maybe but AvP is still noticably different from NS... sure there's lots and lots of similarities but the thing with White Wolf's World of Darkness (or whatever) and this film is kinda hard to <b>not</b> see =P
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
no smoke, that aint how it works
first up you coulda read my post for a niece quick 'here are some of WWs posts'
next up, the notion of copywright and intelectual material. VERY VERY grey area of the law. However it is fairly clear that if you take some ones ideas and simply switch names around then it is wrong
forinstance, if Flay ussed cheastbursters for skulks, normal aliens for fades etc etc then there would be serious problems. But Flay was VERY smart about these (he actualy made sure to own the copywrights to all of his stuff)
again, I know alot of WoD players and upon first seeing trailers they were like 'cool a WoD movie, sweet. Probably will tank like the TV show <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->'
look, smoke you are ussing Reductio Ad Absurdum (bascaly taking the hole in the argument and blowing it out of proportion, ie no facts just emotion and personal beliefe that 'lawsuits are for loosers')
but what ever, trying to change your mind is silly seeing how as you refuse to look at fact.
no, i'm just in a bad mood. That and you keep on asking us to read a 64 page legal document. its 64 pages of LEGAL stuff. I can barely read 20 pages of history homework and that's intresting stuff.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I have to say, the first thing I thought was "they've ripped the whole V:TM universe off" when I saw the trailer.
Personally, I'd like to see a vampire movie where everyone didn't dress up like goths.
Given that there are no fat vampires, at least in movies, I don't see the whole prediliction for black. After all, it's only going to highlight their pale complexions. They should go for warmer colours. Perhaps a nice taupe.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--SmokeNova+Sep 8 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Sep 8 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, i'm just in a bad mood. That and you keep on asking us to read a 64 page legal document. its 64 pages of LEGAL stuff. I can barely read 20 pages of history homework and that's intresting stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> just go through and read some of the points of contention. Skip all the legalese. They start out very general and get more specific as it goes on. Most of them don't seem all that big on their own, but often several of them together describe scenes that are identical between the book and the movie. As near as I could tell, virtually everything about the organization of the two species is the same, as well as every key point of the plot.
I think I'm sort of on both sides. If you actually read it, there are billions of comparisons it has, EXACT ones to what they made.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't quite see how they're claiming to have invented vampires and werewolves... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They aren't. They're claiming to have invented a lot of the storyline in Underworld, though. Geez.
Oh, I'm definently going to see that movie. Something awesome about gunning the floor below you in a circle to drop down the lower level to blast apart more.
There is more than some passing similarites. I don't like Vtm but I do like Wta. Also a werewolf lover of a vampire is a betrayer of Gaia and a tool of Wyrm and therefore a member of the Black Spiral Dancers and must be killed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hida Tsuzua+Sep 8 2003, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hida Tsuzua @ Sep 8 2003, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is more than some passing similarites. I don't like Vtm but I do like Wta. Also a werewolf lover of a vampire is a betrayer of Gaia and a tool of Wyrm and therefore a member of the Black Spiral Dancers and must be killed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a whoseit with a what what?
<!--QuoteBegin--Pjofsky+Sep 9 2003, 12:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pjofsky @ Sep 9 2003, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't quite see how they're claiming to have invented vampires and werewolves... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They aren't. They're claiming to have invented a lot of the storyline in Underworld, though. Geez. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case, that PA comic has kind of missed the point, hasn't it? Or am I confused about something here?
