Flags In Schools
Josiah_Bartlet
Join Date: 2002-07-04 Member: 880Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-07-04 Member: 880Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">A Telegraph Article</div> A while ago <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk' target='_blank'>The (London) Daily Telegraph</a> had a large report from America, known as <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/turnerhome.xml' target='_blank'>"An American Oddessy"</a>, you will have to register to view the articles.
This gave me an interesting insight to America, and its view of itself.
I just thought I'd focus on one topic, under <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/18/turner/turner1606.xml' target='_blank'>"America the 'super-duper' power"</a>. Although numerous topics are avaliable for debate.
Flags in schools.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An ideology, of course, involves brainwashing; and, in America, it gets under way very early. Every morning, the 900 children of Glen Forest elementary school in Falls Church, Virginia - half of them Latinos, 20 per cent from the Middle East, only five per cent white Caucasians - stand, with bare heads and hands on hearts, and, facing the flag, repeat the same stirring words: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America... one nation under God, indivisible and with liberty and justice for all. "I have my three-year-olds doing it," said the head teacher, Teresa West.
Down the road at the Lake Anne school in Reston, half of the children take many of their classes in Spanish and make the pledge in the same language: <i>Juro fidelidad a la Bandera de los Estados Unidos de Norte America.</i> In both schools, it is a solemn moment.
"We do it at 8.25 every morning," said Wanda Nelson, Lake Anne's deputy head. "If one of the children comes late with their parents, and the pledge is announced over the loudspeakers, they stop dead in their tracks and say it right there, children and parents alike."
I asked a group of delightful six-to-eight-year-olds how they feel when they recite the pledge. Does it make them feel respectful or, perhaps, bored? No, they cried out! "I feel proud when I do it," said Acadia, "because America is a very good country, a free country." A little boy murmured: "Sometimes, my heart is beating."
"Most children want to be American," said Nelson, "and saying the pledge gives them a sense of pride. They are absolutely uplifted by it. They feel they're tasting the American dream."
Every classroom in both schools - like their counterparts right across the United States - had a flag. When I confessed that we do not have flags in our classrooms, Ms Nelson was mystified. "You have no flags?" she asked. "How on earth do you engender patriotism?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so I begin to wonder, I never knew it was the job of schools to "engender patriotism" in their students - it certainly never happens in Britain, infact in my area if you put the Union Jack up you get a letter from the local Council asking you to take it down as it may cause offence (something I am deeply against so don't have a go at me about it). Even so around here I have seen three Union Jacks, one on my bedroom wall, one hanging from a house opposite and one in a garden of the house down the road.
The two Union Jacks that aren't mine are hung upside down, one barely notices and the average person in Britain wouldn't know the difference anyhow.
This is, basically because, in Britain there are no flags in schools, we have only recently just started taking "Citizenship" lessons that teach us about the Government and such things, these are not designed to "engender patriotism" by any means.
So then why does America feel that its schools need to and we don't?
(Please read the whole article before commenting, it has some cery interesting details and you all should enjoy it.)
Oh and before I get brandished a Communist and such like, The Daily Telegraph is the most right wing mainstream newspaper in Britain. It is also "The Most Popular Quality Daily," and so no quibbles about the use of the term "brainwashing" being some sort of leftist Liberal tripe.
This gave me an interesting insight to America, and its view of itself.
I just thought I'd focus on one topic, under <a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/18/turner/turner1606.xml' target='_blank'>"America the 'super-duper' power"</a>. Although numerous topics are avaliable for debate.
Flags in schools.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An ideology, of course, involves brainwashing; and, in America, it gets under way very early. Every morning, the 900 children of Glen Forest elementary school in Falls Church, Virginia - half of them Latinos, 20 per cent from the Middle East, only five per cent white Caucasians - stand, with bare heads and hands on hearts, and, facing the flag, repeat the same stirring words: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America... one nation under God, indivisible and with liberty and justice for all. "I have my three-year-olds doing it," said the head teacher, Teresa West.
Down the road at the Lake Anne school in Reston, half of the children take many of their classes in Spanish and make the pledge in the same language: <i>Juro fidelidad a la Bandera de los Estados Unidos de Norte America.</i> In both schools, it is a solemn moment.
"We do it at 8.25 every morning," said Wanda Nelson, Lake Anne's deputy head. "If one of the children comes late with their parents, and the pledge is announced over the loudspeakers, they stop dead in their tracks and say it right there, children and parents alike."
