Why Is Concedeing Defeat (f4) Becoming Bannable?

Harry_S_TrumanHarry_S_Truman Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
The number of servers starting to ban and kick people that concede defeat and go to the ready room is disturbing me. Now I admit there are times when some players give up way to early when a comeback is possible, but most of the time it's just plain "over" for one side or the other.

I know that when I'm on a losing team and we've been badly beaten, I’d rather go to the ready room and start another game than take the ANOTHER 15 minutes to finish the inevitable. This mostly stands true for the Aliens, cause when you are beat...it's pretty much clear.

Besides, a "last stand" for aliens sucks really hard. Not fun in the very least. One hive versus Heavy Armor Marines...we've all been there.

A last stand for Marines can actually be quite amusing.

Regardless, the whole banning/kicking people for just wanting to start a new game is really only a sore winner perspective as the losers have already admitted they are beat. Just because the winners weren't allowed to humiliate the other team, they get mad and kick/ban people, a very childish reaction. Parents aren’t doing their jobs and teaching children how to win gracefully.
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Comments

  • ZephorZephor Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11547Members, Constellation
    because sometimes you can come back. You waste a game and the enemies hard work if you f4
  • DeronokDeronok Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14613Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 25 2003, 09:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 25 2003, 09:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Parents aren’t doing their jobs and teaching children how to win gracefully. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Because it's called ruining the hard earned victory for the other team. ESP if you're a marine on a PUBLIC server.
  • Harry_S_TrumanHarry_S_Truman Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Deronok+Sep 25 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deronok @ Sep 25 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 25 2003, 09:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 25 2003, 09:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Parents aren’t doing their jobs and teaching children how to win gracefully. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Because it's called ruining the hard earned victory for the other team. ESP if you're a marine on a PUBLIC server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    My point exactly. You still won! You just want the humiliation?
  • Sniper_ChanceSniper_Chance Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10549Members
    There should be no reason for an admin to NOT kick someone for retrying and ruining the game.

    The admins are not being sore losers, the F4/Retry people are. They're not accepting their defeat, and as a result it ruins the game.
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    jeah its stupid.
    voogru plugins make f4 after 5 minutes impossible, kinda sardistic sometimes, with some additional "do it and get banned" rules.

    Best you can do it acting as stupid as possible to make it easier for them to kill you.
  • Major_ChromeMajor_Chrome Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11096Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yea, if a team goes that far to dominate, let them finish you off, its satisfactory for them.

    If say the other team is messing around and refusing to attack after a long period of time, then maybe I can see it, but give them a chance to kill you, they earned it after a hard game.
  • MavericMaveric Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
    edited September 2003
    Ever see the movie where a guy that's really hurt and bleeding is hanging onto a branch over a chasm and there's someone on the cliff's edge with a axe and the guy on the branch wants the guy with the axe to chop the branch but the guy with the axe wont do it and just watches as the guy hangs on and bleeds to death and with his last ounce of strength the guy on the branch just lets go and lets the fall kill him first?


    Do everyone a favour and do a mercy kill...
    F4 when its completely hopeless.

    [Not letting the guy let go (tieing up his arm to the branch) is sadistic and sad.]
  • GrimmGrimm Join Date: 2003-04-13 Member: 15448Members
    Maveric has a point; When the game is over, end it quick. Its rather annoying to know you're screwed, but the other team just toys with you.

    Most common I've seen that the aliens do is Onos and sit near the IPs, stunning and devouring as they respawn. And for the Marines, they usually march some Heavies into the last hive, take out every structure and everyone that spawns, then begins setting up a turret factory right next to the hive.

    Just get in there and finish the job, it will keep people from becoming really sore.
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    I fight to the last just but if you really want the game to end just stand still and have a chat... they'll kill you and the game will end. Why f4? if you're losing that badly and you just stop helping the losing team it'll be over so much quicker and you can yak to all the other dead people who'll join you ever so shortly afterwards =3
  • DeronokDeronok Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14613Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Grimm+Sep 25 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm @ Sep 25 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maveric has a point; When the game is over, end it quick. Its rather annoying to know you're screwed, but the other team just toys with you.