<!--QuoteBegin--Hida Tsuzua+Sep 8 2003, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hida Tsuzua @ Sep 8 2003, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is more than some passing similarites. I don't like Vtm but I do like Wta. Also a werewolf lover of a vampire is a betrayer of Gaia and a tool of Wyrm and therefore a member of the Black Spiral Dancers and must be killed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> amen to that, and the more I think about the more I tend to lean twoard this movie being a rip off.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Sep 9 2003, 01:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Sep 9 2003, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In that case, that PA comic has kind of missed the point, hasn't it? Or am I confused about something here? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it did, but I think comics in general are supposed to simplify things enough that they **** people off. It's frustrating to me that so many people will be using that comic and posts like doom's as their sole source of information about this though.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Sep 9 2003, 08:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Sep 9 2003, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Sep 9 2003, 01:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Sep 9 2003, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In that case, that PA comic has kind of missed the point, hasn't it? Or am I confused about something here? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it did, but I think comics in general are supposed to simplify things enough that they **** people off. It's frustrating to me that so many people will be using that comic and posts like doom's as their sole source of information about this though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't trying to. It's just that PA is usually very, very accurate...
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Ok, here's my interpretation of these events, in the form of a goofy HL-related analogy.
Let's say we havef someone who makes a game. Just some generic company, nothing specific. In it, you play the role of a scientist who must fight his way out of an alien-infested research facility after a major disaster. The player character's name is Barney Freeman or Gordon Bennet or something like that. So then this other company, some "Valve Software" chaps, see this and say, "hey, wait a minute..." and file suit for copyright infringement - and with good reason.
Then, at some point, someone in some forum makes a post about it and starts talking about how Valve is claiming they invented the first person shooter. In the following posts, people simply read the title and jump on the "corporate = bad" bandwagon, claiming it's ridiculous, stupid, greedy, etc. etc. Obviously Valve didn't invent the first person shooter, so their argument is worthless... but that's not the argument! The argument is that Valve's own design based upon the first person shooter was directly mimicked for profit gains.
Same applies here. The company is not claiming they invented vampires, but that the new Underworld movie directly lifts concepts and characters (and the like) from White Wolf's existing <i>interpretations</i> of the vampire theme. It's not about who made the vampire, it's about who's doing what -with- the vampire. And that could really have been phrased better.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Sep 8 2003, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Sep 8 2003, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think they are justified in suing under american copyright law. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats the problem with your country. You people love to SUE your fellow man.
"OWWWEEE <u><b>I</b></u> split HOT (like it says on the cup) coffee on my lap, I guess I will SUE someone because the coffee wasn't cold and it only said "careful hot", like 4 times on the cup.. should have said it 5" "I was breaking into this guys house to kill him, he surprised me and stabbed me in the leg, I sued him for 500 grand and he went to jail" "The tabloids said I use to weigh 500 lbs, I guess I will sue them for printing lie in theie "totally true" magazine. "You painted your car the same colour as my car.. I am gonna sue you" "You gave birth to a boy... I DID THAT FIRST, I'm GONNA SUE!" Where does it end?
I don't think they infringed on copysrights, yes they have a similar scheem, but come on, if you look at half the moives out there you could say, "They stole that idea from..."
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 9 2003, 09:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 9 2003, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "OWWWEEE <u><b>I</b></u> split HOT (like it says on the cup) coffee on my lap, I guess I will SUE someone because the coffee wasn't cold and it only said "careful hot", like 4 times on the cup.. should have said it 5" "I was breaking into this guys house to kill him, he surprised me and stabbed me in the leg, I sued him for 500 grand and he went to jail" "The tabloids said I use to weigh 500 lbs, I guess I will sue them for printing lie in theie "totally true" magazine. "You painted your car the same colour as my car.. I am gonna sue you" "You gave birth to a boy... I DID THAT FIRST, I'm GONNA SUE!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And not <i>one</i> of those ridiculous examples applies here. In fact, only one of those is a case you'd even see - the coffee cup example - and that was because the cups -didn't- say "Caution: Hot" prior to that lawsuit. One woman's greedy exploitation of a legal loophole doesn't make it representative of the entire nation.
I'm not going to defend the practices of some people's stupid and utterly moronic legal actions in this country, but I see White Wolf's case as perfectly justified.