I asked a group of delightful six-to-eight-year-olds how they feel when they recite the pledge. Does it make them feel respectful or, perhaps, bored? No, they cried out! "I feel proud when I do it," said Acadia, "because America is a very good country, a free country." A little boy murmured: "Sometimes, my heart is beating."
"Most children want to be American," said Nelson, "and saying the pledge gives them a sense of pride. They are absolutely uplifted by it. They feel they're tasting the American dream."
Every classroom in both schools - like their counterparts right across the United States - had a flag. When I confessed that we do not have flags in our classrooms, Ms Nelson was mystified. "You have no flags?" she asked. "How on earth do you engender patriotism?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so I begin to wonder, I never knew it was the job of schools to "engender patriotism" in their students - it certainly never happens in Britain, infact in my area if you put the Union Jack up you get a letter from the local Council asking you to take it down as it may cause offence (something I am deeply against so don't have a go at me about it). Even so around here I have seen three Union Jacks, one on my bedroom wall, one hanging from a house opposite and one in a garden of the house down the road.
The two Union Jacks that aren't mine are hung upside down, one barely notices and the average person in Britain wouldn't know the difference anyhow.
This is, basically because, in Britain there are no flags in schools, we have only recently just started taking "Citizenship" lessons that teach us about the Government and such things, these are not designed to "engender patriotism" by any means.
So then why does America feel that its schools need to and we don't?
(Please read the whole article before commenting, it has some cery interesting details and you all should enjoy it.)
Oh and before I get brandished a Communist and such like, The Daily Telegraph is the most right wing mainstream newspaper in Britain. It is also "The Most Popular Quality Daily," and so no quibbles about the use of the term "brainwashing" being some sort of leftist Liberal tripe.
Comments
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>Nazis!</span>
But seriously we should all know by now public schools are just a indoctrination into citizenship of the US.
The article calls it brainwashing. I don't see it that way and I can't really see why they do.
I think Western Europe should have a look at itself before it scrutinizes America.
I personally was appalled when it became mandatory to either do the pledge, or play the national anthem. A view I expressed by being intentionally rude during the Anthem's playing everyday. In Wisconsin the pledge was banned in school as it was considered to be offensive (under God), many (many, many) people were extreemly upset about this. The schoolboard later reversed its decission (all but one of them anyway, you go man-who's-name-I-forget-at-the-moment-but-will-paste-here-later!). Of course, this was all shortly after 9.11 so Patriotism was a sudden fad that you had to follow or risk being alienated.
Nazis! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's not totally correct, but close to it.
Just see that in America every sport match starts with the national anthem... and in Germany we removed a whole stancer from our national anthem because it said "Germany Germany over everything, over everything in the world".
(Oh it just fit's perfectly into <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=47458' target='_blank'>this thread about political correctness</a>)
oh, and one quite interessting thing that just came to my mind:
America with it's national proud engendering stuff is quite close to cummunist China with it's Flags everywhere, the daily nation-wide morning sports and so on, isn't it?
There was a supreme court ruling that you can't force anyone to say the pledge. I think that includes standing for it. Of course, the number of schools and teachers that inform you of that right can probably be counted on one hand. When I was in high school, we got a new principal who led the pledge over the intercom. The freshmen had no problem with it, but after years of not having to do it, none of the upperclassmen were thrilled. I never recited it or stood for it. I didn't see how reciting an oath would somehow make me more or less patriotic.
On that point I shall make another quote from the Article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For some immigrants, however, it is too much, too soon. I went out to dinner in Atlanta with Mike McCarthy and his wife Christina. Mike recently arrived from Britain to be managing editor of CNN International. They both love the city. "I'd never go back to London," said Christina.
On the other hand, within a month of putting their two little boys into the local elementary school, they were startled to find them coming back home singing patriotic American songs and telling them that they really ought to be going off to Washington to see the Lincoln Memorial. In September, Mike and Christina are moving the boys to an international school.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't blame 'em.
God damn it man, I already explained what The Daily Telegraph is. Its not the bloody Socialist Worker!
It is a right wing newspaper, it supports fox hunting, the decentralisation of power, even the War in Iraq to some extent(not like The Sun or the Mail though), it even supports the Conservative Party, at a time when even The Times is supporting Labour (thanks to Rupert Murdoch), it is against the Euro, and to some extent the EU. Its no conspiracy theory newsletter.
