The term "containment" gets thrown around a lot during discussions of the merits of ye olde SC. It's probably worth discussing this notion a bit. There are two general varieties of this:
Strategic containment - the goal here is to make the map generally hostile to marine movement. Sensory and ambushes excel in this regard.
Tactical containment - the goal here is to prevent the marines from passing a certain chokepoint, or reaching a certain destination. Sensory and ambushes suck it in this regard.
Here's the deal. Let's say each team has P number of players.
If the alien team is holed up in one chokepoint, the pending skirmish is P against P-1 (rines - comm) players. However, since the aliens are all bunched up together, one scanner sweep removes the SC advantage.
If the alien team is spread out across N choke points, then SCs once again become useful, but the pending skirmish is now P/N against P-1.
So let's say the aliens are doing absolutely nothing but setting up ambushes in 4 (random, moving) locations, and the game is 12 v 12. Each time the rines get ambushed, it's 11 marines vs 3 aliens. Cloaked or no, the aliens are going to get steamrolled.
But if the alien team is good, they will notify their entire team of large marine movements.
Anyway, 3 good skulks will kill at least 4 of those 11 marines- which is a ratio id glady take- since it removes 4 marines from a foward position, a position that the alien can quickly return to.
Besides, when does the entire marine team go to one WP? Usually successful marine teams employ smaller squads to go carry out missions, unless its a game critical mission- (taking a hive, etc)
<!--QuoteBegin--Bugler+Oct 14 2003, 09:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bugler @ Oct 14 2003, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides, when does the entire marine team go to one WP? Usually successful marine teams employ smaller squads to go carry out missions, unless its a game critical mission- (taking a hive, etc) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eggzachary.
There seems to be a general pattern of counters.
Aliens open with fast expansion. Marines counter with slash-and-burn. Aliens counter with strategic containment. Marines counter by moving en mass to a critical location and securing it. Aliens counter by assaulting the MS or the outpost.
So, yes, strategic containment will shut down slash and burn. But strategic containment is countered by the marines moving in a large group and turtling in a key location (hive or double res). Once the marines no longer need to move around the map, what are the aliens going to do? Ambush each other?
I should also note here that strategic containment is just a general approach to defense.
It doesn't require SCs, as hiding in the rafters and waiting is only one way of doing it.
Using active scouts, parasite, and skulk mobility to respond to marine movement is another. If the team takes this approach, they'd be better served by MCs (for silence and celerity) or DCs (for raw combat capability).
<!--QuoteBegin--Deacon+Oct 14 2003, 07:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deacon @ Oct 14 2003, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Strategic containment - the goal here is to make the map generally hostile to marine movement. Sensory and ambushes excel in this regard.
Tactical containment - the goal here is to prevent the marines from passing a certain chokepoint, or reaching a certain destination. Sensory and ambushes suck it in this regard. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if you ment it to sound like this, but if Strategic containment is to use ambushes across the map to prevent general marine expantion, and Tactical containment is defending a certin locations with ambushes. Then wouldn't Tactical containment be a sub group of strategic containment. And thus, if sensory is good at the main, it is also good at all of its sub groups. After all, you seem to make it sound like strategic is seting up ambushes at multipule locations, while tactical is setting up ambushes at a single location.
I'm not saying this because I believe in sensory chambers first, or because I believe in defence chambers first. I use to believe in movement chambers first, but then I wised up. Now I believe in what ever chamber is best for the use against the tactic that the marines are using. True the marine can adapt, but that takes time. Build orders are changed, resources are moved around, marine locations and engagement rules change. The command is not siting on a switch that says "hit if aliens are using chamber X". The commander is siting on tons of switchs that each do little things. I pick what ever chamber forces him to flip the most switchs....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stoneburg is like a super size at mickey d's..... it leaves a real bad taste is your mouth.
You call out people for being irrational sc supporters, yet you post constant manure like this:
"It's embarrasing really. The majority of people who likes sensory first are n00bs of the worst kind, who's contributions to the forum are usually badly spelled inane statements that are either blatantly obvious or horibly inaccurate, the rest are just not able to process the information given to them, or basing their opinins on how he managed to beat Larry, the retarded sloth and his pet rat on some obscure server."
then you proceed to tell us about how you had this awesome game and you came back and beat sensory.
The simple truth is, its very hard to beat a organized team of cloaked skulks. Say they throw up a sc early on eclipse, a couple of them upgrade cloaking, and wait in the halls outside the marine base. Oh right, youll say the comm can just comsat, but first off, does he really know where to comsat before the marines are attacked? No. And if he does afterwards, the marines have already been killed. If the aliens are good, theyll switch up their ambush points. Theres no way to comsat every time a train of marines walks to a point on the map- sure you can comsat once they reach that point( say a hive they're trying to lock down) but thats the point- they dont get there- since a good alien team will hit them on the way there. Also, the fact that SC is bad at taking defended marine posts is irrelevent, since a GOOD alien team will contain the marine team around their base and allow them very few res nodes. The sc argument is by no means "debunked", perhaps in your head you've already dimissed it, but that doesnt mean its bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Yes, YES. I always wondered what people thought to this, because every time I said this in a Sensory debate thread, nobody responded and the thread died.
Basically, to sum it up, people are complaining that Sensory is weak as heck because you can't fight a two hive lockdown.
But they never seem to ask this: If you chose Sensory, how the heck the marines get two hives??? Sensory is THE anti-marine expansion chamber, unlike DC, which is offensive (Interestingly enough), and the MC, which is also offensive.
The way you use Sensory is being flexible and having teamwork. Ambush them where they don't expect to get ambushed and you'll be fine. If you put a Sensory in double node and wait for them there, they'll be expecting an ambush. If you put a Sensory somewhere in the hallways towards double node, BANG, they're gone.
People say obs COMPLETELY negates Sensory. Maybe if you put them side by side, yes, but otherwise the Obs has to scan every little inch of the map, and I rarely see comms with enough obs to do that.
All in all, MCs have their points, people only odn't like them because of the chamber itself and not its upgrades, the DCs have their points, and the SCs do too. Flayra added cloaked walking not because Sensory was absolutely useless, but because the skill of Cloaking was absolutely terrible to what the chamber could do. Letting you move slowly with cloak allows you to move around and not have to use a DC everywhere.