    Most common I've seen that the aliens do is Onos and sit near the IPs, stunning and devouring as they respawn. And for the Marines, they usually march some Heavies into the last hive, take out every structure and everyone that spawns, then begins setting up a turret factory right next to the hive.

    Just get in there and finish the job, it will keep people from becoming really sore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    On the server I admin, if they take too long, even if it's my side, I'll give them a time limit to finish the game. Also no one builds in the last hive, they just march in and unload everything they have into the hive or skulks trying to kill them, same with aliens and spawn camping.
  • ThiefThief Ownage Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19214Members, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    Anyone who F4's or retrys to get out of a loss SHOULD be kicked. That is lame. Your team got owned, take it like a man and let the other team have their spoils of victory. Ever been on a marine team of heavies moving and about to kill the last hive when the game ends? <i>really lame.</i>
  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    So marines <i>should</i> gl-spam the entrance to their base at the end rather than f4?
  • chowderchowder Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12883Members
    Hypothetical:
    Marines are down to their base rt. Whatever ground they gained has been lost. Aliens have 3hives and 6+rt. If you've been in a situation like this you know the following scenario is not only possible, but likely:
    a) some marines want to quit, but fight on
    b) some aliens "haven't had enough fun yet" and make no sincere effort to finish the game. onos begin their eat and run, there is xenocide/gas galore
    c) after some more futility/monotony, some marines f4

    Anyone surprised/angered with the behavior of certain marines and aliens in this situation fails to understand:
    1) this is human nature; some people are not sporting
    2) 2.x unfortunately encourages this due to it's slow endgame configuration; it was far less likely in 1.04

    Griping about how the admins react and how the players act doesn't address the root cause.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    In war3 its considered rude to NOT quit when you know you've lost. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • UnknownUnknown Join Date: 1970-01-01 Member:
    edited September 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Sep 25 2003, 09:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Sep 25 2003, 09:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I fight to the last just but if you really want the game to end just stand still and have a chat... they'll kill you and the game will end.  Why f4?  if you're losing that badly and you just stop helping the losing team it'll be over so much quicker and you can yak to all the other dead people who'll join you ever so shortly afterwards =3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, I have been on both sides.
    I used to think that f4ing to start a new game was lame, it kinda is, when youre STARTING to play with the big toys, the HMGs, the HAs, Jets, etc, and 4 out of 10 people on the alien team f4 and start a new game. Its frustrating at least, but its even MORE frustrating for the losing side.

    We all know nobody likes to lose, and a quick victory is not fun. However, there is no middle term for this. I can't see how chatting in the base is better than going to the readyroom, IMO its worse, mostly on full servers. If you leave, someone could join and fight to the end, but instead, you occupy one slot doing NOTHING. Its as annoying as spectating on full servers.

    We can't please both sides. If we please the winning side, the losing side grow bored and will just leave the server. If we please the losing side, the winners will **** and scream at the mic and the admins will ban you.
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    <!--QuoteBegin---Thief-+Sep 25 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Thief- @ Sep 25 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone who F4's or retrys to get out of a loss <snip> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's not "getting out of a loss", it is still losing, only quicker. Duh. If you're playing chess and you know you've lost, you forfeit. If you're playing poker and know you've lost, you fold.

    Due to the <i>winning</i> team not always finishing at a rapid pace, this is often neccesary. A few times I have seen Aliens F4 just as the Marines start unloading into the last hive, that's kind of pointless since it will be over in 2 seconds anyway but.. who cares?! You won!

    Actually, I'll answer "who cares". The people that care are the ones that find winning more satisfying then playing. The people that will rather have an easy win then a challenge. You find these people stacking the easy side in CS, picking the best classes in all other games and... yes, camping IP's or hives instead of finishing the game in NS.

    Sometimes the F4 is premature. You could still have a chance to win. If this is the case, it is bad character, giving up too easy. Í don't argue that. However, if you think it is "fun" fighting tier 1 opponents when you're at tier 3, I don't have any respect for you. You're not a gamer in the true sense of the word. You don't play to match your wit and skills against others. And since I have no respect for you, I don't care what you think of anyone who doesn't want to be perpetually spawncamped or take part in your childish play.