There's a -<b>huge</b>- difference between making a movie with a similar scheme and making a movie with a near identical plot, shared characters, etc. etc.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited September 2003
ahh, and KFS enters the fray
1) as KFS pointed out, those cups only say 'caution: Hot' cuss of that lawsuit (gg majin, you just proved why she sued <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) 2) ok, you can list probably around 200 of these 'stupid' lawsuits (asssuming you do ALOT of research) soooo 280mill - 200 = 279mill(we will just chunk off that HUGE portion for sake of nice ROUND numbers <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) so all americans are stupid? right? Ty
now back onto the topic of THIS lawsuit, and not america bashing (ty haveagoodday)
ok, basic stronger points: 65 66 68 75 76 79 86 87 100-116 (laying out how close the book at the movie are)
there jsut scan over those few points and you will start to see where their base comes from.
It is very hard to actualy see the problems unless you are already familiar with a few vampire works (WWs, Ane Rice, Dracual ect). WW has ussed ideas from many of these places, and Sony will probably claim they siply got insperation from similar sources. The problem being is that their 'inspired' ideas lie WAY to close to specifics from WoD.
honestly I have never heard of Abominations (werewolf embraced by a vamp) any where other then WoD (if any one else knows one pls tell me, I am curious)
so yah, no 65pgs just a few points <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and a few other things: 1) you can ignore everything after pg 20 and before pg 8 (thats where the point for point stuf starts and ends) 2) It took them this long b/c every thing HAS to be done up in 'legalease' (65 pgs of that is ALOT), it has to be that ong b/c the MUST include every single point they are making (not just the comparisons but also the legal points) in it before it is released. Again that takes alot of ground wrok and typing.
"honestly I have never heard of Abominations (werewolf embraced by a vamp) any where other then WoD (if any one else knows one pls tell me, I am curious)"
The Real Ghostbusters, episode where vampires and werewolves are ripping into each other "No One Comes to Lupusville" - you see hybrid vampire/werewolves.
Howling VI: The Freaks? I guess you missed it. As well as the vampire vs werewolf theme, the climax has one character attacked by both.
TY and GG.
Incidentally the Ghostbusters ep was written by J. Michael Straczynski, funnily enough. Second, what do you think would happen if a werewolf was bitten by a vampire, or vice versa?
Regardless of ploughing through the legal document, IMHO I'll hold out for the film, so I can judge for myself.
Yeah, seems as though they've done some plagiarizing. Although, some of the points given against Sony are a bit weak, such as, well, most of the points! Many of the points could also be taken from Bram Stoker's Dracula.
Point 83: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives.
Wow. Wow wow wow. A story set in the the present (or future, I can't tell) and they use the weapons of that period in time. You could knock me over with a stiff wind right now. Ever play the Legacy of Kain series? Do you know that they use swords in that game? Do you know why they don't use guns? BECAUSE IT'S NOT SET IN A TIME PERIOD THAT HAS GUNS! Duh! I mean, come on... would it make sense to have a bunch of people running around carrying spears and clubs in a time period that has rocket launchers? No.
Point 84: In the World of Darkness, the vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting werewolves. In Underworld, the vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting werewolves.
Stargate SG-1 spoke of reversing polarity to fix problems. Star Trek: The Next Generation always had Geordi speaking of reversing polarities to fix problems. Does this mean that they copied each other? No! Can you really 'copy' scientific terms? Does anyone have a copyright to such things? I think that's stretching it. Clive Barker's Undying featured silver bullets that were more powerful than normal bullets. Now, the "Nitrate" part is a bit strange, but the fact that they used silver bullets is not something that World of Darkness invented. That's silly.
Point 85: "In the World of Darkness, the background setting is very dark, described as gothic/punk. In Underworld, the background setting is very dark, with a combination of gothic and punk attire, settings, and people.
I would attribute that more to The Matrix, and not World of Darkness. The movie gave me a feeling of "The Matrix: Resurrected".
Point 89: In the World of Darkness, vampires cast reflections. In Underworld, vampires cast reflections.
One very long word: HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAH.
Point 90: In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option.
Now it's what they DON'T say that's a problem? Can they win here?
Point 91: In the World of Darkness, most vampires cannot change into other shapes, like bats or mist, unless they are very old and powerful. In Underworld, no vampires change into other forms, but the last remaining Elder is hanging upside down in his crypt and is described as bat like.