I can't take this anymore. I'm tired of telling the same nubs who don't/can't realize that SENSORY. BLOWS.!
In your example of why marines would push out and conquer you:
They scan cloak infested area. Aliens are all revealed, marines walk in, slughter and any skulks, and kill the chamber. Wash rinse repeat. You are screwed out of a chamber, but more importantly, the marines will take that locale, such as a res node, a hive, or something else vitally important.
It happens, EVERY, SINGLE, GAME that sensory is used!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Machiavelli+Oct 14 2003, 11:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Machiavelli @ Oct 14 2003, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then wouldn't Tactical containment be a sub group of strategic containment. And thus, if sensory is good at the main, it is also good at all of its sub groups. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not so much, no.
If the entire alien team is bunched up at a chokepoint, then their cloaking can be negated with a single scan.
Let's take a simplest-possible-case. Pretend you're playing on a map that's a giant figure-8. Aliens are at the top, marines at the bottom.
The only location where the aliens can ambush with 100% of their forces, and with 100% certainty of catching the marines, is at the very center. Since the marine commander knows this, it's trivial to scan there, and negate the benefit of SCs.
The aliens can mass-ambush at one of the 4 legs that make up the internal X of the map, but then there's a 50% chance the marines might bypass the ambush. The aliens can split their forces between two of the legs, but then both alien groups are at 50% effectiveness.
In actual NS maps, the aliens would need to camp far more than two passages to lock the marines out of all possible interesting map areas.
Forlorn- I think it's rather obvious you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll reword it.
"They scan cloak infested area. Aliens are all revealed, marines walk in, slughter and any skulks, and kill the chamber. Wash rinse repeat. You are screwed out of a chamber, but more importantly, the marines will take that locale, such as a res node, a hive, or something else vitally important."
Cloak infested area? Where is the cloak infested area? Pretend your the comm. I need direction sir! Could you please direct me to the " CLOAK INFESTED AREA".
HEY SHERLOCK, NO **** CLOAKING SUCKS if the aliens stand in one room and stay there the whole game. That's like me saying carapace sucks because if the alien just stands still, the marines will shoot it and kill it, regardless of armor.
I think a lot of people on the thread just need to play some more games as marines against SC with good aliens- to truly experience the pain of a cloaked alien team, especially on a pub server.
I am not here to get into a debate about which chamber is the best or worst.
I am here to say that when aliens throw up a SC early on, and I am comm it puts me on the defensive, all of a sudden, my upggrades stop, I am forced to ping every hallway, I am forced to put down obs all over the place, and I am forced to spend time and res trying to counter the sc, that I dont even notice when something gets taken down.
I'm a movement guy because i truely believe in constant healthy-dose of rush on all marine outpost but that's just the way i play....Then again I play pubs only....so
<!--QuoteBegin--Catpoker+Oct 15 2003, 11:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catpoker @ Oct 15 2003, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EDIT: I FREAKING HATE SC FIRST AS COMM!!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed as do I, it makes the games too easy to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Indeed as do I, it makes the games too easy to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
C'mon forlorn, where's your sense of competition? You didn't even reply to Bugler's argument against you. I don't think that means you gave up, seeing this quote I just stuck here.
Why the heck would you need to scan the cloak infested area if you obviously knew where the cloaked kharaa were? That means you could see them already, and that means you didn't need to scan it.
It seems that even though Flayra has added the "cloak walk", everyone still believes that if you use a Sensory chamber, you must stick near it to be dangerous. Nuh-uh. Not anymore. If a skulk that learned cloaking (Yep, they do that in 2.01) hid in some random hall that your marines just happened to pass by, would you jerk out of your comm chair and go "DONT GO THERE THERE"S A SKULK I KNOW IT BECAUSE I AM PSYHCIC11"?
....I don't think so. You'd have to scan the area to know a skulk was there. And why would you scan the area...if you didn't know the skulk was there? And if you did know that the skulk was there, how? You obviously didn't scan it to find the skulk, because that would mean you already knew where he was and had no need to scan. Therefore, the thing here is this: Cloaking is never completely counterable unless you can always keep the entire map pinged or have observatories in every single room.
Well, while I'm at it, I'll stick in my other argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only location where the aliens can ambush with 100% of their forces, and with 100% certainty of catching the marines, is at the very center. Since the marine commander knows this, it's trivial to scan there, and negate the benefit of SCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just like you say that a good comm will know that the kharaa want to protect an important area, good kharaa will also know that the good commander knows that. Therefore, why would they prepare to ambush marines in a spot they knew would be scanned? Here's the answer: They won't. They'll stick in hallways, next to your buildings, anywhere that the commander WON'T expect. That's if they're good.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bugler+Oct 15 2003, 10:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bugler @ Oct 15 2003, 10:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cloak infested area? Where is the cloak infested area? Pretend your the comm. I need direction sir! Could you please direct me to the " CLOAK INFESTED AREA".
HEY SHERLOCK, NO **** CLOAKING SUCKS if the aliens stand in one room and stay there the whole game. That's like me saying carapace sucks because if the alien just stands still, the marines will shoot it and kill it, regardless of armor.
I think a lot of people on the thread just need to play some more games as marines against SC with good aliens- to truly experience the pain of a cloaked alien team, especially on a pub server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, I've played more games with sensory than you have played NS, I'd wager.
Anyhow. You don't build sensory chambers in hallways, because marines will stumble on them and destroy them.
Therefore, sensory chambers must be built in open area's to hide them, or in vents over open area's or something like that.
I challenge you to name any area you can protect with a sensory chamber and where I can't find it as a comm.
I just scan once, twice, and POOF goes the chamber. I will find it, and my marines will kill it.
It's incredably simple.
And just to let you know, scan's affect roughly 1.5 times the area's a sensory chamber can cover with cloak. I can say I've never missed uncovering a sensory chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyhow. You don't build sensory chambers in hallways, because marines will stumble on them and destroy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*ahem* Anyhow. I didn't mention anything about building sensory chambers in hallways. The upgrade cloaking, with its ability to cloak walk, should compensate enough for that.'
Unlike what seems to be popular, just because you have Sensory Chambers to cloak you doesn't mean you don't need cloaking. Just like just because movement chambers give you energy doesn't mean you don't need adrenaline.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just scan once, twice, and POOF goes the chamber. I will find it, and my marines will kill it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know many comms that know how to scan once, twice, and somehow find my kharaa that wasn't in the double node, but sitting a little past the entrance where they didn't expect me.