    I do not mind *at all* when my opponent F4's, unless it is prematurely. The moment I know we've won, the game ceases to be fun for me. It is now just a matter of moving on to next the next game, the next challenge.

    I don't see why people should have to play a boring game that everyone knows how it is going to end, just to satisfy some childish fragwhores. If other admins think that is sporting, so be it. That is a policy I find stupid in the extreme and I would never implement it, or play where it was implemented.


    Ps. I've actually been on a side that is winning huge, several times, and WE F4'd. Now THAT is funny. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MavericMaveric Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
    ponder that you're tieing the aforementioned poor bleeding man to the weak, cracking branch that's over a very large chasm if you belive that F4ing deprives you of a win or a sense of accomplishment.
  • roperope Join Date: 2003-09-17 Member: 20954Members
    Kick people for accepting a loss and trying to restart a new game??? Come on people, most of you are missing the whole point... This is a game meant to be fun, and most of us can definately tell the difference between a hopeless situation and the possiblity of a comeback. If i'm playing on the winning side and we're totally dominating to the point of it being ludicrous I'd rather see the other team forfeit quick so we can start a new match. I like a fun challange to the end, not a drawn out boring domination. I don't blame any team for a foreit when they can't challange the winning side any longer. It doesn't matter if it's by forfeit, the last hive goin down, or the last marine being eaten... We all know when we've won the match and should take satisfaction in that alone. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    I don't enjoy standing around spawn camping people---but I do vastly prefer walking in and shooting the hive to walking towards the hive and suddenly hearing the "game over" music. There is a certain satisfaction involved in actually destroying the enemy base to win, which is completely lost when the enemy team F4s out.

    Most of the time it isnt a problem of the winning team standing around not killing the enemy, but the losing team putting up an annoying last stand, that is just as annoying to the losers as to the winners. Half of the losers think, "why are we bothering to fend of the aliens for these extra 30 minutes when we could just as easily be playing a new game?" While the other half thinks "Haha! Die B****** aliens! You'll never take me alive!"

    Eventually the half that doesn't want to go through a 1/2 hour engame F4s out, and the server assigns an autoloss to the smaller team, which is very unsatisfying to the winning team.
  • MoralDKMoralDK Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13987Members
    I find that the servers who ban for F4 are not that fun in the first place.
    It's tough to say a F4 is never called for.

    Be nice & train the noobs, help the community grow, then well have more servers popping up.
    So we'll all have more freedom to find more servers where we can have more fun with less rules.
  • DoggDogg Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15063Members
    In the international competative gaming world, the clear loser should forfeit and save both players the hassle of finishing the game. This standard is centuries old in board and card games. Only in spectator sports are the losers expected to finish the game.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    If servers kick or ban for an F4......




    Then thats their business, not yours, and as long as you play on that server, you abide by their rules.

    IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.


    Honestly, its like saying Lifecycle On sucks in AvP2, yet you keep playing Lifecycle On games.
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    little kid: "dad... it hurts when i slap myself"
    father: "then don't slap yourself"

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Typhon+Sep 25 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Sep 25 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In war3 its considered rude to NOT quit when you know you've lost. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This, IMO, is the best response to this discussion.

    There are three scenarios for an F4. Two are bad.

    Bad #1) It's frustrating for the winning team to be "cheated" of that triumphant final assault - it's extremely satisfying to charge into the last hive, guns blazing as rings of destructive energy explode around alien chambers from the ASCs at your backs, mowing down skulks left and right with your HMG while the GLs unload on the hive. It's satisfying to follow an Onos into the MS as the turret factory finally goes down, tearing through structures and chuckling at the cries of marines futilely attempting to hold against the onslaught. Having the game suddenly *end* on you, then, is definitely frustrating.

