This is only the 300th thread on this topic, so in the time honoured tradition of the people who keep on making these silly threads, i'm just going to paste my reply from the last one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which do you consider the competition, and associated victory to be best represented by in a game of NS:
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps if a few more games were ended when a team actually won, instead of 3 hours afterwards, the average public server player might gain a little more incite into when and how matches are won. Then we won't have to deal with posts complaining about the Marine's inability to fight 2/3 hive aliens, or the Alien's inability to kill HA trains with 1 hive skulks.
If NS is similar to chess, F4ing would be the same as tipping over your king; you acknowldge the other person has won and don't want to prolong the envatable.
It would be more pactical to have F4 only be avaible after X minutes when alines have all hives and/or marines have all technology.
Again, I must reiterate how I am baffled that NS <b><i><u>STILL</u></i></b> does not have a clean method of surrendering. Every single RTS game (hybrid or otherwise) has one. F4ing works to a certain extent, but it's more of a workaround than a real solution.
This is simply an issue upon which people will never agree. Everyone feels differently about it, and that's the way it's going to remain until the end of time. The simple fact is that server admins have their own opinions about how they want things run, and as a result, you must choose a server upon which the rules reflect your style of play.
Coil's post adressed the issue best. F4 only if the other team is being retarded intentionally. When the Aliens send an Onos train into Marine Spawn on tanith while the marines are all out trying futilely to take out a hive without heavy armor, that is where one must say "touche." Ideally, the Onoses kill the turret factory and a few important structures and then nail the IPs. The situation becomes unpleasant when the onoses kill EVERYTHING BUT the IPs. I've also been in the situation Coil describes, where 3 onoses formed a triangle around our last 2 IPs and sat there goring air and stomping and devouring everything that came through. That is not fun for ANYONE on the Marine team, regardless. It shouldn't happen. We F4ed, and the server admin didn't get angry. It was appropriate.
Personally, I enjoy the grenade-spamming, turret-farming endgame enjoyed by losing marines. It's fun, and gives me great practice at hitting onoses (whose hitboxes are somewhat lacking) and near-xenocide skulks. This is my opinion. Some people do not enjoy this scenario.
I don't enjoy when 6 HA marines setup turret factories outside every exit to our last hive and spawncamp for 20 minutes instead of just sieging the damn thing. This is also my opinion. Some people <b>do</b> enjoy this scenario.
Rather than hating on one another over this clearly divided issue, let's just take things on a case-by-case basis and try to coexist, please? If you're in a server that doesn't want you F4ing, don't F4 or don't play. It's simple...
I have seen that a few people have been forgetting some things about the game. Firstly this is a team play game, which means everything you do individually affects the team as a whole. I.e. if you aren’t having fun your f4 could end the game, or cause some other n00b to think its fine.
This happened the other day; marines had a terrible start, relocating base about 3 times before settling down in cargo in ns_hera. marines fought the hardest I have ever seen and we managed to take enough res points to kit out about 5 heavies, in which point we headed for archiving (not taking our time, but moving as fast as we could) after we took out arch, we still had to take out data core and vent. I gave the marines a waypoint straight from arch to data core. They were on the move, not taking their time at all but moving as fast as they could, just as they got to the data core res, I hear the endgame music and we are back to ready room. This was a sad day in history for people who play on that server, not 1 person said we were prolonging the game and because of 3 fools everybody’s game was messed. Aliens could still have fought back, I mean they had like 2 oni and a few fades with 2 hives.
Obviously if the opposing team is deliberately trying to make the game go on longer, a few warnings later f4 is warranted. There is one difference between chess, poker and w3 to ns. The fact is you can always come back. Always. 8 dedicated skulks on a base is mad, they just have to organize themselves. In very few circumstances is it ok to prematurely end a game. This happened once a long time ago. Aliens were trying their hardest to end the game, but just couldn't. Marines had a few jpers and some shotguns in waste on ns_tanith. Admin started a vote and more than the majority voted on the end of the game.