Ok about the whole premise of this thead, the "we lack strategy" issue. What if, alien strategy has less to do with what chamber is chosen and more to do with the individual actions each player chooses to do? In most games MC or DC is chosen first, than MC or DC is chosen second. So what your trying to do is get to the second hive so the team has MC and DC, so chamber tactics don't really matter that much. It's the players, not the chamber, that will get you there(that doesn't mean you should go SC first or second though).
Not that this thread was supposed to be a "sensory" first thread, but the reason I asked the team for sensory first wasn't so much for the skulks to cloak.
Lately i'v noticed as a gorge that OC's really come into there own early and mid game with a sensory. You drop one sensory in an area and then spread out numerous OC's.
Never make a wall with them, that way your OC's protect each other and marines don't find them all easily. My last game two OC's and a sensory took out no less then 8 marines over time. Sure it probibly didn't pay for itself (30 Rez is a lot) But it denied an area so well that it was worth the cost. (At Mid game I did drop 1 DC into the mix.)
Before people say things like, "Well a good commander.." lets face the facts. There are not that many good commanders, there are not that many truely good players. If you as a commander could easily counter this, then great. But the fact of the matter was the comm in my example didn't know how many chambers I actually dropped and was busy securing other area's. It wasn't until late game when the Heavies walked threw that those OC's were lost.
Sen. makes OC's into killers, Def. makes them into walls.
<!--QuoteBegin--Techen+Oct 20 2003, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Techen @ Oct 20 2003, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before people say things like, "Well a good commander.." lets face the facts. There are not that many good commanders, there are not that many truely good players. If you as a commander could easily counter this, then great. But the fact of the matter was the comm in my example didn't know how many chambers I actually dropped and was busy securing other area's. It wasn't until late game when the Heavies walked threw that those OC's were lost.
Sen. makes OC's into killers, Def. makes them into walls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know many comms that know how to scan once, twice, and somehow find my kharaa that wasn't in the double node, but sitting a little past the entrance where they didn't expect me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you both need to "face the facts", and that relying on the fact of an incompetant commander as your winning strategy is indeed a lame argument. Assume the best out of oppionents.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 20 2003, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2003, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you both need to "face the facts", and that relying on the fact of an incompetant commander as your winning strategy is indeed a lame argument. Assume the best out of oppionents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not that we need bad commanders. Its just the fact that when people talk about sensories there effectivness is dependent on when it is dropped and how apt the commander is at countering it.
Sensory is never negated by a good comm, but a bad comm will find its effects overpowering.
I just get sick and tired of hearing people say things like, "Oh sensory first. It sucks, all you need is a good commander ..." I just wish people would, "Face the Facts", and relying on a good commander as a counter strategy for sensory is a lame argument. Assume the best out of opponents.
hits self on head WHAM WHAM <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
forlorn- gek just established that this situation would involve the upgrade cloaking - not a sense chamber.... if a skulk is cloaked at any given point on a map, you have no clue where he is. You can guess, but thats a hell of a lot of guessing on big NS maps. Besides, what are you going to do, scan in front of your infantry train, then have them move up 30 feet? lol..... also, with cloak-walk in 2.0, the aliens dont even need to be stationary. You could scan an area, they could wait outside for 6 seconds, then walk in and kill ya.
OCs never "come into their own" their hitboxes are bigger than from where they can shoot, search for some threads or try it yourself if you don't believe me. <b><u>CLOAKED</u></b> (im frightened) OCs, have a startling effect for the first hit, then I back off and take them down one at a time.
All the comm has to do is rely on your inability to attack, base is pretty safe bcause their should be an obs there anyway; So the secures some important area with an obs and the upgrades you get from an obs entirely negate the ambush tactics. MT you will see the ambush coming, PG, screw the ambush just travel by at the speed of light.
At its best SC is a gamble, you hope you can keep them from expanding but if they do, you are buggered because sensory is defensive rather than offensive. Good luck taking down elec rt without gorge support.
<!--QuoteBegin--Techen+Oct 20 2003, 11:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Techen @ Oct 20 2003, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 20 2003, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2003, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you both need to "face the facts", and that relying on the fact of an incompetant commander as your winning strategy is indeed a lame argument. Assume the best out of oppionents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory is never negated by a good comm, but a bad comm will find its effects overpowering. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sensory is completely negated by a good comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->forlorn- gek just established that this situation would involve the upgrade cloaking - not a sense chamber.... if a skulk is cloaked at any given point on a map, you have no clue where he is. You can guess, but thats a hell of a lot of guessing on big NS maps. Besides, what are you going to do, scan in front of your infantry train, then have them move up 30 feet? lol..... also, with cloak-walk in 2.0, the aliens dont even need to be stationary. You could scan an area, they could wait outside for 6 seconds, then walk in and kill ya. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have the cloaking upgrade? Cool beans, because it will only be good for the first 3 min into the game, by then, I'll have the MT upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have the cloaking upgrade? Cool beans, because it will only be good for the first 3 min into the game, by then, I'll have the MT upgrade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? If I keep ambushing your marines before they get to any good locations so that you are stuck with 2 RTs the entire game, your team will be very mad if you spend all your resource researching Motion Tracking while our second hive is almost done building. No weapon upgrades/armor upgrades, but you have Motion Tracking? Ouch, absolutely terrifying. since you know where I am I guess I'll just have a lerk umbra you as I Leap towards you...
Besides, if you get Motion Tracking, all a cloaked skulk has to do is not move, just like in 1.04. Not THAT big of a deal, as you shouldn't be moving a great deal when you're already in ambush position.
<!--QuoteBegin--gekigarion+Oct 21 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gekigarion @ Oct 21 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have the cloaking upgrade? Cool beans, because it will only be good for the first 3 min into the game, by then, I'll have the MT upgrade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? If I keep ambushing your marines before they get to any good locations so that you are stuck with 2 RTs the entire game, your team will be very mad if you spend all your resource researching Motion Tracking while our second hive is almost done building. No weapon upgrades/armor upgrades, but you have Motion Tracking? Ouch, absolutely terrifying. since you know where I am I guess I'll just have a lerk umbra you as I Leap towards you...
