A Stark Realization
DiscoZombie
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">about religion</div> I was about to post in the "is it possible for god to forgive" thread the fact that, when it comes to religion, whatever answers are right for you are the right answers. Then it hit me -- this is why so many people can do such evil things in the name of religion, or they can do evil things and still call themselves Christians or Muslims or whatever... everyone is free to interpret the scriptures and teachings of their religion any way they want... Christians and Muslims and Jews can feel like they're doing God's work in killing each other off, for instance, even if all their religions are against killing...
*shrug* just a brainstorm, and a pretty obvious one at second glance, but, discuss if you'd like. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
*shrug* just a brainstorm, and a pretty obvious one at second glance, but, discuss if you'd like. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
1) God apparantly gave us free will. Then he punishes us if we don't use it the way he wants (i.e, believing in him/it/w.e). Why does he want all these followers anyway? Are we just in a Giant game of Black And White, and it is us who keeps him alive with prayer power? and how do you know that God isn't a sadist, who carefully laid down all that history to build people's hopes up, then let them rot in hell when they die?
2) When i think about death, i see two views: I see religious view (i admit i'm doing mainly christian type religions here) where an old dude with white hair Judges you, and you either go off into some Vauge heaven, which no one has EVER bothered to put into context. "Paradise". My paradise would be sex, booze and video games all day, but i doubt any serious christian priests, let alone God, would like that.
Or you go to hell, which is explained in deep, deep detail, which leads me to belive that religion is merely a control device so you obey.
"Obey me and you'll go to heaven"
"what's heaven?"
"Man, it pwns. It's paradise"
"Uhhh, what's that?"
"Paradise"
"Oh... and if we don't obey?"
"You go to Hell"
"What's that?"
"Fires, deep eternal fires, you shall be tormented every day by small horned people with pitchforks who stab you in the ****, your skin will burn off, peel and melt, then the next day it grows back and it happens again, you live out the rest of your lifeless life, which is eternity btw, in agony, writhing in pain and thinking "Gee, i really wish i'd oebeyed""
"Err, what was the other choice again?"
See? it works. It's control, that's all
The other way i view death is this: Nothing. you're not there, no feeling, no nothing. Your body rots, or is kept in an urn or however you were dealt with.
Think deeply, look at the world. Which one truly makes more sense? One like a scene from a Fantasy RPG, or nothingness?
(God, i'm bitter today...)
But i admit to being curious as to exactly what happens to the mind... As you said, energy cannot just dissapear completely and without trace. But i just can't believe that i will be judged by God when i die. And he's mean anyway, here i am, a kid with no religious guidance in life, and i'm going to hell because my parents didn't force a religion on me from a young age <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
/me begins to wish he hadn't engaged greypaws in a scientific discussion...
Thats all it really is...
"Go forth in the name of [whoever] and [do this] for [some religion]"
"If you dont do [this] you will go/end up/turn into [here/there/this]"
Bleh.
I'll just do the best i can and hope that there isn't something out there that'll judge me. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think i'll go stab myself once more, now . . .
Thats all it really is...
"Go forth in the name of [whoever] and [do this] for [some religion]"
"If you dont do [this] you will go/end up/turn into [here/there/this]"
Bleh.
I'll just do the best i can and hope that there isn't something out there that'll judge me. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think i'll go stab myself once more, now . . . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
very simple, very sweet, and I couldn't agree more. ;p
Most major world religions were around long before they were used for anything resembling control. Large, established churches did not come about until the 4th century, 300 years after Christ's death on the cross, and over 200 years after the writing of the Gospels.
People corrupt things. Plain and simple. Look at the religious ideology before making a judgement on that religion.
I thought I'd back up my point with a verse or two.
Acts 16:29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
If you read through Acts 16, basicly, Paul and Silas are impreisoned and beaten for commanding a demon out of a fortune teller. The forutune teller's owners got upset that their source of revenue was gone, and had Paul adn Silas thrown into prison. There was a large earthquake, breaking the prison walls, so the guard was about to kill himself from dishonor, when Paul shouted "Do not harm yourself, we are all here"
The jailer, obviously distraught over the display, falls to his knees and asks Paul what he needs to do to be saved.
If religion, or, more specifically, Christiantiy, was merely a form of control, why did Paul not command to be given tithes? Or an army? Or even the man's loyalty.
He even rebukes people who ploclaim they were baptized into his name in 1 Corinthians 1:13
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
He even denys these people's loyalty, and directs them towards Christ instead. He had the people in his hand, basicly, but instead of controling them, he refered them to Christ instead. Why would an instrument of control be used to turn people away from leaders?
Wouldnt matter squat if your parents forced religion on you. Religion is a choice between you and deity X, not something your parents sign you up for.
And as for nothingness after death - thoughts are not energy. They are the results of chemical reactions. There really IS nothingness after death, given that you can no longer think - assuming of course that their is no deity. I think - therefore I am.