It is a right wing newspaper, it supports fox hunting, the decentralisation of power, even the War in Iraq to some extent(not like The Sun or the Mail though), it even supports the Conservative Party, at a time when even The Times is supporting Labour (thanks to Rupert Murdoch), it is against the Euro, and to some extent the EU. Its no conspiracy theory newsletter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care what this newspaper is. I don't need an article to tell me about America, I am an American and I'm not being brainwashed. Nobody is forcing anyone to say anything and nobody is being forced to live here.
It is a right wing newspaper, it supports fox hunting, the decentralisation of power, even the War in Iraq to some extent(not like The Sun or the Mail though), it even supports the Conservative Party, at a time when even The Times is supporting Labour (thanks to Rupert Murdoch), it is against the Euro, and to some extent the EU. Its no conspiracy theory newsletter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care what this newspaper is. I don't need an article to tell me about America, I am an American and I'm not being brainwashed. Nobody is forcing anyone to say anything and nobody is being forced to live here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its job is not to tell you about America, it was to give its readers (who are 99.9% British or ex-pats) an insight into what the man found when he want to America. So get off your high horse.
I don't want this to be a debate as to whether or not America brainwashes its kids ot not, I never said they did.
The question I asked was <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So then why does America feel that its schools need to [engender patriotism] and we don't?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they did a crappy(really crappy) job at it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So get off your high horse.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, after you. If someone else get's defensive because of that article, then I can't blame them... that was the <b>worst</b> example of objective reporting.
It starts off with brainwashing? Holy crap that article is brainwashing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question I asked was <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So then why does America feel that its schools need to [engender patriotism] and we don't?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that obvious? It's because you don't like your country enough to do so. So few people in this world realize how important a country is for them.
If others think that it's politically correct to slam a country, then man, I have no idea of what the world is coming to.
and sort of political ideals fed into kids before they realise what significance they have beyond being great things is pretty much brainwashing, not nasty brainwashing, but on the level at least of the kinda brainwashing TV is capable of.
i mean kids dont know why its done, they just get it in their heads, and it sticks! conciously or not.
I've always thought education was about teaching people how to think, not how they <b>should</b> think, or indeed, be.
Grendel, you tend to avoid elaborating on points you make. Can you please point out how American kids saying the pledge is nationalism instead of patriotism?
wouldn't fall back on my promise.
I can't get the other side of the hologram, though. It was a picture of a lot of kids doing what looked like a hitler salute (NO KIDDING), obviously testifying to the greatness of america. (It showed a high school graduate superimposed over the statue of liberty)
I won't try to pigeonhole the theme with any political or ideological bias. The biggest factor in this expose is the selection of individuals that the writer included. It simply isn't possible to represent the entire population of 270+million people but he didn't even try. All three sections smacked of "name dropping", elite poppycock. The "big brains" at Stanford or Harvard are so isolated from root America that asking there opinion about Ma and Pa couldn't possibly be regarded as credible. Now, when it comes to the "movers and shakers" who are looking for National notoriety, then they're probably spot on. But that's just it. I'm some nobody in Nowhere, Middle America. I don't know what they're about and they obviously don't know me.
But that's where the Walmart story comes in. "Walmart is bread an butter", right? No. Walmart is a flea market with air conditioning. I happen to despise Walmart btw for the very point the writer makes far to quickly--if a Walmart shows up on your corner, it's like a death certificate for every small business for a 5 mile radius. Do I want them disbanded? No. I voice my opinion by trying to support the smaller shops--trying to support those who really understand what the core of the American Dream means. It isn't about riches and power--it's about doing what you love and providing the best possible life for you and your family.
The discussions with the Washington insiders was like watching an evening debate coated with talking points and inside jabs. They are another group that has consciously isolated itself from "fly over country". These are the "elites" who go to the same parties with the same people and have the same discussions. The news reporters and syndicated columnists have also seperated themselves though they occasionally mingle with the Washington crowd. They consider themselves above the "common man" yet when called on it they'll give some cheesy anectdote about a little league game or how they like chili-dogs. Whatever. It's amusing how the reporterette is worried about "The Government" knocking on their door if they "say the wrong thing". It's the populace they should be worried about. And that's where the "oppressed free thinkers" on the airplane rides got it wrong also. The government didn't lead us into our current international position. The people did. The people demanded action and they weren't taking no for an answer. And anyone who isn't willing to speak their mind and blames it on some "McArthy-like gestapo" is merely trying to make themselves feel important. I've had disscussions very similar to those on these forums with just about everyone in my daily life. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is afraid some G-man in sharp shades is going to show up on their front step and lead them to some remote location.