That's very weak. Dracula could turn into a bat. Why isn't that wrong?
Point 95: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires can kill each other with their teeth and claws.
Who'da thunk? Perhaps it's the fact that teeth and claws are NATURAL weapons?
Point 97: In the World of Darkness, silver weapons harm werewolves. In Underworld, silver weapons harm werewolves.
Please see previous post about Clive Barker's: Undying. Okay, I'll reiterate. Silver bullets have always been considered powerful against the 'spooky.' It's not suprising that they're used here.
There are probably other points, but I won't go any further. The case has some valid points, and Sony has some schplaining to do, but most points brought forth aren't that impressive.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Med, you argued our own point
yes, alot of it is silly
think about it this way, you wana make a wod box, you need a hammer, nails, and some pieces of wood (or what ever suplies you want)
the silly ones are just getting said suplies. The real ones are the ones that show full out problems.
also on a few notes: 1) Silver Nitrate, I believe it has silver in it, but the other neeat factor is that it burns (some thing that deals agg dmg to vamps <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> hehe, yes I am a gammer <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) (this is just to explain more than anytihng, oh and this is quasi science not real science, it dosn't actualy 'burn' like that) 2) In the World of Darkness, vampires cast reflections. In Underworld, vampires cast reflections. -Most vamp myths have vamps casting no relfections 3) In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option. -most vamp myths again have the main meathod of killing a vamp being the good ol stake through the heart. The factor that they didn't mention this is underworld meens that they purposfuly ignored that section of most myths (this is actualy stoled from ane rice as I remember <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
I was going to comment on Silver nitrate and such.....
But I was waiting for someone to quote me shooting down the "abomination" intellectual property, then saw PWNED for my excellent use of nerd knowledge.
Anyhow...
Silver nitrate is used as a pesticide, as I recall, so its available in large quantities for low cost. With a legitimate greenhouse front, noone would ask any questions. Mixed with certain compounds it becomes explosive, and its also water soluble, so should it penetrate the skin it'd do mad damage to any potential undead.
"-Most vamp myths have vamps casting no relfections"
Most are not all. In fact its doubtful to say most -I'd agree that vampirism as it became known under the christian doctrine would involve this. However, vampires of other cultures do not mention this flaw.
Mirrors are linked with souls, yes, but the actual absence of a reflection being related to a vampire was not made until, AFAIK, Stoker wrote Dracula. And he added the line on a whim.
"3) In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires."
Also the case in most myths. Generally it involved a weapon of purest silver (generally potent against foul creatures), or iron, struck once through the heart, or a beheading. Furthermore, Indian vampires must ONLY be struck once - further damage will be healed.
In fact, to be truly technical some western myths have the vampire as absolutely immortal - impaling it, decapitating it, stuffing mouth and throat with garlic and burning the body to a fine ash before scattering it in a fast flowing river would only stop it from coming back so quickly. But it WOULD come back.
"most vamp myths again have the main meathod of killing a vamp being the good ol stake through the heart."
Western only. Beheading was popular, burning, a single fatal blow with any weapon. In cultures where vampires could not be killed, immobilisation of the body was the next best thing - such as building cairns, impalement in the earth, scattering flowers, or performing an exorcism.
The vampire mythos is a hell of a bit bigger and older than the modern descendents of Stoker's Dracula.
For a gamer I'd expect you to know this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Anne Rice Vampires (Lestat, Marius, Akasha, Mael, Avicus, Pandora, Maharet, Gabrielle, Armand, Children of the Millennia) couldn't be killed by conventional means. Mael had his head lopped off by a Roman Centurion. The blood that gushed out pulled the head back and re-attached it. Marius wore a PURE SILVER crucifix. Lestat was burned to a nice crispy coating, and 'lo and behold, he comes back. The only sure fire way to kill an Anne Rice style vampire is to burn the heart or to leave out in sunlight.