Stickman, I'd love to know exactly why God created me, but I just dont know. And I'm not going to second guess him or call him a fool.
He is the Comm, I am but a n00b - the comm sees the overall picture while I can only see whats right in front of me.
And you're all right about interpretation. Religion is based upon interpretation upon texts that are supposedly devinely inspired. So if you really want to go after religion, go after the book. Show them the fallicies. But be warned, there is more to these books then meets the eye. They have been translated, they have context and they require an understanding of the culture that has written them.
Hey, how did you knwo about my... umm.. baby fat? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
well really...the exact opposite is at hand, the people that believe in god went to church with their parents all the time, and the people that didnt had parents that didnt go to church all the time...pretty much all your belief in anything comes down to your parents (whoever you were raised by) and your parents's parents, and so forth to come down to a point where someone had some experience not influenced by others where he decided to do blah blah blah...
Same thing can actually go with political things too...Things like Racism and the dislike of certain people all come from little things your parents might have done...even little comments may be the only thing that you've ever heard about someone/something and therefor it is all you have to rely on to decide your personality twords it.
Very inaccurate. While the religion you start with is decided by your parents, you make a free decision to stay, leave or convert to a different religion once you're grown up. That's an informed choice, based on how well you feel they can explain the world around us.
Hey, how did you knwo about my... umm.. baby fat? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eheheheh a long time ago I was browsing through the then locked Discussion forum looking at religious threads, and one came up about this fella from Ohio who was having trouble with a certain girl at his church.
He asked for a bit of advice, mentioned religion, and someone told him to forget religion. And this fella said "Without religion I'm just another tubby kid from Ohio".
That really stuck in my mind.
How'd that go btw (if you dont mind me asking, I always wondered how you sorted it out in the end.....)
Check some facts from the ancient egypt thousands of years before Jeesus. Gods were merely a tool to keep poor people in line, Pharao ruling and priests rich.
Question for believers:
How can we know that those gods are not the right Gods and your god is? They were here much sooner anyway.
Question number 2:
Why the God didn't send a messiah sooner than he did? Did all those people before him just go to hell?
Check some facts from the ancient egypt thousands of years before Jeesus. Gods were merely a tool to keep poor people in line, Pharao ruling and priests rich.
Question for believers:
How can we know that those gods are not the right Gods and your god is? They were here much sooner anyway.
Question number 2:
Why the God didn't send a messiah sooner than he did? Did all those people before him just go to hell? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it obvious? They can't be sure. Thats why thye call it 'faith'.
How can we know that those gods are not the right Gods and your god is? They were here much sooner anyway.
Question number 2:
Why the God didn't send a messiah sooner than he did? Did all those people before him just go to hell? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: Faith. My God has been around since before the dawn of time.
2: Because God is eternal and unchanging, his grace must also be eternal and unchanging. This means that the people before Jesus who believed in God such as Abraham, Moses and other leaders of Israel will all be able to claim Jesus' saving grace as much as you or I. If Jesus came in the next few years instead of 2000 years ago, it would still be the same.
The idea of a single God is very very old.
Question two is hard to answer - its really hard to know from my position. However, I am completely convinced that God is just, and that they will get a fair trial. I have heard several possible explainations but I simply dont wish to go there right now. Reincarnation is one theory that attempts to deal with premessiah deaths.
Why didnt God send the messiah earlier? Who knows, but I bet he had a good reason. He is supposed to be God right, all knowing all powerful. I think chances are his timing is gold.
Yes but you can't prove it. You can't prove it to others nor you can prove it to your own brains. You believe because you want to. That's ok but it doesn't answer my question <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You cant. You have faith that there is no God, we have faith that there is.
Seems to me that we are all pretty much equal here.
I just hope you are not deceiving your own mind just by repeating "I believe" in your mind. I mean do you have something concrete and solid you can always lean on when you are low on faith? Something that always reminds you why you believe and let's you know 100% sure that there is a god beside you? Something that answers all of your questions and doubts about religion and bible?
You don't have to tell me what it is. Just yes or no. If it's no, you ought to reconcider you faith. If it's yes, well then I or anyone else can never shake your faith, congrats.
If it's not illusions in your mind or your subconscious trying to come up with excuses to keep your world in one piece, you must the most happiest man alive. I think I could never be totally sure. There's always some doubt in my mind and that just makes the whole faith part futile because then I'm just guessing and playing roulette. And I don't want to pretend to believe only to be on the safe side in the case of emergency(ie. gods existance).
I just hope you are not deceiving your own mind just by repeating "I believe" in your mind. I mean do you have something concrete and solid you can always lean on when you are low on faith? Something that always reminds you why you believe and let's you know 100% sure that there is a god beside you? Something that answers all of your questions and doubts about religion and bible?
You don't have to tell me what it is. Just yes or no. If it's no, you ought to reconcider you faith. If it's yes, well then I or anyone else can never shake your faith, congrats.
