The only form of government that works as intended is a dictorship. All other systems have deep problems at their core and dictorships work out poorly as intended.
<!--QuoteBegin--Anti-Bomb+Sep 6 2003, 12:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anti-Bomb @ Sep 6 2003, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The people should own the state, Karl Marx believed there shouldnt even be a state, the word "Soviet" means "Worker's Council," which is a place in which workers and farmers get together and work out everything democratically. Then they elect a representative (who can be called back at any time if he goes bad) to represent them in a larger Soviet until you get to the biggest one, where national decisions are made and everyone is represented in the worker's state. there are no parasites (oops i meant politicians) who make their career off of conning the workers, the leaders are workers who represent their people for a month or so and then go back to the factory. If the USSR hadn't been invaded by every capitalist country in the world, this would have prevailed. Unfortunately the capitalists saw the threat and tried to strangle the USSR in its infancy.
Emergency measures----bureaucracy, less democracy--were taken, and with these, opportunists took over the USSR, killing every good Communist they could get their hands on, and they used the world communist movement (which they unfortunately still controlled) as a bargaining chip with capitalist governments.
You say that, since you are well off under capitalism, you must like it. This is a sellout's way to think. The democratic philosophers that you mentioned were often persecuted in their times, when they could have "gone along with it" and gotten rewards, but instead they were willing to stand up for their beliefs. So don't try and defend them and yourself at the same time, if our world is the "perfect society" as you seem to say, then I might as well shoot myself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ....and then the workers realize "Why the hell should I do anything? It isn't going to get me anywhere" and they get lazy and irritated and everything falls apart. Even without the oppression, the communist state would fail economically. Communism attracts corruption, it breeds oppression, and it is a road to nowhere. Even Tito, the leader of Yugoslavia, knew this and that's why he gave citizens the right to ownership. The only reason he was a communist because he thought he could unite the southern slavic races and he failed horribly. And the other communist states were doomed to failure the second they started. Lenin himself was seeking reform before he died because he knew the Soviet economy would fail.
You completely missed the point, the workers do have the power, to make national decisions and how to make their lives and the lives of their family and friends better. How does it breed opression when there are no leaders? Why would there be oppression if social classes are a thing of the past? You are just reading out of your global textbook. Lenin just allowed small buisnesses to help the Soviet Economy improve so it would gain enough money in times of trouble but that was only temporary it wasn't any kind of reform. How did the Soviet Union take all those small poor nations and turn it into a world super power? You think you have alot of freedom in a capitalist system, the corporations are stealing your hard earned money. You haven't listened to anything I've said and your best argument so far is that a I'm angry communist teenager dolt/hateful of the environment around me. I prefer political debates to **** matches, I will not listen to you anymore.
I think my favorite part was when Strangelove goes "Yes My fuhrer. I mean, President." Also the part at the end where they're talking about living in the caves to survive but what if the commies are planning on clubbing them the moment they come out of the caves and etc. That was great.
And as far as hidden sexual undertones, I think you guys are just perverts. Precious bodily fluids = flordie in the drinking water. :P
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Absolutely one of the greatest movies ever. I do the best Gen. Turgison impression. Once in a while I'll just start yelling at people about the "Big Board". And everyone knows the best quote is <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well he went a little funny in the head....oh, you know, just a little.......funny, and ah...he went and did a silly thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole phone call to Dimitri is just classic.
As for the meaning, it's really just a commentary on the current military mood at the time. It's an anti-military movie, neither pro-communist or pro-capitalist, it's just pro-not-blowing-up-the-world. The whole Bat Guano and Coca-Cola company does rag on the US' corporate mentality a little, but it's still more of a movie about the military and how the basic concept of MAD and indeed the entire military itself is inherently flawed.
But I suppose I'd have to read the book to really get the message. I'm suprised I havn't yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--Anti-Bomb+Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anti-Bomb @ Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ya except there was never a system of communism. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I live in poverty and my family together makes around 100,000 a year. We are so cheap. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Sep 7 2003, 02:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Sep 7 2003, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Anti-Bomb+Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anti-Bomb @ Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ya except there was never a system of communism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's mostly due to the fact that capitalist countries inteference before they get to bloom, and totalitarian dictators like Stalin, and Pol Pot who claim to be communist so they aren't seen as paranoid dictators that purje entire countries of 'counter revolutionaries'.
<!--QuoteBegin--Anti-Bomb+Sep 7 2003, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anti-Bomb @ Sep 7 2003, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Sep 7 2003, 02:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Sep 7 2003, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Anti-Bomb+Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anti-Bomb @ Sep 6 2003, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ya except there was never a system of communism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's mostly due to the fact that capitalist countries inteference before they get to bloom, and totalitarian dictators like Stalin, and Pol Pot who claim to be communist so they aren't seen as paranoid dictators that purje entire countries of 'counter revolutionaries'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could be argued though, that as in just about every instance of "Communism" there has been a Stalin or a Pol Pot , communism is a system in which it is far to easy for those totalitarian dicators to come to power. IF that is the case then it would stand to reason that in any instance where communism exsists, eventualy a dictator will come to power.
