solstice. The True, Real Christian holidy, Passover, isnt' much of a deal around here. Just a nice chance to get some days off and start the garden work. That is how christianity was "made culturally appropriate" for my region of the world. Who knows what other countless adaptions that has taken place during the last 2000 years, including the current homophobia.
There is a problem on those religious people, no matter their convictions, who puts rules and dogma higher than the spirituality, including those who want to deny LGCM their christianity on "technical reasons".
"WTH, I keep blocking him but hes using multiple addys...."
Christians believe Bible = devinely inspired. Therefore we consider the apocryphle testaments either wrong or not well supported.
Teachings of Jesus = anything that he said as recorded in the Bible
EDIT Technical reasons? Itty bitty technical reasons like Homosexuality is an abomination before God? So bad was it that homosexuals were supposed to be stoned by the Jews, killed before their evil could spread? That itty bitty technical reason?
Teachings of Jesus = anything that he said as recorded in the Bible <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unsolicited parchment scrolls The curse of Europe anno 100 AD <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But we cannot be sure if the bible is really what Jesus said. Or if the bible elipses some things, can we? Im pretty sure no god has written the bible. IT was done by the hand of men. So someone chose what had to be put in there and what couldn't go in there. To put unquestioning faith in the new and the old testament is blue eyed at best. Jolly (you know, rhymes with bay) or straight, I do not care really. I am much more concerned about the aspects of the christian faith that extolls compassion and sacrifice. That two nurses travel from Norway to India and live there for 50 years fighting to save poverty striken children and women from dying. Had they been a jolly couple would that have blemished their sacrifice and compassion?
They seem to be forgotten in favour of witch hunts. "Let's chase those that are different than us, because we are small people with narrow minds and no respect or love of diversity". To me, it is a sign of insecurity and fear of something.
So I guess we need a new thread.
BTW Written by the hands of men yes, but Devinely inspired. Meaning that God gave them the words to write. Meaning that he wouldnt let them make a mistake. Be skeptical if you will, but thats the claim, Christianities the game.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But then, xdeath would have 'lost' quite a while back, in that case.
Ahhhh humour explained is humour destroyed. I gather you understood already what I was trying to do or you would have nuked me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, and every good little jew boy could quote pretty much all of it off by heart. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he didnt die, so the rest of the bible was written while he was alive too. The first few chapters of the Revelation is Jesus' direct message to seven churches - he said it and john wrote it down.
It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm. In that case he would have been but a frisky glint in the eyes of his father?
It did. two of the gospels were written by people who were actually there - Matthew and John. The old testament was around before Jesus came to earth, but he existed in heaven then, so he was around when it was written, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm. In that case he would have been but a frisky glint in the eyes of his father? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
why would he have been that?
he, like God, is perfect and unchanging (because he is God)
<a href='http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html' target='_blank'>http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html</a>
<a href='http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html' target='_blank'>http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra...radictions.html</a>
<a href='http://www.bible-contradictions.net/' target='_blank'>http://www.bible-contradictions.net/</a>
Pro-Bible Links:
<a href='http://answering-islam.org.uk/Bible/Contra/' target='_blank'>http://answering-islam.org.uk/Bible/Contra/</a>
<a href='http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm</a>
when he came to earth, He was still 100% God (that part didnt change) yet he was also 100% man, so he <b>had</b> to be born as a baby and grow up, just like any other man. His body changed, but that wasnt the real him. the real him was just as perfect as ever
Much of God's nature is mysterious, but much is also revealed. He is <i>logos</i>, and we're created in His image. There's no need to downplay our intellect when it comes to understanding God.
Just because you are Jewish doesnt mean you follow the Bible/its important to you.
Thats like someone coming up to you and saying "Hi, I'm Iranian." You reply "Oh, you're a muslim then". Not neccissarily (argh spelling). Some Jews have abandoned their religion, and thus would have absolutely no problem with homosexuals.
If you want to see Jews having a problem with homosexuals, there was a segment on TV earlier this year about the first "**** Pride" march in Israel. And the IDF had to protect the marchers from just about the entire population, who felt it was their moral and God -given duty to stone these people.
We HAVE NOT concluded that Jesus had nothing against homosexuals. He condemned sexual immorality to a JEWISH AUDIENCE. The same as if I told you I condemned murder. Do I then have to go and spell out every way of killing someone possible? Does that mean that because I dont specifically mention murder with a plastic spoon that I have no problem with murder using a plastic spoon?
NO. We all know what I'm talking about when I say murder, I do NOT need to qualify my statement down to the ground. Jesus was talking to Jews, who take their Laws incredibly seriously, and know them inside out. When he condemned sexual immorality, there was no way that homosexuality could have escaped his blanket condemnation.
Actually the people I was referring to are religiously jewish in addition to being ethnically jewish. (One of them isn't even ethnically jewish, but is still a jew by religion)