I never f4 ever. I would rather let the other team end it than end it myself. I know a lot of other experienced players that I play with also don’t f4 ever. Personally I think its bad taste and deny the other team of the win they deserve. If a team has fought hard for a win they deserve to end it. Obviously there is that bit about the guy on a branch etc etc, but give the winning side a chance. Maybe what you think is them taking their time, is them trying to get to your hive but they can't with 500 oc's in the way.
Incase you didn't read all that crap, basically lets the winning team win. They deserve it.
I think you havent encountered a very lame situation.Lemme describe it to you.I am VERY experienced in experiencing this.Why once this happened for 4 maps in a row,2 rounds each!
1.At least 75% of the vets,including the better quality ones,rush to aliens.
2.Marines usually end up without a competent comm because most of the vets are on aliens.Not like it matters,since in this situations,its newbies vs vets.
3.Aliens surround marine start,not letting them get out.Periodically attacking.
4.Marines cant get out of base,so they lose.
5.Alien RFK and 8-9 nozzles = fast tech.
6.Even with mass onos/fade at 8-10 minutes,they wait till 3rd hive before making any kind of mass offence.
7.Alien team of lerks,fades,onos,gorgs,whatever you bloody want rush into marine base...wipe out structures....saving CC,IP and maybe armory...then rush out again.
8.Wait till marines spawn.
9.Repeat 7.Ad Infinitum.
10.Marines either f4(and get booed at by the lame,vet stacking alien team who calls them "sore losers" and flames them everytime they see them in the server from that day onwards)or the comm recycles(at which point the aliens scream at the admin to ban the comm).
So yea excuse me if i find the people who say "f4ing is lame!" extremely ridiculous.Except the ones who add the "unless the other team is dragging the game out' line.
<!--QuoteBegin--[-AaO-]Alpha+Sep 26 2003, 04:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([-AaO-]Alpha @ Sep 26 2003, 04:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Incase you didn't read all that crap, basically lets the winning team win. They deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This statement alone shows that you understood basically none of the pro-F4 arguments.
When knowledgeable players F4, the game is ALREADY OVER. One of the teams has ALREADY WON because they have crippled the other past the point of recovery.
The game and the competition are ended. The wrapping up/clean up is the only thing that's left. F4 avoids that, so a fresh new game can start.
I'm just gonna go with tyr on this one... it's another no-win arguement like the chamber first one where everyone has their own opinions and they're not going to convert to anyone elses. You're just as well off arguing about religion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is about memorable battles... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. But what is memorable about being in a situation where the res count is 8-1, both other hives are locked down and the HA is rolling off the production line. It is NOT fun to charge fully upgraded marines as a hive 1 skulk. From that point of the game the aliens <i>will not win</i>. They can't. Even a whole team of oni wouldn't be able to do it. So whats wrong with people on a side not wanted to prolong the inveitable?
Or say the res count is 1-7, the 3rd hive is building and the marines can't even get out of their spawn. Why delay whats coming? Nothing memorable about slaughtering LA-LMG marines with Oni, Fades and Lerks. Again, the marines here <i>will not win</i>. They can't. I personally don't want to spend 15 minutes getting gassed and devoured for a lost cause.
Now I find that the real memorable battles are when the aliens have 2 hives, the marines are at tier 2 and the res count is roughly even. Then you see massive, epic battles with high tech on either side. These are the battles you will always remember.
F4ing is a completly legitimate way of saying to the other side "You have won". It's essentially the option to surrender in NS. Why fight a battle you know you cannot win? It's both unnessassary and unpleasent.