Besides, if you get Motion Tracking, all a cloaked skulk has to do is not move, just like in 1.04. Not THAT big of a deal, as you shouldn't be moving a great deal when you're already in ambush position. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An the alien team will be rolling in res as well, esp. when you must spend tons of res on sensory chambers around the map?
Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP 1 TFac 1 Obs 1 Armory 1 Pack of mines
I'll tell my marines to move out to some nodes, cap an electrify (works wonders against anything but D chambers) them, if they run into a cloaked area, hopefully they won't sustain too many casulties. If they do all die before they can find the S chamber due to skulks killing them all, I build:
1 more IP at base
Then they run back to the same area, I'll use a scanner sweep and take out that area, cap an elec, and move on...
Once I pick up the pace and sensory aliens lose ground, they will never get it back. By the 5 min mark I should be controlling the game, elsewise I'm comming marines who can't aim.
i have been known to build 2 or 3 obs in base just for the extra scans, once a hive is locked down another obs is built and a few minutes later im pretty much got a lot of spare scans available. yes its expensive at 20res a pop per obs but its worth it to have close to a constant supply of scans.
i think one of the real issues here is the alien limitation to get upgrades based on hives. just like in 1.04 we were limited on eveolutions because of the number of hives aliens had.
it would probably take some balancing but imo aliens should be allowed to build all upgrade chambers from the start of the game. and heres why
1.) to drop 3 of each chamber will take 90 res which is very expensive. and aliens wont be able to do this for a while into the game probably towards mid game.
2.) it wont offer a major advantage at 1 hive due to the extra abilities still being hive based.
3.) if the aliens did drop each chamber early it would most likely mean either less res nodes or less early fades/oni.
to balance this out it could be done in a way that at 1 hive you could only take 1 type of upgrade (ie u may have DC + SC + MC but u could only get lvl3 cara OR lvl3 adren not both. Tthen at 2 hives get lvl3 cara AND lvl3 adren. and so on for 3 hives).
this would lead to a more versitile tactics for the aliens. some aliens getting silence at 1 hive some getting carapace and some getting cloaking. it would add more variation on games for the marines also rather than having to face DC->MC->SC aliens everytime. =D
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An the alien team will be rolling in res as well, esp. when you must spend tons of res on sensory chambers around the map?
Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP 1 TFac 1 Obs 1 Armory 1 Pack of mines
I'll tell my marines to move out to some nodes, cap an electrify (works wonders against anything but D chambers) them, if they run into a cloaked area, hopefully they won't sustain too many casulties. If they do all die before they can find the S chamber due to skulks killing them all, I build:
1 more IP at base
Then they run back to the same area, I'll use a scanner sweep and take out that area, cap an elec, and move on...
Once I pick up the pace and sensory aliens lose ground, they will never get it back. By the 5 min mark I should be controlling <a onMouseOver="self.status='http://www.natural-selection.org/the+game';return true;" onMouseOut="self.status=''; return true;" onClick="window.open('http://truth.addnsservices.com/kwin?cl=112M1H9ZSVJO0TPWQ4MHBG3Q1FL8I9EH&kw=the+game','_new', 'toolbar=no,menubar=no,location=no,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes');" href="#">the game</a>, elsewise I'm comming marines who can't aim. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose when the kharaa team sticks down 3 DCs or MCs, they spend less res? How often do you see people go Sensory just to put down ONE sensory tower? It's not hard for say, 3 of the kharaa on the team to gorge while the other 5 or so put a resource tower down.
If you lose your marines at the node because they were ambushed, you can say good-bye to your node as well. That's your 15 res down the drain, alone with another 20 with the cost of your added IP.
There's one more thing: You failed to remember what I said. A good kharaa team will understand how a commander thinks. They will think to themselves: "Alright, the commander will be ready for us to ambush him HERE, so let's ambush him down the hall leading to HERE instead." Secondly, KHARAA DON'T NEED SENSORY CHAMBERS TO CLOAK!!! Stop telling me you're going to kill a Sensory chamber that might not even be there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's quite possible, and you are indeed right. But considering you've spent about 80 resources on your starting base already, I don't think you'll have the res to actually fortify many resources towers. You'll put them down, but unless you can have marines guarding them 24/7, with skulks possibly cloak-walking into the scene, there will be major resistance against your expansion. The only reason Sensory is not good once the marines have expanded is because cloaking doesn't do much against turrets. Against marines, which take two bites to off, that's quite a different story. Even if a comm didn't spend many resources on his starting base though, he'll only be able to secure about one resource node if he's competent, or 2-3 more if he's absolutely excellent, against a kharaa team that understands the true strengths of sensory.
Sorry if I sound a bit rough but it seems you're not reading my posts at all, and I guess I feel unheard in that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i have been known to build 2 or 3 obs in base just for the extra scans, once a hive is locked down another obs is built and a few minutes later im pretty much got a lot of spare scans available. yes its expensive at 20res a pop per obs but its worth it to have close to a constant supply of scans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can have all the scans in the world, but if a kharaa learned cloaking and isn't using a Sensory for cloaking, he can be ANYWHERE on the map. Good luck finding him before he ambushes your marine in a random hall.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think one of the real issues here is the alien limitation to get upgrades based on hives. just like in 1.04 we were limited on eveolutions because of the number of hives aliens had.
it would probably take some balancing but imo aliens should be allowed to build all upgrade chambers from the start of the game. and heres why
1.) to drop 3 of each chamber will take 90 res which is very expensive. and aliens wont be able to do this for a while into the game probably towards mid game.
2.) it wont offer a major advantage at 1 hive due to the extra abilities still being hive based.
3.) if the aliens did drop each chamber early it would most likely mean either less res nodes or less early fades/oni.
to balance this out it could be done in a way that at 1 hive you could only take 1 type of upgrade (ie u may have DC + SC + MC but u could only get lvl3 cara OR lvl3 adren not both. Tthen at 2 hives get lvl3 cara AND lvl3 adren. and so on for 3 hives).
this would lead to a more versitile tactics for the aliens. some aliens getting silence at 1 hive some getting carapace and some getting cloaking. it would add more variation on games for the marines also rather than having to face DC->MC->SC aliens everytime. =D <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do like your intention on this one, but I'm worried about kharaa games with about 9 players on the kharaa side. It would take about 50 seconds for each to gorge and build a chamber each, and then evolve each upgrade. This will cripple the kharaa resource system, but this will actually be a rush, with all three upgrades. The RFK per rush should be enough to re-upgrade every life, and the continious onslaught on the marines will never allow them to move out of base.