Some of the WW points are stupid, but some might be legitimate. Honestly, if White Wolf is worried about copyright infringement, why not just get Sony to give them a certain % of the profits instead of suing for a set amount?
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
umm, dono actualy
there is probably a good reason to sue for a set amount in this case (though I aint positive, mabey they expect it to bomb or something)
again, yes I know there are many other myth involving vampires, however the ones that most people know aobut are good old dracula and his many variants.
I am not even going to bother with nonwestern ideas (cuss then yu get in to goat sucking and thats just plain wierd <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) Also, most people are not very knowledgable about other vamp myths. Now, if Sony claims to have NEVER even HEARD of WW (as they did <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) then I sorta doubt they could have even heard on any other non normal vamp myths (comn, put vampire or werewolf into google <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
again, I am not arguing that WW is RIGHT, I am simply arguing that they have a case and that PA (yet again) spued some stupid stuff and every one just bought it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (no I realy don't like PA).
I am personaly with holding judgment till I see the movie (and I WILL see that movie, as many have pointed out... leather clad chick with guns GO US! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) When I see it and I get a feel for it I will lay down my judgment (not that it realy meens squat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). If I come out thinking, wow that was a cool WoD movie then thats where I stand <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (again I hate both WoD and Sony <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
The western vampire mythos might be the most well known but that does not mean it MUST be used. I would imagine that (as for many other vampire films) the creators have looked at the whole spectrum of myths in order to make a creative story.
As for the suit, to HONESTLY make a balanced judgement on it, you would need to read the WW novel that is cited, see the uncut film, and address each component of the lawsuit one by one.
Doing anything other than that will result in conjecture.
Comments
first up you coulda read my post for a niece quick 'here are some of WWs posts'
next up, the notion of copywright and intelectual material. VERY VERY grey area of the law. However it is fairly clear that if you take some ones ideas and simply switch names around then it is wrong
forinstance, if Flay ussed cheastbursters for skulks, normal aliens for fades etc etc then there would be serious problems. But Flay was VERY smart about these (he actualy made sure to own the copywrights to all of his stuff)
again, I know alot of WoD players and upon first seeing trailers they were like 'cool a WoD movie, sweet. Probably will tank like the TV show <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->'
look, smoke you are ussing Reductio Ad Absurdum (bascaly taking the hole in the argument and blowing it out of proportion, ie no facts just emotion and personal beliefe that 'lawsuits are for loosers')
but what ever, trying to change your mind is silly seeing how as you refuse to look at fact.
Personally, I'd like to see a vampire movie where everyone didn't dress up like goths.
Given that there are no fat vampires, at least in movies, I don't see the whole prediliction for black. After all, it's only going to highlight their pale complexions. They should go for warmer colours. Perhaps a nice taupe.
just go through and read some of the points of contention. Skip all the legalese. They start out very general and get more specific as it goes on. Most of them don't seem all that big on their own, but often several of them together describe scenes that are identical between the book and the movie. As near as I could tell, virtually everything about the organization of the two species is the same, as well as every key point of the plot.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't quite see how they're claiming to have invented vampires and werewolves... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They aren't. They're claiming to have invented a lot of the storyline in Underworld, though. Geez.
Oh, I'm definently going to see that movie. Something awesome about gunning the floor below you in a circle to drop down the lower level to blast apart more.
a whoseit with a what what?
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't quite see how they're claiming to have invented vampires and werewolves... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They aren't. They're claiming to have invented a lot of the storyline in Underworld, though. Geez. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case, that PA comic has kind of missed the point, hasn't it? Or am I confused about something here?
amen to that, and the more I think about the more I tend to lean twoard this movie being a rip off.
Yes it did, but I think comics in general are supposed to simplify things enough that they **** people off. It's frustrating to me that so many people will be using that comic and posts like doom's as their sole source of information about this though.
Yes it did, but I think comics in general are supposed to simplify things enough that they **** people off. It's frustrating to me that so many people will be using that comic and posts like doom's as their sole source of information about this though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't trying to. It's just that PA is usually very, very accurate...