If taken memorable battles in to thought, i'd like 1.04 back. Cuz when we had long battles in 1.04. they lasted for hours. In 2.0 / newer, its max 1 hour. I just like longer games <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> , they were alot of fun.
people just give up far FAR to easy....theres the ones who say the likes of " but i know when its over" well its a team game...i think most of us have seen a alien comeback from one hive vs HA...
when you look at it from the marine POV youll mostly find that they hardly ever loose thier ability to at least hand out some GL towards the endgame...
it is the constant gren spam late game and the few aliens who like to find a nice hiding place to avoud bieng killed who really mess up this masterpiece of a game....someone make some quality bots so we dont have to actually play with such llamas no more....
and lol at the god of a nobend who thinks its no fun to finish a game once he knows (thinks imo) its over... i suppose youll want the devs to remove the end game in future releases...
anyway.. board at work.. naff topic ... passes some time tho <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--$niper Chance+Sep 25 2003, 09:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ($niper Chance @ Sep 25 2003, 09:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There should be no reason for an admin to NOT kick someone for retrying and ruining the game.
The admins are not being sore losers, the F4/Retry people are. They're not accepting their defeat, and as a result it ruins the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a stupid statement. Hitting F4 IS accepting defeat! The team that drops loses, so how is this being a sore loser?
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Sep 25 2003, 10:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Sep 25 2003, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I'll answer "who cares". The people that care are the ones that find winning more satisfying then playing. The people that will rather have an easy win then a challenge. You find these people stacking the easy side in CS, picking the best classes in all other games and... yes, camping IP's or hives instead of finishing the game in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Cxwf+Sep 25 2003, 11:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Sep 25 2003, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Eventually the half that doesn't want to go through a 1/2 hour engame F4s out, and the server assigns an autoloss to the smaller team, which is very unsatisfying to the winning team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's YOUR problem. Do you think the losing side is satisfied with the humiliation you want to inflict just because you are winning.
Like I said before, Alien endgames are terrible. No one wants to play Aliens when the Marines have a 2 Hive lockdown and a HA train is coming towards your third. You know you don't have a chance.
Marines on the other hand, once they tech up they can't lose anything, so the "last stand" can actually be kinda fun, if not repetitive sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Sep 26 2003, 10:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Sep 26 2003, 10:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it's helpful to compare NS to sex. Finishing a round of ns is like finishing up with your lady.
How would you feel if moments before the big climax, she pushes you off, and goes to sleep, telling you that you can try again tomorrow? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--wRaven+Sep 26 2003, 03:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wRaven @ Sep 26 2003, 03:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If NS is similar to chess, F4ing would be the same as tipping over your king; you acknowldge the other person has won and don't want to prolong the envatable.
It would be more pactical to have F4 only be avaible after X minutes when alines have all hives and/or marines have all technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But the difference is that you are not the king you a bishop or possibly the rook, when someone f4's it is <i>not</i> a surrender it is only penalizing the team that is probably at a disadvantage already.
That said sometimes it is over, and it is time to not bunker down and lose gracefully.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Sep 25 2003, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Sep 25 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin---Thief-+Sep 25 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Thief- @ Sep 25 2003, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone who F4's or retrys to get out of a loss <snip> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not "getting out of a loss", it is still losing, only quicker. Duh. If you're playing chess and you know you've lost, you forfeit. If you're playing poker and know you've lost, you fold.
Due to the <i>winning</i> team not always finishing at a rapid pace, this is often neccesary. A few times I have seen Aliens F4 just as the Marines start unloading into the last hive, that's kind of pointless since it will be over in 2 seconds anyway but.. who cares?! You won!
Actually, I'll answer "who cares". The people that care are the ones that find winning more satisfying then playing. The people that will rather have an easy win then a challenge. You find these people stacking the easy side in CS, picking the best classes in all other games and... yes, camping IP's or hives instead of finishing the game in NS.
Sometimes the F4 is premature. You could still have a chance to win. If this is the case, it is bad character, giving up too easy. Í don't argue that. However, if you think it is "fun" fighting tier 1 opponents when you're at tier 3, I don't have any respect for you. You're not a gamer in the true sense of the word. You don't play to match your wit and skills against others. And since I have no respect for you, I don't care what you think of anyone who doesn't want to be perpetually spawncamped or take part in your childish play.