This is where I wonder if the story was meant to be a look into American life or if it was a pandering to the European perspective. If you really want to know what people think here then you have to ask them. Don't ask the people who think they speak for Middle America. Ask Joe Blow on the street who is off to mail some bills or pick up some grocerys. Or ask Bette Nugs on her daily walk through the neighborhood.
That leads me to the initial point of The Pledge of Allegiance and the abundance of "flag-wavers". Patriotism here isn't about moving outward and spreading Capitalism like a virus, it's about remembering our history. Remembering all the people who reached as far as they could and tried their best to make a difference or challenge adversity. Yes there have been deep scars in our history, but that's part of the remembering also. Saying The Pledge or holding your hand over your heart during The National Anthem isn't about obeying the government or hailing America, it's about remembering your obligation to those around you who are on the same journey to make the best possible life they can attain. The focus in the article around the school's reciting of The Pledge would lead a reader who doesn't have the opportunity to witness daily life here to believe that children are only given specific instructions and all other input is controlled. That simply isn't true. Yes I believe that lessons in schools are metered way too effectively by groups who have no business teaching children, but this society is so open that Nationalistic indoctrination is practically impossible.
I could probably write more but I've been at this for far too long and I feel like I'm starting to ramble. Regardless, you don't have to take my word for it. And you can believe that I am in the throes of some massive propagandized brain-washing but I know for a fact that this report does not represent the core of American viewpoints.
that's a very good argument, I never thought of that. Basically to unite all these different cultures under one flag
I'm proud of my country and I'm patriotic in a normal way and I sure as hell don't need other people to stuff it down my throat. So my theory is that USA has a low self-esteem and that's why it wants to keep everyone über patriotic.
Edit: It's like a olympic for retards:
"I love my country very much"
"But I love it even more"
"But I love it most!!!"
"Ok, the one who sings loudest loves his country most"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Silly americans trying to show off how much they love their country. No other country has that kind of need to show off.
i have here an article about some governmental figure wanting to increase the level of 'positive history' taught in American schools, rather than focusing on the darker moments of American history.
conspiracy, no. a form a propaganda...? maaaayyybe. relevent to this disscusion, kinda.
anyway, its here if anyone wants it.
<a href='http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/09/schools.democracy.ap/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/09/sc...y.ap/index.html</a>
wouldn't fall back on my promise.
I can't get the other side of the hologram, though. It was a picture of a lot of kids doing what looked like a hitler salute (NO KIDDING), obviously testifying to the greatness of america. (It showed a high school graduate superimposed over the statue of liberty) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
WE HAD THAT SAME ONE A YEAR AGO. I told everyone to burn it because the kids in the hologram all have their right arms extended like Nazis.
i have here an article about some governmental figure wanting to increase the level of 'positive history' taught in American schools, rather than focusing on the darker moments of American history.
conspiracy, no. a form a propaganda...? maaaayyybe. relevent to this disscusion, kinda.
anyway, its here if anyone wants it.
<a href='http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/09/schools.democracy.ap/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/09/sc...y.ap/index.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make it sound like this "governmental figure" is some kind of fascist when it is just a non-partisan institution and there really is no "governmental figure."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Produced by the nonpartisan Albert Shanker Institute, "Education for Democracy" is the latest effort to try to strengthen the nation's underwhelming grasp of civics and history.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of have to agree with it. But I think the positive history is overwhelming in the elementary schools and the negative in the high schools. Either way, it doesn't really need to be changed.
anyone know when this practice was started?
There was a supreme court ruling that you can't force anyone to say the pledge. I think that includes standing for it. Of course, the number of schools and teachers that inform you of that right can probably be counted on one hand. When I was in high school, we got a new principal who led the pledge over the intercom. The freshmen had no problem with it, but after years of not having to do it, none of the upperclassmen were thrilled. I never recited it or stood for it. I didn't see how reciting an oath would somehow make me more or less patriotic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
IN my high school, we had a law passed in Illinois saying that we had to say the pledge and stand. I was the only one who refused to stand.
BTW: Flags in schools... it's most likely a public school, run by the government. That's like saying there shouldn't be McDonalds logos and something made by McDonalds.