Anyway, we all know how to win in a Vampire movie. Load up with stakes & shotguns, shoot everyone in PVC or rubber. They'll all be vampires.
Let's say we havef someone who makes a game. Just some generic company, nothing specific. In it, you play the role of a scientist who must fight his way out of an alien-infested research facility after a major disaster. The player character's name is Barney Freeman or Gordon Bennet or something like that. So then this other company, some "Valve Software" chaps, see this and say, "hey, wait a minute..." and file suit for copyright infringement - and with good reason.
Then, at some point, someone in some forum makes a post about it and starts talking about how Valve is claiming they invented the first person shooter. In the following posts, people simply read the title and jump on the "corporate = bad" bandwagon, claiming it's ridiculous, stupid, greedy, etc. etc. Obviously Valve didn't invent the first person shooter, so their argument is worthless... but that's not the argument! The argument is that Valve's own design based upon the first person shooter was directly mimicked for profit gains.
Same applies here. The company is not claiming they invented vampires, but that the new Underworld movie directly lifts concepts and characters (and the like) from White Wolf's existing <i>interpretations</i> of the vampire theme. It's not about who made the vampire, it's about who's doing what -with- the vampire. And that could really have been phrased better.
Thats the problem with your country.
You people love to SUE your fellow man.
"OWWWEEE <u><b>I</b></u> split HOT (like it says on the cup) coffee on my lap, I guess I will SUE someone because the coffee wasn't cold and it only said "careful hot", like 4 times on the cup.. should have said it 5"
"I was breaking into this guys house to kill him, he surprised me and stabbed me in the leg, I sued him for 500 grand and he went to jail"
"The tabloids said I use to weigh 500 lbs, I guess I will sue them for printing lie in theie "totally true" magazine.
"You painted your car the same colour as my car.. I am gonna sue you"
"You gave birth to a boy... I DID THAT FIRST, I'm GONNA SUE!"
Where does it end?
I don't think they infringed on copysrights, yes they have a similar scheem, but come on, if you look at half the moives out there you could say, "They stole that idea from..."
*shakes head* <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
"I was breaking into this guys house to kill him, he surprised me and stabbed me in the leg, I sued him for 500 grand and he went to jail"
"The tabloids said I use to weigh 500 lbs, I guess I will sue them for printing lie in theie "totally true" magazine.
"You painted your car the same colour as my car.. I am gonna sue you"
"You gave birth to a boy... I DID THAT FIRST, I'm GONNA SUE!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And not <i>one</i> of those ridiculous examples applies here. In fact, only one of those is a case you'd even see - the coffee cup example - and that was because the cups -didn't- say "Caution: Hot" prior to that lawsuit. One woman's greedy exploitation of a legal loophole doesn't make it representative of the entire nation.
I'm not going to defend the practices of some people's stupid and utterly moronic legal actions in this country, but I see White Wolf's case as perfectly justified.
There's a -<b>huge</b>- difference between making a movie with a similar scheme and making a movie with a near identical plot, shared characters, etc. etc.
1) as KFS pointed out, those cups only say 'caution: Hot' cuss of that lawsuit (gg majin, you just proved why she sued <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
2) ok, you can list probably around 200 of these 'stupid' lawsuits (asssuming you do ALOT of research) soooo 280mill - 200 = 279mill(we will just chunk off that HUGE portion for sake of nice ROUND numbers <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) so all americans are stupid? right? Ty
now back onto the topic of THIS lawsuit, and not america bashing (ty haveagoodday)
ok, basic stronger points:
65
66
68
75
76
79
86
87
100-116 (laying out how close the book at the movie are)
there jsut scan over those few points and you will start to see where their base comes from.