I do not mind *at all* when my opponent F4's, unless it is prematurely. The moment I know we've won, the game ceases to be fun for me. It is now just a matter of moving on to next the next game, the next challenge.
I don't see why people should have to play a boring game that everyone knows how it is going to end, just to satisfy some childish fragwhores. If other admins think that is sporting, so be it. That is a policy I find stupid in the extreme and I would never implement it, or play where it was implemented.
Ps. I've actually been on a side that is winning huge, several times, and WE F4'd. Now THAT is funny. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eloquent as ever Stoney. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I agree 100%.
Stoneburg's got it. And lol to SuperMunchkin, good answer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Sometimes, perhaps it can be justified, but usually it's just plain annoyance, maybe it's not annoying for you Stoneburg, but as you can see, others finds it annoying
whats the problem...I mean f4 is like a white flag.You surrender,the other team wins. Be happy that you won and thats it.You dont have to have fun by whopping 500 skulks with HA and GL.Let them f4 for christs sake.
F4 has to be the lamest way of surrendering. It brutally interrupts the game just as it grows more enjoyable for the winning team.
The alien defeat situation seems frustrating , but it doesn't mean you can't do anything. Surprise attacks can sometimes destroy the marine base (onos with gorge support) especially when the HA train is reaching your last hive (and it's a bad idea to frontally attack HAs as a hive 1 onos)
HAs aren't invincible , and you can still hope to take them down as a skulk. It's just so satisfying to score the last frag as your hive is dying... so don't F4 as an alien , you can be missing much.
A strong resistance is the norm for a defeated marine team. It's their base , they defend it until they are overrun. Since abuses like the armory-assisted GL spam are gone , there's no reason to not use every single possibility to survive. It's a challenge for the aliens. CC blocking isn't that lame , even on Tanith : skulks and fades can always run through them , gorges and onos can even destroy them.
Don't F4 as a marine , it is possible to knife fades or even onos. Think about the glory... As for being stomp/devoured , it's up to you to reach the CC (you can enter it while being stomped I think) and recycle the IPs. If the aliens have more fair-play , you aren't defenseless when they try to parasite you to death. Anyway , it can't last for very long.
Community wants a surrender option...hey this would keep the f4 lammers from causing havoc, right?
If you get banned for F4, that was the server admin, take it up with them!
You will always have those in favor of F4 and those that are not, both sides will argue, and no one will get there point accross, I see reasons for both...and these little discussions will always pop up.
Personally I never F4, surrender, concede, tip my king, give up, or quit. I fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, at any moment someone can screw up, a team can send in 5 onos to get killed, a check mate is right around the corner...giving up is for the weak, which I am not...fight tooth and nail to the bitter end.
As far as lammers that prolong the game, they are as bad as people that F4 and will get a ban from me as well. You just took out all RT's, TF's, Obs, but you left the obs, and comm chair....yeah you are gonna be comming back to my server....
You guys are talking about F4 bothering the OTHER team. My problem with F4ing is when it's done on MY team. In 1.04, my team went from 6 people to 2 people (for some reason it didn't concedde). I knew we still had a chance and I begged the last guy to not leave. He didn't and we were holding our own against as much as 7 marines. Slowly our teammates trickled back into the game as they saw us winning and we eventually won. THOSE are the situations that F4 bothers me. When I KNOW we have a chance but some players are so demoralized they quit on us. I've been in many situations where I knew we could win when others were saying to F4 and we eventually win. I've been in an equal amount of situations where I knew we could still win and my team F4s.
I don't mind conceding when I know we've lost, but it's a subjective measurement.
Like someone said earlier, there isn't a formal way of conceding in NS. I think I would feel better if there was a vote_forfeit command or something that pops up for people to choose. Then it can display a message that the marines retreated/abandoned the station/ship or that the Kharaa jumped out of the airlock. heh.. I don't know. Something formal instead of "F4".