And I sure hope that not everyone considers DC the best chamber. There is no best chamber. It depends on how you use each and how much your opponent expects you to use it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can have all the scans in the world, but if a kharaa learned cloaking and isn't using a Sensory for cloaking, he can be ANYWHERE on the map. Good luck finding him before he ambushes your marine in a random hall.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can be anywhere on the map, but keep in mind that you have to be very coordinated not to mention the best way to beat sensory is to have my marines stick in a large group, as aliens will have to cover everywhere and I only have to focus pushing on a couple of res rich area's.
Not to mention the new cloak is cool, now that you can walk, but as soon as you become 5% visible good marines will shoot at you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suppose when the kharaa team sticks down 3 DCs or MCs, they spend less res? How often do you see people go Sensory just to put down ONE sensory tower? It's not hard for say, 3 of the kharaa on the team to gorge while the other 5 or so put a resource tower down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, yes, because sensory chambers require large sensory networks to be effective, which costs mad res.
And I guarentee you that if your entire team rushes nodes at the start of the game you will lose to a good marine team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you lose your marines at the node because they were ambushed, you can say good-bye to your node as well. That's your 15 res down the drain, alone with another 20 with the cost of your added IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of comm drops the node before the area is secure? I'll drop it after it's safe. Once it's up I will electrify it ASAP and the node will stay for a good 7 min.
And if you say you will kill the marines as they build it by cloak walking up to them; again, good marines can see cloak walking aliens.
Not to mention, even if you do kill the rines, I will just sell the node, so I lose llittle to no res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only reason Sensory is not good once the marines have expanded is because cloaking doesn't do much against turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turrets are a real waste of cash in most cases, even against sensory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Against marines, which take two bites to off, that's quite a different story. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor lv. 1 + medspam > skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if a comm didn't spend many resources on his starting base though, he'll only be able to secure about one resource node if he's competent, or 2-3 more if he's absolutely excellent, against a kharaa team that understands the true strengths of sensory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, everytime I see sensory used results in all but 1-3 nodes taken by the marine team.
Comments
Strategic containment - the goal here is to make the map generally hostile to marine movement. Sensory and ambushes excel in this regard.
Tactical containment - the goal here is to prevent the marines from passing a certain chokepoint, or reaching a certain destination. Sensory and ambushes suck it in this regard.
Here's the deal. Let's say each team has P number of players.
If the alien team is holed up in one chokepoint, the pending skirmish is P against P-1 (rines - comm) players. However, since the aliens are all bunched up together, one scanner sweep removes the SC advantage.
If the alien team is spread out across N choke points, then SCs once again become useful, but the pending skirmish is now P/N against P-1.
So let's say the aliens are doing absolutely nothing but setting up ambushes in 4 (random, moving) locations, and the game is 12 v 12. Each time the rines get ambushed, it's 11 marines vs 3 aliens. Cloaked or no, the aliens are going to get steamrolled.
Anyway, 3 good skulks will kill at least 4 of those 11 marines- which is a ratio id glady take- since it removes 4 marines from a foward position, a position that the alien can quickly return to.
Besides, when does the entire marine team go to one WP? Usually successful marine teams employ smaller squads to go carry out missions, unless its a game critical mission- (taking a hive, etc)
Eggzachary.
There seems to be a general pattern of counters.
Aliens open with fast expansion.
Marines counter with slash-and-burn.
Aliens counter with strategic containment.
Marines counter by moving en mass to a critical location and securing it.
Aliens counter by assaulting the MS or the outpost.
So, yes, strategic containment will shut down slash and burn. But strategic containment is countered by the marines moving in a large group and turtling in a key location (hive or double res). Once the marines no longer need to move around the map, what are the aliens going to do? Ambush each other?
It doesn't require SCs, as hiding in the rafters and waiting is only one way of doing it.
Using active scouts, parasite, and skulk mobility to respond to marine movement is another. If the team takes this approach, they'd be better served by MCs (for silence and celerity) or DCs (for raw combat capability).
Tactical containment - the goal here is to prevent the marines from passing a certain chokepoint, or reaching a certain destination. Sensory and ambushes suck it in this regard. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you ment it to sound like this, but if Strategic containment is to use ambushes across the map to prevent general marine expantion, and Tactical containment is defending a certin locations with ambushes. Then wouldn't Tactical containment be a sub group of strategic containment. And thus, if sensory is good at the main, it is also good at all of its sub groups. After all, you seem to make it sound like strategic is seting up ambushes at multipule locations, while tactical is setting up ambushes at a single location.
I'm not saying this because I believe in sensory chambers first, or because I believe in defence chambers first. I use to believe in movement chambers first, but then I wised up. Now I believe in what ever chamber is best for the use against the tactic that the marines are using. True the marine can adapt, but that takes time. Build orders are changed, resources are moved around, marine locations and engagement rules change. The command is not siting on a switch that says "hit if aliens are using chamber X". The commander is siting on tons of switchs that each do little things. I pick what ever chamber forces him to flip the most switchs....
You call out people for being irrational sc supporters, yet you post constant manure like this:
"It's embarrasing really. The majority of people who likes sensory first are n00bs of the worst kind, who's contributions to the forum are usually badly spelled inane statements that are either blatantly obvious or horibly inaccurate, the rest are just not able to process the information given to them, or basing their opinins on how he managed to beat Larry, the retarded sloth and his pet rat on some obscure server."
then you proceed to tell us about how you had this awesome game and you came back and beat sensory.
The simple truth is, its very hard to beat a organized team of cloaked skulks. Say they throw up a sc early on eclipse, a couple of them upgrade cloaking, and wait in the halls outside the marine base. Oh right, youll say the comm can just comsat, but first off, does he really know where to comsat before the marines are attacked? No. And if he does afterwards, the marines have already been killed. If the aliens are good, theyll switch up their ambush points. Theres no way to comsat every time a train of marines walks to a point on the map- sure you can comsat once they reach that point( say a hive they're trying to lock down) but thats the point- they dont get there- since a good alien team will hit them on the way there. Also, the fact that SC is bad at taking defended marine posts is irrelevent, since a GOOD alien team will contain the marine team around their base and allow them very few res nodes. The sc argument is by no means "debunked", perhaps in your head you've already dimissed it, but that doesnt mean its bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Yes, YES. I always wondered what people thought to this, because every time I said this in a Sensory debate thread, nobody responded and the thread died.