It is very hard to actualy see the problems unless you are already familiar with a few vampire works (WWs, Ane Rice, Dracual ect). WW has ussed ideas from many of these places, and Sony will probably claim they siply got insperation from similar sources. The problem being is that their 'inspired' ideas lie WAY to close to specifics from WoD.
honestly I have never heard of Abominations (werewolf embraced by a vamp) any where other then WoD (if any one else knows one pls tell me, I am curious)
so yah, no 65pgs just a few points <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and a few other things:
1) you can ignore everything after pg 20 and before pg 8 (thats where the point for point stuf starts and ends)
2) It took them this long b/c every thing HAS to be done up in 'legalease' (65 pgs of that is ALOT), it has to be that ong b/c the MUST include every single point they are making (not just the comparisons but also the legal points) in it before it is released. Again that takes alot of ground wrok and typing.
The Real Ghostbusters, episode where vampires and werewolves are ripping into each other "No One Comes to Lupusville" - you see hybrid vampire/werewolves.
Howling VI: The Freaks? I guess you missed it. As well as the vampire vs werewolf theme, the climax has one character attacked by both.
TY and GG.
Incidentally the Ghostbusters ep was written by J. Michael Straczynski, funnily enough. Second, what do you think would happen if a werewolf was bitten by a vampire, or vice versa?
Regardless of ploughing through the legal document, IMHO I'll hold out for the film, so I can judge for myself.
Point 83: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives.
Wow. Wow wow wow. A story set in the the present (or future, I can't tell) and they use the weapons of that period in time. You could knock me over with a stiff wind right now. Ever play the Legacy of Kain series? Do you know that they use swords in that game? Do you know why they don't use guns? BECAUSE IT'S NOT SET IN A TIME PERIOD THAT HAS GUNS! Duh! I mean, come on... would it make sense to have a bunch of people running around carrying spears and clubs in a time period that has rocket launchers? No.
Point 84: In the World of Darkness, the vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting werewolves. In Underworld, the vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting werewolves.
Stargate SG-1 spoke of reversing polarity to fix problems. Star Trek: The Next Generation always had Geordi speaking of reversing polarities to fix problems. Does this mean that they copied each other? No! Can you really 'copy' scientific terms? Does anyone have a copyright to such things? I think that's stretching it. Clive Barker's Undying featured silver bullets that were more powerful than normal bullets. Now, the "Nitrate" part is a bit strange, but the fact that they used silver bullets is not something that World of Darkness invented. That's silly.
Point 85: "In the World of Darkness, the background setting is very dark, described as gothic/punk. In Underworld, the background setting is very dark, with a combination of gothic and punk attire, settings, and people.
I would attribute that more to The Matrix, and not World of Darkness. The movie gave me a feeling of "The Matrix: Resurrected".
Point 89: In the World of Darkness, vampires cast reflections. In Underworld, vampires cast reflections.
One very long word: HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAH.
Point 90: In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option.
Now it's what they DON'T say that's a problem? Can they win here?
Point 91: In the World of Darkness, most vampires cannot change into other shapes, like bats or mist, unless they are very old and powerful. In Underworld, no vampires change into other forms, but the last remaining Elder is hanging upside down in his crypt and is described as bat like.
That's very weak. Dracula could turn into a bat. Why isn't that wrong?
Point 95: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires can kill each other with their teeth and claws.
Who'da thunk? Perhaps it's the fact that teeth and claws are NATURAL weapons?
Point 97: In the World of Darkness, silver weapons harm werewolves. In Underworld, silver weapons harm werewolves.
Please see previous post about Clive Barker's: Undying. Okay, I'll reiterate. Silver bullets have always been considered powerful against the 'spooky.' It's not suprising that they're used here.
There are probably other points, but I won't go any further. The case has some valid points, and Sony has some schplaining to do, but most points brought forth aren't that impressive.
yes, alot of it is silly
think about it this way, you wana make a wod box, you need a hammer, nails, and some pieces of wood (or what ever suplies you want)
the silly ones are just getting said suplies. The real ones are the ones that show full out problems.
also on a few notes:
1) Silver Nitrate, I believe it has silver in it, but the other neeat factor is that it burns (some thing that deals agg dmg to vamps <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> hehe, yes I am a gammer <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) (this is just to explain more than anytihng, oh and this is quasi science not real science, it dosn't actualy 'burn' like that)
2) In the World of Darkness, vampires cast reflections. In Underworld, vampires cast reflections.