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which do you consider the competition, and associated victory to be best represented by in a game of NS:
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps if a few more games were ended when a team actually won, instead of 3 hours afterwards, the average public server player might gain a little more incite into when and how matches are won. Then we won't have to deal with posts complaining about the Marine's inability to fight 2/3 hive aliens, or the Alien's inability to kill HA trains with 1 hive skulks.
I just realized something, actually...
THIS is why we have NS:Combat coming...
:o
It would be more pactical to have F4 only be avaible after X minutes when alines have all hives and/or marines have all technology.
Coil's post adressed the issue best. F4 only if the other team is being retarded intentionally. When the Aliens send an Onos train into Marine Spawn on tanith while the marines are all out trying futilely to take out a hive without heavy armor, that is where one must say "touche." Ideally, the Onoses kill the turret factory and a few important structures and then nail the IPs. The situation becomes unpleasant when the onoses kill EVERYTHING BUT the IPs. I've also been in the situation Coil describes, where 3 onoses formed a triangle around our last 2 IPs and sat there goring air and stomping and devouring everything that came through. That is not fun for ANYONE on the Marine team, regardless. It shouldn't happen. We F4ed, and the server admin didn't get angry. It was appropriate.
Personally, I enjoy the grenade-spamming, turret-farming endgame enjoyed by losing marines. It's fun, and gives me great practice at hitting onoses (whose hitboxes are somewhat lacking) and near-xenocide skulks. This is my opinion. Some people do not enjoy this scenario.
I don't enjoy when 6 HA marines setup turret factories outside every exit to our last hive and spawncamp for 20 minutes instead of just sieging the damn thing. This is also my opinion. Some people <b>do</b> enjoy this scenario.
Rather than hating on one another over this clearly divided issue, let's just take things on a case-by-case basis and try to coexist, please? If you're in a server that doesn't want you F4ing, don't F4 or don't play. It's simple...
This happened the other day; marines had a terrible start, relocating base about 3 times before settling down in cargo in ns_hera. marines fought the hardest I have ever seen and we managed to take enough res points to kit out about 5 heavies, in which point we headed for archiving (not taking our time, but moving as fast as we could) after we took out arch, we still had to take out data core and vent. I gave the marines a waypoint straight from arch to data core. They were on the move, not taking their time at all but moving as fast as they could, just as they got to the data core res, I hear the endgame music and we are back to ready room. This was a sad day in history for people who play on that server, not 1 person said we were prolonging the game and because of 3 fools everybody’s game was messed. Aliens could still have fought back, I mean they had like 2 oni and a few fades with 2 hives.
Obviously if the opposing team is deliberately trying to make the game go on longer, a few warnings later f4 is warranted. There is one difference between chess, poker and w3 to ns. The fact is you can always come back. Always. 8 dedicated skulks on a base is mad, they just have to organize themselves. In very few circumstances is it ok to prematurely end a game. This happened once a long time ago. Aliens were trying their hardest to end the game, but just couldn't. Marines had a few jpers and some shotguns in waste on ns_tanith. Admin started a vote and more than the majority voted on the end of the game.
I never f4 ever. I would rather let the other team end it than end it myself. I know a lot of other experienced players that I play with also don’t f4 ever. Personally I think its bad taste and deny the other team of the win they deserve. If a team has fought hard for a win they deserve to end it. Obviously there is that bit about the guy on a branch etc etc, but give the winning side a chance. Maybe what you think is them taking their time, is them trying to get to your hive but they can't with 500 oc's in the way.
Incase you didn't read all that crap, basically lets the winning team win. They deserve it.
Alpha
I think you havent encountered a very lame situation.Lemme describe it to you.I am VERY experienced in experiencing this.Why once this happened for 4 maps in a row,2 rounds each!
1.At least 75% of the vets,including the better quality ones,rush to aliens.
2.Marines usually end up without a competent comm because most of the vets are on aliens.Not like it matters,since in this situations,its newbies vs vets.
3.Aliens surround marine start,not letting them get out.Periodically attacking.