Basically, to sum it up, people are complaining that Sensory is weak as heck because you can't fight a two hive lockdown.
But they never seem to ask this: If you chose Sensory, how the heck the marines get two hives??? Sensory is THE anti-marine expansion chamber, unlike DC, which is offensive (Interestingly enough), and the MC, which is also offensive.
The way you use Sensory is being flexible and having teamwork. Ambush them where they don't expect to get ambushed and you'll be fine. If you put a Sensory in double node and wait for them there, they'll be expecting an ambush. If you put a Sensory somewhere in the hallways towards double node, BANG, they're gone.
People say obs COMPLETELY negates Sensory. Maybe if you put them side by side, yes, but otherwise the Obs has to scan every little inch of the map, and I rarely see comms with enough obs to do that.
All in all, MCs have their points, people only odn't like them because of the chamber itself and not its upgrades, the DCs have their points, and the SCs do too. Flayra added cloaked walking not because Sensory was absolutely useless, but because the skill of Cloaking was absolutely terrible to what the chamber could do. Letting you move slowly with cloak allows you to move around and not have to use a DC everywhere.
In your example of why marines would push out and conquer you:
They scan cloak infested area. Aliens are all revealed, marines walk in, slughter and any skulks, and kill the chamber. Wash rinse repeat. You are screwed out of a chamber, but more importantly, the marines will take that locale, such as a res node, a hive, or something else vitally important.
It happens, EVERY, SINGLE, GAME that sensory is used!!!
Not so much, no.
If the entire alien team is bunched up at a chokepoint, then their cloaking can be negated with a single scan.
Let's take a simplest-possible-case. Pretend you're playing on a map that's a giant figure-8. Aliens are at the top, marines at the bottom.
aliens
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>8</span>
marines
The only location where the aliens can ambush with 100% of their forces, and with 100% certainty of catching the marines, is at the very center. Since the marine commander knows this, it's trivial to scan there, and negate the benefit of SCs.
The aliens can mass-ambush at one of the 4 legs that make up the internal X of the map, but then there's a 50% chance the marines might bypass the ambush. The aliens can split their forces between two of the legs, but then both alien groups are at 50% effectiveness.
In actual NS maps, the aliens would need to camp far more than two passages to lock the marines out of all possible interesting map areas.
"They scan cloak infested area. Aliens are all revealed, marines walk in, slughter and any skulks, and kill the chamber. Wash rinse repeat. You are screwed out of a chamber, but more importantly, the marines will take that locale, such as a res node, a hive, or something else vitally important."
Cloak infested area? Where is the cloak infested area? Pretend your the comm. I need direction sir! Could you please direct me to the " CLOAK INFESTED AREA".
HEY SHERLOCK, NO **** CLOAKING SUCKS if the aliens stand in one room and stay there the whole game. That's like me saying carapace sucks because if the alien just stands still, the marines will shoot it and kill it, regardless of armor.
I think a lot of people on the thread just need to play some more games as marines against SC with good aliens- to truly experience the pain of a cloaked alien team, especially on a pub server.
I am here to say that when aliens throw up a SC early on, and I am comm it puts me on the defensive, all of a sudden, my upggrades stop, I am forced to ping every hallway, I am forced to put down obs all over the place, and I am forced to spend time and res trying to counter the sc, that I dont even notice when something gets taken down.
EDIT: I FREAKING HATE SC FIRST AS COMM!!!!!!
Indeed as do I, it makes the games too easy to win.
C'mon forlorn, where's your sense of competition? You didn't even reply to Bugler's argument against you. I don't think that means you gave up, seeing this quote I just stuck here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They scan cloak infested area.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the heck would you need to scan the cloak infested area if you obviously knew where the cloaked kharaa were? That means you could see them already, and that means you didn't need to scan it.
It seems that even though Flayra has added the "cloak walk", everyone still believes that if you use a Sensory chamber, you must stick near it to be dangerous. Nuh-uh. Not anymore. If a skulk that learned cloaking (Yep, they do that in 2.01) hid in some random hall that your marines just happened to pass by, would you jerk out of your comm chair and go "DONT GO THERE THERE"S A SKULK I KNOW IT BECAUSE I AM PSYHCIC11"?
....I don't think so. You'd have to scan the area to know a skulk was there. And why would you scan the area...if you didn't know the skulk was there? And if you did know that the skulk was there, how? You obviously didn't scan it to find the skulk, because that would mean you already knew where he was and had no need to scan. Therefore, the thing here is this: Cloaking is never completely counterable unless you can always keep the entire map pinged or have observatories in every single room.
Well, while I'm at it, I'll stick in my other argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only location where the aliens can ambush with 100% of their forces, and with 100% certainty of catching the marines, is at the very center. Since the marine commander knows this, it's trivial to scan there, and negate the benefit of SCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just like you say that a good comm will know that the kharaa want to protect an important area, good kharaa will also know that the good commander knows that. Therefore, why would they prepare to ambush marines in a spot they knew would be scanned? Here's the answer: They won't. They'll stick in hallways, next to your buildings, anywhere that the commander WON'T expect. That's if they're good.
HEY SHERLOCK, NO **** CLOAKING SUCKS if the aliens stand in one room and stay there the whole game. That's like me saying carapace sucks because if the alien just stands still, the marines will shoot it and kill it, regardless of armor.
I think a lot of people on the thread just need to play some more games as marines against SC with good aliens- to truly experience the pain of a cloaked alien team, especially on a pub server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, I've played more games with sensory than you have played NS, I'd wager.
Anyhow. You don't build sensory chambers in hallways, because marines will stumble on them and destroy them.
Therefore, sensory chambers must be built in open area's to hide them, or in vents over open area's or something like that.
I challenge you to name any area you can protect with a sensory chamber and where I can't find it as a comm.
I just scan once, twice, and POOF goes the chamber. I will find it, and my marines will kill it.
It's incredably simple.
And just to let you know, scan's affect roughly 1.5 times the area's a sensory chamber can cover with cloak. I can say I've never missed uncovering a sensory chamber.
