So the little Indian boy will have something in common with the little Asian boy?
I don't know why the flags are being focused on so much, the entire public school system consists of indoctrination into American citizenship, or as Nem put it a form of brainwashing, whether it is a good or bad thing can be debated I guess.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Sep 23 2003, 08:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Sep 23 2003, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So the little Indian boy will have something in common with the little Asian boy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not bad, but looking around, there'll be lots of other common traits, starting with the boys favorite frosted flakes and ending with TV shows. I found common denominators with Vietnamese, Serbian, Kroatian, Turkish, and Russian pupils in my classes without of any intervention by the school whatsoever.
Well without any obvious intervention, the fact they were there and it being a public education instituation kinda constitutes intervention, but I'm playing devil's advocate, I think the public school system is utterly useless.
That is the earlier ones, grades 1-12, you could get a perfectly good education without every stepping foot inside an elementary, jr. high, or highschool.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Sep 23 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 23 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The matter of fact is that there is no objective reason for the pledge in lower school: If the children are educated to some sort of patriotism, it'll inevitably be an overly positive 'flag-waving' one as opposed to the mature definition Spooge offered, if not, it's a tedious and pointless piece of bravado that might even hurt patriotism via the "Man, was I stupid back then." - symptom Kheras noted. Well now, traditions that don't serve a purpose anymore were at all times discontinued. What good reason is there for the continued pledge of alleigance amongst small children? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well for starters, it ensures that they learn it, which is valuable. (Unless you are proposing that we get rid of anything that is wholly ceremonial.) You say the pledge everyday for the same reason you repeat multiplication tables over and over and learn the same math every year. Virtually every form of learning in elementary school is repetition.
Yeah, absolutely. When you break everything down children are children, and children are human. I am of a mind that beyond that, things are taught. Children are fully aware that there are children all over, and that there are children that look different. They are taught that being x is not as good as y and so on. When it is kept to something like a football rivalry, it's not that bad. Stepping up to a true wish of harm is where a line is required.
The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation. The motive principle behind it, fostering national pride, is different than fostering patriotism but just living in a place can cause you to feel the former. History and civics endorse duty and loyalty any way you slice 'em. Saying a mantra over and over means less to some, more to others. Hearing point after point from a teacher means something to all (unless you sit around and eat glue).
I'd hazard a point that the folks arguing both sides of the issue (in the states at least), grew up in a time in which patriotism was even more stressed in the classroom and in our environment. The big fight between socialism and capitalism. Movies, TV, what have you all pointed towards we are better, we will win. If such diametric points can evolve in the minds of people, down an almost even slice, in that environment then it'd take a heck of a lot more than saying the pledge every day to subvert free thought. Only around a third of our life is spent in school.
Aha, well I made a bad assumption given a comfort level of acceptable risk. Natch. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> If I were to vote I'd go for Africa or the Middle East, but Europe does encompass Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes so it's close. In recent history technology has pushed open fighting towards muscle flexing because, unlike previous eras, you face some serious damage in a conflict. The days of knights pushing hordes of peasants against one another to determine who gets to bang the king's daughter are gone.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Sep 23 2003, 08:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Sep 23 2003, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well for starters, it ensures that they learn it, which is valuable. (Unless you are proposing that we get rid of anything that is wholly ceremonial.) You say the pledge everyday for the same reason you repeat multiplication tables over and over and learn the same math every year. Virtually every form of learning in elementary school is repetition. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Below, I'm quoting the complete text of the pledge:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I dunno about you, but claiming that American pupils will not learn those three lines unless they're repeated every day during their lower school career seems to border on America-bashing to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kheras+ --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kheras @ )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, then, let them say it once they reach the age to be prosecuted. Again, I'm not arguing about the points of patriotism, nor the use of pledges, but this very specific instance.