4.Marines cant get out of base,so they lose.
5.Alien RFK and 8-9 nozzles = fast tech.
6.Even with mass onos/fade at 8-10 minutes,they wait till 3rd hive before making any kind of mass offence.
7.Alien team of lerks,fades,onos,gorgs,whatever you bloody want rush into marine base...wipe out structures....saving CC,IP and maybe armory...then rush out again.
8.Wait till marines spawn.
9.Repeat 7.Ad Infinitum.
10.Marines either f4(and get booed at by the lame,vet stacking alien team who calls them "sore losers" and flames them everytime they see them in the server from that day onwards)or the comm recycles(at which point the aliens scream at the admin to ban the comm).
So yea excuse me if i find the people who say "f4ing is lame!" extremely ridiculous.Except the ones who add the "unless the other team is dragging the game out' line.
This statement alone shows that you understood basically none of the pro-F4 arguments.
When knowledgeable players F4, the game is ALREADY OVER. One of the teams has ALREADY WON because they have crippled the other past the point of recovery.
The game and the competition are ended. The wrapping up/clean up is the only thing that's left. F4 avoids that, so a fresh new game can start.
You're just as well off arguing about religion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree. But what is memorable about being in a situation where the res count is 8-1, both other hives are locked down and the HA is rolling off the production line. It is NOT fun to charge fully upgraded marines as a hive 1 skulk. From that point of the game the aliens <i>will not win</i>. They can't. Even a whole team of oni wouldn't be able to do it. So whats wrong with people on a side not wanted to prolong the inveitable?
Or say the res count is 1-7, the 3rd hive is building and the marines can't even get out of their spawn. Why delay whats coming? Nothing memorable about slaughtering LA-LMG marines with Oni, Fades and Lerks. Again, the marines here <i>will not win</i>. They can't. I personally don't want to spend 15 minutes getting gassed and devoured for a lost cause.
Now I find that the real memorable battles are when the aliens have 2 hives, the marines are at tier 2 and the res count is roughly even. Then you see massive, epic battles with high tech on either side. These are the battles you will always remember.
F4ing is a completly legitimate way of saying to the other side "You have won". It's essentially the option to surrender in NS. Why fight a battle you know you cannot win? It's both unnessassary and unpleasent.
when you look at it from the marine POV youll mostly find that they hardly ever loose thier ability to at least hand out some GL towards the endgame...
it is the constant gren spam late game and the few aliens who like to find a nice hiding place to avoud bieng killed who really mess up this masterpiece of a game....someone make some quality bots so we dont have to actually play with such llamas no more....
and lol at the god of a nobend who thinks its no fun to finish a game once he knows (thinks imo) its over... i suppose youll want the devs to remove the end game in future releases...
anyway.. board at work.. naff topic ... passes some time tho <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The admins are not being sore losers, the F4/Retry people are. They're not accepting their defeat, and as a result it ruins the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a stupid statement. Hitting F4 IS accepting defeat! The team that drops loses, so how is this being a sore loser?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo!!
That's YOUR problem. Do you think the losing side is satisfied with the humiliation you want to inflict just because you are winning.
Like I said before, Alien endgames are terrible. No one wants to play Aliens when the Marines have a 2 Hive lockdown and a HA train is coming towards your third. You know you don't have a chance.
Marines on the other hand, once they tech up they can't lose anything, so the "last stand" can actually be kinda fun, if not repetitive sometimes.
How would you feel if moments before the big climax, she pushes you off, and goes to sleep, telling you that you can try again tomorrow?
How would you feel if moments before the big climax, she pushes you off, and goes to sleep, telling you that you can try again tomorrow? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
It would be more pactical to have F4 only be avaible after X minutes when alines have all hives and/or marines have all technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the difference is that you are not the king you a bishop or possibly the rook, when someone f4's it is <i>not</i> a surrender it is only penalizing the team that is probably at a disadvantage already.
That said sometimes it is over, and it is time to not bunker down and lose gracefully.