*ahem* Anyhow. I didn't mention anything about building sensory chambers in hallways. The upgrade cloaking, with its ability to cloak walk, should compensate enough for that.'
Unlike what seems to be popular, just because you have Sensory Chambers to cloak you doesn't mean you don't need cloaking. Just like just because movement chambers give you energy doesn't mean you don't need adrenaline.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just scan once, twice, and POOF goes the chamber. I will find it, and my marines will kill it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know many comms that know how to scan once, twice, and somehow find my kharaa that wasn't in the double node, but sitting a little past the entrance where they didn't expect me.
Lately i'v noticed as a gorge that OC's really come into there own early and mid game with a sensory. You drop one sensory in an area and then spread out numerous OC's.
Never make a wall with them, that way your OC's protect each other and marines don't find them all easily. My last game two OC's and a sensory took out no less then 8 marines over time. Sure it probibly didn't pay for itself (30 Rez is a lot) But it denied an area so well that it was worth the cost. (At Mid game I did drop 1 DC into the mix.)
Before people say things like, "Well a good commander.." lets face the facts. There are not that many good commanders, there are not that many truely good players. If you as a commander could easily counter this, then great. But the fact of the matter was the comm in my example didn't know how many chambers I actually dropped and was busy securing other area's. It wasn't until late game when the Heavies walked threw that those OC's were lost.
Sen. makes OC's into killers, Def. makes them into walls.
Sen. makes OC's into killers, Def. makes them into walls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know many comms that know how to scan once, twice, and somehow find my kharaa that wasn't in the double node, but sitting a little past the entrance where they didn't expect me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you both need to "face the facts", and that relying on the fact of an incompetant commander as your winning strategy is indeed a lame argument. Assume the best out of oppionents.
Its not that we need bad commanders. Its just the fact that when people talk about sensories there effectivness is dependent on when it is dropped and how apt the commander is at countering it.
Sensory is never negated by a good comm, but a bad comm will find its effects overpowering.
I just get sick and tired of hearing people say things like, "Oh sensory first. It sucks, all you need is a good commander ..." I just wish people would, "Face the Facts", and relying on a good commander as a counter strategy for sensory is a lame argument. Assume the best out of opponents.
forlorn- gek just established that this situation would involve the upgrade cloaking - not a sense chamber.... if a skulk is cloaked at any given point on a map, you have no clue where he is. You can guess, but thats a hell of a lot of guessing on big NS maps. Besides, what are you going to do, scan in front of your infantry train, then have them move up 30 feet? lol..... also, with cloak-walk in 2.0, the aliens dont even need to be stationary. You could scan an area, they could wait outside for 6 seconds, then walk in and kill ya.
All the comm has to do is rely on your inability to attack, base is pretty safe bcause their should be an obs there anyway; So the secures some important area with an obs and the upgrades you get from an obs entirely negate the ambush tactics. MT you will see the ambush coming, PG, screw the ambush just travel by at the speed of light.
At its best SC is a gamble, you hope you can keep them from expanding but if they do, you are buggered because sensory is defensive rather than offensive. Good luck taking down elec rt without gorge support.
Sensory is never negated by a good comm, but a bad comm will find its effects overpowering. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory is completely negated by a good comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->forlorn- gek just established that this situation would involve the upgrade cloaking - not a sense chamber.... if a skulk is cloaked at any given point on a map, you have no clue where he is. You can guess, but thats a hell of a lot of guessing on big NS maps. Besides, what are you going to do, scan in front of your infantry train, then have them move up 30 feet? lol..... also, with cloak-walk in 2.0, the aliens dont even need to be stationary. You could scan an area, they could wait outside for 6 seconds, then walk in and kill ya. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have the cloaking upgrade? Cool beans, because it will only be good for the first 3 min into the game, by then, I'll have the MT upgrade.
Really? If I keep ambushing your marines before they get to any good locations so that you are stuck with 2 RTs the entire game, your team will be very mad if you spend all your resource researching Motion Tracking while our second hive is almost done building. No weapon upgrades/armor upgrades, but you have Motion Tracking? Ouch, absolutely terrifying. since you know where I am I guess I'll just have a lerk umbra you as I Leap towards you...
Besides, if you get Motion Tracking, all a cloaked skulk has to do is not move, just like in 1.04. Not THAT big of a deal, as you shouldn't be moving a great deal when you're already in ambush position.
Really? If I keep ambushing your marines before they get to any good locations so that you are stuck with 2 RTs the entire game, your team will be very mad if you spend all your resource researching Motion Tracking while our second hive is almost done building. No weapon upgrades/armor upgrades, but you have Motion Tracking? Ouch, absolutely terrifying. since you know where I am I guess I'll just have a lerk umbra you as I Leap towards you...
Besides, if you get Motion Tracking, all a cloaked skulk has to do is not move, just like in 1.04. Not THAT big of a deal, as you shouldn't be moving a great deal when you're already in ambush position. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An the alien team will be rolling in res as well, esp. when you must spend tons of res on sensory chambers around the map?
Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP
1 TFac
1 Obs
1 Armory
1 Pack of mines
I'll tell my marines to move out to some nodes, cap an electrify (works wonders against anything but D chambers) them, if they run into a cloaked area, hopefully they won't sustain too many casulties. If they do all die before they can find the S chamber due to skulks killing them all, I build:
1 more IP at base
Then they run back to the same area, I'll use a scanner sweep and take out that area, cap an elec, and move on...
Once I pick up the pace and sensory aliens lose ground, they will never get it back. By the 5 min mark I should be controlling the game, elsewise I'm comming marines who can't aim.
marines upgrade limitations? res only.
alien upgrade limitations ? hive based.
it would probably take some balancing but imo aliens should be allowed to build all upgrade chambers from the start of the game. and heres why
1.) to drop 3 of each chamber will take 90 res which is very expensive. and aliens wont be able to do this for a while into the game probably towards mid game.
2.) it wont offer a major advantage at 1 hive due to the extra abilities still being hive based.