If it's not illusions in your mind or your subconscious trying to come up with excuses to keep your world in one piece, you must the most happiest man alive. I think I could never be totally sure. There's always some doubt in my mind and that just makes the whole faith part futile because then I'm just guessing and playing roulette. And I don't want to pretend to believe only to be on the safe side in the case of emergency(ie. gods existance). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About my questions with the bible? I look at the bible, interpret it for myself, and make an informed decision that way. I've done it numerious times before, and will continue to do it again.
"For the word is living and active, sharper than a double edged sword."
Oh, by the way, she broke up with me about threee monthes ago, i've finally gotten over her, and we're slowly rebuilding our friendship. No long term scars, but learned some tough lessons.
EDIT <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question for believers:
How can we know that those gods are not the right Gods and your god is? They were here much sooner anyway.
Question number 2:
Why the God didn't send a messiah sooner than he did? Did all those people before him just go to hell?
Isn't it obvious? They can't be sure. Thats why thye call it 'faith'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To question number one: Can their God's prophecy? Does their holy book record miracles called down by God? Enter the account of the showdown between Elijah and the preists of Baal. Does their faith make as much sense as Christianity? Does it cover all the bases, as it were? Most of them don't. I'd venture to say all of them, from my perspective, but I haven't really looked at anything more than Hinduism, BUddhism, and Islam, so I can't speak for all religions.
As for number 2: I'm not sure exactly why he sent Christ when he did. But the Jews, everyone who chose to follow Mosiaic laws and customs, were God's chosen people. I believe they went to heaven, as they placed their faith in GOd to deliver a messiah. Hebrews speaks of this faith being perfected in Christ. (two of them even were risen directly there, like Elijah and.. ehh. another E name that eludes me)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Isn't it obvious? They can't be sure. Thats why thye call it 'faith'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After reading 1984 and Fahrenheit 451, and other such novels, I'm pretty fairly convinced that we need faith to accept anything from our history. Everyone has faith in something, it's just where it lies that differs.
It sounds simple enough but it took a four-day Kairos retreat for me to really get a handle on it.
/me begins to wish he hadn't engaged greypaws in a scientific discussion... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don’t worry, we're mainly on the same page. The only thing that can ever judge you is yourself, when we die, even if people are all around us, we are alone in our minds. If you have lived according to your own set of guidelines, you have nothing to worry about. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
/me begins to wish he hadn't engaged greypaws in a scientific discussion... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don’t worry, we're mainly on the same page. The only thing that can ever judge you is yourself, when we die, even if people are all around us, we are alone in our minds. If you have lived according to your own set of guidelines, you have nothing to worry about. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, I can't see that. What if my own guidelines involve raping as many people as I can? There needs to be an absolute standard to measure yourself against, which is why God is the only one capable of judging people, because He is that absolute standard.
Atheists (well me at least) believe that the only world that exists is THIS world. "Judging" comes at all times, not just when your life is over. Live your life to the fullest, dont lay anything off because you expect more after you die, just don't be an idiot and do something against the law, because that will get your life ended a lot less eventfully.
Believe and worship a God (or Gods) until you die, then if you find out there IS a God, you can be happy because if you followed your religion, you will get the "Good Side" of the after life. If there isn't a God.... Well, don't worry about it, because you can't worry.
If you don't believe or worship, when you die, you find out. Either you are no longer conscious ever again, or you are condemed (apparantly, i mean, God could be cool with people who don't believe).
On a side note, i think eternal damnation is a pretty harsh sentance for not believing. I mean, he could bust your lip once, then let you into Heaven, or he could just not let you into any afterlife at all. If i was God (and some day, i plan on being one), i would work it like:
Evil (rapist,planned murderer, mass-murderer, Gamespy, Steam) - Go to hell.
Not-Good-Or-Evil (General-Non-Believers, Self-Defence Murderers etc) - Nothingness
Good (you know) - Heaven.
Makes more sense to me. That's why, even though i'm not sure if there is a God or not, i wo't believe in him "To be on the safe side" because, quite frankly, if he sends people into the FIRERY DEPTHS OF HELL (muahahahah!) just because they don't believe in him, I don't want to. He just isn't a nice person at all.
I dont really get the entire confession stuff, either ... the girl is still destroyed [(hmm. supposed to be wraped. n/m then...)] the clerk still has a bullet in his shoulder/leg/head/whatever, etc, etc ... confessing just gets you a one-way ticket to jail. how does confessing to someone your religion makes it all "better" for you? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> "Yeah, i confessed, im not going to hell!"
WT*?
Stickman, you gotta admit Hell and nothingless are still bad punishments... hell, well, is hell; and nothingness is very boring since nothing happens. course if you dont exist, there's no way a human could actually "think" of it, since its so hard to imagine... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (I keep seeing myself in the void, its freakin' impossible to get total nothingness in thought!)