It's not "getting out of a loss", it is still losing, only quicker. Duh. If you're playing chess and you know you've lost, you forfeit. If you're playing poker and know you've lost, you fold.
Due to the <i>winning</i> team not always finishing at a rapid pace, this is often neccesary. A few times I have seen Aliens F4 just as the Marines start unloading into the last hive, that's kind of pointless since it will be over in 2 seconds anyway but.. who cares?! You won!
Actually, I'll answer "who cares". The people that care are the ones that find winning more satisfying then playing. The people that will rather have an easy win then a challenge. You find these people stacking the easy side in CS, picking the best classes in all other games and... yes, camping IP's or hives instead of finishing the game in NS.
Sometimes the F4 is premature. You could still have a chance to win. If this is the case, it is bad character, giving up too easy. Í don't argue that. However, if you think it is "fun" fighting tier 1 opponents when you're at tier 3, I don't have any respect for you. You're not a gamer in the true sense of the word. You don't play to match your wit and skills against others. And since I have no respect for you, I don't care what you think of anyone who doesn't want to be perpetually spawncamped or take part in your childish play.
I do not mind *at all* when my opponent F4's, unless it is prematurely. The moment I know we've won, the game ceases to be fun for me. It is now just a matter of moving on to next the next game, the next challenge.
I don't see why people should have to play a boring game that everyone knows how it is going to end, just to satisfy some childish fragwhores. If other admins think that is sporting, so be it. That is a policy I find stupid in the extreme and I would never implement it, or play where it was implemented.
Ps. I've actually been on a side that is winning huge, several times, and WE F4'd. Now THAT is funny. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eloquent as ever Stoney. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I agree 100%.
Be happy that you won and thats it.You dont have to have fun by whopping 500 skulks with HA and GL.Let them f4 for christs sake.
The alien defeat situation seems frustrating , but it doesn't mean you can't do anything. Surprise attacks can sometimes destroy the marine base (onos with gorge support) especially when the HA train is reaching your last hive (and it's a bad idea to frontally attack HAs as a hive 1 onos)
HAs aren't invincible , and you can still hope to take them down as a skulk. It's just so satisfying to score the last frag as your hive is dying... so don't F4 as an alien , you can be missing much.
A strong resistance is the norm for a defeated marine team. It's their base , they defend it until they are overrun. Since abuses like the armory-assisted GL spam are gone , there's no reason to not use every single possibility to survive. It's a challenge for the aliens. CC blocking isn't that lame , even on Tanith : skulks and fades can always run through them , gorges and onos can even destroy them.
Don't F4 as a marine , it is possible to knife fades or even onos. Think about the glory... As for being stomp/devoured , it's up to you to reach the CC (you can enter it while being stomped I think) and recycle the IPs. If the aliens have more fair-play , you aren't defenseless when they try to parasite you to death. Anyway , it can't last for very long.
Community wants a surrender option...hey this would keep the f4 lammers from causing havoc, right?
If you get banned for F4, that was the server admin, take it up with them!
You will always have those in favor of F4 and those that are not, both sides will argue, and no one will get there point accross, I see reasons for both...and these little discussions will always pop up.
Personally I never F4, surrender, concede, tip my king, give up, or quit. I fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, at any moment someone can screw up, a team can send in 5 onos to get killed, a check mate is right around the corner...giving up is for the weak, which I am not...fight tooth and nail to the bitter end.
As far as lammers that prolong the game, they are as bad as people that F4 and will get a ban from me as well. You just took out all RT's, TF's, Obs, but you left the obs, and comm chair....yeah you are gonna be comming back to my server....
I don't mind conceding when I know we've lost, but it's a subjective measurement.
Like someone said earlier, there isn't a formal way of conceding in NS. I think I would feel better if there was a vote_forfeit command or something that pops up for people to choose. Then it can display a message that the marines retreated/abandoned the station/ship or that the Kharaa jumped out of the airlock. heh.. I don't know. Something formal instead of "F4".