-Most vamp myths have vamps casting no relfections
3) In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option.
-most vamp myths again have the main meathod of killing a vamp being the good ol stake through the heart. The factor that they didn't mention this is underworld meens that they purposfuly ignored that section of most myths (this is actualy stoled from ane rice as I remember <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
But I was waiting for someone to quote me shooting down the "abomination" intellectual property, then saw PWNED for my excellent use of nerd knowledge.
Anyhow...
Silver nitrate is used as a pesticide, as I recall, so its available in large quantities for low cost. With a legitimate greenhouse front, noone would ask any questions. Mixed with certain compounds it becomes explosive, and its also water soluble, so should it penetrate the skin it'd do mad damage to any potential undead.
"-Most vamp myths have vamps casting no relfections"
Most are not all. In fact its doubtful to say most -I'd agree that vampirism as it became known under the christian doctrine would involve this. However, vampires of other cultures do not mention this flaw.
Mirrors are linked with souls, yes, but the actual absence of a reflection being related to a vampire was not made until, AFAIK, Stoker wrote Dracula. And he added the line on a whim.
"3) In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires."
Also the case in most myths. Generally it involved a weapon of purest silver (generally potent against foul creatures), or iron, struck once through the heart, or a beheading. Furthermore, Indian vampires must ONLY be struck once - further damage will be healed.
In fact, to be truly technical some western myths have the vampire as absolutely immortal - impaling it, decapitating it, stuffing mouth and throat with garlic and burning the body to a fine ash before scattering it in a fast flowing river would only stop it from coming back so quickly. But it WOULD come back.
"most vamp myths again have the main meathod of killing a vamp being the good ol stake through the heart."
Western only. Beheading was popular, burning, a single fatal blow with any weapon. In cultures where vampires could not be killed, immobilisation of the body was the next best thing - such as building cairns, impalement in the earth, scattering flowers, or performing an exorcism.
The vampire mythos is a hell of a bit bigger and older than the modern descendents of Stoker's Dracula.
For a gamer I'd expect you to know this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
couldn't be killed by conventional means. Mael had his head lopped off by a Roman Centurion. The blood that gushed out pulled the head back and re-attached it. Marius wore a PURE SILVER crucifix. Lestat was burned to a nice crispy coating, and 'lo and behold, he comes back. The only sure fire way to kill an Anne Rice style vampire is to burn the heart or to leave out in sunlight.
Some of the WW points are stupid, but some might be legitimate. Honestly, if White Wolf is worried about copyright infringement, why not just get Sony to give them a certain % of the profits instead of suing for a set amount?
there is probably a good reason to sue for a set amount in this case (though I aint positive, mabey they expect it to bomb or something)
again, yes I know there are many other myth involving vampires, however the ones that most people know aobut are good old dracula and his many variants.
I am not even going to bother with nonwestern ideas (cuss then yu get in to goat sucking and thats just plain wierd <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Also, most people are not very knowledgable about other vamp myths.
Now, if Sony claims to have NEVER even HEARD of WW (as they did <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) then I sorta doubt they could have even heard on any other non normal vamp myths (comn, put vampire or werewolf into google <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
again, I am not arguing that WW is RIGHT, I am simply arguing that they have a case and that PA (yet again) spued some stupid stuff and every one just bought it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (no I realy don't like PA).
I am personaly with holding judgment till I see the movie (and I WILL see that movie, as many have pointed out... leather clad chick with guns GO US! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
When I see it and I get a feel for it I will lay down my judgment (not that it realy meens squat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). If I come out thinking, wow that was a cool WoD movie then thats where I stand <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
(again I hate both WoD and Sony <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As for the suit, to HONESTLY make a balanced judgement on it, you would need to read the WW novel that is cited, see the uncut film, and address each component of the lawsuit one by one.
Doing anything other than that will result in conjecture.