Surely you have customs and table manners you can't explain but everyone does it nonetheless. Don't say you were brainwashed into doing the customs either because that's ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was brainwashed into doing the customs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You weren't brainwashed into doing any customs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I know. That was a <b>joke</b>, hence the smiling face. Perhaps one should never joke in this kinds of 'serious' threads. However the beef of my post was
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Give a better example of something useless I do that could be compared to going out and doing something only for the sake of doing it. I can't think of anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously can't think of anything so I would like an concrete example. I think I don't do anything comparable to going outside, citing some words I don't understand and looking at a flag...every day.
Edit: Sorry it took so long time to reply in to your post in the first place. And don't take this so seriously, we are skulk race comrades after all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Sep 23 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 23 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The matter of fact is that there is no objective reason for the pledge in lower school: If the children are educated to some sort of patriotism, it'll inevitably be an overly positive 'flag-waving' one as opposed to the mature definition Spooge offered, if not, it's a tedious and pointless piece of bravado that might even hurt patriotism via the "Man, was I stupid back then." - symptom Kheras noted. Well now, traditions that don't serve a purpose anymore were at all times discontinued. What good reason is there for the continued pledge of alleigance amongst small children? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't speak directly for Kheras but I'll try to interpret the following quote in a way that also explains why children learn and repeat the pledge on a daily basis: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a bit overzealous for my taste. In my experience, we are taught (not brainwashed by) the pledge as a fundamental tool for understanding Citizenship. I say that it's my experience because the history of The Pledge actually relates to remembering Christopher Columbus. I believe the meaning has evolved through the re-wording by Congress and its incorporation into institutional schooling.
There seem to be a few aspects here that aren't translating well outside the U.S. Obviously there is a cultural difference and I'll try to stay away from that meta-discussion. But I would be genuinely interested in how people outside the U.S. react to the word -- Community. Without looking the word up in the dictionary, how would you define it?
Back to Nem's objective reason: Public schools have been charged with the responsibility of teaching and developing children against general State mandated standards so that after graduation, they can move out into their community as productive citizens. Reading, Writing, and Arithmatics are considered the functioning tools for being productive. These skills are started at the fundamental level immediately in a child's school life. But in order to function as a Citizen, they will also need tools for Civics. Every election year we complain about how many people don't actively participate by voting. The importance cannot be overstated in the U.S. society. Let's make another anecdotal comparison: "We shouldn't teach the pledge to students until they're capable of interpreting its meaning!" to me equals "We shouldn't teach geometric shapes to students until they're capable of understanding Trigonometry!".
(bah! I have to go.) In short, The Pledge, as a short, easily repeatable poem is a fundamental tool for developing students to learn the importance of their citizenship. The fact that some people choose later in life, or have the choice made for them by their parents, to rebuke what others see as their obligation to society, is merely a reflection of our open society. It isn't perfect but perfection is a direction, not a goal.
I think Spooge has again put everyone in their place. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I don't know why the flags are being focused on so much, the entire public school system consists of indoctrination into American citizenship, or as Nem put it a form of brainwashing, whether it is a good or bad thing can be debated I guess.
Not bad, but looking around, there'll be lots of other common traits, starting with the boys favorite frosted flakes and ending with TV shows. I found common denominators with Vietnamese, Serbian, Kroatian, Turkish, and Russian pupils in my classes without of any intervention by the school whatsoever.
That is the earlier ones, grades 1-12, you could get a perfectly good education without every stepping foot inside an elementary, jr. high, or highschool.
Well now, traditions that don't serve a purpose anymore were at all times discontinued. What good reason is there for the continued pledge of alleigance amongst small children? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for starters, it ensures that they learn it, which is valuable. (Unless you are proposing that we get rid of anything that is wholly ceremonial.) You say the pledge everyday for the same reason you repeat multiplication tables over and over and learn the same math every year. Virtually every form of learning in elementary school is repetition.
The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation. The motive principle behind it, fostering national pride, is different than fostering patriotism but just living in a place can cause you to feel the former. History and civics endorse duty and loyalty any way you slice 'em. Saying a mantra over and over means less to some, more to others. Hearing point after point from a teacher means something to all (unless you sit around and eat glue).