    Bad #2) Your armory has just finished upgrading and the Comm has just dropped the first round of HAs for your team. You suit up and head out, pasting an unprepared pair of gorges building at a node, guarded by a lone skulk. Or you finally get the resources for Onos and start tearing into an electrified node you've been avoiding all game, making short work of the two LA/LMGs who come to its "rescue." All of a sudden, you hear a dramatic chord and find yourself back in the readyroom, because the other team decided it was a lost cause simply because you teched faster than they did for the first 5-10 minutes. There hadn't even been a single major battle yet.

    Those are both bad times to F4. NS is about memorable battles... if I had to pick the two most consistantly memorable moments of a game, they are (1) the first time the big guns come into play and (2) the final assault, the last stand. Cutting those out of the game by F4ing is (in case #1) bad form, and (#2) a quitter's attitude. You don't /kill yourself when you're the last man on your team in CS... you try to take as many of the other team down as you can before they finish you off. Don't F4 in NS just because you don't have the upper hand.

    So when's it good to F4? When, as people have said, your team has no chance but the winning team can't "figure out" how to end the game. Or when the winning team is being lame. I was on an F4-disabled server when a pair of Onos decided to play respawn-devour... it's unfortunate, but I don't play on that server anymore because of that experience.

    To server admins: don't lock F4, and don't auto-ban for F4'ing. Look at the situation first; each is unique.
  • BlackMageBlackMage [citation needed] Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17474Members, Constellation
    well, for the marine f4 i restate my idea
    if there's no ip and no marines on the map, the comm gets a big shiny red button
    hopefully the marines will go for the red button instead of the f4 button

    ps - the red button .... go figure it out <i>einstein</i> *wink* *wink*
  • ZERGZERG Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13132Members, Constellation
    I find banning f4 funny when /quit still works. This like the 10th time I've said this? Well its the last time i promise. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MavericMaveric Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Sep 25 2003, 11:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Sep 25 2003, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find banning f4 funny when /quit still works. This like the 10th time I've said this? Well its the last time i promise. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    "I didn't F4 i /quit!"

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BigDBigD [OldF] Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1596Members
    So, if f4ing becomes a bannable offense, guess what people will do? They will leave the server entirely. Guess what? You're back to square one. Now, next game you have half as many people. And guess what happens at the end of the next game? Half as many people again. Banning/kicking for f4 is the MOST ILLOGICAL idea ever. You people that want the other team to just sit there and wait for you to finish it off are sadistic. GET OVER THE FACT THAT THE GAME IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. It's boring. It's a complete waste of time for the losing team. And most importantly, it's just a **** game. If I own 70% of the board in Monopoly, it doesn't bother me that the other people quit... I mean they could make a comeback. It's depressing to sit there and lose. Sticking it out is expected in professional games, but not in public games.

    "Satistfaction of killing off every last thing".... you people make me sick.
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    before I do this, I just thought I'd point out this isn't the way I feel... I'm just having fun with BigDXLT's post <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, if f4ing becomes a bannable offense, guess what people will do? The F4ers will leave the server entirely. Guess what? You've got rid of them. Now, next game you have half as many people or less who'll F4. And guess what happens at the end of the next game? Half as many or more F4 people again. Banning/kicking for f4 is the MOST LOGICAL idea ever. You people that want the other team to just sit there and watch the victory signs come up without finishing it off are sadistic. GET OVER THE FACT THAT THE GAME IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. It's annoying. It's a complete waste of emotion for the winning team. And most importantly, it's just a **** game. If I don't own 70% of the board in Monopoly, it doesn't bother me that the other people are kicking my bum... I mean I could make a comeback. It's depressing to sit there and have victory soured like this. Sticking it out is expected in professional games, but for some reason not in public games.

    "It's not fair that we have to suffer being beat".... you people make me sick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • KoralzKoralz Join Date: 2003-09-03 Member: 20525Members
    some people belive (like me) its not over tell its over if the game was not really ended then it is not really a win. I think that f4ing is sort of a way to give the other team the finger so to speak like "u couldnt do it". however on the pro side of it some times the other team really does diserve it.... I really dont care if it is or is not, if u get kicked or banned y would u play there anyway? if u think the server mods an **** then dont they diserve the server to go down by LOP?
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