Futhermore, once a dictator the likes of Stalin comes to power, their effect of the structure of goverment lingers for years and years. Even after Khrushchev denouced Stalin as a murderer in a speach at the Twentieth Party Congress, in 1956, he went on to destroy the Hungarian and Novocherkassk worker uprisings and built the Berlin Wall. Not to mention the fact that the KGB remained an instrument of political terror and repression until the fall of the Soviet state. To me this indicates that once a dictatorship has been established in a communist country, the country will probably continue to abuse its power and its citizens until it is overthrown. Even in China, where massive improvements in civil rights have happened there are still untold numbers of political prisoners being tortured and rotting in jails.
In short, it seems based upon all the data we have of attmepts of implementing communism, it is a system to easy to corruptand for immoral men to gain power. On paper it may look good to you, but in the real world it jsut doesn't work
That wasn't the point in the Soviet Union the Bolsheviks were dedicated to the cause and would create a leaderless country where decisions are made by Soviets (my other post explained what that is) but during the Russian civil war 16 countries sent in forces including Germany, Japan, Poland, and America to help the Whites win. So it was basically Bolsheviks Vs. The world. Stalin purjed the old revolutionaries, that was assuring that the Soviet Union would not become a true communist nation.
And no government has been designed with this in account. They've tried, (checks and balances and whatnot) but it's only marginally successful...
It just goes to show that all governments look great on paper, but only if you have good people to run it. And unfortunately thats the exception rather than the rule
Comments
Emergency measures----bureaucracy, less democracy--were taken, and with these, opportunists took over the USSR, killing every good Communist they could get their hands on, and they used the world communist movement (which they unfortunately still controlled) as a bargaining chip with capitalist governments.
You say that, since you are well off under capitalism, you must like it. This is a sellout's way to think. The democratic philosophers that you mentioned were often persecuted in their times, when they could have "gone along with it" and gotten rewards, but instead they were willing to stand up for their beliefs. So don't try and defend them and yourself at the same time, if our world is the "perfect society" as you seem to say, then I might as well shoot myself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
....and then the workers realize "Why the hell should I do anything? It isn't going to get me anywhere" and they get lazy and irritated and everything falls apart. Even without the oppression, the communist state would fail economically. Communism attracts corruption, it breeds oppression, and it is a road to nowhere. Even Tito, the leader of Yugoslavia, knew this and that's why he gave citizens the right to ownership. The only reason he was a communist because he thought he could unite the southern slavic races and he failed horribly. And the other communist states were doomed to failure the second they started. Lenin himself was seeking reform before he died because he knew the Soviet economy would fail.
Democracy + Somewhat Regulated Capitalism = Win
I love Dr. Strangelove. :D
I think my favorite part was when Strangelove goes "Yes My fuhrer. I mean, President." Also the part at the end where they're talking about living in the caves to survive but what if the commies are planning on clubbing them the moment they come out of the caves and etc. That was great.
And as far as hidden sexual undertones, I think you guys are just perverts. Precious bodily fluids = flordie in the drinking water. :P
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well he went a little funny in the head....oh, you know, just a little.......funny, and ah...he went and did a silly thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole phone call to Dimitri is just classic.
As for the meaning, it's really just a commentary on the current military mood at the time. It's an anti-military movie, neither pro-communist or pro-capitalist, it's just pro-not-blowing-up-the-world. The whole Bat Guano and Coca-Cola company does rag on the US' corporate mentality a little, but it's still more of a movie about the military and how the basic concept of MAD and indeed the entire military itself is inherently flawed.
But I suppose I'd have to read the book to really get the message. I'm suprised I havn't yet.
The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
1 in six american children live in poverty, go go gaget capitalism!
The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's mostly due to the fact that capitalist countries inteference before they get to bloom, and totalitarian dictators like Stalin, and Pol Pot who claim to be communist so they aren't seen as paranoid dictators that purje entire countries of 'counter revolutionaries'.
The fact that nobody has ever been able to implement a true communist state suggests to me that the idea itself might be a bit flawed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's mostly due to the fact that capitalist countries inteference before they get to bloom, and totalitarian dictators like Stalin, and Pol Pot who claim to be communist so they aren't seen as paranoid dictators that purje entire countries of 'counter revolutionaries'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could be argued though, that as in just about every instance of "Communism" there has been a Stalin or a Pol Pot , communism is a system in which it is far to easy for those totalitarian dicators to come to power. IF that is the case then it would stand to reason that in any instance where communism exsists, eventualy a dictator will come to power.
Futhermore, once a dictator the likes of Stalin comes to power, their effect of the structure of goverment lingers for years and years. Even after Khrushchev denouced Stalin as a murderer in a speach at the Twentieth Party Congress, in 1956, he went on to destroy the Hungarian and Novocherkassk worker uprisings and built the Berlin Wall. Not to mention the fact that the KGB remained an instrument of political terror and repression until the fall of the Soviet state. To me this indicates that once a dictatorship has been established in a communist country, the country will probably continue to abuse its power and its citizens until it is overthrown. Even in China, where massive improvements in civil rights have happened there are still untold numbers of political prisoners being tortured and rotting in jails.
In short, it seems based upon all the data we have of attmepts of implementing communism, it is a system to easy to corruptand for immoral men to gain power. On paper it may look good to you, but in the real world it jsut doesn't work
And no government has been designed with this in account. They've tried, (checks and balances and whatnot) but it's only marginally successful...
It just goes to show that all governments look great on paper, but only if you have good people to run it. And unfortunately thats the exception rather than the rule