I'd hazard a point that the folks arguing both sides of the issue (in the states at least), grew up in a time in which patriotism was even more stressed in the classroom and in our environment. The big fight between socialism and capitalism. Movies, TV, what have you all pointed towards we are better, we will win. If such diametric points can evolve in the minds of people, down an almost even slice, in that environment then it'd take a heck of a lot more than saying the pledge every day to subvert free thought. Only around a third of our life is spent in school.
Aha, well I made a bad assumption given a comfort level of acceptable risk. Natch. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> If I were to vote I'd go for Africa or the Middle East, but Europe does encompass Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes so it's close. In recent history technology has pushed open fighting towards muscle flexing because, unlike previous eras, you face some serious damage in a conflict. The days of knights pushing hordes of peasants against one another to determine who gets to bang the king's daughter are gone.
Below, I'm quoting the complete text of the pledge:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I dunno about you, but claiming that American pupils will not learn those three lines unless they're repeated every day during their lower school career seems to border on America-bashing to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kheras+ --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kheras @ )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, then, let them say it once they reach the age to be prosecuted. Again, I'm not arguing about the points of patriotism, nor the use of pledges, but this very specific instance.
Surely you have customs and table manners you can't explain but everyone does it nonetheless. Don't say you were brainwashed into doing the customs either because that's ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was brainwashed into doing the customs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You weren't brainwashed into doing any customs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I know. That was a <b>joke</b>, hence the smiling face. Perhaps one should never joke in this kinds of 'serious' threads. However the beef of my post was
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Give a better example of something useless I do that could be compared to going out and doing something only for the sake of doing it. I can't think of anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously can't think of anything so I would like an concrete example. I think I don't do anything comparable to going outside, citing some words I don't understand and looking at a flag...every day.
Edit: Sorry it took so long time to reply in to your post in the first place. And don't take this so seriously, we are skulk race comrades after all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well now, traditions that don't serve a purpose anymore were at all times discontinued. What good reason is there for the continued pledge of alleigance amongst small children? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't speak directly for Kheras but I'll try to interpret the following quote in a way that also explains why children learn and repeat the pledge on a daily basis:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason we are left for the pledge is that, at some point, you have to say it to be accountable for crimes against the nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a bit overzealous for my taste. In my experience, we are taught (not brainwashed by) the pledge as a fundamental tool for understanding Citizenship. I say that it's my experience because the history of The Pledge actually relates to remembering Christopher Columbus. I believe the meaning has evolved through the re-wording by Congress and its incorporation into institutional schooling.
There seem to be a few aspects here that aren't translating well outside the U.S. Obviously there is a cultural difference and I'll try to stay away from that meta-discussion. But I would be genuinely interested in how people outside the U.S. react to the word -- Community. Without looking the word up in the dictionary, how would you define it?
Back to Nem's objective reason: Public schools have been charged with the responsibility of teaching and developing children against general State mandated standards so that after graduation, they can move out into their community as productive citizens. Reading, Writing, and Arithmatics are considered the functioning tools for being productive. These skills are started at the fundamental level immediately in a child's school life. But in order to function as a Citizen, they will also need tools for Civics. Every election year we complain about how many people don't actively participate by voting. The importance cannot be overstated in the U.S. society.
Let's make another anecdotal comparison: "We shouldn't teach the pledge to students until they're capable of interpreting its meaning!" to me equals "We shouldn't teach geometric shapes to students until they're capable of understanding Trigonometry!".
(bah! I have to go.) In short, The Pledge, as a short, easily repeatable poem is a fundamental tool for developing students to learn the importance of their citizenship. The fact that some people choose later in life, or have the choice made for them by their parents, to rebuke what others see as their obligation to society, is merely a reflection of our open society. It isn't perfect but perfection is a direction, not a goal.
Anyhow, Dread, I didn't realize you were joking... my bad.