3.) if the aliens did drop each chamber early it would most likely mean either less res nodes or less early fades/oni.
to balance this out it could be done in a way that at 1 hive you could only take 1 type of upgrade (ie u may have DC + SC + MC but u could only get lvl3 cara OR lvl3 adren not both. Tthen at 2 hives get lvl3 cara AND lvl3 adren. and so on for 3 hives).
this would lead to a more versitile tactics for the aliens. some aliens getting silence at 1 hive some getting carapace and some getting cloaking. it would add more variation on games for the marines also rather than having to face DC->MC->SC aliens everytime. =D
Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
Here's the build order(build them all close together):
1 IP
1 TFac
1 Obs
1 Armory
1 Pack of mines
I'll tell my marines to move out to some nodes, cap an electrify (works wonders against anything but D chambers) them, if they run into a cloaked area, hopefully they won't sustain too many casulties. If they do all die before they can find the S chamber due to skulks killing them all, I build:
1 more IP at base
Then they run back to the same area, I'll use a scanner sweep and take out that area, cap an elec, and move on...
Once I pick up the pace and sensory aliens lose ground, they will never get it back. By the 5 min mark I should be controlling <a onMouseOver="self.status='http://www.natural-selection.org/the+game';return true;" onMouseOut="self.status=''; return true;" onClick="window.open('http://truth.addnsservices.com/kwin?cl=112M1H9ZSVJO0TPWQ4MHBG3Q1FL8I9EH&kw=the+game','_new', 'toolbar=no,menubar=no,location=no,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes');" href="#">the game</a>, elsewise I'm comming marines who can't aim. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose when the kharaa team sticks down 3 DCs or MCs, they spend less res? How often do you see people go Sensory just to put down ONE sensory tower? It's not hard for say, 3 of the kharaa on the team to gorge while the other 5 or so put a resource tower down.
If you lose your marines at the node because they were ambushed, you can say good-bye to your node as well. That's your 15 res down the drain, alone with another 20 with the cost of your added IP.
There's one more thing: You failed to remember what I said. A good kharaa team will understand how a commander thinks. They will think to themselves: "Alright, the commander will be ready for us to ambush him HERE, so let's ambush him down the hall leading to HERE instead." Secondly, KHARAA DON'T NEED SENSORY CHAMBERS TO CLOAK!!! Stop telling me you're going to kill a Sensory chamber that might not even be there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention, I can still take area's from you before you get up 3 sensory chambers...
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That's quite possible, and you are indeed right. But considering you've spent about 80 resources on your starting base already, I don't think you'll have the res to actually fortify many resources towers. You'll put them down, but unless you can have marines guarding them 24/7, with skulks possibly cloak-walking into the scene, there will be major resistance against your expansion. The only reason Sensory is not good once the marines have expanded is because cloaking doesn't do much against turrets. Against marines, which take two bites to off, that's quite a different story. Even if a comm didn't spend many resources on his starting base though, he'll only be able to secure about one resource node if he's competent, or 2-3 more if he's absolutely excellent, against a kharaa team that understands the true strengths of sensory.
Sorry if I sound a bit rough but it seems you're not reading my posts at all, and I guess I feel unheard in that way.
You can have all the scans in the world, but if a kharaa learned cloaking and isn't using a Sensory for cloaking, he can be ANYWHERE on the map. Good luck finding him before he ambushes your marine in a random hall.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think one of the real issues here is the alien limitation to get upgrades based on hives. just like in 1.04 we were limited on eveolutions because of the number of hives aliens had.
marines upgrade limitations? res only.
alien upgrade limitations ? hive based.
it would probably take some balancing but imo aliens should be allowed to build all upgrade chambers from the start of the game. and heres why
1.) to drop 3 of each chamber will take 90 res which is very expensive. and aliens wont be able to do this for a while into the game probably towards mid game.
2.) it wont offer a major advantage at 1 hive due to the extra abilities still being hive based.
3.) if the aliens did drop each chamber early it would most likely mean either less res nodes or less early fades/oni.
to balance this out it could be done in a way that at 1 hive you could only take 1 type of upgrade (ie u may have DC + SC + MC but u could only get lvl3 cara OR lvl3 adren not both. Tthen at 2 hives get lvl3 cara AND lvl3 adren. and so on for 3 hives).
this would lead to a more versitile tactics for the aliens. some aliens getting silence at 1 hive some getting carapace and some getting cloaking. it would add more variation on games for the marines also rather than having to face DC->MC->SC aliens everytime. =D <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do like your intention on this one, but I'm worried about kharaa games with about 9 players on the kharaa side. It would take about 50 seconds for each to gorge and build a chamber each, and then evolve each upgrade. This will cripple the kharaa resource system, but this will actually be a rush, with all three upgrades. The RFK per rush should be enough to re-upgrade every life, and the continious onslaught on the marines will never allow them to move out of base.
And I sure hope that not everyone considers DC the best chamber. There is no best chamber. It depends on how you use each and how much your opponent expects you to use it.
You can be anywhere on the map, but keep in mind that you have to be very coordinated not to mention the best way to beat sensory is to have my marines stick in a large group, as aliens will have to cover everywhere and I only have to focus pushing on a couple of res rich area's.
Not to mention the new cloak is cool, now that you can walk, but as soon as you become 5% visible good marines will shoot at you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suppose when the kharaa team sticks down 3 DCs or MCs, they spend less res? How often do you see people go Sensory just to put down ONE sensory tower? It's not hard for say, 3 of the kharaa on the team to gorge while the other 5 or so put a resource tower down.
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Actually, yes, because sensory chambers require large sensory networks to be effective, which costs mad res.
And I guarentee you that if your entire team rushes nodes at the start of the game you will lose to a good marine team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you lose your marines at the node because they were ambushed, you can say good-bye to your node as well. That's your 15 res down the drain, alone with another 20 with the cost of your added IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of comm drops the node before the area is secure? I'll drop it after it's safe. Once it's up I will electrify it ASAP and the node will stay for a good 7 min.
And if you say you will kill the marines as they build it by cloak walking up to them; again, good marines can see cloak walking aliens.
Not to mention, even if you do kill the rines, I will just sell the node, so I lose llittle to no res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only reason Sensory is not good once the marines have expanded is because cloaking doesn't do much against turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turrets are a real waste of cash in most cases, even against sensory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Against marines, which take two bites to off, that's quite a different story. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor lv. 1 + medspam > skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if a comm didn't spend many resources on his starting base though, he'll only be able to secure about one resource node if he's competent, or 2-3 more if he's absolutely excellent, against a kharaa team that understands the true strengths of sensory.
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Funny, everytime I see sensory used results in all but 1-3 nodes taken by the marine team.